Coming Out, Growing Up & Finding Pride in a Changing World | More Human More Kind

Showtime! Yes, welcome to Just Breathe. I am so happy you are all here today. Today's guest is a fan favorite, um, and, and of course a favorite of mine as well. I am so excited to have Connor back on the show today to kick off Pride Month and to kind of catch up and catch you all up so you hear what he's been up to. And of course, he always has lots of amazing things to share with us and with all of you. So I am thrilled and grateful that you have taken time out of your day, out of your Friday, to hang out with me on online, which you all— I know is very funny. Connor and I typically are you know, talking on the phone, but we are, we are doing this today, which is very funny for us. So anyway, thanks Connor.

Yes. Thank you so much for having me. It's nice to be back and, you know, glad to chat and catch up.

I know. Well, this is, this is a fun way of, of doing this. So Connor and I typically, we, we talk about once a week and, um, I'm very excited because this is actually my first time talking to Connor. Well, at least like this in his new apartment. He just moved to a new apartment, moved from the East Village to Brooklyn, kind of in between Williamsburg and Bushwick, right? So I'm excited. I get to go actually see his new place in a couple of weeks, but right now I'm just imagining it. So super excited that we, we get a little peek here into Connor's life a week after his big move. Um, and finishing his junior year, which is amazing. So let's just start out with like a little update because I'm trying to think back to the last time we chatted, which has been a little while since you've been on. I mean, it was very COVID-y, I think.

Yeah, no, I definitely— I was still at home, so I don't know if that was like last summer or longer, but it's been a minute.

So let's just hear a quick update about you and what you've been up to, what you're doing, all that good stuff. Yeah.

Uh, um, yeah, no, I guess it's been a productive year. Um, You know, I just finished, like you said, I just finished my junior year, which is very exciting. Um, got very— was very happy with the grades that I ended up with. And, um, you know, I'm getting very close to getting Latin honors, which is very exciting. Um, it's a fun thing to work for— work towards, uh, especially given the starting point of my grades first semester to where I am now is a huge improvement. So that's very exciting.

Um, but outside of that, uh, can you share a little bit about what you're, what you're majoring in and what you're doing? Because I don't think we've talked much about that, and it's very cool.

Totally. It's my fave. Um, yeah, so my major, which name keeps changing, but as of right now it is Interactive Design and Media. And that is, I mean, I always struggle to explain necessarily what that encapsulates, but, or encompasses, whatever. But it's essentially just like learning all the different like mediums of like design, digital design. So that, you know, ranges from like just basic graphic design to like 3D, 3D design and modeling, user experience design, web design. I'm particularly interested in kind of like the post-production and kind of like film aspect of that. And that's something that I've kind of been, I don't know, I guess investigating a little more to see like what about it really interests me. Because I mean, like the cool thing about the major is it essentially just like over the course of 4 years exposes you to like all the different kinds of design. That you can do with your computer. And so kind of just like figuring out like what sticks, what really interests me has been a journey, but also, you know, a very fun journey because it's been like a lot of like refining my artistic sensibilities and my aesthetic and Yeah, it's been— I mean, like, the coolest part I think is just like I never thought of myself as like an artist or an artsy person all through high school. I'd kind of just decided that I was going to be a STEM student and eventually a computer science student, and that was just fully not the right thing for me. I do not enjoy math or science. So, you know, this is a fun, fun change of pace where like I was actually like looking for over to my classes and like, um, really wanting to like put forth good effort into like my projects and stuff. So it's been a really cool experience. No fucking clue about what I'm gonna do with this, um, in the future. But you know, for right now it's fun. So, um, that's a really long-winded answer, but no, it's a good answer.

And it's, um, it's definitely I mean, I think that you are— you're doing it the way that college should be done, right? I mean, I, I love that you have— you went in literally as a computer science major in the engineering school, and this major is in the engineering school, which is really cool. So you were able to kind of over time like try things out, and you're like, oh, this fits better, I like this better, and you've just kind of been weaving your way toward this major, um, and the flexibility has been there to, to let you do that, but you've also allowed yourself to do that instead of being like very fixed mindset, like this is what I'm supposed to do, right? Because I'm good at it. And so it's this whole, you know, conversation of just, just because you're good at something doesn't mean that you have to do that, right? If you don't love it, then it's—

yeah, I mean, I think like that's definitely one of the huge things that we've, you know, kind of learned from the pandemic is like we shouldn't be wasting our time doing shit that we don't like enjoy. Like, life is too short to be wasting our time. That was— I was gonna Anyway, it's too short to be fucking around with, like, you know, with math and science, you know, no one, no one wants to be doing that. Yeah. I don't know what I was going to say.

Yeah. Well, no. And I just was going to say, you're thinking about all the projects that you've done and shared, you know, Connor shares all the stuff with us and he has a super cool portfolio and he does. I mean, he's so creative and the stuff he comes up with, you know, he'll send to all of us., and we're all like, oh my gosh, how did you come up with that? I mean, it is crazy, crazy stuff. A little dark sometimes, maybe a little bit like, oh wow. Um, but awesome.

Thank you.

Right.

Thank you.

So, um, I love that. And I think, you know, kind of the message that I love about this, or one of the big messages is just kind of that, um, watching you really figure out your passion, like what, you know, makes you want to go to school, what makes you want to get up and go to those classes, you know, what makes you get on a train and, you know, take a 20-minute subway ride to get to class, right? I mean, it's not like you're rolling out of bed and walking down the street to— it's an effort, and, um, and you make this effort, and, uh, because you love it and you're good at it.

