Exploring Gender Fluidity: Lori’s Journey to Self-Acceptance | More Human More Kind

There we go. Um, so I typically do my, um, intros after I do the interview, um, because I just think it's more authentic to, you know, what we talk about and all that good stuff. So, um, I like doing it that way if that's okay. Of course. So I kind of— what I'll do is once we kind of decide we want to start we'll just like break in our talking and then we'll start up and go. Um, and anything can be edited out, anything, you know, if you're like, ooh, I really don't like that. Like I had the last person I interviewed, he emailed me like 2 days later, he was like, you know that one part we talked about this, can you just take that all out? Like, well, I've never had that request before, but yes, we can do that. Um, so just so you know, anything we can edit, change, take out— if you want to restart an answer, just be like, let's do that over again. Okay, so no pressure at all. Um, and I really just like to have a conversation, so it's not going to be me grilling you or asking, you know, a million like, you know, quick-fire questions. So, um, you know, I want to give you the opportunity to talk about— I love, I love just everything. When I was writing notes, I was like, oh, there's so many good things here.

Um, oh, thanks.

So I really just want you to have the opportunity, like, there's a lot that I want you to be able to share, and to— I think there's so many different, um, kind of nuances of your experience that people will be like, oh, um, I think it's going to be a very like, just people are good at— so many different people are going to be able to identify with you is what I'm, what I'm trying to say and what I'm thinking.

Yeah.

So I want you to be able to have the opportunity to really share all of that. Um, and, um, yeah, and if there's anything that we don't cover, just be like, hey, you know, I wanted to mention this, or let me know, and we'll, we'll just make it work right in there. Um, so that's totally fine. And then I try to, um, keep— I've been trying to keep myself a little bit shorter, so like right around 30 minutes, if that's okay with you as well.

Sure.

Okay, sure. Especially since you're not feeling great, you can always schedule a second interview.

We finish up conversations.

Well, and you know what, But I've done that before too, where it's— there's just been so much to talk about that it's really nice to be able to have like the first conversation and then like 6 months later, like, oh, let's do a follow-up. So I'm not at all opposed to that. Um, and I think too, when people start asking questions, like when they hear the first episode and they're like, wait, I need to know, you know, this, this, and this. So yeah.

How long until your episode comes out, um, usually?

So right now I've been dropping them in between. I'm doing my solo series, um, so I've been dropping them in between. So this will probably come out in 4 weeks.

Okay.

Yeah. Is that okay?

Yeah, that just gives me an idea, um, on what things I have happening if I happen to drop some of that information in, what's going on around that time that it would be coming out.

Awesome. Yes. Um, oh, and that reminds me too, I don't— and maybe I did and I was just a while ago— um, headshot, bio, anything that you want me to promote, um, and in my show notes and, and social media. All that good stuff.

Okay, I don't remember if I have your email. Um, can you put it in the chat?

Yep. Okay, I have, uh, when I do things through, um Podmatch, I often forget to like— it doesn't necessarily go the same way the rest of mine do, so I forget to like sort of send out the— like, here's all the stuff that I need.

Um, so there we go.

Awesome. Okay, um, So the way I'll start is I will just say, you know, I'm so glad you're here, and I'll kind of tee it up to you first to just share a little bit about who you are, kind of if you want to look like a broad, like, this is who I am, this is why I'm here type of thing, and then we can just take it and go from there.

Okay.

Okay.

Were there any topics in particular that you were hoping to hit on?

Yes. Um, let me open up and get my notes open. Um, okay, so there are a couple things actually that I loved that you in your notes, um, that I'm curious about. So the coming in is more important than coming out. I am so curious about what you mean about that. Um, and then, you know, one thing that I talk about a lot too is how to deal with homophobic homophobic family members, so I'd love to hear your thoughts on that as well. Um, and then how does one know? And I think especially like you had listed polyamorous, um, but then with pansexual, like some of like these, you know, talking about the gender and sexuality spectrum. So I think that some people just don't know, right?

Yeah, it's true.

And right, unless you do what we do and are who we are, then you don't, right?

