mac mcgregor podcast

Welcome to Just Breathe. I am so happy you are all here today, and I'm really excited about the conversation that we get to have today with just this really, really extraordinary and interesting human being. Mac McGregor is the gender sensei, which I just think is such a cool cool nickname that you have, and we're going to learn why he is considered that in a little bit. But just to give you a little bit of background, he is a speaker who works to educate and train various corporations, colleges, and groups on topics concerning diversity, gender, healthy masculinity, and being true to oneself. He is a dedicated, heartfelt activist and educator who focuses every part of his existence on creating a world where people can feel free to be their authentic selves. He has been a keynote speaker at many events, including the Mayo Clinic and many colleges, organizations, and conferences, which include the University of Washington, where he is a guest instructor each semester who discusses the complexity of gender, transgender, and gender non-conforming. Mac has also made appearances on Ripley's Believe It or Not, The Learning Channel, The Discovery Channel, The 700 Club, Univision, People Magazine, and many, many more. He writes for The Huffington Post, The Good Men Project, Seattle Gay News, Unite Magazine, and other publications. He is also a multimedia talk show host of the You Can Make a Difference show on Rainier Avenue Radio. In 2017, Mack ran for Seattle City Council and was the first transgender person ever to be on a ballot in Washington State. Mack is the founder and executive director of Positive Masculinity, a nonprofit that works to dismantle toxic masculinity and helps masculine people work to create a healthier model of masculinity for all people. So, Mac, welcome to Just Breathe. I am really delighted that you are here and that we get to have this conversation because we, we've been chit-chatting for a little bit here before, before we even press record. We've covered so many fun topics already. So just welcome and thank you so much for being here.

Thank you, Heather Hester Hester.

Thank you, Brad.

So let's I was just going to say, I love what you're doing in the world as well. It's wonderful.

Well, thank you. Thank you very much. It's, you know, as we've been talking, it is important. We both feel passionately about what we do, right? And it's important work. So it's always wonderful to speak with somebody who is doing something similar in the world and just has such an extraordinary story. So I'm really excited for you to share, you know, why you're doing what you're doing in the world.

Well, you know, I was born in the Bible Belt in the South. And in my first test of life, I got an F, which Your first test of life is when you are born and someone in the hospital looks at you and they write a letter on a piece of paper. I call it the magic letter. And I got an F, and it follows you the rest of your life. And most people don't realize the impact it has on every aspect of your life. It has an impact on your safety. It has an impact on the education you will receive, on the societal expectations. On the money that you will be able to make in your lifetime. It impacts every part of your life. And I didn't fit really with that letter that they gave. But of course, I'm, you know, in my— I'm 57 now. So there wasn't even the word transgender back then when I was born. I just knew I didn't fit what they were telling me. And I certainly didn't fit the Southern Belle name I was given. So at 4 years old, all I knew was I didn't fit. At 4 years old, I started changing my name to a masculine name, playing with other children. And I had absolutely no exposure to anyone in the LGBTQ community in my Southern Baptist world. I always say the only acronym I knew was WWJD, what would Jesus do? And they were telling me He wasn't having anything to do with these other letters of the queer alphabet. No exposure, right?

Yes. Yes.

So I just knew I didn't fit. So I started changing my name. Now, the funny thing about this is my mom had me at 16. So I'm very grateful my grandparents helped raise me in my younger years. I'd have probably been a foster kid if they hadn't stepped up, and they were really amazing. And so my papa and I had a couple of shows we watched every week. I mean, it was our time, right? We went fishing together. He taught me how to fish and we watched Bonanza and Gunsmoke. Those were our shows. I'm going to take you back in your memory. You know, I mean, if you remember Gunsmoke. So they actually thought it was really cute because I used to wear little six-shooters and a little cowboy hat, sheriff's badge, and and little, little boots. And, uh, when I changed my name playing with other kids, I told them I was Matt Dillon, the sheriff on Gunsmoke. And so my grandparents thought it was really cute when kids would come knock on the door and ask if Matt Dillon could come out and play.

