Just Breathe with Jeannie Gainsburg: Becoming a Better LGBTQ+ Ally | More Human More Kind

Welcome to Just Breathe, everyone. I am really, really excited for you to just sit back and enjoy this conversation that I get to have with Jeannie Gainsbourg, who is the author of one of my most favorite books. And I know I've already raved post or pre-interview, but I'm just really excited for you all to learn because there are so so much we can learn from Jeanne. So welcome to the show.

Thank you, I appreciate being invited.

So I would love to just start, before we get into your book and your new edition of your book, um, really talking about what made you start doing this work. Kind of where did you start and how did you get to this point of writing The Savvy Ally and Second edition of The Savvy Ally.

Yeah, I got kind of a late start as an ally. I call myself a late bloomer. Always felt very strongly about LGBTQ+ inclusion, way back to— dating back to junior high school, because I found a note I was passing with my best friend. So I have evidence that I was pretty chill about LGBTQ+ people back then. But I didn't grow up with any out LGBTQ+ people in my life. Obviously there were many, many friends who later came out, but I didn't know. So just a very straight cisgender world. But I grew up in a household where the word gay wasn't a naughty word, for example. So it was just, you know, it was spoken the way it should be as any other adjective, you know. And so I got that background, but I never did anything. I was never active. I didn't even know the word ally in a social justice context. So I didn't know that there was a role for me to play because I had the stereotype, and maybe many people do, that if you are an ally to the LGBTQ+ communities, you must have a family member who's part of the community or a close friend, and I didn't. And so I wasn't sure I'd be welcome, and a lot of things just sort of held me back. And eventually, uh, 20 years ago, I got motivated to become more active, and I looked up the word gay in the phone book and found our local agency. I'm, I'm coming to you from I grew up in Rochester, New York, upstate, and we had an LGBTQ+ center at the time called the Gay Alliance, which was one of the oldest in the nation. Not a super inclusive name, we ended up changing it later, but thankfully it was called the Gay Alliance at the time because it was easy to find in the phone book. And I called, picked up the phone and called and said, "I'd like to volunteer," and that started me, launched me literally into a full-time career as an ally. I volunteered for 2 years. I knew absolutely nothing when I started, like nothing. I was the one who had to raise my hand in the first session that I went to, the first training, and asked what at the time GLBT stood for because I had no idea. So that's where I was starting from. So I volunteered for 2 years and then they hired me on as staff and I ended up staying with the agency for 15 years. And my final 5 years there I was the education director, so I was in charge of all of the educational programs. And by the time I moved on from that position I had such a wealth of information in my head about how to be an ally that I just thought this should get out there. Like, this is— I, I wanted this book, the book that I wrote that you're referring to, The Savvy Ally. I wanted that book when I started. I wanted a guidebook to tell me like how to not mess up and like what, what things I should say and what I shouldn't say. And that book didn't exist. So that was something that in a way I kind of felt like it was a gift that I could give back to the LGBTQ+ communities for just being so welcoming and understanding and forgiving of my you know, ridiculous questions that I had to ask when I got started.

My goodness. But I think that is such— that's like one point that you make in the book. And one thing that I talk about a lot as well, which is make the mistakes. Like, we are encouraged as allies to make the mistakes.

Yes.

Right?

I always say that being an ally is an ongoing journey of messing up. And in the second edition of my book, I know we're going to be talking about this, but the first edition came out March 2020, which was— you can imagine what a great time that was to launch your first book ever. Um, no, March 12th, 2020, it was like practically day one. Yeah, of the pandemic shutdown. Um, so my second edition just came out last month, and, um, I actually dedicated an entire chapter to messing up properly.

Yes, yes, you did. Yes, I was so excited. I was like, oh my gosh, because I will tell— that's the first thing I did when I, when I got this second edition, because, um, So I'm going to go ahead, I'm going to show it because I didn't do it on film. So this is, this is the first edition, everyone, and you can tell I love it. And I've been through it many times. And here's the second edition. It looks exactly the same except it's not glossy, it's matte. And I equally love this. And so I went through and I was like, okay, well, what is different? What has she added or, you know, consolidated or put together, you know, put together? And And first of all, I mean, this is, like you said, the guidebook, because I have searched and I read a lot of books, and this one is such a complete— like, I keep going back to it. I'll pick up others and I'll be like, oh, this chapter is really good, and then I come back and I'm like, this really has everything that I need when I'm, you know, if I'm writing a talk that I need to reference something, or if I'm like, how do I use this again, or, you know, there are so many different questions that it's— this has helped me answer. So I'm just wondering, I guess we'll kind of just start like right with my beginning question, the obvious question, which is you had this awesome reference book that you published 3 years ago. Why did you decide to do a second edition so soon after the first edition?

