Just Breathe: Parenting Your LGBTQ Teen with Annie Henderson | More Human More Kind

Okay.

All right. So do you have any questions before we start?

I don't think so.

Okay, great. Then Annie, I would like to welcome you to Just Breathe. I'm so happy that you're here today, and I am really excited about the conversation that we're gonna have and for everyone to hear about what you do and who you are in this world, because we just had such a fun conversation a few weeks ago. And, um, and I'll share later in the conversation what, what Annie gave me the courage to do. But I am so delighted that you're here and would love to just start with kind of you sharing a little bit about who you are and what you do.

Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Heather. Yeah, I loved our conversation. I could just do that for a long time and lose track of the day. So I appreciate you and your energy and everything that you do. Oh, so my story. Goodness. I do have a kiddo. I'm going to hop all around. Is that okay?

Absolutely. Yes.

I do have a kiddo that has come out to me as pansexual. So I, I appreciate what you do and what you offer. Um, being someone that lives in a smallish town, I know that the people that I work with and just even ourselves, that we can be in this bubble and not have a lot of representation or people going through the same thing. And when that happens, we just kind of shove worries and fears and important conversations down. So I like what you provide to people, just that warm, um, safe place to grow and share and, and learn a better way to do things.

Thank you very much. I appreciate that.

Yeah, so my story, um, I grew up, um, being an excellent people pleaser, just doing everything I thought I was supposed to do. If I go way, way back, I, I do remember a more confident Annie that didn't care yet. Like, I just wanted to play sports and hang out with my brothers, and that was it. I was just who I was. Um, so I'm thinking maybe around, maybe around middle school is when things started to change, right? People start to grow up, um, guys start to ask people out on dates, and I was a, okay, yes, I was just yes. And I didn't really even realize my— whereas my partner, um, is— knew when she was 5 that she was gay. I was oblivious. I was just Annie, and I was just living my life. And I don't, you know, I— my kiddo introduced me to the term demisexual are you aware of that? Right? So, yes, more of a relationship, more of a, you know, I wasn't like just noticing an attraction to everybody or like, oh, I can— nope, it was very much I need to build and develop that relationship. Um, so that— I don't know if that played a part in me just being kind of oblivious and going through the motions and doing what I was supposed to do. I was raised Catholic, had lots of Southern Baptist friends. And really, you know, I heard the only thing— times I heard about being gay was probably, you know, church and maybe talk shows. But at the time, talk shows, they were not pro-gay. It was, you know, what it says in the Bible and so far, sorry for your family, and this is happening. It was just like a tragedy. So even though I don't think my parents ever, you know, were like, don't do this, it was just kind of in, in the community and church and just implied, right? Um, so yeah, I dated lots of guys because they would ask, and I didn't— as a people pleaser, you don't want to hurt anybody.

You just say yes, yes, yes.

Okay, okay, sure. So it was just that, like, nonstop. Once I would finally build up the courage to be like, okay, that's— this can end now, then like the next one would be there. And I was like, okay. Um, and eventually, uh, I got married at 19. Um, at the time, of course, you know, I thought I was grown up and I was ready. I was definitely ready to get out of my home because I think my mom was going through probably some depression and menopause and divorce. My dad had some undiagnosed mental illness, so all the things. But I was like, I'm ready to get out of this. I think I can do this better, you know. Um, so I did it, and I was the best little people pleaser wife, right? Not a lot of fights. And I hear this a lot with my clients, so I work with people pleasers and later in life lesbians. We usually have a nice model relationship. There's, you know, the guys that we marry are usually good guys, right? There's no abuse. There's, you know, all the reasons that we should stay. So I was married for 7 years. And didn't come out until after, you know, I checked all the boxes that I was supposed to, to lead to success, right? I went to college, we built a house, and I was married and had a career, went to grad school, had a kid. I did all the things like I was supposed to. You did. But something was still off and missing, right? I went to church. I did all the things. So for me, it was like a catalyst situation where someone came into my life and I was like, oh, okay, this is not friendship. I just thought we're gonna be great friends. So just that awakening. I know a lot of people use— a lot of my clients and people— and we grew up with the phrase midlife crisis, right? Which definitely has a negative connotation of like, you're having a breakdown, right? Get over it. Instead, I like the word awakening. Like, oh my gosh, like, I can see now. Like, this is interesting. This is a whole different world where I can say no and I can figure out who I am and what I like instead of just going along with what everyone has always told me to. Um, quickly learned about toxic relationships.