Yes, awesome.

Yes. So fast forward, I went to a Southern Baptist high school I, well, I'm not going to fast forward that much yet. I started martial arts at 6, which I often say is my soulmate. I'm so grateful for the martial arts because I was a kid with a lot of energy and a lot of curiosity. And my mom, by that time, by the time I was 6, she was taking me back and forth away from my grandparents. I had some periods of time and she was, troubled. I mean, she's on her 12th marriage now. So, it was very rocky and my life was like a revolving door. So, my martial arts was the positive— my dojo, martial arts school and family, chosen family there were a positive place, right? They gave me a lot of wonderful support and feedback. And I'm just grateful every day. There were parents there. I mean, I would go to competitions and go to dojo events, my mom never showed up and other parents would step up. I've never forgotten. Sometimes they'd bring an extra sandwich for me because they knew she didn't show up or they'd give me a ride to, you know, an event we were going to. I've never forgotten how people just stepped up and were just good people. And that made a huge difference in my life. So of course, getting that positive feedback there, I just excelled and did it more and more. And I was the kid they had to kick out at night and tell me to go home, you know. We have to lock the doors now. You have to go home. Exactly. So, and I did really well. Like, every belt I was in, I was the state champion for that rank in, you know, every year. And so by the time I was 17, I won the US fighting title, the US lightweight fighting title, and I started getting big opportunities. Of course, I was kicking for Jesus at the time, which is why I was on The 700 Club. You know, it's really funny because I grew up in the church, but I never internalized the hate that my very church put out there, um, about people like me. I never internalized it because it never made sense to me that they would say God is love, but God won't accept certain people, and then the scroll would come down of all the people that they said, you know, God wouldn't accept or was going to send to hell. That never, even as a child, never made sense to me. So I didn't internalize that, and I'm very grateful that my mind works that way, that I have enough critical thinking in my mind even as a young person to know that that wasn't true.

Yeah, right.

So I went on, uh, I went on, you know, to start traveling the world and experiencing the world. And of course, when you start traveling and you get out of that little mentality of your little Bible Belt area or wherever you're from, uh, it really changes your view. And I found out there are more people like me because the internet wasn't there to find community back then, right? You know, I met other people that were LGBTQ+ in the world, and that That let me know that I wasn't the only one. I wasn't alone. Right.

Right. Right.

And I had some people to talk to then and understand that it was okay. And I kept competing. I happened to have really good genetics as an athlete. So the last time I competed in an international competition, I was 39 years old. And like I said, I started martial arts at 6. So this is a very long career. And all my awards are in fighting. So, it was a contact sport, very hard on the body. But, at 39, I was the oldest one on the U.S. karate team, male or female. And, there were 18 and 19-year-old kids on the team calling me the grandparent of the team. So, I won— Yeah, I know. I won 2 medals in that world championships at 39. And, a lot of those 18-year-old 18, 19-year-olds didn't win any medals. So I just have to say one for the old guy. And I, I looked at my clock and said, this is probably a good time to retire from competition. That is also the thing that kept me from going through medical transition earlier, because they would not have allowed me to compete. And so, yeah, I mean, they're still trying to figure that out, right, with transgender athletes, especially in a context Right.

Yes.

Yeah. So I knew they would still allow me. I'm still a, you know, certified Olympic coach and referee, and I knew I would be able to still do that. But I retired at 39 after winning those two medals in a world championships and began my, my medical transition journey, which is what made me move to Seattle. Actually.

Okay.

Because I did a lot of research on where I could find community and doctors and therapists and people who knew what they were doing with this. Because as an athlete, my body was always a fine-tuned machine for me.

Sure.

I wanted to do this in the healthiest way possible. So yeah, and so I came and visited Seattle a few times and talked to other people in the community here. And fell in love with it. Of course, when you visit Seattle in the summer, it's easy to fall in love. The summers here are gorgeous.