Unless you're deep diving into everything.

Yeah, exactly. Or have a kid who is, right? So I think that these are, these are questions that I get asked all the time. Like, I do not— like, just from my friends, they're like, please explain this again. Like, I, I get it, right? So I would love to have you kind of give your, like, you know, talk about that. Um, so those are my, my, my 3 big ones that I was like, ooh, I like that.

All right, sounds good.

Yeah. Is there anything else that you would like to, to add to that?

I'm really open to things flowing. I just was curious where we were going.

I understand. It's good to kind of have a general idea of the direction.

Yeah.

Um, so, okay. No problem. I will keep an eye on our clock and then we will go ahead and get started. So, Laurie, thank you so much for being here today. I am so glad that we are finally getting to have this conversation and just really excited to pick your brain and to learn more about what you do and your journey and to how you started doing what you're doing. So thank you so much for being here today.

Oh, thank you for having me. Truly, when I saw your podcast pop up as something that could be interesting for me to listen to, I was like, wow, we have so much that we could discuss together. Truly, you know, the journeys that you've been on, the people that you're serving and helping, it's so, uh, so in line with what I'm I try to contribute to as well. And that is just so nice to meet somebody else out there that is serving this community.

Truly agreed. I agreed. It is always nice to come across someone you're like, oh, you, you know what I do.

You get it. You get it. We have the same brain speak.

Exactly. Exactly. It's so nice. And there's not ever— I mean, we are kind of few and far between, but not one of us has like the exact same experience. So it is really cool, I think, to have these conversations too, because this is how we keep learning, right?

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, um, I am a gender and sexuality holistic life coach. I am also a teacher and I have, uh, gone to college and furthered my education and got my master's in psychology specializing in gender and sexual fluidity. And what I had originally intended was to serve my school system in a way that hasn't been met, in sort of helping, uh, contribute to the SEL, uh, social-emotional learning programs and create GSAs or create trainings for the staff. And I found that there was a bigger need for the community one-on-one and for outside of the schools where people were looking for extra supports. Yes, there's a need in the schools, but when I was coming across, um, people that were looking for, for help, for community, for others out there that were going through the same things as them, I saw that there was a need for things in my community for people to meet up for education, for training parents on what is happening with their child, or for helping create connections between people that are either coming out or have been out and are dealing with what we call minority stress. That's, um, the different stigmas and homophobic experiences or transphobic experiences or the overall things we come across through the day that we kind of hold our breath through and at the end of the day feel fully and weigh on us. So seeing all of that happening around me, I felt that it would be great to take my education and my experiences and go and serve the public in my community. So I'm in New Jersey, and you— when we see in the news that New Jersey seems like it's a very progressive state, I'm in the northwestern section where it's very rural, and there is a lot of laws that are trying to get pushed through, like in all the other states, that are very anti-gay, very, uh, don't say gay, if you will. And there's not a lot of nonprofits or supports in this particular county that I'm in, so the county above me and near me, that little corner there, that's where I'm trying to really get a lot of my programming that's in-person happening because there really isn't anything around us. And I'm serving virtually all over as well.

Right.

Of course, because there's a lot of people out there that could use some help.

Yeah.