Uh-huh.

And yeah, and just because I came out doesn't mean my people pleasing would automatically go away. So that was something I had to, uh, figure out and go through a toxic relationship. And, you know, health-wise, this toxic relationship was actually, you know, less healthy than, than my marriage, right? I was out. So that, you know, in my head counteracted the, this is so much better, even though it's worse, it's better.

Right, right.

Um, So after that, it was, um, after that ended, and it was, you know, 3 to 4 years of just roller coaster. And, um, I think a lot of people pleasers also have that, oh, I wanna, I wanna fix, like, I can, I can be patient, I can handle it. People pleasers are used to putting themselves last, right? Taking things personally. So instead of, oh, this is an issue for you, it's Oh, what did I do wrong? Oh, I'll try better, right? I failed. I will try to fix it. So a lot of times just clinging to something for too long. Um, are you familiar with the phrase sunk cost fallacy?

No, actually.

It's a really good one. It's a really good one. And I, you know, not just in our niche but all over the place, people do this. And sunk cost fallacy has to do with I've already invested this, this many years to this relationship. I can't, I can't get out now. Like, I've already done the time. Or I've already put in this much money or time towards this degree. Well, I've got to do it even though I already know I don't want to do this. I, I have to. I've already put this much into, um, commitment and energy and time, right? So people like anyone listening right now, you can think of What's something I'm holding on to because I've invested time, energy, or money into it?

I think we all probably have something. Yes, at least one something, right?

Yeah. And I, I love that, you know, you do so much with parents because I think this is an important message that parents can pass on to their kids is if you're in something, right, don't feel like you have to keep doing it for so many years to prove that it's not the right thing. If you know that, okay, I, I shouldn't be married even though I've already planned this wedding, right? You can— there's— you can get out at any time that you realize that this is not for me. Whether it's a career, right? A lot of people do it with careers, right? They start making the money and then they have the bills and then they can't stop it even though It's, it's miserable.

Right, right.

So fast forward a little bit. I figured out who I was. I hung out with friends, just getting to be myself and not having— not in a relationship. So I got to see, like, make my own decisions. No, no. Where my balance was and what was me and what I was doing with other people. And then I met my my partner. So this year is, uh, 11 years. We've been together for 11 years, just easy and amazing. And, you know, those previous relationships, right, they weren't a waste or any of that. They were— they provide great contrast to my relationship now of, oh my gosh, this is healthy and it's easy and it, it's, it's passionate. And, you know, all the things. So it's just been so amazing. And then of course, I, um, I didn't say anything career-wise. This is all over the place, Heather. I appreciate it.

I love this.

Bear with me.

But wonderful.

My career path was education and psychology and then elementary school counselor, and then I was a therapist. And then back in 2019, I switched over to being a life coach. And I love it. I know everyone, you know, a lot of people love their jobs, but this is, this I'm pretty sure is the best, right? Just getting to, to help people. Um, one thing I love about coaching is that I don't have necessarily the, um, local limitations as I did when I was a counselor. Right. I'm able to have a client in Finland and Hawaii, and I've talked to people in South Africa. It's just, it's just limitless. So when you— people are in that bubble where they're like, there's no one that will understand me. Like, I'm— I wish, right? On TikTok, people are like, oh, I wish I was closer. And I'm like, well, you're in luck, right? You don't even have to be closer. So love, love the internet, love what it provides, right?

I mean, that is definitely one of the, the best benefits is that it brings, it brings people closer and it gets rid of that isolation, which, oh my goodness, so, so huge. And, um, you know, and what both of us do and, and all, you know, the people that we work with and the people that we know. And so that is just, that is amazing. And I had so many thoughts come up as you were talking because I'm like, oh yes, yes, people pleasing. Everybody raise your hand if you're a people pleaser or were a people pleaser at some point, right? Recovering people pleaser.

