August 04 - Just Breathe: Parenting Your LGBTQ Teen - Full - White Rec

Welcome to Just Breathe: Parenting Your LGBTQ Teen. My name is Heather Hester, and I am excited to be with you to transform the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child. Wherever you are on this journey right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone. So today is an exciting day. It's a day I've been teasing to all of you for a few weeks now. We get to have an episode— actually, we have 3 upcoming episodes with Connor, and he has graciously and wonderfully agreed to do some episodes with me to really talk about his journey and to really give us an idea from his perspective and his experience what his journey has looked like. And I will respond as well, but it's really going to flow not so much in a question-answer format, but with Connor just really sharing with all of you what the past few years have looked like and felt like and been like for him. So without further ado, Connor, my wonderful, wonderful son, is back with us today.

All right, well Thank you so much for having me back. And, you know, excited to talk about this. I know we've been trying to figure this out for a minute now, so glad it finally worked out. So I guess just, you know, the way, the way we segmented it is, you know, first we're kind of going to go into depth on kind of my initial experience coming out I mean, I guess you could still consider me in my initial part of coming out, but like the very, very beginning. So I guess, you know, I sort of start with, you know, I didn't really have— I mean, I guess I kind of had an idea that I was gay, but like I wasn't really able to accept the fact that I was gay until probably I would say like my, like the beginning of my sophomore year, which was what, 1, 2, 3, how many years? Like 4 years ago, 3 years ago?

4 years ago.

