Show the World Your True Self with Rick Clemons – Just Breathe: Parenting Your LGBTQ Teen Episode 59

Welcome to Just Breathe. I am so happy you are all here today, and I'm really, really excited for you to meet and listen to my guest. Rick Clemens is a well-known culture disruptor in a good way, closet buster. He's a men's coming out coach and a bold move strategist inspiring gay men to live life with no excuses No Fears and No Apologies. Tapping into his 25-plus years experience in personal development, Rick leverages his status as a late bloomer, coming out of the closet at 36 and stepping into entrepreneurship at 43, to lovingly kick other gay men in the ass to thrive in their own lives without apologies, both professionally and personally. He is a professionally certified coach, has been a frequent contributor to the Huffington Post, Your Tango, the Good Men Project. He is the author of Frankly, My Dear, I'm Gay. He's a podcaster, has two podcasts, Life Uncloseted and 40+ Gay Men Gay Talk. And I just want to share a few things that people say about Rick, working with Rick and having interviewed Rick. Rick is all heart, brains, and soul. Rick does a sensational job of digging deep and creating a safe, vulnerable space for listeners to grow and think. Rick speaks with such honesty and emotion that his message is felt as well as heard. So Rick, welcome to Just Breathe. I am really delighted to have you here today and to have my audience get to meet you.

Well, thanks for having me. And it's always weird to hear those— hear that introduction. It's like, oh really, that's me? Oh wow, okay. Um, it's hard to hear stuff about yourself, you know? And, and I think that's one of the interesting things about the journey of coming out of the closet is like really hearing who you really are for that first time and really owning it. It's such an interesting thing. And I've said that numerous times on stage, is like, I I not only want you to know who you are, I want you to hear in your own mind who you are, really hear it for the first time, you know?

Right. I think that's really— that's such an interesting distinction because you're right, it's one thing to say it, but to have somebody else say it to you or to repeat it in your head.

Yep. And the more we hear it in our own head, it's the validation. It's the commitment. It's the courage. It's the confidence to say, yeah, this is me. And it's not just sexuality. I mean, there's so many interesting things, you know, like, I was speaking to a podcast guest the other day. And she said, I'm just so proud to be me as a Black woman. And she goes, and I hear that in my head, I'm proud to be a Black woman. I'm proud to be a Black woman. I said, well, what was different prior to that? She goes, I was ashamed to be a Black woman. I was scared to be a Black woman. Now I'm just proud to be a Black woman. I own it. This is who I am. She goes, I can't change it. I'm Black. There, here we are, right? But, and then so we got into this same conversation. I said, yeah, it's kind of like when I talk to my audiences stuff about like, just hear the truth that you are gay, you are lesbian, you are bi, whatever, you're transgender. To hear it in your own mind and own it is the first really the first step to like stepping into your truth.

So it really is because even if you have somebody else say it to you and validate it to you, it's not the same as you validating it to yourself.

Nope. Nope. You got to own it. You know, you really have to own it. In fact, when I first started coaching one of my good girlfriends who was also a coach and who does phenomenal work in another arena, She's known as the Dating with Dignity coach and she's very well known. And she said, you're just not owning it, Rick. You need to own that you're the coming out coach. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I am. No, you're not. Just the way you just said that, you're not owning it. And it got to the point where, you know, a couple of years later we were at another event working together and she's like, you're not owning it still. Just let me know, buddy. And it irritated me. It literally pissed me off. I'm like, okay, fine. Got me going though, because I started like, okay, this is it. And then suddenly that's when the podcast started. And the next thing I know, I was on national TV. I'm like, okay, well, I guess I'm owning it now, you know. And right, I use that whole journey as a really beautiful metaphor for when somebody's really struggling with coming out. And, and all of your parents who are listening, you're coming out too, just letting you know, you're coming out. That's right. Own that journey. Own that you're a parent of an LGBTQ individual. Because when you can own that, the journey becomes much easier.

It's a game changer. It takes, it takes the fear out of it.

And it gives you confidence. Because you have to remove the fear. And you have to step into the confidence to say, yes, my child is gay. And no, you can't be that way with my kid. You know?

That's right.

And it's so interesting to just see that all unfold. And one of the biggest things that when I did start speaking professionally, I had been volunteering at PFLAG as one of the speakers on their speaker bureau in the LA area. And every time I had the beautiful privilege to go sit at a PFLAG meeting with a bunch of parents, just seeing them finally own, okay, this is my child. This is who they really are. There was almost like this sense of relief as well as this sense of fear, but more so the sense of relief with, okay, I finally just said it. This is my child. This is who they are. Because now it was like they gave themselves permission to go, okay, now what? What's next?

Right.

You know?

Well, exactly. Exactly. It's the whole idea of embracing, right?

Mm-hmm.