So yeah, really fun to kind of explore, figure out, because I mean, like, I mean, also, I mean, just a little add-on, but like, it's like largely been the stuff that like I don't expect to like stick or be enjoyable that I've like gotten the most out of. Like, I feel like I'm definitely much more oriented towards like animation and like 2D motion design. Which I never would have thought I would have been into before because that's like typically something that requires like, or at least I thought requires a ton of like artistic talent, particularly like being able to like draw shit. And I cannot draw to save my life. It is quite pitiful, but kind of like figuring out how to use all these like different types of online tools or not online tools, but like, you know, digital tools to articulate my kind of thoughts. It's very cool. So yeah, yeah, it's very fun.

Very, very fun. Well, and alongside this, you've also, you know, figured out how to, you know, navigate living in a big city, right?

Yeah, I mean, you know, to a, to a very baseline extent, yes, I am, you know, I think you should give yourself a little more credit than that.

You know, Connor has discovered the joys of Trader Joe's, which for, you know, you all know whoever has Trader Joe's near them knows how much, how great Trader Joe's is. So, yeah, a treat, right?

It is. It takes so much of the effort out of like having to grocery shop too, because I'm not trying to like prepare meals for myself most of the time. I mean, 99% of the time. So like having some like actually high quality, like frozen thing I can just pop in the oven or whatever is life-changing. So yeah, kind of, that's actually definitely the worst part about this new apartment is that there's no, uh, Trader Joe's within walking distance.

So I'm gonna have to, you know, adapt to the circumstances, but, uh, yeah, you're gonna have to get like your grocery bags, you know, and know what fits in like 2 grocery bags, like your, you know, reusables.

Yeah. It's my like body bag that I put all my groceries in. Um, but taking that in the subway is gonna be far less pleasurable. So, yeah. But anyway, mm-hmm. Well, I will adapt and overcome.

Um, yeah, but you will. You'll be good. Yes. So switching gears just a little bit, and you know, as, as Connor and I were kind of thinking about this episode, we, we came up with a couple of things that we thought might be interesting for, for you to hear and to, to learn about as far as Connor's perspective and my perspective. But one of the things that we were talking about is kind of what you know, as he's moved from high school and everything that he was, you know, learning and going through and dealing with in high school and moved into this college phase and living away from home and living in New York City, how has that changed kind of what you want or need from Dad and me now as opposed to what you wanted and needed then?

That's a good question. I mean, like, I think in high school, I mean, I will say it like, I just was obviously far more dependent on you guys for, I mean, you know, everything. I'm not that I'm like, you know, that much more independent now. I mean, I guess I am, but, you know, in high school, it was definitely like I needed kind of a, what's the word, a helping hand, a guiding, kind of pointing me in the right direction sort of thing to kind of stay on track. Yeah. And I mean, like, also, yeah, it's kind of like, I mean, you really did kind of find all the resources for me and, you know, you're the one that got me set up with therapy. I mean, granted, you got me set up with therapy here. So I can't really say that that's much different, but, um, you know, in fact it was just, I guess like, you know, it's all just to say like it was definitely a much more hands-on experience, um, than it is now.

I mean, you get yourself to therapy now, right? Like you hold yourself accountable to whether it's in person or virtual, that's on you, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no. I mean, it's like, it is, yeah, it's definitely, it's, it's different in that like I am much more accountable to myself, but in terms of establishing that relationship. You were the one that found my lovely therapist who I've now had for like 3 years or 2 years, something like that. I mean, with the pandemic, it's just been kind of a blur. So who's really to say? But sorry, I'm trying to think of a little something a little more profound than just the fact that like, yeah, you guys are like, now you guys are not physically present. And like, there's a lot more that like, you know, just like a part of, I guess, you know, becoming an adult and becoming my own person and like learning how to be self-sufficient. It's definitely changed our relationship. And like, I mean, definitely in like a very good way. I think it's now it's much less of like a dependent relationship. I mean, it's still like, you know, parent-child, but like, I think it's far more like— for me at least, it just feels like you guys like see me as like more of an equal or more of like, you know, just like a well-rounded adult. Um, whereas before it was obviously much more, I think, just like, you know, understandable worry and, um At the very least, you know, just like concerned that like I wasn't going to fall off the whatever again. So now that it's like, you know, again, knock on wood, but like now that it's, you know, a couple of years of relatively steady independent living and relatively successful living, I think like it's just like it is much more like amicable relationship. Um, you know, like Dad was here last weekend and it was just like, you know, very pleasant, you know, like being able to talk, not that I actually care about business, but like, you know, asking him how business is going and like, how's the company? And like, he feels fully like, you know, is more than thrilled to talk about, you know, all these business things. And that's like really sweet. And, you know, like we got like drinks together and we just like in the neighborhood, like, at some cute little neighborhood bar and just like, you know, people watching. And it was just like, I don't know, it again, very, very long drawn out answer just to say that like, you know, it is much more— I don't know, it's just like, I guess I do. I just see it as a much more positive relationship now. Not that it was ever like a negative relationship, but it's just like it doesn't feel like I'm like It's not the like worry of like, oh, what if mom and dad gonna think of me, you know, doing X or Y? It's kind of more like I can come to you guys when I need assistance, um, or advice, but it's not like I'm necessarily accountable to you guys.

Right. Well, I think, I think that's a really great way of saying it because I think you are, You know, from my perspective, um, I've just seen your confidence blossom. And, um, you know, every time that you like proved yourself, like, I've got this. Oh my gosh, I can, I can do this. Like, it's just like another layer of confidence for you. So, um, you're now accountable to yourself, which is, I think, a really huge growth piece and being able to recognize that, right? And just kind of making that shift to like realizing I can, I could totally do this. Like I, I've got this and I know if I need anything or if I just want to chat or if I, you know, whatever it is, like we're right there, we're a phone call away. Right? Right. We're a 2-hour plane trip away. Um, and so there is like that, like it's become more of, like you said, like this, the relationship has shifted, but from my perspective, um, it's shifted to, you know, it's, it's lovely. I mean, it's one of my most favorite things in the world. So, um, Obviously, you know, I'm a mom and I'm biased, but I just, I think for me, I get such joy from, you know, as you talk about things and you share different things and just seeing your growth has been extraordinary. So I think I threw that question in there because I was just curious, you know, what you, how you saw all of that, because obviously it's going to be different the way you see it as opposed to the way I see it.