4 years ago. Goodness, my math is terrible. Yeah, so 4 years ago is when I kind of, you know, that's when I first came out. And I think it was pretty much up until like I came out that I was kind of like on the fence about like, do I do it? Do I not? You know, I think there was a ton of fear around it given the fact that, you know, the environment that I lived in, the school that I went to, New Trier being such a toxic place for any minority. But, you know, the thought of being gay and the thought of like, oh my God, I could lose all my friends. You know, no one's gonna wanna talk to me. No one's gonna wanna mess around with me 'cause I'm the gay kid, you know? No one wants that. So there was a lot of fear surrounding that, I think, and a lot of just kind of like internalized homophobia as a result, kind of up until I came out. And that was just, you know, entirely out of fear. I think there's a lot of like precipitating factors that led to me coming out. You know, it was a mix of like kind of just realizing like, okay, I can't really pretend to be straight anymore. This is exhausting and so mentally taxing. And you know, just kind of like the internal— oh my gosh, what's the word— dissonance that, you know, is kind of experienced. Like it just be, you know, it grew stronger and stronger, that like contrast between who I was expressing myself on the outside versus how I felt on the inside. And that's kind of a common theme. But you know, eventually just kind of reached a point where I had the first person I told was my best friend at the time, Maddie. And so that was like a huge step for me to be able to like admit it to one person. Like, I remember how, you know, I remember that moment. We were parked in front of the middle school that we went to, like the winter of my sophomore year, and kind of just told her all of a sudden. And, you know, it was probably like at the time that was like the scariest thing I'd ever experienced because, you know, I knew that she was a great person and that, you know, we were really close. But like there is still that fear of like, well, what if, what if she decides that she is, you know, she's, she is homophobic or whatever, be friends with me anymore. So that was scary, but, you know, she received me received the news very well, as I guess could have been expected. But after that, I started telling people who were kind of really close to me and who I considered close friends. And it got easier every time. And I started to become more comfortable with the fact that like, no, this isn't something that's wrong with me. This is just a fact of the matter. I'm gay and that's not going to change. And Furthermore, I'm not gonna change myself in terms of like I'm not gonna put a front up because it's exhausting. So then eventually, I guess the story is kind of convoluted with, never convoluted, but like kind of messy with how I came out to my parents. And you guys all know, I'm sure you all know the backstory from my mom about how I came out to them. But I guess just like the similar fear of like fear of rejection, fear of like, what if they judge me? Like obviously it was a different scenario because it's my parents and not just some random homophobic kid. So it was like this, you know, if they don't accept me for whatever reason, that could be major. And I also just like, you know, being a 16-year-old No one really wants to be like sharing their deepest, darkest secrets with their parents, like at all. So there were a lot of layers and a lot of reasons why I was hesitant to tell them. But it was never something like they were outwardly presenting as like homophobic or like hateful by any means. It was just, there was, I think they didn't really have an inkling yet So I was just kind of like, I knew it'd be something that would probably blindside them. So when I did, you know, it, as you know the story, it's a little messy, but I think it was kind of necessary. Like it, I don't know how long after that I would have come out. Like basically, you know, by being forced to do it or not forced to do it, but by like, you know, kind of just falling out, it works better, worked in my favor. Because it kind of just got it out in the open. It was, you know, pulling the band-aid off. Um, but it was like, you know, it was an incredibly vulnerable place and like an incredibly vulnerable position to be in to try to like tell my parents that and like, you know, just kind of hope that like they'll accept me for who I am. And like, you know, and it— they, you know, took it in stride. You guys, like, I entirely want to give them credit for that. You know, it was— even though it was something that was obviously shocking It was never a moment of like, "Well, that's not okay," or "We don't accept that," or "We don't love you still." Like it was made clear from the get-go that like that was never something that had gone through their minds. But yeah, so I think that was like a big hurdle kind of like initially coming out to everyone, coming out to my parents, 'cause then when it came out to my parents, it was like, okay, I have like, at the time, like I have like my core support system or who I saw as my core support system. They all know and it's not something that I necessarily have to like keep from everyone anymore. And I think it was kind of like then and I started like that spring of sophomore year that I kind of gave up on that whole like trying to be straight presenting and kind of just started like I guess exploring the world of homosexuality for lack of better terminology. Basically the way I went about exploring and discovering was very much, you know, on my own terms and entirely on my own kind of discovery. Without going into too much detail, you know, the internet is an amazing thing and, you know, I think we all know that. But like I had kind of even before I came out, like had kind of found these apps and these forums and these websites and whatever and found, you know, some people and that I guess had similar interests. I don't know how to say that properly, but, you know, basically I was able to kind of experiment and figure out what I liked and what I didn't like. And it was— but it was like very much I was throwing myself headfirst into this world that like I knew nothing about. But you know, I wanted to. And like the feeling I got from like having all this freedom was so like addicting and so like empowering to be like, you know, one, I'm fully in charge and I get to choose, create this persona of who I wanted, who I saw myself as being a gay man, or I guess gay teenager at the time. Which like, I guess, like context on that, like up until I came out, you know, I, the way I kind of saw myself and I feel like others kind of saw me was, you know, oldest of four, so, you know, like mature and, you know, I'm relatively well-spoken and, you know, I care a lot about school and just kind of like this very I don't know, just good kid kind of persona kind of figure, whatever. And I really didn't like that. And I, you know, I liked doing well in school and I liked, you know, being able to articulate my thoughts. But like being seen as that by my peers was not something I wanted. And so once I had kind of come out, or once I'd come out and I started exploring and started kind of doing all that, it kind of gave me the sense of like, it was empowering, you know, like I had this freedom now. But like also I was doing things and having experiences and like taking risks that I know for a fact that no one else in my school, no one, none of my friends, no one in my grade, no one was doing that. So I felt like a total badass now. And so it was kind of like this like shift in persona from like good kid to like this total quote-unquote badass who kind of did whatever he wanted.

No, I think that's, that's really accurate and good. And, and important to note too that you were able to do it while keeping the other persona intact, right?

Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, I think that was, yeah, that was like a big part of first being out was like, you know, because I presented this whatever badass, bad kid, whatever persona to my friends, and that's how I kind of like saw myself internally. But then on the outside to my parents and to like adults and just like to the general public, I guess, I still kind of presented myself as 'Well, no, I'm still this good kid. There's nothing wrong here,' I guess. Like, that was— that's the best way of putting it. Like, I'm fine. And I guess that, you know, that continued to be the case where I was able to kind of, you know, I guess for the next couple months, like, I was totally able to keep who I was internally, like this, you know, whatever badass persona, keep that separate from who I was externally. And I continued, yeah, like that continued to be the case throughout most of the summer or like the following months. So I guess, you know, really up until I want to say, you know, like 6 or 7 months later that things kind of started, I guess, just becoming harder. I wasn't able to sneak around as easily. My parents had started kind of getting inklings of, oh, you know, like just kind of some more suspicious behavior, the online community that I was able to find— I mean, I guess, you know, that's the great thing about the internet. There's something out there for everyone and lots of niche corners of the internet. And, you know, I'm not gonna say the community that I found was necessarily a good influence or a positive influence, but it still kind of like fulfilled the needs that I decided that I had at the time. You know, whether that was for the greatest good, probably not, but you know, it served a purpose for that time. The gay community at my high school was very— especially when I was like sophomore, it was very small and there was definitely a stigma surrounding it in terms of like the gay kids, you know, like they're the, you know, they're very feminine and, you know, they're only friends with girls, they're probably in theater. Like there was this whole, like, I guess demographic for how it was kind of like, you know, you fit into this whatever. I guess I was very self-conscious. I think that's the best way to put it. Like I was still very self-conscious about how people perceived me and was so obsessed like with controlling how people you know, perceive me, that I never really engaged with that community that I had available to me in person at school because I couldn't really get over the fact that like then I would be associated with these people. And you know, it just like, it was putting myself out there in a way that I didn't feel comfortable yet. However, the internet, having an online community, and I wouldn't really call I guess it would be a community, but like being able to entirely control how people perceived me online, you know, you have— you can hide behind a profile, you know, just take like one good picture and then I could create exactly how people perceived me. And I could be, you know, I— in hiding behind a screen, there was a lot more that like I felt comfortable expressing. There was a lot less like inhibition surrounding it. I don't know if that's the right word, but like it was much more uninhibited. And I think, you know, just on top of that, like, yeah, like just like the feeling of like, you know, I think most people can relate, like when you're online and you feel like you have that sense of like protection and anonymity, um, to a degree, like you just, I feel like you're much more prone to just feel like, at least I know for me, I felt like I was, I could do a lot more, could get away with a lot more, could say a lot more, like, because I was behind the screen and because no one could like know, oh, that's Connor Hester, you know, from New Trier. Um, that wasn't something I had to worry about.

That makes a ton of sense.

Absolutely. Therapy, as you had said, is something that, you know, has played an increasingly important role in my journey, uh, if you want to call it a journey. Uh, but the way that I had kind of viewed it originally, before I kind of had a really good understanding of what was going on inside my head, for lack of better terms, like I didn't really see— I saw it as kind of like, okay, my parents are making me go to this, so I'm going to go to it so they don't get mad. And then they're off my back, right? So, and at first it really wasn't much more than that. I was, you know, the first— the first two therapists that I met with, there was no— like, I didn't really have an appreciation for what therapy could be and what it could do for me. I was much more interested in kind of just having my needs at the time met. So that was, you know, appeasing my parents and trying to seem like I was totally unproblematic and everything was fine. So with my first therapist, and I'd seen her for what, I think it was probably like 4 or 5 months.

That's right.

Okay. Um, yeah, and I would say 90% of the time was just making up total lies about what was going on, or like kind of, you know, paralleling what I was experiencing if I was really struggling with something, I would kind of create like a hypothetical, like parallel to like, oh, well, I, you know, I met this guy at school, right. And, you know, he did this. So like, what do you think I should— like, there was a seed, an ounce of truth in what I was saying, but like, it was still, it was very much just like showing up every week to get to check a box, basically. And I mean, so obviously it really didn't help me much at that point. I don't really remember like what point we decided to switch therapists.

Um, it was after your jaw surgery, right?

Right.

So I would say probably in August.

Okay.

Early September, maybe, um, after you'd recovered.

Right.

And started your junior year. That's when we switched.