Well, first of all, let me just say wow, and thank you so much for your kind words about my book. That means a ton to me. Um, so I mean, as I'm sure people are aware there's been— there's constant changes when it comes to the LGBTQ+ communities. And I actually make a comment in my book which I'll share here. So one of my chapters is common questions, the type of questions that you're going to hear over and over and over that allies should be prepared to have a response to. And one of them that I put in the first edition, which I heard all the time, at least here in upstate New York, which is a fairly liberal place One of the questions was, you know, aren't we in a great place now with LGBTQ+ inclusion? Like, what else needs to be done? And I actually made a note the second edition. I'm like, I feel like we're going backwards in time. Like, instead of being able to sort of eliminate this, you know, this question, um, this, that, that question— I mean, I'm sorry, the question is eliminated because, um, it's very clear what needs to be done. I mean, so we've, we've slid back with our rights for LGBTQ+ people for, you know, school teachers and what they can and can't say for, for transgender care, for, you know, drag story hours. Like, for crying out loud, I mean, what, you know, what we're allowed to actually wear, um, it's frightening. And so to me, that just— that in itself explains why I needed to write, uh, you know, a second edition 3 years later. There's so much. But besides that, one of the things that I do besides writing is I do workshops constantly, and I love that because it keeps me— it keeps me very savvy. I stay connected with what's out in the community. A lot of the work that I do is for corporations and K-12 school districts. Um, and so what I found was that doing that work, there were questions that would come up for me that I just— I'm just constantly keeping. I've got my, my notes in my computer, you know. That's a great question, I got to add that to the third edition. Or I, you know, I, I think I could explain this better. Um, pronouns as an example. So in the first edition, I talk about pronouns kind of throughout, you know, when it seems appropriate to talk about pronouns. And over those 3 years between the 2 books being published, I realized we talk so much about respectfully asking for pronouns, but we've— I, I can't find anywhere really good tools for how to do that. And I realized, like, never once in my life have I walked up to someone and said, what are your pronouns? I actually think it's really intrusive, and there are reasons why people might not want to share their pronouns. So I'm like, why are we not giving people the tools to know how to do this? So another chapter that's completely new in my second edition is a whole chapter on pronouns— how to, how to share them, how to use them, how to gather them, and how to mess them up. And I give tools for like different scenarios and how to potentially figure out someone's pronouns without ever making that direct ask of what are your pronouns.

Which I think is so great. I was so happy to see that because that is a big question. And I think that you're absolutely right that in the past 3 years, that is something that has not only continued but has gotten greater. I think people like really questioning like not only how do we do it, but why, why, right? Like, why do we have to do this? Which kind of goes back to your whole we are sliding back. So that's one of the places of pushback, right, is not wanting to respect someone's pronouns. And so, um, I love that you've added this chapter. And one of the things that you really go into explaining, which is something else that I hear a lot of— the singular they. People cannot wrap their head around the singular they. So, and, and, and in a way that they're like, oh, this is new. Well, it's really not, right? It has always been part of language. And you even give, you know, a great quote that to get to make that point. But I'm wondering if you could talk about that a little bit and really give your very clear explanation of the singular they.

Thank you. Yes, listen up, any Jane Austen fans. Jane Austen uses singular they in every single one of her novels, often multiple times. I'm a huge Jane Austen fan. And now every time I reread her books, which I tend to do, you know, every couple of years, I'll reread all of them. I'm always looking for the singular they you know, trying to find them. Um, so yes, singular they has been used by Shakespeare, by Chaucer, by Jane Austen. Um, I love singular they.