But specifically with my own personal experience, because I believe you asked about that, I am a later in life learner. Lesbian, also later in life genderfluid lesbian or non-binary, the big umbrella term. Right. And that simply means that for the gender aspect anyway, that I find myself very fluid. I find myself internally as well as how I express externally myself going and swaying between masculine and feminine, not always all the way, not on either ends. It's usually close to either ends and going back and forth between. So some days I will wake up and I'll just be feeling very much like a masculine energy running through me, that I want the world to see me as that and refer to me as that. And then there are times when I wake up and I'm just like really embracing my more feminine side, and I will want the world to talk to me and express and be with me as though I am on that feminine side of the spectrum. And then there are times when I just want to be both, and I don't want anyone to recognize me as either one. It's a very roller coaster ride, if you will. Yes, it can go for a month or two like that, or a day or two like that, and it really is very, very fluid. Um, and as far as lesbian aspects, I find myself very interested in relationships and very attracted to people that are identifying as a woman. So that for me was a very much more difficult realization to come to than it was for my gender. So I already was sort of non-conforming to begin with. I didn't realize that, um, some of the ways that I was interacting with people, uh, would have felt more comfortable if I was, um, discussed in a— and in I don't want to say interpreted, but experienced the way I was feeling internally, that it would have been more comfortable and make me feel happier. But the harder thing for me to realize was that I can be in a relationship with a woman, and it's okay to be in a relationship with a woman, and that I even was attracted to women in general. Like, that whole aspect of me um, just was ignored for the longest time and just pushed aside as a fad. Or how do I put this? My family would, um, would refer to it as like a passing phase, like a phase, right? And people around me would call it girl crushes. So it was kind of belittled or gaslit in a way, because you're, you're starting to discuss with people that you feel comfortable with, like, oh, isn't that an interesting person? I wonder what that person would be like if they asked me out. And then you'd be told, what are you talking about? Don't be silly. You're interested in guys. You've been dating guys. And so I'd be like, oh yeah, that's right. You know, don't worry about it. Like, I don't know what I was talking about. It's just a girl crush, you know, go away.

Instead of holding that space for that possibility.

Yes, that wasn't even considered a possibility. It was my own intuition about what I was feeling wasn't allowed to be explored, expressed, played around with, um, fantasized about in any way, shape, or form, explored as an identity. So that identity phase, that formation of who we are, truly happens when we're kids. And is explored all the way through our 20s. So we've got this huge section of our life that is our identity formation. And during that whole section of our life where we're like, am I interested in soccer? Do— what's religion? Do I like— what kind of personality do I feel most comfortable expressing? Who are my friends? And who is— what is the career that I'm interested in? All those things that we see as what makes us up, who we are, includes how we express our gender, how we feel about our gender, how we feel about our relationships, both friendships, uh, people that we align with coworker-wise, people that we align with in our family, people that we align with as mentors, people that we align with in hand-holding and kissing, you know, right, that we want to feel love with and love instead of a friendship love, an actual romantic love. So that whole section of our life, if we are a being, um, looking for role models or being able to express with our family and validated, then we can really truly form that. But if we're not being validated in that, then we're kind of getting that feeling like, well, then maybe this isn't something that I should be doing. It's not safe. It's going to get me pushed out of my family groups, my friend groups. I'm not going to explore that now. And then it comes out later on. That's what happened to me. It came out later on when I finally was able to safely explore that in some way, shape, or form and have the confidence to be like, this is actually something I am interested in. I don't know what you're talking about. Like, I really am interested in this, right? Yeah. So then I came out later in life and shocked everybody except for yourself, right? For myself.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. I am curious because I love the way that you, um, said all of that and expressed all of that because it makes it so very clear that there are all these different pieces, right? And a lot of times, and I'm sure you found this too with people that you talk to, like there's kind of this panic, like when it was kind of talking about when people's children come out in whatever capacity it is, and parents tend to panic if their child's, you know, first comes out, let's say, as gay, but then they're like Well, maybe, you know, maybe I'm also gender fluid. Maybe I'm also trans. Maybe I'm also— right. And they're like, well, wait, they can't change their mind. Like they already said that they're this, so it has to be this. And there's this piece of like, this is a very fluid process. And that doesn't mean that it's a phase. That doesn't mean they don't know. What it means actually is I— and I'm wondering if you can give a little insight on this, but to me, My thinking is that it's like there's a space that's been given to them that's safe enough where they feel like they can.

Yes.

Take a moment to explore. But I wonder if you could expound on that a little bit.

I, I love that you mentioned that, like, you've— the family has created that safe space for them, and that's something to be celebrated. The fact that they— your child is coming to you, first of all, is huge. Huge in the safe space that you've created for your child. And then on top of it, that they feel safe enough to be like, ah, hold on a second, parental unit guardian of the galaxy, I am so also interested in all these other things here, you know. And the fact that, that your child is wanting to run this by you, get your validation, get your feedback, get your 'this is also safe' Right. Is huge growth for you and your child's connection and will go very, very far in their life. I, I can't even express how happy that makes me that people are saying that this is happening and that my child is also changing their minds and that I'm giving them that space. But come, like, help me feel good about this, please. And they're seeking support.