Right, right, right. Yeah. And I mean, at that point, still like switching, I was kind of like, okay, great. You know, like, I'll try to give it like a whole, you know, a good college try, uh, this time. And it was just kind of like unfortunate that, you know, it was a lovely old woman. She was very nice, but there was nothing about that that made me want to like suddenly pour out all my secrets to her. Like, it was very much the same scenario of Yeah, you know, I'm doing fine. I'm a little depressed. She was actually the one, though, that had told me that, like, you know, used her little DSM-5 book and had told me that I have severe and chronic depression.

Yes.

And like, kind of just like dropped that. And then that was that. Really didn't address that too much other than telling me, you know, FYI. Right. Yeah. Which is great. And I think, you know, it was about a session after that We had our lovely family therapy session, um, with lots of, lots of revelations and stuff. So the, I guess, like the most, the most significant therapy session I had with this woman, and I would, you know, I say significant just because it's the only one that really sticks in my mind, um, and I guess a little like background on it First, so it was a family therapy session set up by my parents. I was notified of this the day of the session, so I was kind of like, okay, red flag. But like, I'm so mentally like not there at that point.

Like, and really quickly, I don't mean to interrupt because you're on a good— but I think that, um, it would be really great if you could give a just a bit more background on where you were mentally at this point and why, why you were there, or why you feel like you were there at that time, because I think that's a very important part of your, your story.

Yeah, um, I mean, I think again, without going into like gory detail, um, you know, just the freedom that I had been experiencing, experimenting with, and the situations I was getting into, the people I was coming into contact with, like it was still very much like this exciting, like, yes, I'm gay. Yes, this is what I can do. My parents have no idea. I feel like such a badass. Like that was still all very much like what I was telling myself. But as the months passed by, it was like late summer, early fall. That my parents started catching on. So I was like, there was definitely a ton of stress surrounding that. Like, you know, my parents are gonna catch me and I don't know what's gonna happen if they do. Um, but then on top of that, there, you know, there were some situations that I had gotten myself into and some specific people that I had gotten involved with that, you know, it would basically like, as a 16-year-old I was in way over my head without, you know, for lack of better wording, like I kind of just, I bit off more than I could chew. Um, and I didn't know how to deal with that. And that was kind of, I think, what started playing into the whole mental decline where before it was the like split, like the two lives of like I'm, you know, internally I'm like this, you know, this badass and I'm like, you know, exploring and discovering and being free and doing all that. And the inside and the outside was kind of like— the outside was like, you know, I'm fine, I'm doing well in school, I am whatever, like I'm just this innocent kid. But that just like, that became harder and harder because now on the inside I was feeling much more like What the heck? What do I do?

I don't know.

And on top of that, just like feeling so like the situations I got myself into, I had— I didn't know who I could go to because I just— I couldn't tell my parents. But like, I also just like, you know, I could tell my friends, but what were they going to do? So I got to just this point of like on the outside I had to present as like totally fine. I'm just, it's my junior year of high school. I have to do well in school. But on the inside, I was just totally lost, totally scared, totally freaking out. Just really had no idea what to do. But I was still very intent on like, okay, I'll figure this out on my own. It'll resolve itself. This is brutal. This sucks, but it is what it is. So I guess very long-winded background, but basically that's where I was mentally. Like I was very, draw it already. Um, but you know, the one thing that I was like, okay, at the very least my parents don't know about this, so I'm like not gonna get in trouble for this.