I—

that there are, there are two different types of gender-neutral pronouns. There's singular they, and then there are what's called neopronouns, which I find much trickier. And a neopronoun, for those who aren't familiar with that word, literally means new pronoun. It's a pronoun that hasn't been accepted yet in English, so it's not a pronoun that you will see in the dictionary. Which is why singular they is not considered a neopronoun, because hurrah, it is now in the dictionary as a singular pronoun. So, um, I know Oxford Dictionary recently added it, and, and there's one other which I can't think of it off the top of my head, but it is now in the dictionary considered, you know, grammatically correct to use to refer to a single person who's either maybe non-binary or whose gender is unknown. So a sentence like, um, 'If a student is late for school, they must bring in a note from their parents or guardians' is a grammatically correct way to say that. And I think that's a perfect example of how you would use that rather than the 'he' or 'she.' Um, and then the example— the thing I like to let people know is that most of us probably have been using singular 'they' our whole lives without even realizing it. So if you walk into a coffee shop, for example, and you see that there's a phone left on the table, most of us don't say, 'Oh, someone left his or her phone on the table. I hope he or she gets it back. Like, we just don't— I mean, maybe English teachers speak like that, I don't know. But, you know, most of us say, someone left their phone, I hope they get it back. We know it was one person who left that phone. We're using singular they. So we can all do it, folks.

And I think it's one of those things that we're like so wound about it. Like, you know, people don't want to mess up. So there's either like— there's like the, you know, the two— I mean, this is simplifying a great deal, but like the people who don't want to mess up and then the people who don't care, right? And I think in that, like, not wanting to mess up, then you get yourself so wound about it that you overthink instead of being like, well, this has been part of my language forever. All I'm doing is being respectful to each person I come in contact with, right?

Right. Yeah. And I, I have some tips in my book for how to remember to use people's pronouns correctly and what to do when you mess them up. So I mean, we can go into that now if you want to, but I just want to let people know that I have those resources in there for, for tips and tricks on helping to get it right.

Yes, which is so incredibly helpful, and they are very actionable. But yes, if you wouldn't, wouldn't mind sharing one or two right now, that would be great.

Sure. So one of the things that I have learned about retention, like when you learn a new thing, studies have shown that if you have that reinforcement multiple times within the first few days, you are way more likely to retain something. We lose information really quickly when we don't have that reinforcement. So when I learn, oh, this person maybe has changed their pronoun, I need to now remember my friend is using a different pronoun, I will put it in a place where I will see that repeatedly. And for me, that's my big old— I still use an old school daily planner that I look at like a bajillion times a day. And so that's, that's where I'll write it, and I'll write like the person's name and pronoun. And so every time I look down on that page, I get that reinforcement. That, for anyone— again, anyone who studied memory and retention— that is the way to retain something. So I just, I literally practice it. I see it over and over and over throughout, you know, the whatever, that first week. Um, that's a great way to retain it. When it comes to singular they specifically, This is a tip that came to me from community members who use singular they, so I like to give credit where credit is due. Um, but someone gave me— someone who uses singular they gave me the tip. They said, you know, if you don't use— if you don't have someone in your life who uses singular they who you're close to, you really don't get a good opportunity to practice it. And so it gets very difficult to do it well. So they recommend that I— that I practice on my pet. Um, and I have a cat named Carlos, and I think he uses he/him pronouns. Who actually knows? But for a while, I was referring to Carlos using they. For example, "I just fed them.

Where are they?

Aren't they hungry?" Um, I got so incredibly good at using singular they by constantly using it to refer to my cat, and Carlos did not seem to mind as long as I remembered to feed him on time and occasionally scratch him on the head. So if you have a pet— that probably wouldn't work so well with a goldfish— but if you've got like a dog or cat or rabbit, um, you know, practicing singular they— I, I really, I got so good at it, it was incredible. It was a great tip.

What a great idea! I love that. I love that. I mean, I'm just sitting here thinking, so my third child uses all three pronouns and, um, kind of, you know, just depending on where they are. And so it's— I'm kind of in constantly in that place of, you know, where they are in the fluidity of Right. Um, but I, for whatever reason, I, the, the, the they, I can do they when I am speaking about them, like in this context, when they're in the room and we're having a conversation with other people, I find the pronoun much more difficult. I don't know why.

Interesting.

So, um, It is such an interesting thing. So I love this because this is a great way to practice with, you know, with my dogs. I can totally do that. And when they are at school and then come, you know, when they come home, I can, I can do, I can do better, right? So, you know, I'm a really great example of you just keep trying. Yes, you just keep trying, people. It's okay. Okay. Um, my goodness. Okay. That was one of my favorite. I was like, oh, I'm so excited. Okay. Here is another one of my things that I loved that you did in the first book. And I'm actually going to show this because it's really hard to describe, but in— so you've done this in both the first and the second editions, and it's in the chapter on, um, orientations, identities, and behaviors. And what you did for all of us who are so visual is you put everything in like this. So like on a spectrum, like so every single orientation, behavior, identity. This is so incredibly helpful. I cannot even tell you. And I'm wondering, you know, where are you, you know, where you learned this? Where you— what made you decide to do this? And if you could just give a little background on this, because I mean, this alone is reason to buy this book. Yeah.