Right.

Like, that's also something to be celebrated, that you're seeking support for yourself outside of, you know, your child trying to be that support for you. Because I see that happening sometimes too, where they're like, are you okay? Are you okay? What can I do more? And the child's like, hold on a second, your anxiety is giving me anxiety. Exactly.

Oh my goodness.

Hold on a second, I'm happy you want to know how I can— you need to support me, but Slow down a second. I'm still figuring that out for myself.

Right.

Just wanted to share this, be validated. Now you go find somebody else to get that support, and I will continue to play with all my cool things that came to me in the mail that are all LGBTQ.

Right, exactly. I will continue hanging all of my different flags in my room and being absolutely adorable as I go on this journey. Right, exactly. Exactly. Oh my gosh. Yes.

Celebrate the journey. I feel like needs to be this tagline that goes out everywhere because it is a journey. Childhood all the way through young adulthood is a huge roller coaster ride in so many areas of their life.

Right.

There, you'll celebrate when they're getting interest in different kinds of sports. You'll celebrate when they're getting interested in different hobbies. You'll celebrate when they're changing up friendships and making stronger, better connections that they had before. You'll celebrate when they get— when they are expressing interest in different kinds of careers, when they get their first crush, when they're going through all these different things. So why not celebrate that they are comfortable enough to explore their different gender and romantic relationship interests and that they feel safe doing that?

Exactly, exactly. Thank you. I mean, that is I think it— and I love— I'm just— I think it's so important that we say this out loud. You said it out loud, that I say it out loud, that we all like are saying this because the more that people— I think people are just afraid. Like there's all this, so much fear and understandably so, especially right now. Right. But just to be like, oh, this is, this is the way it's supposed to work. Like this is no different than any other change that's, you know, that's going on and growth that's going on in their lives at this point. Yeah. So just to—

absolutely. I mean, there— it's understandable where the panic comes from, having all like the things that we see come through on our social media or the things that we hear about in our community. And I— so I want to validate the panic that sometimes happens.

Sure.

Um, those, those things can feel very scary to where you want to make sure that your child's not going to experience depression, make sure your child's not going to experience any sort of negative stigma and that they feel like they can't explore that identity. I get that. But we also have to make sure that they feel okay to explore all the identities, not just the first one that they come across.

Right.

And then perhaps take it back, walk it back and then go back to it again. It's, it's kind of like when they're learning to swim. If your child has ever tried to experience that, they'll dip their toe in the water, test out the temperature, maybe they'll splash around a bit, and then all of a sudden they'll be like, whoa, I just sucked up some water when I went under. I'm never doing this again. Hold on. And they'll go back in again. You know, like we're giving them that chance to, to feel the, the temperature. To see what it's all about, take that step back if they need to, and then they'll feel stronger when they go and embrace what they feel is their correct identity for themselves.

Right, right.

And it is normal for it to change, not so far from where they started, right, you know, but it is normal for it to sway a little bit because gender and sexuality are fluid. Even for the heterosexual couple, even for the person who is feeling very cis in their gender or very, very straight, there will be things that can come up through their lifetime where they want to explore it for a bit, right? Or might not have aligned with the way they were when they were younger. And that is also completely normal because it is a fluid spectrum where you can be anywhere on that big wheel of gender and sexuality, right?

Well, and I think kind of to your point too, like, you know, when you're young, you don't necessarily, um, I think for especially so, so many of us who are a little bit older, who there was such a binary, and so it was very difficult to be able to— if it was outside of the binary, binary in any way, like, well, what is this? What is this feeling? Well, I'm not quite sure. I can't really like figure it out. So I'm just going to put it away. I'm going to shelve it, right? And as languaging and understanding became more and more available, then it was like, oh, that's what that is, right? Like, now I can kind of connect into that and and get a better understanding of what that is. And I think it's so important, you know, it's kind of breaking through the binary, right? And looking at it as more of a spectrum, which, you know, is, I think, a much better way to look at both gender and sexuality because it's not on a binary. It is very much on a spectrum. And any person, and to your point, any, you know, even if you are straight cisgender, it's still on a spectrum. Like, that still is— where you are is different than your, you know, whether it's spouse or friend or whatever, right?