So, yeah, similar page though.

Yeah. Well, you know, I think as you like, you know, kind of pull yourself, you know, as you establish yourself as an adult, right? Um, and not a dependent child, like there's a lot of stuff that goes on there. And so, um, you know, like with everything that you've done, you are very aware as you do things. Um, So yes, you're very welcome. Um, you mentioned therapy, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask you about that because I, uh, you know, as, as you know, that's one of my favorite subjects.

I'm familiar. Yes.

Um, but you now have a therapist who you love and who you connect with and just have a good relationship with, I should say, and good communication with. And that has not always been the case.

Yes.

And so I just would love to know, I wonder if you could share kind of, I mean, we, you've shared and we've shared a lot of kind of the beginning ups and downs with therapy. But as you've kind of moved into this now 2-plus-year relationship with your current therapist, how has that kind of changed the way you've thought about therapy and where it fits in your life? And, and then kind of the second part of that question is, and maybe we can get to this, you know, I'll repeat it, but just so you can be thinking about it is how does that kind of fit with like the whole like coming out process?

Sorry, could you actually—

could—

yeah, could you repeat that part? Kind of cut out.

Oh, did it? Oh, just wondering how, um, therapy in your mind, um, where that fits with the coming out process.

Okay, sure. Okay, yeah, yeah, I mean, so I guess so the first part was just like where I'm at with therapy now.

Yeah, like, okay. Yeah, right.

Okay. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think like the most notable change is just like the, the subject matter of the therapy. Like, I feel like, I mean, it definitely was like, you know, up until like a year ago, it was kind of just like crisis therapy, um, coming into session with like, you know, X problem, Y problem, Z problem. This is fucked up, this is the worst, this is whatever. And like, definitely very just like, I don't know how to describe it, just like very kind of early, early stages of therapy. Like, I definitely didn't really know how to like, I mean, I was like self-aware, but like being a teenager and like having a very like, delusional confidence and delusional, you know, feeling like I have got it all figured out. So it's a lot of like, I guess, kind of unlearning and relearning for the first portion of therapy, however many years that was. I mean, probably 4 years, but You know, now it's definitely moved into a zone of like, I guess it's just kind of most akin to like, you know, it's just basic self-care. Like, yeah, I have it once a week. It's a 45, 50 minute session. Um, and it's really just like, I mean, it, in a lot of ways has become kind of mundane, but like, that's also kind of a good thing. Like, it's really just like, I kind of, talk about my week and if anything came up, kind of talk about that or like, you know, anything that's like on my mind to talk about. But like, it is definitely like very different, like in tone. It's not as much of me like coming to session being like, how do I fix this? I mean, it's like it still is, but it's like now is much more— I don't know, I guess there's just like a much higher level of self-awareness. And like, kind of like what can be fixed with therapy or like, how do I address this in like a therapeutic context? Whereas before it was kind of like, before meaning like, you know, when I was just starting therapy in the first couple years of therapy, like it was much more just kind of unfamiliar with how it works and how to kind of You know, like navigate it, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

What would be your, you know, kind of knowing what you know now, what would be your advice to like your 16-year-old self, right? Like, you know, you're, you're just coming out, you're in that place. What would be your advice? I mean, and not just about therapy, but just kind of in general, like, just considering, um, and you used the word delusional earlier and I really, I, that's so like developmentally appropriate to think that, you know, everything at that age, like that's just kind of part of being a high school kid, right? Yeah, definitely. Um, so, but what would be your, like now kind of knowing what you know, having been through what you've been through.

Let's see. I guess just like, I guess this is like, I don't know, I guess this advice kind of applies more so to like, you know, I was very fortunate to have like queer therapists, or at least people that were like very familiar with that. I don't know, realm. But truly just like, these people are trained professionals, like with rest therapy, like these people, like generally these people know what they're talking about. And if they're bringing something to your attention or saying you should try this, there's definitely a reason for this. I don't know. I guess it's like, it's a generic piece of advice to be like, yeah, just have an open mind. But like, truly, that's like—

Did you find that it took you like a while to trust? Were you, or were you just like, and not even trust, but like, were you just like, I don't need this, I don't want this, why am I here?

Like, was that kind of your initial Yeah, I mean, there was like obviously a level of like, I mean, by the time like that was starting therapy, like it was like I knew that I needed it to an extent. It was just like I was not inclined to actually like, you know, give a fuck about it. I think it's especially with like my first couple therapists, like it was very like, I kind of just gave a very edited version of the truth that was like convenient for me at the time because there was also this level of like, oh, like if I say something that's like too extreme and they're gonna tell my parents and then that's like a whole other issue. So like I have to kind of just like edit it down to like the family-friendly version of what's going on. And so I guess on that note, They're— don't lie to your therapist because A, it's like you're wasting, you're wasting your time because like then they're just going to be giving you this like advice that's entirely irrelevant to like your situation because they think that you're like in this entirely other scenario than like the scenario you're in. I guess that's like more specific to like when you're in like, you know, crisis mode. But like, yeah, I guess just like it's corny, but it's like it works if you work it. Like you gotta just like really embrace it. I don't know. Because like—

That's really good.

That's— Thank you. Yeah, because I don't— yeah, it's hard to say because it's like, it is like, I totally, you know, I get like no one— I mean, especially, yeah, especially as a teenager, like no one's like dying to like see a therapist, especially if you've never like been to therapy before. Like not knowing what to expect and like kind of like getting used to that dynamic is kind of jarring. But yeah, just like going, like being receptive to it because like, you know, I don't know. Sorry, it's a very piecemeal advice.