Thank you. Yeah. So you're referring to the diagram of sex, gender, and sexuality, I believe?

Yes. Yes.

And then I go into a more advanced diagram at the end of the chapter. Correct. Yeah.

And you do a lot more in the second edition as well.

I did. In the second edition, I decided to add in some folks from the LGBTQ+ communities and their maps. So they're, they're diagrams, if you will. So they actually map themselves out, and you can just see the great diversity among people. Um, but so where that came from, that originally was shown to me years ago back. I mentioned, you know, I was working at the Gay Alliance, and I was in charge of the education program. And, you know, I— this stuff was new to me. So someone literally drew this out on a napkin for me at a coffee shop. And what was amazing was I was thinking, like, you know, as a straight cisgender person, I'm like, oh, I'm going to be so plain vanilla. I'm going to be like all over on this one side. But it was really fascinating and eye-opening for me to realize that, oh, I actually am not all on one side either. So gender expression was huge for me because I have spent my whole life up to that point looking at women who, according to our society and culture, are considered very feminine, you know, so a lot of makeup, long nails, high heels, jewelry, like none of the stuff that I do. And I was like, I feel as far from that as I do like a guy. What is going on with me? Because I know I'm a woman, like I've never questioned that I'm a woman, and I didn't have that language. And when someone showed me that diagram, I was like, of course, it's gender expression. My gender expression tends to be, you know, I'd actually say it's fairly fluid, but definitely not way over in the feminine. And so that actually gave me language— you know, as someone who really hasn't struggled much at all with my gender, my sexuality, my identity, I mean, I really fit very easily into the boxes that were assigned for me and expected of me, it was still very eye-opening. So I found that fascinating. What I don't like about it is it's very simplistic, and I do share in my book some of the things I don't like about it. And as I'm mapping myself out, I share that, you know, I'm running into a problem with this diagram. And so I share a more advanced diagram later on. But so I think the reason I start with that one specifically is, for me, when that was shown to me, it was a very basic diagram that I could really grasp. And so I think for people who've never really had to think about this before— and truly, in general, that's most straight cis people, um, you know, we again, we fit so neatly into those, those boxes of those expectation boxes that we've never had to ponder our gender or sexuality very much. So for those of us who haven't, I think that diagram that I share in the chapter at the beginning is really, really helpful because it's pretty basic. And then I do talk about— and I know that there are people in the LGBTQ+ communities that are frustrated with that diagram because they just think it's too simplistic, which is why I then go into a more advanced diagram. And truly, if you look this up online, there's a lot of different ways that you can map out your gender and your sexuality. But I think it's so important because there's so much confusion over like, can you be gay and trans all at the same time? And you know, the difference between orientation and behavior is huge. I actually think that's at the, the, the core of a lot of trans and homophobia and just confusion about, um, you know, inclusion in schools, for example. I really think that has to do with people confusing sexual behaviors and sexual orientation. So yeah, I appreciate that. That— I'm glad to hear that chapter was helpful to you.

Absolutely. Well, I think to kind of building on that, the other thing that it really opened up for me, and I think so many, I'm sure, who have read this and will read this, is that we've all grown up really thinking of gender as a binary, like not even thinking of it that it could be anything other than, right? And so I think part of it for me was like, oh, this is really cool. Like there's a whole spectrum, right? There's not a right or wrong, so to speak, right? Like that is, I mean, that's kind of the world I came from. And so like coming into this and being like, This is amazing to me that you can look at. So I love that you kind of started off in a very simplistic way, because I think if you had gone right into the more complex, that would have just been like, either some, you know, some will shut down completely because it's too complex. You kind of need to ease in and learn, right, as you're going. So I think, you know, as I was looking at this, and like really beginning to think about it, and I've had, you know, many conversations since I first, you know, read read your book and came across this. But just kind of marveling in the fact that this is what allows every person to be so different and, you know, kind of that permission to step into who you are, right? And so the more that, you know, people like us who are straight cisgender can look at this and be like, oh, wait a second. Like, this is cool because I'm not all over on one side, right? Or one or the other side. Like, I'm, I have this cool map. So I wonder what somebody else's map looks like, right? It's just kind of, I think it just opens up like all these amazing pathways of thinking.

So absolutely.