Recovering.

Um, and I think I love you know, stories like yours, because I think that it gives, um, it gives people permission to take a minute and be like, wait a second, I can do that, I'm allowed to do that. Um, you know, I'd never heard that phrase before, the sunken cost fallacy, but fallacy, yeah, how— I mean, that's so very true. And, um, and Certainly something that I, I tell my kids now, you know, if you don't like what you're doing, why are you doing it? Like, that's right, crazy. Um, you know, Connor started college as a computer science major and he's graduating with a degree in May of motion graphics. I mean, you know, kind of in the same, but is different. Yeah, very different. So I'm like, just keep trying until you figure it out, right? Like, that's just a tiny example, but I think that that is, um, I admire that you— and I guess there's kind of a question here, which is, at what point did you realize this is not working for me? Either whether it was the people pleasing or being married, or was there kind of like a one singular moment, or is it just kind of this gradual awakening?

Yeah, so the, the people pleasing awakening came, came later. Like it was a, oh, because sometimes people pleasers think it's not a bad thing. Like, oh, I'm, uh, when they sign up for a consultation call, there's like, what are some struggles? What are strengths, and sometimes their strengths are like, I put others first, I, I care a lot. I'm like, oh, those are great. There are also some people-pleasing tendencies that might be holding you back. So it can be confusing because other people love that, right? They love that you give endlessly and do anything for me, um, anytime, right? But real, like, so it takes a while to shift and go, oh, okay, I don't have good boundaries. What are boundaries? What is this?

What are those?

Right?

Exactly.

And realizing, you know, it's not selfish to have boundaries, like, it's necessary, and it usually involves something good for, for both sides, even if it doesn't feel like it in that moment, even if there's that resistance to the boundaries initially. Right? It builds something better. So like, my mom is not someone that wants to— is interested in growth, right? Like, here's a Brené Brown book. And then I don't think she read it. And I was like, oh, could I, could I get it back? And she's like, I don't know where it is. So I don't know if she just gift— regifted it or what happened. But she is not one that you can be like, oh, do this, try this. But by living my life and having healthy relationships and having some boundaries and just how our family interacts, she's been able to kind of— that rising tide kind of makes some growth along with us. Um, but not because we're pushing it, but just kind of as a role model, those beautiful ripple effects that can affect people in our lives without us like shoving it down their throat.

That is exactly right. That, and I think that is maybe the most effective, if not one of the most effective ways to, because nobody likes to be told you're wrong, do it my way. Doesn't matter how old you are, right? Um, I think that by, you know, shifting in the ways that you shifted. And certainly I think that a lot with, with my family as well, that, okay, well, I'm gonna shift and, and lead by example. And they are, you know, they have choices. Choices are right. And making those, making those choices clear is part of the setting boundaries. Which is, again, it was a foreign concept to me as well. Same. Yeah, I mean, holy cow. Um, I read this really cool, or maybe I heard it, I don't know if I read it or heard it on a podcast, but somebody was talking about, um, being selfless, the idea of being selfless, and which goes along with being people pleaser. And they were saying that being selfless is actually selfish. I was like, oh yeah, I like that. You really think about it and, um, gosh, I wish I could remember who this was to give them credit, but I just thought it was so brilliant because it's true. You're kind of wrapped up in that whole like, well, I can do everything for everybody and I can make it all better and And people love that about you, right? They'll, they'll take until you are like a shriveled up, burned up little— yes. Okay, I can't do anymore. And then that— what, who's— who are you good for at that point? No one, right?

And then they're going to be upset because you can't do it anymore.

Correct, correct.

Yeah.

What happened to you?

Yes, yes.

So, oh my goodness. So you have a kiddo who is pansexual.

Yes.

Which is awesome. So can we talk a little bit about them?

Yeah, let's do it.

Is that okay? Is that okay? I just didn't wanna talk about anything that was off limits. Um, so when did they come out? And I guess before that, how were they? How old were they when you came out and how have they been with kind of the shifts in relationships around them?