Or, um, the other thing I, I always use, like the name it to tame it. Like once you say it, well, it's out there.

Yep.

Now what?

I love it. I love that phrase. Now you can move forward. I love the name it to tame it. As I was listening to some of your other podcasts, I'm like, I wanna steal that. That's really good. You know? Uh, go for it. Well, it's just, it's so interesting because my, my whole brand, so my brand's definitely evolved. I mean, I, I'm, I'm known as a coming out coach, but over the years things have really changed and I have grown and everything. And I did get to this place where like I had a lot of people saying, oh, I wish, I wish you talked to, you know, the straight folks. I'm like, I do talk to the straight folks, trying to get you to just own up that it's okay for us to be who we are, right? Right. But what they were really getting at was you really have this message that's about just unapologetically being yourself. And I will never forget the night that this all changed for me. I loved what I do. I still love what I do, but I'd get to the point where I'm like, if I have to tell my coming out story one more time, I think I'm just going to vomit all over the stage. I'm just like, it had become so routine, you know? And I don't like routine. I mean, I don't want to be that person, right? So, I'm always looking for different things to say. And I was headed to a college in Southern California to speak to a pretty big group, like 400 students. They were all there for a grade. I'm like, "Okay, this is why I was dreading this." Like, they're not going to be paying no attention. And here I am, white cracker boy, older guy, you know, all this sort of stuff. And I'm like, "Okay, Rick, get your head on. You're getting paid for this one. So, you know, go do you, right?" Right. But in the middle of that talk, I thought, you know what? I really want to connect with these kids in a whole different way. And I know it was divine intervention because it became the basis of what now is my brand. And I said, okay, let's get real here. I know that about 97% of you sitting in this room, you're not queer. You don't fall under the queer umbrella. You're not gay, you're not lesbian, you're not trans, you're not bisexual, or you may be bisexual, but you're not going to admit to it. Or you're not into any of this, but I know that 97% of you are not. I also know that about 100% of you are here because you're getting a grade. But I want to do a little experiment with you. So I said, I realize it's Wednesday, it's the middle of the week. You'd probably rather be going, having hump day beer somewhere, but we're going to go play for just a minute. I said, please close your eyes, but don't fall asleep. That was one requirement I had. Please don't fall asleep on me. But I want you to think about where you are right now. So you're in this room. Many of you are getting a grade for being here. Many of you are pursuing a degree at this university, possibly because somebody else said this is what you're supposed to do. So if that's you, and please don't open your eyes yet, raise your hand. And as soon as the hands went up, I said, okay, now do not put your hands down. And we're all— this is a safe space. I want you to open your eyes and look around. It was so interesting because about 70% of the room had their hands raised.

Oh wow.

Wow. I have something here. I just took my whole coming out journey and I related it to something that anybody could relate to, which is doing what anybody else wants you to do, right? Doing the thing that everybody tells you you're supposed to be doing. And honestly, that became the basis for everything, Heather. I'm like, I've got something bigger now. I can go do this talk and I can relate it to anything. And suddenly I started working with, you know, I'm a marketing guy, but sometimes you're too close to your own stuff. It's like I just couldn't break through. I started working with a friend of mine who was brilliant, and we came up with the brand of No Fears, No Excuses, No Apologies. And it is brilliant for any people. And I do this now with entrepreneurs. I do this with college students. I do this with the LGBTQ community. I can do this with people in midlife, you know, like, I've got to go break out of the drudgery of this job, whatever it might be. I could even do this with LGBTQ parents who have a child who are LGBTQ. You got to dump the excuses why this is a problem for you, face the fears of what's coming up for you. And unapologetically go own that this is who your child is. And it just, every time I get to talk about this, obviously you can see I just, I love talking about it, number one, but I love helping people see we're not that much different. Because everybody has something that they're making excuses about, that they have fears about, that they keep apologizing for like, oh yeah, well I'll get to that someday. Or I really wish I would've got that done. I mean, let's take weight loss. That's a perfect example. We all like, well, I can't get the weight off and I'm afraid to da da da. And then right after the holidays, I'm like, well, I put on 10 pounds. Okay, I can use that analogy, but I think it's a beautiful space to invite parents who are working with a teen or a child, doesn't have to be just a teen, to really unpack that for themselves and get really super honest. You know, because it is a journey. It's not an easy journey sometimes. I get it.

But no, no, it's not. But it's, it's a journey that doesn't end. Right? There's no, there's no ending to this journey. It's, I think the biggest piece of it is embracing that it, it is a journey and you're on it together.

Yep.

Right. So I mean, just like parenting, is a journey. I mean, everything we do in life is a journey, right? I mean, it's kind of an overused word, but it's, it's an accurate description. So, um, you know, I think it's a lot of it is just the, like you've been saying, the mindset. Like, once you kind of shift that, you're like, oh, okay, well, I can do this because there are now steps that I understand, right? Instead of it being like this whole just This is so overwhelming, or this is so scary, or I don't, I don't know, you know, I, I don't know what to do.