Right, right. And I think this is actually a quick— a good place. I'm just going to jump in really quickly so this part kind of flows together for all— for everyone. Um, so I love that you're getting Connor's where Connor was at this point, because where we were was this place of, you know, we were in like hyper-speed learning mode, and we had been, you know, just trying to learn, trying to, you know, how do we best support him. And, and I will tell you, he's not kidding when he tells you that he was, you know, presenting one way on the outside and feeling something totally different on the inside. He was masterful at this. We had initially no idea. Now, as the summer went on and he had jaw surgery and was recovering from that, I started getting— I just had this sick feeling in my stomach. I knew something was going on. I could not put my finger on it. I knew, you know, he just was not Connor. He was not my Connor. And In August, once he had, you know, started recovering really well from surgery, I had caught him sneaking out, which was— I'd never, you know, done before. And I was shocked, and I couldn't believe this was going on. And he had a great story, which of course the first time I caught him I believed. And I was like, okay, well, you know, how many of us snuck out of our houses when we were teenagers? Probably a lot of us, right? And Sorry, Mom. Kids do crazy things. Like, that is still where Steve and I definitely were. We're, you know, teenagers will be teenagers. And then, you know, this— I still had this lingering feeling that there's, there's something else. There's something else going on. And caught him twice more in September sneaking out. And at that point, we were like, all right, there's definitely— we need to start really putting this together. And it was where Connor's gonna jump back here in a moment. The final time that I had caught him sneaking out, I took his phone. You know, I had stopped looking at his phone all of the time because we had trusted him. And I remember sitting in my— with my therapist, and I was like, I've got to read this, don't I? I have to look at what's going on. And she was like— I said, I think I know what's going on, but I need to confirm it. And she's like, you've got to read it. And I sat down that night and opened up his phone, guessed his password on the second try, and I got in there. And just— I remember just sitting in my bathroom like stunned. At what I was reading and crying and just being like, I mean, absolutely in shock that, you know, my, my baby boy who just had truly— I mean, at that point, like, so hit me— the dual lives that he had been living brilliantly and clearly dangerously and, and had no idea how dangerous it was. And You know, I, after kind of semi-digesting what I had seen and read, I went downstairs to Steve and I was like, okay, here's the Cliff Notes version of what I have found, and we need to, we need to talk with Connor. And so this is where Connor will jump back in, but I thought it would be helpful for us to kind of tell you that part together because it's rather significant, and it would be weird if we had split that up. So go right.

Yeah, no, I think that was good context as well because, you know, I think you're a lot better at describing what's happened without saying what's happened than I am. So that was good. But yeah, that is it. Gee, thanks. All right, it's all pretty, pretty on brand, but Basically, you know, got— I remember that morning, um, you know, I, I, since I knew that they had taken my phone, I was like a little like worried about it, but you know, I was like, okay, probably fine. Um, and I had like mentioned it to my mom, like, did you go through my phone? And she was like, no. So I was like, okay, I guess that's fine. And I got a text later that day saying, you know, it's like during my lunch period, I remember It's like saying, you're like, hey, just so you know, you know, we have a mom and your— sorry, dad and I and you are having a family therapy session this afternoon. So I was like, okay, that's like a little weird, but whatever. Although, you know, of course I was like a red flag, but yes, I got there. And, you know, like, that's just like one of those moments. Like, I remember sitting in her little upstairs office because she, you know, held therapy at her house. In her little like closet of a room, all 4 of us sitting there and, you know, just kind of parents being like, you know, so we went through your phone. And I'd say, you know, the next 2 to 3 hours were like at the time the worst experience that I'd ever had in my life. You know, I didn't have a ton of life experience to really compare it to, but at the time this is one of the worst things that ever happened to me. So I was like, you know, already this like angsty, depressed kid. Whose deepest, darkest secret has just been divulged in front of 3 adults. And yeah, they're my parents and my subpar therapist, but it was just so mortifying in every meaning of the word. And not to be dramatic, but I was very like, at that moment I was like, all right, great. So I'm just driving myself off a bridge tonight. So that'll be that. But I didn't. So, you know, that was good, I guess. But that, I guess that night was, I guess, a turning point because, you know, well, things were still going poorly for me before then. Now it was like, okay, well, this having had my kind of like my secret life uncovered, for lack of better words. And I was like, that was at the time, that was like the one thing that brought me joy. You know, I hated school. I hated social situations. I hate— like, there was just— I wanted to be out of the North Shore already. I decided like that was that. I was moving at 16. So that, and then so like having, you know, my parents discovering that was kind of like the straw that broke the camel's back because I was already, you know, Everything else was causing a ton of anxiety and depression already, but that was kind of just like the cherry on top. And I'm really great with my little like figures of speech today, but yeah, like, I think it, like, it just like, it sent me spiraling. So that was like, just like timeline, that was like end of September. And then for the next like couple weeks to a month, My depression was like, I can say it was the worst that it— maybe not the worst it's ever been, but it was up there. I was just so miserable all the time. And I just remember that awful feeling, that awful weight, that hopelessness of just feeling kind of trapped in every way. The one thing that brought me happiness was now taken away by my parents. My parents knew everything and I was overall just like, I was not happy with life, but at the same time I was still not really willing to get any more help than what I was already getting. And what I was getting was subpar, subpar, subpar, but I didn't think I needed help. I thought that my parents just need to get off my back. Um, So, you know, you guys, I know, like, I'm kind of speaking for you, so I don't know if you, like, will want to jump back in.