Yeah.

Yeah. The 4 months of gray or 4, maybe 5 months of gray are rough. But yeah, now I understand snowbirds. I didn't understand before.

But yes.

So my martial arts background. So after I started transition, I had people in the community say to me, We need someone with your teaching experience because I had, of course, martial arts raises you to teach. You learn and then you teach what you learn. And I had run my own dojo. I had been a public speaker. I was a keynote speaker for the Fellowship of Christian Athletes for years, all over. I mean, I've spoken all over the world. And they said, we need someone with your experience to help explain this journey to people in a way that maybe they can understand. Because I'm convinced we've all transitioned, and this is part of what I teach. Heather, if you look back at your high school prom picture, are you still that same girl?

Wait, sorry, you were, you were just breaking up just a little bit, so that's why I was kind of pausing.

Okay, if you look back—

that again.

Yeah, if you look back at your high school prom picture or homecoming picture, are you still that same girl?

Oh, no, no. Yeah, no, I'm a different person today than I was 5 years ago.

So that's right, I bring that up so when I get people to understand that we've all transitioned. In fact, sometimes if we all look back at our high school yearbook, once you're in your 30s, even 40s, 50s. Of course it gets more, you know, it gets— you look back and you think, what was I thinking? What? Look at my hair. Look at my style, right? Yeah. Yeah. So we have totally transitioned from who we were then. And then you can like start looking at it, like you said, in 5-year, 10-year segments. We're not the same person we were. So we've all transitioned. And what I try to get people to understand, so that helps people understand my journey. It's about us finding that path to be true to ourselves, whoever that is. Yeah. And that's, that's what I've done. And also gender is a spectrum, just like sexuality. It's a huge spectrum. You know, one of the things I teach about when I teach about gender is there's Rocky Balboa, you know, the big tough guy. There's John Wayne, the big tough guy. And then there's Fred Rogers, and those are all different ways of expressing masculinity, but they're extremely different.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

One is not more of a man than the other. And it's the same thing in femininity. There are many different ways to express that as well.

That is, I think that's a really, really good way to explain that and to help people visualize because um, it helps kind of break out of that very black and white thinking, right? Like it's this or this, and really help to explain what that— because I think when you try to just go with, um, you know, this is what the gender spectrum is, like people kind of get lost and like, oh, there's so much and I, I don't know. But if you— when you explain it that way, that really helps give like visuals to, oh, Okay.

Right. Well, and think about Fred Rogers, as wonderful of a role model as he was. When he was young, he did not fit the traditional masculine stereotype, right? I mean, he was an intellectual and emotionally tender human, right? Which didn't fit into the stereotypical masculine role model. So I'm sure he got picked up.

Oh, I'm, I am sure he did. You are absolutely right. Okay, okay, can you still hear me?

Yes, I can.

Okay, sorry, we will cut all of this out. I just was having— it was really slow there. Yeah, okay, okay, go right ahead. Yes, it's like this is really breaking up, so I switched, uh, I switched something on here and I think this will be better now. So, okay, my apologies.

No problem. Yeah, we can't control the internet. Yeah. Yeah.

So, oh my goodness.

Now, then I got a friend of mine, a friend of mine when I was teaching, who's a fellow martial artist and a fellow educator, Reed Mihalko. He actually said to me in front of a big crowd where I was speaking, where he was hosting an event, he said, you are the gender sensei. Sensei, because sensei is a word that, you know, we use for teacher in the martial arts. And it marries my history with what I'm teaching now. And it was, of course, very catchy and it works, right? So now I educate people like literally all over the world. I've taught in South Africa. I've taught police departments. I teach at colleges, at corporations, even faith groups. One of the interesting things is because I grew up with that faith background, I know how to talk to people and help them build a bridge, you know, of hopefully understanding to, to the transgender experience.