Yeah, so, um, I came out when she was 1, so I was like, you're never gonna remember any of this. But it was also motivating because I was like, okay, I don't want to model being a people pleaser and for her to grow up watching me go through— because I was still going through like a the unhealthy relationship, like, when she was like 2 and 3. So I had to be like, nope, that's not good. Like, I don't want her to be like, this is normal, like this back and forth and, and yelling, or any, any kind of, you know, some of this is, it is something that's normal and you can talk to your kids about. But if I can have my choice, right, if I can pick the healthiest version of myself and partner, then that's what I wanted.

She—

and it's funny because even with what I do, I— she still struggled to come out to me, which was, which was funny. So at first she came out as, as bi. And I'm trying to think of how she did it. And this was, I think, also around middle school age. So like 6th, 7th grade, right? There's a lot of— oh, I'm not an elementary school kid anymore, right? I'm having, you know, you lose that baby group of friends that your parents sometimes choose for you and invite everyone and start to have more of an opinion and realization and all of that, all of that. But she came out to me, not, not her father, though. So that, you know, that relationship is still— he goes to a very conservative church. We also go to church, but we have some very affirming pastors. So it's interesting, just kind of seeing both sides. And what I like to reassure people is that it doesn't— it can— you can have one parent, right? You can have your one person that is supportive and validating and listening, and just because the other side isn't there yet doesn't mean it's gonna break the kid, right?

Very important point.

I did read the book The Four Agreements with my child a long time ago, like when she was 10. That was a book I have all my science read. And I was like, let's just go through this, because if I think of my mom, she struggles with all of those. So, which is probably why I love that book so much. So I was like, just gonna slowly inch away at this book and talk about it. And each time I was like, what are the Four Agreements again? Just the— she'd be like, don't take things personally, don't make assumptions. Anyways, you were just like practice drilling it in. And she's a confident kiddo. Hi! She did come out, and again, we're still in this small-ish town. It's not like Dallas or any of the big, big cities. Um, she like decided to wear like a rainbow sticker like every day to school, just like, just so it's clear, just so y'all know. Exactly right. So it was very interesting, like that whole generation I'm so impressed with. Um, I know, and I'm sure, you know, I'm sure internet and just, you know, TV shows these days. I remember when I was coming out, they would— when there was like one gay character in a show, we'd be like, oh my goodness, did you hear this show? And now it's almost a staple. Like, there's always one, so it's not like as shocking or a surprise anymore. But just being brought up around that um, doesn't undo everything, right? There's still so many people I talk to that it's just a struggle because church and their parents, um, right, that's a daily kind of message, right? And it's hard when you are in that bubble. But, um, so yeah, those are, those are two difficult ones.

Yes, for sure. So how old is she now?

She's 16 now.

Yes, I have one of those. They're super fun. Um, yes. Oh my goodness, I love that. And I think that I love the, um, you know, the middle school coming out. I think so many people are surprised by it, but it's really not that surprising if you think about it. Yeah, that's kind of when everybody has their first crush, right? I mean, you're just entering puberty and noticing, you know, all of these thoughts and attractions.

So it is—

I find it, you know, people are like, oh my gosh, is that normal? I'm like, yeah, when did you have your first crush? Probably when you were like 12 or 13, right? I mean, um, some of us were older, some of us were younger, but that is the general. So I do, and I think that that is— I love when kids are able to express that. And, um, you know, likewise, I am just in awe of this generation of kids, especially considering, you know, what they do face in so many other ways, right? I mean, just— we were talking how much we love the internet because we can do things like this. Uh, for them, it's different, and it can be so much more dangerous and scary, and just stuff, stuff is out there. So, um, yes, these, these kids are amazing. They're quite extraordinary, and they're fun to learn from, which I think is another gift that, um, that we get. And I think that, you know, we, we did not collectively as a generation grow up with parents, just because— and this isn't, you know, I don't say this to blame, but it's just a fact— who were interested in learning from their children, right? We were to learn from them. That was just how it was, right?

Yes.

The miniature versions of them, or we were reflections of them. And, um, I think that is one of the most fun things of you know, the shifts that, that we have made as a generation is, oh my gosh, we could learn a lot from these kids. Like, you sit and observe them or listen to them, and there's a lot there.