Yeah, go ahead.

Well, yeah, I mean, I guess, like, it just basically had reached a point, my depression and all that, like, it kind of just had built up to this point where I remember one night, yeah, I decided, you know, I, I wanted to commit suicide, and it was very much like you know, I couldn't— there was so many just like emotions that I really didn't understand, didn't really know what to label as, didn't know— like, I was so just inexperienced in life. And like, so I kind of just decided like that was that. And, you know, nothing came of that, obviously, once again, other than the fact that, you know, it was like it just kind of solidified the fact that I was just like in this awful, awful depressed place that I didn't know how to get out of. So on that note, I'll pass it off to you.

Well, that's all— that is all very much how I remember it and how I've expressed it, you know, many times and when I've talked about it and written about it. You did spiral very, very quickly from that meeting, that fateful meeting, from the time that I first read your phone. You know, we, we realized then, just, you know, watching you and talking to you, that— and understanding, you know, from your— a parent's point of view and an adult's point of view, truly how dangerous the situations were that you had gotten yourself into, and that you—

you—

there was no way that you could understand how truly dangerous that was and how, um, life-threatening some of those situations were. And, you know, in speaking to several different professionals, really came to the conclusion that you needed much more intensive help, then we could get you on, you know, anywhere on the North Shore. And we looked and we talked to people and we, you know, weighed a ton of different options. And before we even came to you and said, okay, here's, here's what the options are that we have found. And, and I remember, you know, initially you were very much like No. And I thankfully at the time knew enough, you know, I guess felt in my gut enough to know that if you weren't buying into it, if you weren't on board, it didn't matter what we did, it would— it was not going to work. That you needed to really be on, uh, you know, realizing that yes, in fact, I, I need something more. And I don't know, you know, what kind of flipped for you where you finally were like, I think that I need to do this, I think I need to go away? Um, and you know, if you happen to know, you could, you know, feel free to share.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I can touch on that really quick. Uh, but I think, you know, I sort of touched on it, but like that whole, that whole evening of like, okay, I guess I'm gonna kill myself now. Um, and like, right, like, you're taking a bunch of pills. It was literally Tylenol, so it was like, okay, what's really gonna— you know, but in my head I was like, okay, this is it. And so like, obviously it was like incredibly sad or whatever. Like, I remember that like night of like, you know, I thought I was like— I thought I'd taken enough and I was like, you know, and I— but like, by the way, I was nowhere near taken enough to do any sort of damage. But again, it was the thought that like, okay, this is it. And like, I remember that night, like, you know, saying goodnight to my mom and dad and being like all sad, but like not really, you know, like just kind of being like, oh, you know, like this, this is it. And then waking up, shockingly waking up the next morning and being like, okay, well, maybe it's time for me to go because it's a little problematic. So yeah, I finally decided that that was like a necessity, was at the very least to get out. And to be fair also, I mean, I'd never been to California and I really wanted to go to California. So, you know, a little like trip to like California was like not the worst thing in the world. And I was missing school, which I, oh, quite frankly, I mean, I don't know if any of your listeners are Nutria students. I figure they are, but like I can say passionately the worst part of my life was that school, was that place. And I know it's not very encouraging, but like literally whatever you do after that, it gets better. It's going to be better. Like, I would like to think that that is— that school was the lowest point I will ever reach, and I've reached some really low points.