That is wonderful. Yeah, I really— I especially, you know, considering your, your background, that is such a lovely a lovely way to continue that word. Yes.

Yes. And, you know, I don't, I don't hold anything. In fact, I learned a lot of good things from church. And, you know, I think there are a lot of people in faith communities, of course, that are really good people that want to do the right thing. And so it's about just building bridges, right? We can't stand in our corners and point fingers at people and say they don't understand us or agree with us. So we're just going to, you know, not have any conversations. We're just going to fight each other. That doesn't help anything. Right? So I try to create places, safe places for us to have conversations so that people can see Hey, we're all just human and we're all just trying to figure this out and none of us have all the answers. So let's give each other a little grace along this journey.

Exactly. Well, and I think that, you know, one of the things that I know that you do is you talk a lot about being curious, right? Which, you know, I also love and the whole idea and this is Similarly, for me, this is kind of where it comes from, is the idea of being curious instead of judgmental, right? Which I think can be the default sometimes, and certainly can be driven, I believe is driven a lot by fear of just not knowing, not understanding, um, being different. Something is different, so people tend to be fearful of it instead of curious, you know, curious. So, um, I would love to talk a little bit about that because, um, I, I love so much what you are, what you are doing with this in, in your, in your work and in your, um, I know you've done some talks on it as well. And just how we can kind of, you know, go into our daily lives using that as our kind of our default mindset.

Yeah, I, you know, I've been running this masculine men's group for over 4 years now. That's how I started Positive Masculinity. We started as a men's discussion group. To help men do this inner work, to help men and masculine people do this inner work. And one of the things I'm constantly talking to them about is being curious. Number one, about ourselves, because I believe that's the key to getting to know ourselves and getting through our traumas and the things that trigger us and the things that make us rigid in life. I talk a lot in the book about rigidity and how that is nothing to celebrate. It's nothing to celebrate. So this idea of the masculine being stoic is rigid and it's nothing to celebrate. And as an athlete, I always relate everything back to as an athlete, right? If you're rigid as an athlete, you're going to get injured. It's about being flexible to keep you from being injured, right? Not rigid. And so the same thing happens emotionally. If we're rigid emotionally, it's not healthy for us. And so I talk about when we feel something that someone says or does triggers us and we feel tightness in our body, in our jaw, in our shoulders, our neck, start getting curious. Instead of just going through that and letting that keep happening, that pattern keep happening, start asking yourself, where is this coming from? Why is this bringing this feeling up in me? And get curious about yourself and your own reactions and start unpacking those layers of why we react the way we do and why we shut down and armor up around people, because that's how we're going to peel back the layers of our social conditioning is by being curious. As to why things cause us to react the way they do. And that's just the part of curiosity and getting to know ourselves.

Right.

Of course, of course, the curiosity.

That's a lot right there, isn't it?

It's huge. I think that's huge. I mean, if you're talking about doing your own interpersonal work, the curiosity is the key to growth. I really believe it's the key to growth. And I'm a very growth-minded person. And I surround myself with people that are like that, people that are in my inner circle. One of my things is, you know, those are the type of people I want to be around, that I want to spend time with, that we— not that they not only support and foster their own growth, but they foster the growth and support the growth of those around them. And so that's so important. But then, of course, the curiosity expands. Think about your family. You know, my wife and I went through some interesting life experiences in the last few years of walking a few family members through their cancer journey. And one of them was her middle sister. And, you know, all, all of these family dynamics. And I constantly encouraged her, you know, when someone dies or there's a wedding, a big family event, all those family dynamics come out. Like in a big way, right? Around big events like that. Get curious about why your dad is reacting the way he does instead of letting it trigger you. Get curious. Get curious about why this family member does that. And, you know, like looking at it through the lens of curiosity changes everything. Yeah. It's a key to having healthy relationships with your— a healthy relationship with yourself. And everyone else in your life.