So how you experience your straight cis feeling is different than how your neighbor experiences it, and different how your spouse, if you have one, experiences it. The fact that we have had so many more researchers in psychology and biology and sociology, all of those, all those researchers joining together and sharing their knowledge, were able to come up with a better language, a better way to explain how we experience our sexuality, how we experience our romantic interests, how we experience our identity formation. How we experience our gender internally and externally, and how we want society to see us. Like, there's just so many more nuances, right? And the fact that they've been able to form language for that means that they're able to create better way of documenting it in their research too. And so when we, when we hear, at least when I hear families or people in general just coming up to me being like, I don't understand why this was like so different than how it was when I was younger. You know, those older generations coming up to me and being like, we didn't have this when we were younger. Well, we, we didn't experience, uh, a lot of things the same as when you were younger because society changes, because research grows, right? Because we're able to, to change our language to match how we're feeling, because there's more people coming out talking about it and we're able to validate it now.

Right.

Because we didn't have characters in our books that looked like us when we were little. You know, those— all those, all those little nuances. Yeah, it's supposed to change. We're supposed to grow as a society.

It's part of evolving, right? It's part of evolving and growing, which is so vitally important for survival. Um, so I, and I know this is something too that you, you do talk about the spectrum a lot, which I, I love, um, that you really touch on this and, and do have such a lovely way of explaining it. Um, when— are there any, um, articles or books or, you know, any kind of media that you point people to when they're really kind of wanting to understand more about this.

Yeah, there is a researcher, her first name is Sari, I have to remember if I mind myself of her last name, um, and she is the— it's a theory that she has created as— I'm trying to remember the name of it right now because I'm a little sick and my brain's a little foggy.

Um, And we can come back to it too, um, or if you want—

I think it was SRT's, uh, or something like that. But she describes gender and sexuality as a funnel, and she has this unique way of explaining it and showing it to people. So I tend to give her cartoon book that she has out because she has something very free to the public, and people can go through the map and see how their culture, how their kinks, how their relationship partners, how their religion, how their interests with how somebody looks, their interest in how someone's personality is, their lack of any of this, how they feel about their gender and how they want to express their gender in a romantic relationship versus in a sexuality. Experience, and you can map yourself on this funnel. It's very cool. She uses it to help herself, uh, with her research and has published it as a way for researchers to better identify the participant from their perspective in the research so that you're able to better classify which— how people are feeling and expressing various things. Right. And I have it saved on my computer.

That's okay, you, you can share it with me and I'll, I'll put it in the show notes. You can just— yeah, it'll be in the show notes, everyone. Just, just, just hang in there. Just— this will make you go to the show notes. So, oh my gosh, that's so cool. I figured you had something that was, um, because this is such a something that people have so many questions about. And I think I'm just really wanting to understand and have such, um, curiosity, and which is lovely. So I always feel like when somebody's really curious and they're asking a lot of questions, like, I want to be able to direct them to, you know, even a greater body of work or another way to like really learn, another way to process the information and spend time with and sit and go back with.

Right.

Yeah, right.

I love that.

Yeah, no, go ahead.

I love that she created it in a cartoon format. It's, it makes it easy for people to digest these difficult concepts.

Oh my goodness, right? I mean, nothing better than a good graphic novel. I mean, we, we all love them. That's so awesome. Um, okay, so there are a couple more things that I wanted to hear from you before. So I love— so one of the things that you, um, and we're talking a little bit about in, um, in your notes that I was reading was the idea of coming in is more important than coming out. And I am so curious about what you mean by that.