Yeah.

I mean, you and I learned how to be on TikTok. I learned how to be on TikTok because of you. So this is my announcement for today, y'all. Um, Annie gave me the courage to be on TikTok because she has an amazing channel. So that will be one of the things that we have to share, because not only do you do just these awesome— I'm gonna say all of this wrong because I'm still such a newbie— but you do great videos, but you also do lives, and, um, they're so wonderful and so educational. And so I, I love— after I sat and watched, I mean, it took me like a good week and a half after we talked to like, I was watching you and watching you. Because of course, you know, the stuff our kids watch, right, that's not coming up on my For You page. Now I know what they're talking about. Um, because my— because Connor used to be like, Rowan, I don't think we have the same For You page. You know, the 22-year-old and the 16-year-old definitely do not have the same For You page. But, um, It's so funny, but now, like, observing and watching and doing all this, it's such a, you know, it's such a great way to communicate with people and reach people. And so, you know, that's something that this generation has brought to us. Bravo!

Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, just staying open to all the conversations and changes Like, I don't know, I don't know about you or any of the listeners, but I was not a go-to-my-mom-and-have-these-conversations kid. It was, nope, this is, this is toeing the line. And then there's Annie, right?

Exactly. Oh, I wasn't— oh, it's still kind of Yes, we did not have those conversations, not at all. So yes, it is, it is so nice. And I always, um, I kind of giggle because they each share certain, like, different amounts of information with me. Um, Connor shares the most, but I think that's because of everything we've been through together. So he's kind of like, well, You know, you saw my Grindr account, so I can tell you pretty much anything, Mom. No, I mean, seriously. Yes. So, you know, some of these things were learned by— what is it? What is the phrase? Something by fire. Baptism by fire.

Trial by fire.

Trial by fire. Something by fire. Anyway, that's what it was. That's what it is. So yes, it is, it is fun that they do share. And I think the other piece of that is that they share and we can have conversations where if we question or ask questions about, you know, why, why do you think that? Or where did you find that? Or it isn't this instant, like, I'm not telling you. Or, you know, it actually I think helps them develop more critical thinking skills, right? Like, why do I think this? Like, where did I find this information? Was that a reputable source, or what was it, you know, from so-and-so? So anyway, I don't know why I got off on that tangent, but I have it.

No, and that's beautiful because how we You know, there's so many stories of that we can take from generations before, right? We like to break those generational curses. But I remember, I remember thinking early on that like, oh, my ex is gonna have a hard time because he's not really doing this groundwork to build this relationship. Um, and at one point he was like, yeah, I think she's just being a teenage girl. And I'm like, I was like, she doesn't do that Over here. Like, that's not a teenage girl thing. It's— anyway, yeah. So noticing when we can catch ourselves with some old, expired, outdated thoughts that we can question, be like, what if, what if this could be better, right? I love those positive what-ifs and turning them on their heads, right?

And I think so much, like, so many things that you've said have been because of being aware. Yeah. So, I mean, your journey is— you were so aware from so early on of how you were feeling and what you were thinking, and, and perhaps how the two things didn't necessarily mesh together, right? Because so much is like programming that we're like, go, go, go, and then we're like, wait a second.

Yes, yes. And I, and I don't think all that awareness was there then. It was definitely an after-the-fact, like, oh, hindsight, like, I can see, oh, this is why I did this and this is what I was doing. Because like I said, in the moment you're just doing what you're supposed to be doing. And like in the book The Four Agreements, how the intro talks about domestication and how we're taught this is good and this is bad and this is right and this is wrong. And, you know, you hug your family immediately when you see them, all like the rules and supposed-tos. That will lead you, like, the path. Um, so back then I was not aware at all, which is why I just kept kind of falling along that path. Um, looking back now, I can be like, oh, maybe that was actually a crush. Like, it wasn't just really like hanging out with this person. It's, oh, that's what that was. I was just— so many areas, it's cluelessness. But going through and being able, like you said, learning from our kids and being able to have those conversations that we didn't with our parents, I think is powerful and great. So I'm excited for all of your listeners because they get to hear how to grow that relationship and like this might be your old normal of parents don't talk to their kids about that kind of stuff and kids are hard and tough to— oh, there's a better way to have this relationship so that y'all can support one another and, and know what's, what's normal and what's okay and what's, um, that there's others like you.