That is, um, yes, so very true. And I, as you're saying this, I'm thinking, um, this sounds like it's a very easy thing to do, being curious. Um, and I, I just— for, for everyone listening, this, this is such a, an important, um, piece of, of personal growth, like you said, right? And this is such an important shift to make. It is also difficult and it's really uncomfortable So I just think that's important to note, not to be like Debbie Downer on the conversation. Um, but I, I think it's a good like kind of reality thing too. Like, just know this is— I, I love being able to kind of do that step back, right? And to, to kind of open up the being curious about whatever it is that's going on, whether it's a family or situation or friend situation or whatever it is, right? But then to know that in being curious, a lot of times that will bring— it's going to bring up feelings and they're going to be uncomfortable. And that's okay.

Oh, it's so true. And I think just like the title of your show, Just Breathe, first thing is to breathe. Just breathe. And the hard thing. Yeah, I know. I know. You know, as a martial arts instructor, I can't tell you. I said many times in my dojo, I was going to buy a big flashing sign that said breathe because I was constantly telling, reminding my students to breathe, you know. And I feel like I do that in every part of my life. Breathe. Because it's our life force. It's our life force. And when things get hard, we have a tendency to hold our breath. We have a tendency to tighten. And you're right. It's not easy. Yes. Yeah. You're right. It's not easy to be curious because in order to be curious, we're breaking our patterns of being reactionary.

Yeah.

And we've had those patterns. A lot of us, of course, the longer—

Exactly.

The longer we've had them. Right.

Yeah, right.

So it's not for the faint at heart. Yes. No, no, no.

But it's so worth it. I mean, like, like all of these things that we talk about. I mean, oh my goodness.

Yeah. Wow.

So this kind of, you know, thinking about just the whole idea of using curiosity in all these different types of situations, which I love. One of the things that you, you know, do, you kind of mentioned, you know, your men's group that you work with, but you, we've also talked about the whole kind of working through our social conditioning, which takes curiosity, right?

Yes, it does. Yes. You know, I think most people, first of all, they don't even think about how their social conditioning has affected every aspect of their lives. It affects our belief systems. It affects how we treat others and how we judge ourselves and how hard we are on ourselves as well. It affects how we walk in the world, right? And most of us, it's so unconscious to most people. And so asking people to go back and examine their socialization and social conditioning. You know, a friend, one close friend who's on the board of Positive Masculinity has been with me from the beginning of this work. He told me, you're looking for unicorns, Mac. Because not a lot of people want to run back and do this kind of interpersonal tough examination, right? And I said, my response to him was, you know, unicorns unite, right?

I mean, let's do it.

That's right. Yeah. As, as a warrior, you know, as a martial artist who's fought all over the world, I don't back down from a from tough things, you know. And this wasn't easy for me coming from the South and the Bible Belt and unpacking all of that. It's not been an easy journey. And I can't tell you, you know, that I was always eager to jump in and do it either. But I pushed through because I wanted to grow. I wanted to have a better life. I want better relationships in my life. You know, I want to thrive, not just survive. And right, if you want to thrive, this work is so important. One of the obstacles, I think, to doing this work for many people is that if you ask them to go back and examine these things, a lot of times it makes us look at people that we we kind of idolize or love, like parents, grandparents, teachers, coaches, people that have been instrumental in our life. It makes us see that they have faults because everything that they modeled for us, when you look back as a conscious adult, wasn't the healthiest for us today. It does not mean that they were bad people.

Right.

That's the hard thing, because I think a lot of people—

that is definitely—

go ahead.

Yeah, go ahead. That is definitely, I think, one of those, one of those moments where you realize when you are doing this work and when you do look back and you do have to see those things.

Did I lose you?

And kind of reconcile them within yourself. And then sometimes reconcile them with those you love. It, you know, again, is not easy, but the outcome, the relationship that is on the other side of that is so much richer and so much deeper and so worth that. Mac, did I lose you? I did.

Shoot. I cannot hear you.

Matt, can you hear me? Okay, you're on.

Um, yes.