Understanding yourself, like admitting to yourself that this is something that you're feeling and that it's okay. Having that self-compassion with all of what's happening within you, both the turmoil of feeling conflict against how you were raised or against what your expectations were for yourself. Maybe they were put upon you, maybe you put it upon yourself. Then also validating it for yourself that this was hard or not so hard. Maybe it was easy, but it's hard to say it out loud. Just whatever those internal processes that are happening within you as, as you're discovering that if it's about you and your child, that your, your expectations towards your child, maybe it's how your child is feeling, their expectations for you towards themselves. Having that compassion and admitting to yourself that that's there, and then admitting to yourself that this is happening, then being able to express it. It's really important that you're feeling it within and that you're loving yourself and that you're accepting yourself and that you're accepting that life is going to be a roller coaster ride. It's going to have its ups and downs and whatever stage of that ride you're in right now, eventually it'll come to a smooth ending and it'll work out. So coming in is a huge important part of the process. And if you never feel comfortable talking about it with every family member and every friend, that's okay. But if you're able to live it within yourself and be authentic to yourself, that's so important.

Yeah. That's the most important.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Okay, I love that. I was wondering, because I talk so much about, um, the CAS model for coming out, and because I love the way that that really kind of breaks it down, especially— I mean, I— there's for coming, you know, for the person coming out, but there's kind of like a separate, like, coming out for parents. And so this works really well into that of like kind of that whole idea of like pausing, the self, you know, the self-compassion of just like giving yourself that moment to like check in and be like, oh, this is where I am. And that's— I love that. Thank you.

Absolutely. Yeah, I, I did a lot of research on how self-compassion builds resiliency and how self-compassion is one of the key components in not just resiliency but being happy and authentic. And so that for me was that piece that needs to be spoken more about. People embrace the person who's coming out because they want them not to be scared to be themselves, right? But sometimes it really is unsafe to be out. Not— there are valid concerns with needing to be careful with who you're around as your authentic self when you are an underrepresented member of the community that has laws against your— who you are. And so this concept of coming in, really embracing that, and finding yourself to be okay with who you are will help you know better where you can be yourself and be good with that, but then also be good with not being out in certain areas if you can't, because you're still okay with who you are regardless of whether you're able to be who you are in that space.

That— and that is so key, right? So you're able to hold that for yourself, um, or hold that for your loved one, whoever it is, and know that just because you or they are not able to like say it to every person they walk by or express it even in, you know, the way that they're dressing or the way that they're speaking or the way that, you know, any of these things, um, that doesn't mean that they're not or you are not who you are, right? So I love that because I think that's something again right now that's so very important for everyone to understand and embrace because it's not safe a lot of places. In fact, I'll tell you the story. I yesterday, I was talking to somebody and it was right now, I think I'd mentioned this to you beforehand, but I'm in Florida right now with my mother-in-law and my kids, spring break. And I was talking to person, and she is a person of color, female, and lesbian. And we were talking about what I do, and I said— and she's just down here for a time, she's from New York City, Brooklyn. So we were like laughing because I'm like, oh my gosh, that's where Connor is, and you know, we love New York and all this. So anyway, I was like, aren't you nervous to be down here? Because frankly, I was a little apprehensive about coming down here with my daughter and, um, and just like on high alert, like Total mama bear, high alert, right? And she said, you know, I— yes, I have been very, very nervous about it. And she said, you know, the other day I was in someplace and somebody was hitting on her. And she said, you know, you know, sorry, not interested. I'm a lesbian. And he was like, oh, and like, not at all put off. She's like, if you followed me outside and was like, you need to be very, very careful. He was like, and I don't mean that in like I'm being scary kind of way. I mean, like, in a very protective kind of way. 'You've got to be very, very careful down here.' And I was like, wow, wow. And how kind.

Yeah, right?

Like, that kind of renewed—

like, kind of a little bit of a creepy way, but how come?