I think that's really— it's spot on. I mean, it's, it's where you were, it's where you are. And I think there's this piece of to, um, you know, it's complicated. And it was a, you know, like we always say, like being, being a teenager is hard enough, right? It's complicated enough. And then, you know, yes, there are many awesome things about coming out as a teenager, but it also complicates things in a lot of ways, right? So this is just like one piece of that. Where you're just adding another layer of how do I navigate this? Because I'm trying to navigate this. Now there's like 12 other things I have to navigate too. And just trying to figure that out. And then on the parent side, like, we're trying to figure it out, trying to figure out how to support you. Right. And what do you, what do you really need? What role do you think that when you are so comfortable in your own skin now and, and you're, you know, that's something that you've worked really hard on, really, really hard on to just, you know, and obviously that's something that, you know, you'll work on your whole life, right? I mean, we all do. That's just a piece of like just being a human being, but that's been one of the you know, more fun things for me to watch is to watch this like slow, like, ooh, I really like this about myself and this is kind of cool and I'm just going to be me. Right. And, and obviously that's, you know, something that ebbs and flows again because that's just being human. But what You know, now that you're like leaning into that more and more, what about that just kind of makes you most happy? Like makes you, or most calm or, um, yeah, that's a great question.

Um, yeah, I mean, I guess like first it's very important cuz like it totally ebbs and flows. Like it is definitely like, you know, and it's also, I think like a very like situational thing. Like, you know, I, definitely see myself as like, you know, the way that I— my self-image I think is like, you know, maybe the most ground level of the, you know, self-confidence. Like, it's definitely like, you know, it's transitioned from this place of like, oh, I hate myself, to like, oh, you know, like, I love myself. I see like the validity and like who I am and etc. But there's still definitely the like, you know, the point now where it's like, okay, well, like my, I don't know how to put it, but like my confidence in being perceived by others, which is like, I guess kind of hard to describe. It's just like, you know, I've definitely kind of found myself, especially recently, like in social situations, almost any social situations, it still is like an extreme amount of effort for me to like, be in those situations and like remain— I don't know if confident is the right word, but just like not like reverting to like this like very self-conscious negative place. Because I think like that's been the biggest transition is like, you know, kind of being able to avoid getting into that headspace of, you know, like, you're not wanted here, you're not worth it, you're not whatever. Like, just like the, you know, the negative self-talk has become far less a part of the equation. And I just realized I kind of went on a tangent.

What— No, I think that's, that's all. It's very real. I mean, that's what people want to, you know, that's what It's you being real. Right. So I think that that's important.

Thank you. Yeah. I mean, and yeah, I mean, but I will say, you know, like just in terms of like general, like self-confidence, like self-image, uh, like I said, like has definitely been better. Like there's just, uh, I will say like the pandemic and I know this is true for a lot of people that like that definitely like was a huge setback to like just like my confidence in the sense of like, you know, being out in public and being perceived by other people. Like, I don't know, like it was just something that like made me incredibly anxious. Like I just didn't want that. And so it's been like a, you know, over the past whatever year, year and a half, it's been a lot of like kind of rebuilding and rediscovering like how can I, you know, how Do I, you know, just like approach the most basic things like being in public, going grocery shopping, going on the subway, you know, going to class, going out with friends. Like, how can I do these things in a way that I don't know, just being like gentle with myself.

Like staying connected to you?

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Just being in touch, yeah, with like being in touch with myself and like also—

like, can you go back for one second? Actually, can you back up just a little bit? We just paused. It just, it just went on a pause. So, okay.

I forgot the thing, but something about self-awareness and self-confidence and something of Heather Hester.

I think it was, yeah. So no, it was just kind of talking about like when you go and go do all of these basic things, going grocery shopping, going to class, going out with your friends, like what is it that helps you? You said like being gentle with yourself, which is such a great thing. And then I said, you know, kind of like staying connected to who you are, or, you know, is that a kind of a piece of what plays? And I'm kind of asking this more of a question than a statement, like—

No, yeah, yeah. I mean, first of all, you're very good at recalling conversation because it, you know, it's all since been erased in my mind. So I appreciate you, you know, being able to keep the, keep the, the page. Um, but I don't know. I guess it's just kind of like, yeah, like just like exposure therapy, if that makes sense. Like it is kind of just like, and it is like, I mean, I will say this is like very, I mean, not that it's like very unique to me as in no one else experiences, like everyone experiences this to some extent. With their own things, you know, like mine in this case right now is like, you know, just like being social in any capacity, connecting with other human beings, being around other human beings. I think that like a most basic level, like that's my new frontier of things that I'm struggling with. Oversharing with the internet right now. But like I don't know, it just like, it, it just takes practice and like, I don't know.

Do you think that it's been harder to— I mean, the, you know, the pandemic has hit, um, I mean, obviously it's affected everybody in some way, right? But I, I feel like especially for, um you know, adolescents, teenagers, young adults, because you are all in such a stage of development and change and transition anyway. And so adding this kind of on top of it has had a huge effect on, on all of you, right? And you've all kind of, now that we're coming out of this, are now having this kind of reentry, right? So it's like a reentry struggle to a degree, but it affects, you know, the way it is affecting you is it's affecting, you know, your sisters and your brother in a totally different way and right. Every other kid out there in a totally different way or young adult in a totally different way. And so, you know, I think there's a huge amount of validation that needs to go with this and that. Um, This is sadly, I think, part of this whole process, and it's something that we're all unfamiliar with, right? How do you navigate something like this and, and navigate it at a time where you're, you've changed in a million different ways since the pandemic started. Yeah, just in the sense that you're 2 and I'm actually older.