Thank you. That's just really welcome. Yeah. Really cool. And I like too that, you know, that you've. So much of what you've done has been very much, I don't want to say vetted, but you know, you've, it's not only the wisdom you have gained over the years and the knowledge that you have gained, but also the knowledge of those from the LGBTQ+ community that you have worked with and who have added their own thoughts and perspectives on this, right? So Yeah, I was fortunate.

So working at the Alliance, one of the things that I did was I was in charge of our speakers bureau. So I had connections to, you know, hundreds of LGBTQ+ people and their stories. I was privileged enough to hear just, you know, tons of coming out stories. And so when I was writing the book as a straight out, you know, cisgender ally, which is fine, I'm not, I'm not dismissing that. I think allies should be educating allies. However, I wanted to bring those voices from the community into the book with, you know, real experiences, real people, real examples. I just think that examples and stories are the way that people really understand concepts. So I was really grateful for how many people contributed to the book by sharing their personal stories and experiences.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, that does just kind of add that like little extra bit of engagement. Um, you added a chapter in here on, um, etiquette bloopers and outdated terms, which I love that you made this its own chapter, um, because there are so many and sometimes very difficult to explain, you know, why, um either they shouldn't be used or why they are, you know, why you are to do what you are to do. Like, what is the proper and kind thing to do? So I'm wondering if you could just— just, there are so many. As I was going through, I'm like, I don't know which one I want to do, um, or which one I want to ask you about, but I think I put— here we go. Yes, let's talk about some of the bloopers to avoid, because I think that this is someplace that, um, people who are very well-meaning perhaps grab a word that is very outdated or no longer used, or only used by people within the community, right? So can we talk about that a little bit?

Absolutely. Bloopers.

Let's talk about it. Let's do it.

Uh, should I just share a few common ones?

Yeah, could you just share a few? That would be great, because otherwise I, you know, I could go through here and, and, um, you know, just instead of me reading your book to you, yeah, why don't we just grab the ones that you that you find are most common, that you kind of come across the most, and that would be a good way to do it.

So very common would be the butchering of the word transgender, in that people will use it as a noun. So transgender is an adjective, meaning there should always be a noun after it. For example, transgender woman, um, and the shortened version trans as well, trans man. Transgender communities. It should never be used as a noun. For example, the transgender, or the transgenders, or transgendered with an -ed. People get really creative with the word transgender, and the best way to remember it is about it is just that it's an adjective and it should always have a noun after it.

There you go.

So that one I hear all the time. Um, yeah, or he is transgendering. Um, people use— make up this word transgendering. I believe they mean transitioning, but it's interesting that word just gets like butchered and used in all sorts of ways. So I just say it like, don't get all fancy with it, it's just an adjective. Make sure you've got a noun after it and you're good to go. Um, a few other things I hear constantly are people are still saying preferred pronouns, um, and I see this on forms. And what's, what's And again, this is just an example of something that a lot of people used to say that we have now moved past. So it's not surprising that people are still saying preferred pronouns, because even I was saying preferred pronouns when we first started gathering pronouns respectfully from folks. But if you think about it, the word prefer means a fondness for something. You know, I'm not just fond of my pronouns she/her, they're part of who I am, right? So if you refer to me as he/him, I'm not going to be happy, right? Preference just— it kind of implies like a choice. It's like, you know, oh, I prefer pepperoni pizza, but mushroom will do. When we're talking about pronouns, they're like— it's like someone's name. You don't— it's not just something you prefer. So you get my point. Um, so we should hack out that word prefer when we talk about people's pronouns and names. So if you're using someone's name that they're asking you to use, even if it's not their legal name, it's better to just say their name. For example, just, just acknowledge it as their name, right, using— and use legal name, you know, as the, the different name. Or chosen name is even better than preferred name. Um, it's so that word prefer, again, it just implies like a choice or something that the person's just fond of. So that's another one I hear constantly. Um, And then referring to people by going back to using old names and pronouns when referring to the past is a common one. People think, you know, so I'll use an example. I'll use a public figure because I believe he's using— Elliot Page, is he using he pronouns or they? Do you know? I think it's he.

I think it's he.

I think it's he. I'm going to go with he. So Elliot, the actor Elliot Page, a lot of people think that when they talk about him in the movie Juno, for example, they should switch back and use his old name and the old pronoun because at the time when he filmed that, he was using a different name and a different pronoun when in fact the respectful thing to do is to always use the current name and pronoun even when referring to the past. And what I love is that when you're watching Juno on, I think I was on Amazon Prime watching it recently, they've actually gone back and edited the little bits that talk about the movie to use his new name and pronoun, which I was like, wow, amazing.