I think that's huge, right? Exactly.

And doing amazing things.

Awareness piece, which I think is really— it sounds difficult, but it really isn't. Like, when you— because it's really having that, like, pause, practicing that pause. Yeah. And, you know, just kind of observing or recognizing what's going on. So it's just— it just takes practice, all of these, all of these things, and things that I still am practicing all the time. And and, you know, still totally goof from time to time. Yeah, sometimes I think I'll do, right?

Yeah, that practice isn't a bad thing, right? It's just, it's just you just keep growing and taking one more step up and being able to look back and go, oh, I didn't know that, and now I do.

Exactly, exactly. Well, and I think the other thing too that we've kind of learned from that is, you know, as we've grown and, um, and shifted over time, we look back and we're like, oh, you know, that we did that, or that happened. And, and then being able to have that discussion, you know, with, with whomever it occurred with, right? Um, you know, obviously a lot of these things were with Connor, so I can go back and be like, oh, I said that, or I did that, and I'm really sorry because I I had no idea. And, um, and, you know, he's able to, you know, say how it made him feel, and we can have this conversation. And then it's, you know, of course it's okay, Mom. You know, you've had— you, you didn't know, right? So, um, or, you know, you're a moron. I mean, whatever. He doesn't do that. Um, but Yes. So I think that that is— it's a gift. It's a gift for sure. So as people are— I want people to find you and, and either follow you on TikTok, or, um, if somebody who is listening would like to speak with you, you know, work with you, how, how do you do that? How would one find you?

Yeah, so I'm, uh, I'm pretty consistent across all the platforms, but my website, whether— and then also on Facebook, also on TikTok, uh, you can usually find me just by going to Annie M. Henderson. I don't know if that— yeah, so like if it shows, everyone can see the label on there, anniemhenderson.com. Yeah, and then on Facebook I usually just post just some good old coaching tips and reminders on a daily basis. And then TikTok Live is 3 PM Central. And that's just fun. Sometimes we start off on a certain topic, and then I just start responding to comments and talking to people. And it's nice. It's not like a huge, massive group, but it's nice to where people can ask and feel heard and just talk about whatever it is, whether it's boundaries or coming out or church or trauma, whatever the topic is for the day. So I can't wait, Heather Hester, um, to see your future lives.

Oh my goodness gracious. I will definitely let you know. I still have a little, a little while to go to get to that point.

Yeah, we'll have to hop on together.

We definitely will. And I will put all of this information in, um, you know, in the show notes as well so people can click right through. And, um, just in case, you know, you're driving as you're listening and you didn't get all of that. Yes.

Yeah. So, yeah, yeah, uh, Annie M. Henderson, there's also a way to sign up for like a free consultation call. Um, some free groups, all from my website, um, an old podcast. So all, all the things are there, and they can lead you to the other places.

But yeah, wonderful. Oh my goodness. Well, is there anything else you would like to share before we close?

Um, just an extra reminder to check out The Four Agreements if you haven't yet. I think it's a beautiful book. It's pretty small. Um, my tip that I, I give to my clients is, um, because I'm— I can highlight like crazy in a book or jot down notes, but once I put it back on the shelf, it's kind of gone, and I won't look at it until I happen to pick it up again, maybe never. So the tip I like to give is that as you're going, as you're going through a section or a chapter, what you do highlight or take note of to put it in your calendar app on your phone and set it for like a weekly repeat. So it's just going to— a little reminder will pop up and then you could always move to monthly or yearly if you need a little reminder or check-in. But it's a great way to just kind of sink that good information in over and over because reading it once isn't gonna do the trick.

No, that is brilliant because I am definitely a serial highlighter and tab—

or tab, and it's too much to just retain, right?

It is. And you're right, once you put it back on the shelf, it's— it's— whoever one day, uh, inherits those books, it's gonna be like, oh my goodness, she kept Post-it and, and business.

Yeah. Well, good.

Well, thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for being here today.

Thanks for having me on.