Mostly older the better, thank God.

Well, right, for absolutely, but I mean just in the sense of like, you know, your, your age is different where, you know, where you are in college is, you know, as far as like, uh, you're learning and what you're developing and, you know, all these different pieces. Whereas I'm, you know, for me as an adult, like it's very different, right? That's like, this is kind of the point that I'm trying to make is that sure, it's like amplified. For you and for your, you know, your generation. Um, and then I'm, I guess I'm just curious, kind of on, on top of that, you're also navigating like, you know, how to be social, how to connect with, you know, your authentic self.

Right, right, right. Sorry. Yeah, you actually— could you repeat like the last part of that? It cut out again.

Did it cut out again? Okay. What part did you get? I think I was just— I think, I think I was just rambling about the pandemic.

No. Yeah.

I mean, it was about like the pandemic and like, yeah, yeah.

A different experience of, or like everyone kind of is struggling with a different aspect of it.

Right. I think I was like, what I kind of ended there with was like the layered aspect of, um, of the pandemic effect on top of like in your specific case. And, and as in the case of, you know, let's just say a lot of kids who are in the coming out process, young adults who are in the coming out process, that's like a whole other layer of like, yeah, yeah, no, like, okay, who am I and how do I kind of where do I fit in the world and how do I wanna show up? So I think that's kind of the, the, I guess my thoughts and my question to you is like, is that something that you feels like much bigger?

Yeah. I mean, I think, yeah, that's a very good point. Like it is like this, you know, Gen Z, I guess, generally speaking, I mean, like everyone, you know, has like experienced some form of trauma from the pandemic, but like, I think there's like a very, you know, Gen Z being in a very like pivotal, pivotal time, uh, just like in your life, you know, being a teenager and kind of like learning how to interact with the world and like socialize at a very basic level, um, that, you know, of course was entirely cut off at the knees, um, as soon as the pandemic hit. So I think, yeah, it's just like a very isolating experience for everyone. But then, you know, on top of, you know, coming out experience, which can be a very isolating experience upon its own, like it's just like that much more difficult. But I guess also at the same time, like being in that kind of like heavy pandemic phase where it's like the only connection you really get is like through the internet, that's already like, people can find a lot of community and belonging on the internet. And so I think like that, I can't, making broad generalizations, but like, I think the internet, especially recently, has become a place of Actually, no, I'm gonna— that thought wasn't very well developed. So it's just like, it's rambling, but you know, I like it. It's being around, you know, teenager, early 20s, whatever, being gay, being at the early, earlier part of your coming out process, you know, and it's just, you know, it's just like adding on to the already very chaotic experience. What is already a chaotic experience is that much more chaotic experience, perhaps even more of a— even more individual experience. Right. So anyway, do you think that having—

but no, no, no, that was, I think, very good because They were, they were very good thoughts. I'm just wondering, and this is like a total off-the-cuff question, but I think as parents, we're very much like hypersensitive to the effect of the internet and social media and all, you know, knowing what is out there, right? Or being very afraid of what is out there. And Just thinking about, you know, kind of how you, how you just stated that there are actually positive parts, right? There, there are things that there is good that has come from having the internet and having social media, especially these past 2, 2 years, right? What, you know, for, you know, specifically, you know, kind of high school, college age, young adult, um, kids who are, who are in this process.

Um, sorry, pause. Can you go back to the beginning of the question? It cut out again.

Oh, did it? Okay. What did you last hear?

Yeah. Sorry.

No, that's okay.

Um, you were just saying, you know, like basically you just started the question. You're just like, what, um, Oh, so funny.

Um, so I think I'm saying for, um, like internet stuff.

Yeah.

Like what would be your, as we kind of look at the whole, as a, like a big picture thing, but to kids who are coming out, who are, you know, high school, college, young adult, so like that that age group, right? Not the really young ones, uh, you know, middle school, which is a totally different kind of ballgame, right? Um, of what we would, of what we would recommend. Um, but as far as, you know, what would you say, like, yes, you can find community there. What are things that you would recommend as far as like, not even necessarily where to look, but like kind of what to look for and what to be aware of? So you don't have to go into like, I mean, unless you want to offer very specific things you can, but otherwise just kind of like a general, like, you know.

Yeah. I mean, like, I guess like just, yeah, as a very general, like I would say the way that I use and consume the internet and social media and things of the like, it's definitely much more passive. Um, I don't, really, I, yeah, I don't find any joy in like contributing to it, if that makes sense. You know, like I'm not posting stuff on TikTok, Instagram, et cetera, but I do enjoy, you know, scrolling through and kind of taking in the content of others. And, you know, especially now, like all of these, particularly social media apps are so, like the algorithm is so tailored to you and like, you know, because they have all of your personal information, they, you know, you get a very well-tailored algorithm or like, you know, feed of like stuff. And so that's all just to say, like, for me, especially now, like, it's like I have a very queer-centric feed on like all of the social media that I use. Like, I, you know, follow queer creators and follow, you know, like people, drag queens, you know, like stuff like, it's like two examples, but like, you know, just like people that like, you know, I like what they have to say. And I know this is kind of common sense, but like, just like with the internet, you can entirely like insulate yourself from like all the other gross, like hate and nastiness, like, and kind of just live in, like, in my case, you know, just live in like a queer little bubble. Like my little, like, niche part of the internet, it's like queer. And that— I just—

I'm going to stop you right there for a second because I think that's a really, really important thing that as parents, that is something that we're very afraid of, right? That's something that— I mean, and I'm speaking for myself, but I think that there are many out there who would agree that one, one thing that we definitely think about is 'Oh my gosh, you know, is there all this hate that's coming at my child?' Or 'Are they just going to trip into, you know, something where, oh my, you know, they're not aware of what's going on?' Or it's, you know, 'They could be preyed upon.' Or, I mean, and I'm obviously speaking in like huge generalizations here, but I think these are like big fears Right. So for you to say that is really a great piece of information, and I think very calming for both parent and, you know, teenager, young adult.