Using.

Um, so cool, right? Um, so they can't change it in like the actual— the credits of the film, you know, because that's like embedded in the film. But every— everything, all those little trivia things that they throw out there, if you've seen those, they all are using Elliot's current name and pronoun, which is so great. And that's the way we should also talk about people. Um, not only is it the most respectful thing to do, but it can also be a safety issue for people if you start, you know, 'Oh, back when you were in elementary school, you know, did you play on any girls' sports team?' or whatever you're going to ask, you're basically outing that person to everybody in hearing distance. So those are just a few of the common bloopers that I— most common bloopers, I think, that I run into. But as you mentioned, there's a whole list of them.

Yes, there are, and they're wonderful. I was thinking too, another one, and I think this is an older one, but it's one that I just came across recently, and I was a little surprised. By is the word transsexual. And I had somebody reach out to me asking to actually to be a guest on the show as the mother of a transsexual child. And I thought, well, this is an interesting use of this word because you are the mother of this child. And I wanted to be like, ah, how— what makes you use that word? You know, I was, I was just so curious because it is not a word that we use anymore. Um, and so I would love if you could kind of give your thoughts on why we no longer use that word, why it is no longer appropriate in context.

I mean, I think there's a lot of reasons why the word transsexual has sort of faded out. Um, very similar to the word homosexual. Sexual, which also is— I talk about that, it's so much more respectful to use the word gay. Um, both of those words have sexual in them, so that's one thing right off the bat that a lot of people don't like because it's just like focusing on sex, which this is not about. Neither of these things are about sex, right? One's about orientation, one's about gender. Um, so, you know, just false advertising right there. Um, but I think both of them also have been used very negatively in, um, mental health communities. So like in the DSM, whatever number we're on now, or what— I guess we're talking about the past. So in the past, homosexuality, up until '73 I think in the U.S., homosexuality was considered a mental illness. And, um, also being transsexual, or transsexualism, not quite sure what word, but these words are dated. They were— they have negative connotations because of this sort of mental illness that was attached to them at the time. So people have moved away from them. But one of the things I want to talk about is that you'll notice in my book when I talk about bloopers, I kind of give a little word of caution and I say these are great places to start. They may not be bloopers for everyone. And the reason I say that is that I actually have two friends who— they're, they're older folks But they use the word transsexual. That is their identity word. And so the respectful thing to do, and this you get into with my respectful communication tips, is to always mirror the terms that people use for themselves. So even though the word transsexual may be like really cringy for us, if that is someone's identity word, that is the word we use. Um, it's very similar, I think, to the word queer, which a lot of older adults absolutely hate. I'm like, You know what, if that's someone's word, you need to mirror that term. We won't use it for you, that's hurtful, you hate it, but that's their word, that's their empowerment word. So I do know people who use the word transsexual, and when I'm referring to them or having conversations with them, I will respectfully use that term. And I think that's important to keep in mind, that we're always mirroring terms. But in general, a respectful place to start would be to use the word transgender or trans, which is much more, uh, much more accepted these days, right? So interesting. Back to your question, back to your, your parent, which is very interesting because they're the parent of a younger person. Um, I would probably just candidly have that conversation with them. I would just say, so, so I'm so interested and fascinated that you're using this word, you know, transsexual. Um, it was my understanding that that's kind of a dated term. Is this a term that you're I want to be as respectful as possible. Is this a term that your child is using? You know, just to have a conversation in that way, again, indicating that your, your goal is to be as respectful as possible.

Right.

So, and, and having a conversation that way, I think would be important. So interesting.

Absolutely. I know, I thought it was so interesting and I was just kind of taken by it and I thought, well, you know, I'm, I'm just curious, you know, I would, I do want to know. Um, So it was very timely that I, that I just recently received that email. So I thought, well, this is good. We can talk about this today.

Yep. Stuff constantly changing. Oh, can I just share something that I just learned? And again, this is like constant movement. So one of the things that I share in my book is that we should say sexual orientation, not sexual preference, which I think like most people are on board for the same reason I talked about preferences. Like, you know, I prefer mushrooms.

Yeah.