But yeah, so anyway, okay, everybody needs to take a really deep breath right now because I know, even for me, and I, I know the story, I lived this story, and I, um, have to breathe through it every single time we talk about it, otherwise I will still burst into tears. So everybody can just take a moment, um, and because that's a lot. And, and Connor is able to say it, you're able to say it.

Trigger warning on it.

Yeah, I think so. That's okay. No, because you're able to articulate really where you were at that point, and I think That's really, really so valuable for, for people to understand just how hopeless you felt and how sad you felt and how lost you were. And I think sometimes, you know, we forget when, you know, our kids, especially our teenagers, are coming out, um, that they're also dealing with, you know, being teenagers and, and not, you know, their brains are not fully developed, so they aren't able to make good decisions. And, um, you know, they don't have impulse control, and that's because they just aren't there yet. And so, you know, you pile all these things together, and it's no wonder that they can become a hot mess, right? And so, um, you just—

you—

it's, it's super valuable information. And, um, I am grateful every single day that it was Tylenol, which is a placebo, and that we were able to, you know, find a place like Newport for you to go to, um, and really, you know, start healing and kind of start like the next part of your journey. Just really, really grateful, really grateful in so many ways. Um, and that's actually where, you know, Connor— Connor's gonna stop for today with this part one of his journey, I guess we could say. And I don't know if there's anything else that you really want to add, Connor. I'm going to respond to a few things, but is there anything that you'd like to add?

Coming out as, you know, coming out at any time is incredibly hard, but I think, you know, the time that I came out with like so many other things, you know, so many other things in my brain changing and like developing and whatever made it that much more difficult. But I don't know, I guess it just made it much more of a learning experience. Yeah, that's good.

No, I think that was a good thing for you to end on. And I just wanted to touch on just a couple of things that you said just to kind of circle back to them that I remember at the time being so frustrated with because I didn't understand what you meant. So just so all of you know, when we— when Connor first came out, his big theme was always, I just want freedom. You know, he always used it, I want, I want independence, I need independence, I want freedom. And, and that was such a huge, like, overarching theme. And, you know, of course At the time, Steve and I were like, well, you're 16. Like, you know, we can give you what's appropriate to give a 16-year-old, right? And we were very much going by the, you know, the rules are the same for you as they would be for, you know, if you were straight. The rules are the same, gay or straight, right? So it— we were on such a learning curve, and, and I didn't understand at the time what he actually meant by, you know, the freedom, the independence. And of course, now looking back in retrospect and knowing his story, I understand what he was saying. And it was so much deeper than like actual independence and actual freedom. I mean, in like the tangible sense of I want to be able to do what I want to do. What he really wanted was to, to be who he is and, and be his authentic self. And he couldn't articulate that at the time, which, I mean, there's no way that he could have. There's no way any of us could have. But now looking back, I think we both realize like that's what he was reaching for. That's what he was trying to get to, was just to have that feeling of this is who I am, I love who I am, and just being, being that person to the world. So I really wanted to touch on that because I, I think that's, you know, been one of the, the many, many valuable lessons on this, this, uh, journey. The other, I just wanted to The therapy we've, you know, I've talked about many times, and I think it'll be interesting as we go through these different episodes together to really follow, you know, Connor's journey with therapy and to where he is today and really valuing it. But I think it's very helpful for us to an understanding, you know, kind of how teenagers approach it and how they see it. And, and also underscores the importance of finding the right therapist, uh, for anyone, not just teenagers, but for all of us. So unless you have anything else you'd like to add, I think this is where we will wrap up part 1. Connor, Connor leaving for California. End of part 1.

Cliffhanger.

Cliffhanger. So Connor will be back for 2 more episodes, which is very exciting. And this is where we're going to leave. So thanks so much for joining us today. And a reminder from both of us to just breathe, to take that daily breath, to just focus and calm yourself and center yourself. And to please subscribe to and review Just Breathe. Subscribe to my website to stay informed. Join the Just Breathe Facebook community if you are looking to just have support and community with other like-minded people. And share this with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone. Until next time.