Yeah. I mean, and I will say, it's like, to that end, you know, like, you know, I could definitely understand the worry of, like, you know, as a parent, you know, like worrying about like, you know, are people saying shit about my kid online? And like, maybe not that specifically, but like, you know, I think that for me is definitely like one of the reasons why I don't, I choose not to post very often. Like, you know, I have an Instagram and I post to my Instagram every once in a while, but like, that's still like very much like a much more personal thing versus posting stuff on Twitter or TikTok or whatever. I don't do that because I feel like it just sets you up for, you know, getting— receiving hate because people on the internet, like, the internet's a great thing, but it's also like can be a very nasty and hateful thing. And, you know, obviously it's like, you know, people can choose to do what they want, but like for me it's just like I'm avoiding it entirely because like while it would be nice, you know, to maybe get like the validation of like attention and exposure, it's not worth the potential like, you know, hate and negativity.

Right. Well, I think that's a really, um, that's a lovely piece of your self-care, um, and, and also self-discipline, um, that, um, I know both you and Isabel go through times where you just completely get rid of Instagram altogether. Um, and then, you know, then you'll hop back on after a while, but kind of taking that like break, like, okay, I need a break right now from this. And, um, but then, you know, it's the whole like knowing yourself and being comfortable enough. And I think this goes back to like being comfortable enough in your skin and maybe you don't, you don't give yourself enough credit for this. That you're like, I, I don't need that. I don't want that. That doesn't, you know, that doesn't define me. Um, it's, it's fun to look at. It's fun to, you know, to, you know, you pick up bits of information, right? Um, you connect in a way that you want to connect, like you've very much taken control of how you navigate the internet and social media, which is cool. Thank you. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. I just think, you know, it's kind of, it's such an interesting thought on that. So, um, that kind of goes into, um, just thinking about, you know, if we talked, talked a little bit about Just like the fears and the challenges of the internet and social media. But do you have like any trepidation or concerns or fears, flat-out fears, you know, kind of specific to where you are right now in your experience and in your life? And kind of at the same time for the LGBTQ community, like the greater community. What are— as a gay man, what are your concerns? Because they're going to be different than what mine are as the mom of a gay man, right?

Um, so concerns, I guess. Yeah.

Like, when you think about the community, when you think about like where we kind of are, I know this could obviously go in a lot of different directions. So I asked this kind of with, you know, we could spend a couple hours just talking about like very specific concerns here. But yeah, I think my question is more like Is that something that kind of enters your thoughts on a daily basis? Like, gosh, this, this really concerns me about me and then about my community.

Right.

Okay.

Yeah.

Is that a clear question? Sorry, I'm not asking it right.

Yeah. No, no, no. That was a good clarification. Okay. Yeah. No, I mean, I think it's obviously, again, it's It's like this should all be taken very much with a grain of salt because mine is just one opinion and I am coming from a place of a very specific perspective. But I will say, as I've continued to come out and continue to grow and learn and change, et cetera, where I used to kind of view my queerness as A, a very central component to my existence, but like B, also something that was like kind of entirely separate from the other aspects of who I was or am. You know, like that's a part of my identity for sure, but like a separate portion. And I think that over time has kind of transitioned into like, like that's just, you know, that's not how It's not how I work. That's not really— I don't know, that's just not how it works. Like, you can't really, like, have things in, like, these neat, like, little categories. And so now it's kind of just like, you know, being queer is just like, it's a part of who I am, but it's like, it's just like every little facet of who I am. I mean, not every, but like, it's just like, it's my perspective. It's where I'm coming from, not necessarily like a separate component of who I am. And that's kind of like meta and hard to, like, I don't know, just like put into like a clearly defined thing, but—

Oh, that's, I think that could not have been more clear. You actually like, literally like, that is, that is crystal clear.

Okay. Well, thank you.

Yes.

Thank you. Um, but yeah, I mean, and it's like, I also, again, like I do have privilege in spades, but like, particularly in living in New York and living someplace very urban and very open and queer and just like, it's very accepting of, embracing of queer people. And so again, that's part of why it can just be a part of my day-to-day existence and stuff. But I have, especially when I leave New York, realize how lucky and how truly rare it is to have that kind of experience of I can walk out in the street wearing whatever the fuck I want and no one will give it a second thought. Whereas quite unfortunately in a lot of other places that's still not the case. And people don't have the same luxury of being able to really outwardly express, you know, just authentically express their queerness and who they are. And, you know, I think that is something that's like very scary for a lot of people today because— and again, I'm trying to avoid getting too preachy or meta on this, but it's just like, you know, in a time where particularly our government and like those in power are doing everything they can to kind of like silence and prevent otherness and prevent autonomy and prevent, you know, for any minority group, you know, like we've seen with Roe v. Wade and, you know, what else is to come. Anyway, not to take it too far down that direction because obviously we could talk about that for a while, but It's, it's, it's, it's, it's complicated.

Well, it is, but I think that that's important. I mean, that's— I know that was a tough question to ask and ask you to give like a general answer to, so I apologize for, for that. But in the same problem, I, I also felt like it was an important question to ask because I think that's important. It's important to discuss to a certain degree and to kind of— I want, you know, as, you know, everyone who's listening to feel like this, like this is okay to have these conversations, right? Like, you know, it is okay to discuss these things and it's okay to feel, you know, whatever your feelings are and to feel validated in having whatever those feelings are, right? So that's kind of why I wanted to touch on it just a little bit, because I think that, you know, again, you do come from a very, you know, it's a unique perspective, you know, living in New York City now, coming from the suburbs of Chicago, and having visited a lot of places in the country like you have, seen a lot of different communities. So kind of being able to speak from that perspective of, you know, being aware of your privilege right now and that that is— gosh, we're lucky, right? And that's, you know, I've said to so many people, like, I feel safer with Connor in New York City than, frankly, I would with you, you know, living in the city of Chicago right now, right? Which is a crazy statement to make, But so that's just, it's one of those, it's just one of those things. So that kind of actually like goes right into the last, the last thing that I wanted to talk about with you today because we were already hitting an hour, which is crazy.