And I just recently heard that some, some younger folks, um, at high school age were sharing with me that they're actually trying to bring back preference. Like, it's actually— again, things are just— it's like things are constantly changing. They're basically like, we're, you know, it's okay to be fluid, it's okay for it to be a preference, you know, it's not necessarily this set-in-stone orientation, you're born that way, that's what you are, which of course we we know, right? I mean, we— but the interesting that the language is now starting to go back to something that used to be considered offensive, and now there are communities of people who are now embracing that because they want people to understand that gender and sexuality is fluid and it's fine if that's a preference. So interesting.

That is so interesting. And at the same time, I, I can totally see that. With this age of kids for sure. And probably going forward, um, because that is more and more I've seen that just in, you know, talking with my kids and, you know, and learning about their friends and, you know, how this— and it's just, you kind of go with it and you're like, okay, this— note to self, I was like, note to self, this, you know, this is what— this is where we are right now.

And it's The Savvy Ally 3rd Edition.

I mean, right?

I'm making notes.

You are making notes. I mean, third edition is going to be coming next year. I see that. Everything is moving so quickly and things do shift so quickly. Um, but I think that, you know, this is such a great, um, kind of like a tour guide or a, you know, like you're something that you just have with you. There's so much in here that is, that is timeless and that is um, just help with, okay, I, I want to be a good ally. How do I be a good ally? Right? Like, what are the basic tenets? And of course, things— there's going to be lots of things that change, but there are the basic tenets that will always be the same, right? Yes, that's true. So, and you, and you do cover that so very well. One of the things that too— this will kind of be my, my, one of my final hurrahs here, but I just have to giggle and I love this so much. Um, The chapter on straight pride parades and special snowflakes.

I mean, seriously, I was like, um, did you see my special, my special snowflake image? Yes, I added illustrations to the third edition. I had fun with that. I did.

Yes, I love that. I was like, oh my gosh. Okay, and I have to tell you, I've used this quote so many times um, that instead of wondering why there isn't a straight pride, be grateful you never needed one. So I never knew who said that. I've always said unknown. And so I was like, there is—

I mean, obviously, yep.

Yes, I mean, thank you.

I— Anthony Van Brown, I just have to say, just a little side note, what a lovely person. So my publisher, um, connected with him to get permission to use that that epigraph. And he got— he said, yes, of course, and can you send me an edition of this book? And we've been in touch. I was just emailing him this morning. He is such a love. Um, I actually just read, read his book, um, A Life of Unlearning, which is fabulous. I'm just talking about his experience going through as a gay preacher, and, you know, his, his whole— it's a memoir, basically. So good. But, um, oh, I'm just— it was just like a lovely little thing that occurred because of using that quote. I now just feel like I've got this friend in Australia. He's so great. Yes.

Oh my gosh, I am so thrilled. Okay, check this out. Um, I, I mean, I literally was like, this is one of my favorites. And I actually used this quote when I was having a discussion with a family member a number of years ago. About why there are not straight pride parades. So I kind of had to laugh. I was like, well, here, you know, obviously it's in the quote, but I was like, I actually used this quote in this conversation. Oh my gosh. Just a weird moment for me. Um, but let's, let's talk about that because I think this is something that, you know, does come up all the time and people who, um, you know, want to be good allies often find themselves in difficult conversations, whether it's with family members or friends. And, and these are some of the common questions that come up, right? Um, so what are, you know, very simple answers that can be given? Because I think sometimes we also feel like we need to give this long drawn-out, you know, with facts and statistics kind of answer, which of course you totally can, but what are some simple ways that you can answer these questions?

So I think if you want to keep it really brief, I, I love examples. I, I just think that examples are like the key to understanding concepts. So in this case, I, if I just wanted to be brief, I would probably talk about the breast cancer ribbon supporting people who've had breast cancer and talking about how if you haven't had breast cancer, it doesn't mean your life has been all rosy. You know, necessarily, right? But as far as breast cancer is concerned, you're good to go. You don't need a ribbon to support your never having had breast cancer journey. And in the same way, like, no one's saying that if you're straight and cisgender your life has been all roses. And, and it's just when it comes to your sexual orientation and your gender, you know, you're— in according to our society, you're good to go. You don't really need a pride parade because you see yourself represented. People— you see people like you represented constantly as accomplished beings, right? You just think about who you learned about in schools, you know. I mean, I think it was almost all straight cisgender people. I can't— back, back in the day, probably getting a little better now. I know it's getting a little better in some places, but the idea of that we need a special parade to celebrate straight cisgender people— we're celebrated all the time. Um, so again, like that, like that breast cancer, never having had breast cancer ribbon, there's no need for that.