I was like, that could have broken bad in like 12 different ways. I mean, I really was like, actually, we're brave to— like, there was a lot of bravery going on there. But also like, oh, I, as like a mom, I kind of wanted to be like, okay, Can we just like regroup and, you know, um, but that is so— it's just, I think, such a statement of where we are right now. And, and for, you know, for whether it's us or our loved ones who are trying to figure out how do I navigate this, especially if I go from an environment that is very safe to an environment that is not quite as safe, right? Um, so, you know, I talk to Connor about this all the time. Like, you live in New York City. In New York City, you— nobody takes a second look at you, right? Like, you are good. You've got your people. You're good. Other places, you have to be careful, even if you are traveling with your people, because It's not that safe. I mean, potentially less safe. So, you know, I think these are just— it's important to have these very real conversations.

Yes. Having these conversations can be very empowering in general, and they feel very scary at first because you might not have had to ever have conversations like this with your children.

Right.

If you are of, um, an underrepresented ethnicity group or race group, you had conversations already at, by this point, with your children about how race and religion and ethnicity impact you with various aspects of the environment around you. And now you're layering on gender or sexuality. But for those who are not of that underrepresented population, as a parent, as a guardian, you're going to be looking at your child for the first time with all this panic about society, right? And so the conversation is new to you and it's difficult, but it becomes very powerful conversation and, and opens up other conversations that can be difficult as well that no longer have to be so difficult because you started that conversation about safety and about the reality, and you're recognizing and validating the reality so they're no longer um, no, now they're not as afraid to come to somebody, but also to know how to handle themselves in these spaces. They're prepared, right?

Exactly. And I think that— I mean, that's the most, the most important thing, right? Just kind of knowing. And that, again, to your point, like, not so that everybody walks around in fear all the time, but it's that just being aware and knowing who you, you know, what to do, right?

Yeah. How to be safe in those spaces.

Correct. Correct. So, okay, we have just a couple more questions and a couple more minutes, and I have still like so many things to ask you. We might have to do a part 2. So I'm going to give you your choice. It's choice time of questions because I'm—

Showtime, got it, right?

I know we're down to like the whatever they want to call it.

Yeah.

Okay, so two topics that I just love, but I know that you're— you have such awesome thoughts on, um, how to deal with homophobic family members or homophobic people in general Um, or how does one know if they are polyamorous or pansexual or, um, kind of any sexuality or gender identity that's outside of LGBT?

Okay, so both of those could be like hour-long conversations in and of themselves. Just so you're aware.

Well, yes. I mean, I figured I was going to be getting these like, here's the surface answer and then we can dig deep. Well, this, this will definitely give us a reason to have part 2. But I'll let you, you know, let's, let's tee up some curiosity. How about that?

Oh, okay. Curiosity. You know what? There will be much more suspense with the polyamorous versus pansexual aspect. All right, that is a very hot topic right now of interest, and I love that every now and then you'll find somebody in a TV show that comes out as polyamorous or pansexual or some other, uh, what people consider new agey, but it's really just language that's finally been developed.

Correct.

There are things that have always been there. I mean, you look to the indigenous populations, you'll find all of this has been around since the dawn of time and with language and embraced as being closer to the gods, if you will. And, um, yeah, we're looking at it as it's all new agey. It is not woo-woo. It is not, uh, oh gosh, I had somebody respond, trendy, not trendy. But I also, like, I posted So I'm doing this parent empowerment circle as well as like these confidence circles and these identity circles. And it's just education and group coaching and empowerment with your peers that are going through the same thing as you. And so I'm advertising it. Yes. Come to, come to my website.

Yeah.

Oh, we'll send you people there.

No worries.

But I was posting an advertisement about it and I had comments like, this is pseudoscience. And I'm just like, I'm— they're like, you're— I hate that there's so many people out there that are just pushing their agenda and it's all negative and that I'm making these things up. And I'm just looking at that and I'm like, so I just spent how much money on my master's in gender and sexuality and all this evidence-supported research that I can make things up, right?

So, hmm. No, yeah, I mean, there it is, historical fact. No, it is well done.

It's very well documented. Yeah. Oh my goodness.

Oh my goodness.