Be fun to edit down.

I know. But so Connor wrote And correct me if I'm wrong about how I, how I named this class. One of Connor's classes that he had to take for this last semester, it was required for his major, for the engineering program, it's required that you take a writing intensive course, correct?

Yeah.

So you took this course that was— okay, I forget the name of it. It was about the AIDS epidemic, but it—

yeah, I mean, I was essentially like the focus was on the AIDS epidemic, but it's kind of like using the AIDS epidemic as a lens to examine kind of like, I don't know, just like larger themes in our culture and the way that we view progress. Um, so, yeah.

Okay. So Connor's final paper for this class, uh, I just got to read this week and Oh my gosh, I mean Connor's a very, very gifted writer anyway, and I do always love to read what he writes because it's, you know, it's a unique perspective and it's always very well thought out and very well written, which you all know that I'm big on being the grammar nerd and my kids all have always made fun of me because I do always read their papers with a red pen. It's weird, but anyway, it's useful. Yes, there's something about that. But anyway, this paper, not only is it so extraordinary from a technical viewpoint, I learned so much. And I learned— so Connor wrote his paper on Tom of Finland, which I I don't, you know, some of you may know who he was, um, as a, uh, queer artist and a queer erotic artist. I had no idea who he was, so I was very like, this was a huge learning thing for me to be like, oh wow, this fascinating. I mean, it's just like one more person where you're like, oh my gosh, the life that he lived and the path that he paved in a very, you know, small part of the world, right, of life. And so I found his whole story to be fascinating in and of itself. But what you wrapped in this was this whole discussion about rainbow capitalism, which, you know, you and Isabel and Grace have all you know, talked about. And I've, you know, Dad and I have both been like, hmm, like, what, what is this exactly? Like, I mean, I've, you know, you hear it and you kind of get the general gist of what it is. Right. But not until reading this paper did I have that like, aha moment of, oh, this is why it's kind of used with negative connotation. Because the initial, like, if you just say it, it's kind of neutral, right? Like, it's just describing.

Right, right, right.

But in reading this, I was like, oh, now I really understand why this is. I mean, you use the word insidious, which is a very strong word. But I think well used. So I could quote, but I can either quote or I'll give you the option. I can either quote your paper or you can, you can share with us kind of your thoughts on this because I found it to be very educational.

Thank you. Well, yeah, I mean, I guess I can talk a little bit about it, but I know that you found it. A good quote, and I'm sure that, you know, anything I say will be much better articulated through what I've written. So, and I guess I can, you know, kind of just at a base level kind of touch on that. But yeah, first of all, thank you, God. I'm always very grateful that you read and give very supportive feedback on the work I do. But yeah, it kind of started out as like my fascination with Tyler Finland, who's like, you know, essentially just like a very explicit pornographic artist, you know, who is particularly— I don't want to say inspirational, but like his work was particularly influential in kind of creating or giving, I don't know, it created kind of like a subculture within the queer community, within like the kink community. So it's like a very like specific part of queer history, Thomas and Mendez.

Yeah, it's like to be noted, just so people who don't know who he is, like this was like, we're talking like 40s, '50s, '60s, right?

Right.

And his art was drawing, right? He was a— that was his— I mean, he did it with the drawing, right?

Like he did, yeah, like charcoal drawings.

Charcoal, yes. Okay, so just to give context of what kind of art we're talking about here.

Yeah, yeah, I guess like a little more like, yeah, like, you know, I would say Google him, uh, you will, you know, check the images, you'll see some interesting stuff. Um, but like, you know, truly like is Yeah, just a very talented illustrator. Illustrator. Yeah. And, you know, his work, you know, kind of evolved over time and like, as, you know, laws, censorship and pornography distribution laws kind of changed, like he, you know, was kind of more mainstreamed. But anyway, like, I guess like the point that I focused on in the paper was kind of like, going from when he was alive, he passed in like the '90s, kind of like, I mean, more towards, I don't wanna say the middle of the AIDS epidemic, but like a decade or so, decade and a half after it started. But the kind of like, I was focusing more on like the postmortem kind of fame that he gained which is this very inauthentic kind of bastardization of his work that, you know, the whole premise of like rainbow capitalism, for those who don't know, it's essentially just like, you know, now that queer people are seen as productive members of society, like members of society they are now like a target market because, you know, they most of the time, you know, have more disposable income, less kids, you know, most of them don't have kids. Um, I don't say most, but like, you know, a larger percentage. Yeah. So anyway, it's like, you know, so it's like they're just seen as like a much more viable market to like, you know, um, advertise to. Um, it's like some like really clear examples are, you know, one that are most cited Or like if you go to a Pride parade today, that's one of the sad things is like I never got to experience like an authentic Pride. And that's like, you know, 'cause like now when you go to a Pride parade, and for those of you who've been, I'm sure you've experienced this, but like a predominant amount of like the floats and the stuff that are coming through are, you know, advertisements for, you know, people running for mayor, you know, Chase Bank, you know, JP Morgan, Groups that have no business being there and have no general actual desire to engage with or to support the LGBTQ+ community. It's strictly just like another money grab for them. Another example being like if you look during the month of June, Pride Month, all these companies will now, they'll change their logos, they change their slogans to be rainbow and like rainbow adjacent. But, you know, come July 1st, it's nothing to be seen. So it's like, you know, it's this very like, it's not actual support, it's just a cash grab. So anyway, sorry, kind of long, drawn out explanation. But, you know, I tied it back to it's the way that they kind of like the country of Finland and also some the Museum of Modern Art in Los Angeles, a couple other places have kind of like, they've co-opted his work and they've made it into this commercially viable thing. So like, you know, they're taking these like explicit pornographic drawings, which holds extreme like cultural value to, you know, queer communities. And they've turned them into fucking like postage stamps and bags of coffee. And beach towels and stuff that are like, you know, they're sold at like the fucking supermarket in Finland. And, you know, mind you, it's like, it's not just that it's like they've taken the drawings, it's like they've taken the drawings and they've taken out all of the, like, the pornographic elements and these, like, the overtly sexual themes from it. So it's like, it's just like this, you know, so I say like bastardized version of his work. Of Thomas Finnan's work. And, you know, the overall significance of it is like, it's not to say that, like, you know, this is the worst thing that's ever happened. It's just to, like, highlight the fact that, like, this is something that's very common. And, like, I don't know where I was going with that, but it's just like, you know, rainbow capitalism sucks, businesses suck, and Well, I think it's just a great statement on like being aware, right?