Right, right. Uh, that is a great example. Thank you. I mean, you know, kind of spot on, because I think that can be kind of like a, well, how do I, how do I say this, and how do I, you know, I want to explain this in the best way. And yeah, and right. Um, so For all of, all of our parents listening and people listening who are just really, whether they're beginning on this journey of, of being an ally and really wanting to step into this place because it, you know, has become really important to have as many allies on board across the country right now, what are some of your recommendations for things that people can do to, whether it's get involved or just support, you know, locally, whether it's at home or, you know, whatever. What would be your recommendations?

Well, let's all vote, folks. Let me start there. Um, yeah, truly, you know, if you're the kind of person who's like, oh, I never vote, it's just one vote, it doesn't matter, like, please vote. I'm just got to get that out there. It's so, it's so important. I feel like people don't have a right to complain about the state of the world if they don't vote. You're just, you don't get to, you don't get to complain. So if it's just for that reason you want to complain, go vote. You have, you have the right to complain. Um, I just I just think, you know, straight cisgender allies can help out in, in a lot of different ways. And I mean, obviously there's big things we can get involved in, like if you've got a Pride in your area or nearby, like what a lovely gift that we can give to our LGBTQ+ friends on their day or their week of celebration, to volunteer and help make it as safe, you know, and fun as possible. And it's a great way to meet people too. So getting, you know, volunteering for Pride, volunteering if you've got a local LGBTQ+ center. If you are involved in the schools, if they have a GSA, which, you know, used to stand for Gay-Straight Alliance, I think now it tends to stand for Gender-Sexuality Alliance, but those are, you know, clubs that support LGBTQ+ students and allies, great ways to get involved. If you, if you see something, don't, like, like step up to the plate, take some of the heavy lifting off the LGBTQ+ folks. Like a really simple thing that I like to give as an example is when we see a form, you go to the doctor office, the doctor's office, you get handed the same form as everybody else. I, I'm still seeing that dreaded M or F box, you know. Yeah, I mean, again, I could talk for an hour on why that's problematic, but if you are, you know, a transgender woman, if you are intersex, if you are non-binary that doesn't fit for you. It's not even clear what's being asked with an M or F box. So a really, really great ally action that's very simple and is very little risk to you as a straight cisgender person is to just make a little note on that form, "Hey, this could be a little more inclusive, you know, what are you actually asking here?" Maybe if you even want to spend the time ahead of time looking for, you know, a quick website where they could go. I mean, it's something I do. I could do consulting on forms, but But to me, if you think about a doctor's office getting like 10 times a day people writing a little note about the MRF box, that's going to get changed in no time. Like, you can guarantee it. It's just such a simple little thing that we can do. And if you think about the poor, the poor patient who's coming in who's part of the LGBTQ+ communities, or maybe like the, the lesbian couple that has a young child and they're registering at the local school district, they're in a really vulnerable position if they don't see themselves on the forms. Like, maybe they've got the parent, you know, mother/father, which a lot of school districts still have this, right? First of all, like, they're not even sure if they're going to be safe in this school district. So to add that extra pressure of asking them to make a request to change the form and make it more inclusive, like, like, let's not put them in that position. They've got enough to worry about if they're not even seeing themselves represented on forms. But as a straight couple, we can be like, hey folks, not everyone is a family with a mom and dad. Let's, you know, these are just such simple ways that we can make a difference. Um, so again, I'm very, I'm very into the practical what you can do. That's just something that's very simple. And again, I'm like, I kind of feel like, is this a trick question? Like, people can read my book. Like, I've just kind of listed a lot of things that you can do, but You did.

No, I mean, there's a lot more in there. Absolutely. I just think that is such a— this is a good— this is a fantastic teaser for the entire book, because if this has been so awesome, the book is like 1,000 times. So you just really— I am so grateful for all the work that you've done and continue to do. And Right back at you. Well, thank you. Um, but things like things that you just mentioned are things that are so simple that I think that honestly we don't think about, right? And realize, oh my gosh, that is so easy for me to do as a straight cisgender person to just— that's a great way to be an ally because we can't vote right now, you know? We can get— encourage everybody continue encouraging everybody for the next, you know, 16 months. Um, but there's other things we can do in the meantime.

Yep.

So these are really, really lovely things. I'm so grateful that you've been here today. And, um, before we wrap up, is there anything else that you would like to add?

I just want to thank you for inviting me. This has been a really fun conversation. Thoroughly enjoyed it, and thank you for all the lovely things you said about my book.

I mean them from the bottom of my heart, so thank you.

Thanks.