But, um, polyamory is not a gender, it's not a sexuality, it is a relationship style, a relationship format, and it's a way of people expressing their love, and it does not mean only of sex in general. Like, it's not just for erotic play. It's not— some people that are polyamorous do not express any eroticism in it at all. Uh, it is not a way of being various gender expressions, although there are people who are polyamorous who are on the gender spectrum and do like that as part of a way of them being able to be themselves better. That is not what it's for. Polyamory is definitely not for the monogamous person to explore and cheat either. And polyamory is definitely expressed differently amongst each polyamorous person. It is a word that is used to describe being able to love openly and fluidly more than one person. So if you're monogamous, you're in a relationship, and you can have various types of sexual experiences in your monogamous relationship. You could have friends that you're very close with that makes you maybe feel like you have more than one partner that you're intimate with, but you're holding space with you and your partner as this tight-knit group that makes these promises with each other that you're going to be together in it as the only romantic love interest.

Okay.

With polyamory, you have more than one partner that you are romantically or intimately relating with, and you could have various strengths within that too. So you might have one person that you see occasionally, but you have a very intimate relationship with that's very deep. You might have a relationship that you see all the time. You might have one person that you live with. You might not live with any of your partners, and they come and stay with you occasionally. So there's different ways that you are expressing your love with more than one partner. There are also polyamorous people that don't have more than one partner. They have one partner that they're very— tight with, and they may be in and out of other relationships over periods of time and might be going for long periods of time without another partner because they haven't found someone that they really felt that close with, but they know they're capable of it, right? So we have to be very careful with assuming that people are monogamous whether just with one partner. However, they're very just kind of like how we can't assume that somebody who is in, uh, a relationship with either the same gender as the one they identify with or a different gender than the one they identify with is bisexual or not. It's the same concept, right?

Okay, I was just gonna say that. I was just gonna ask, um, because I think that is such a, um another one that is more common right now where people just kind of make that assumption. And if someone is, you know, if they do happen to be in relationship with someone who is of the opposite gender, that then there's this, well, how can you possibly be, right? Well, it's all about understanding So I think this is part of the education, right? Part of having this conversation, um, is just to give a better understanding and, and, and kind of that space to be like, oh, to really ponder it and to process that and to just kind of add it to— you're like, oh, this is, this is possible, right?

Right. So somebody can be pansexual and in a polyamorous relationship or a monogamous relationship or an open relationship, there is the very— there's a wide umbrella of ways that we can be expressing our partnerships as well as our sexuality, as well as our gender, as well as our eroticism, our romanticism, our intimacy levels. We are human, and in our human experience, it's vast and varied and does not need to be defined by anyone but ourselves. So you can use these labels, you cannot use these labels. I find the labels are helpful when explaining to people how I— when I need to, but I also don't like being put in a box. So I can totally understand why people might want to push away the labels, right? For the, the being able to explain what people are going through right now, you can use the label polyamorous if you're feeling as though you're able to hold space and love intimately more than one person. Mhm. And that could be at the same time over time, with how, how you want to live with one and maybe love another from a distance. There's different ways you can express that, and it's very difficult to work through a polyamorous relationship. So if the— for people who are concerned that that's a way for somebody to be able to cheat, it is not the easy way. For sure, first of all, right? And if somebody is wanting to cheat, they're not really holding true love and romantic interests in both those people because they're being dishonest with one of them. That's not a healthy way to hold a relationship. So they're not, they're not actually being polyamorous when they're cheating, right?

Right.

And there's more coming soon on a podcast near you.

That's right. And with that, we are going to leave you all sitting on the edge of your seats. We'll be back with more in a couple of months. You're gonna have to wait.

I'll even share with you my experiences going through all of this. So come back again.

Okay, well, we're definitely— we will definitely do this again. You all are just gonna have to wait for more detail. This was like the surface, like we kind of, you know, we skimmed the surface.

We did, we did.

Next time we're gonna swim. Um, next time we're gonna get water up our noses.

Absolutely.

Oh my gosh, well, thank you, thank you. This was so fun, and I'm just— I learned so much today, and I love that. So thank you.

Oh yay, it was fun talking with you.

Yes, and we will— everything will be in the show notes and in social media and all over the place. And so everyone, you know, you all can learn how to find Lori, how to work with Lori. How to follow Lori, how to learn more. So we are all good.

Great seeing you all.