Like the awareness of— and it's the awareness of the intention, um, and, and the meaning behind, behind different actions, right? Because, um, you know, another, another word that, you know, I I think we're all starting to hear a lot of is performative, right? And really understanding what that means. And I think especially, you know, for, for my generation, right? So we, as, you know, Gen Xers, are trying to understand, like, what does this mean? And, and I think, you know, many of us come from this place of, like, we We want to do the right thing. We want to be— we are supportive. We are full of love and care, but doing it in a way that— so what does that mean exactly? What does that look like? And so I think this is such a great example of this. So here's this. This is just one sentence from your paper, but I thought this was like— this just so hit home for me because it really explained so much. So you said, Celebration of queerness in the public arena aren't for the benefit of queer people. They are performative measures designed for heterosexual people to feel cultured and accepting.

Ouch.

But wow. And good. I mean, and I know that wasn't, you know, that was like such a great way of explaining this. And for me, I was like the clarity that came from that, I was like, ah, I mean, first of all, I know, I know that's not toward me at all, but like it helped me like really understand. And, and I wanted to share that too. Um, just because I think a lot of this, you know, sometimes it's like, I don't, I don't understand it exactly. And I don't, am I doing that? Like, I don't wanna do that. And, um, so I just, I'm grateful to you for being able to articulate that in a way that just makes this very clear. And, and that is not to say that, you know, any celebration by a company or a heterosexual cisgendered person is, is not genuine and not supportive, right? There are like a million examples of those that are. This is simply pointing out those that aren't, and it feels kind of icky. So when you, you know, when you are watching things and you're like, this feels kind of icky, but I don't know why it feels icky. This is why it feels icky, right? It's, it's disingenuous and it's, you know, taking advantage of, and you know, this, this is like another example, right? Of just of this happening.

Yeah, exactly. It's not something that's like unique to the LGBTQ community. It's like any minority group.

Right. So I just think it's something I appreciate the fact that you were able to name it, right? You were able to articulate it and to share it in a way that, um, you know, it's just a piece of awareness of education. Um, so that everyone can be like, oh, okay. This is what I'm looking at. This is, you know, it's kind of a guiding, a good guide, right? Yeah.

Just like, you know, yeah. It's like, it's, it's bottom line, you know, it's like, it just like, you know, increasing like your awareness in general of these things and like how these like systems work and like, you know, it's been an incredible learning experience for me too. So like, I don't know. I just think like it is like, it's like a lesson that like can be applied to, you know, just truly like any, any group, any minority group, any like, you know, because there are just so many issues that are like happening in our world today to like all these different groups of people. And so it's like, you know, just kind of like, how can we best, how can I be of most support, service, whatever to this issue. And like, you know, at the bottom line is just like being self-aware of, you know, how you're engaging with that group, how you're not engaging with that group. Um, but yeah.

Okay, beautifully stated. Thank you. I mean, really I'm just so proud, and you're my kid. I just feel so lucky, and I feel so— this is such a— there are times where it's like almost surreal because I'm like, this is like, you know, how lucky are we that we get to have these cool conversations, right? And um, and I appreciate you doing this, you know, recorded and, and videoed so other people can, can learn from you. And, um, and I just— I'm grateful. I'm so grateful. So thank you.

I will say you've become quite the astute interviewer.

Um, have my skills improved?

Yeah, it's not to say that they were like, you know, bad before, but like, it's just, it's, you know, it's a very, it's very comprehensive understanding of how to keep the conversation going. So kudos to you. Well, thank you.

Um, thank you, darling. You know, so thank you. I've been studying, uh, you know listening, listening to how others do things and studying and learning. And, you know, as I've done this whole thing, is like learn by my mistakes all along.

So yeah, you've had a lot of practice.

I've had— I have had a little bit of practice for sure.

Yes.

Um, I guess that tends to be the way I do things. I jump in and then I learn as I go, right?

Yes, yes, yes. Well, free fall.

So yes. Oh my gosh. Well, is there anything that you would like to share or add or anything before we, before we wrap up today?

Um, no, I mean, it just, I guess, you know, I'm grateful for you having me on and expressing genuine interest about this stuff, cuz I know it is a lot. Of just me, like, talking about myself. I'm glad that, like, other people can find, you know, take— I don't know, connect to something I say. It is— it's cool. It's nice. It feels good. And, uh, yeah. Yeah.

All right. Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, my darling.

Of course.

And what an awesome way to kick off Pride, the official celebration of Pride, right?

Yes.

Awesome. Awesome.

Happy Pride, everyone.