Right, right. It's so interesting. I'm going to go back to the PFLAG situation. And yeah, I remember using this same analogy, like, you know, a lot of people, a lot of parents in the PFLAG, you know, when they share, they say, you know, the day that my child came out of the closet is the day I went into the closet. I'm like, yeah, you're right. Because you got to go figure this out. But I also believe that once you start to own it and figure it out, part of the power is to realize every day you're going to have the opportunity to come out too, because you never know. A conversation, a casual conversation, something you say, it's suddenly it's like, oh, I'm faced with this, you know? So part of what I encourage anybody, you know, whether you're the parent or the actual individual who's like coming out of the closet about who you are in the world, is to not be disillusioned. It's kind of like diversity and inclusion hot buttons that are going on in our beautiful world these days. They're like, okay, we address this once a year. No, it's not a once a year conversation. It's a daily conversation. Same thing with coming out. It's not a one and done. And I wish it was actually, I wish it wasn't, I wish there was no having to do it at all, but it's a daily experience. You know, I'm coming out today on your podcast and I always, you know, I see that anytime I get the opportunity to speak about this. And sometimes it's a casual conversation anywhere. And I've had people like, wow, I can't believe you actually said that. I'm like, said what? And I had somebody actually kind of say that to me a few weeks ago. I was in Trader Joe's and the clerk and I are just kind of chatting. They're like, well, what are you up to today? I said, my hubby and I are probably going to go for a hike. And this gal, as I'm walking out, she goes, I just wanted to tell you something. I'm like, oh, okay. Did I drop something or something? She goes, yeah, I was standing behind you in line. And she goes, you're impressive. And I don't even know you. She goes, but you just said, yeah, my husband and I are going out for a hike. She goes, so many people wouldn't share something like that in public. I'm like, well, it's my truth. I'm not— what?

Right.

You know, I said, I guess because I have become comfortable. Yes, I know there's There are places I may not say something like that, but I try not to hide it at this point. And it is tough. And as a parent, I've been through it in my own world. And as parents that are listening, I'm not saying what I'm saying to like, get over it. I'm saying what I'm saying to like, you will embrace this in your own way.

Right.

And learn and love to embrace it in your own way. I think one of the things that I I love, I love my community. I love my LGBTQ community. But I will be the first to also say we put a lot of high expectations on everybody else starting to march to our drum, which I think is unfair. I would like it that everybody accepts us, but there's also a matter of give people time. There's also a matter of I've given you plenty of time. Now get over it, you know. But I think sometimes we, and this is again for the parents listening, maybe some of the teens too, or kids that are listening to this, you have to make space for people to step into this. And if you don't make space, you're going to get pushback. And just in my mind, justifiably so. 'Cause when we don't give people room to like, okay, I need to process this. We can't demand that they accept it right out the gate. I know, I am raising my hand. Those of you who can't see, I'm raising my hand 'cause after the second time that I did come out, I told my parents, this is the way it is, you have to accept this. And man, I was a jerk. I mean, I was a jerk. Now, We're 20-some-odd years into this. I don't accept when it comes up anymore. I'm like, nope, we've had this conversation. We're done. You know, we're done.

Right.

You know, you have, you have embraced me and my husband, you know, you don't, you can, you can say what you want to say, but that does not mean I have to stay in the room and accept it. That does not mean I have to stay on the phone and accept it either. Right. Every once in a while with one of my parents, I have to like literally like go a long time without talking to them. Like, I'm not going to do this with you again. You're 77 years old. I'm 58 years old. I think we can kind of— I think I'm an adult. Let's get rid of— I raised two kids. I know these things that even I, as a parent, there's times I'm like, shut up, Rick, just shut up. You need to like let your kid do their thing.

Exactly. Exactly. I think that is— I'm so glad you said that because that is a very important piece that we kind of miss. Right? The whole, you know, we'll kind of say, oh, take time to process it, and then we just keep going, right? Instead of really talking about what that means. Like, not only do, you know, do you as the person coming out, Connor as the person coming out, need that time and space to process, right? The parent needs that time and space to process. Anybody who you're sharing that information with needs the time and space to process it. And I Obviously, you know, our, our goal is to, you know, hopefully someday it will be a world where that doesn't need to be the case. But right now it is. And I think that is just a— it is the kind thing to do if you want to have these relationships.

Well, it's, it's not only the kind thing to do. And one of the things that I say when I talk about helping So I, I focus, as you said in the intro, I really focus on men in midlife, helping them come out of the closet. That was my experience, even though I did it at a younger age too. But there's a key element to this. I want to help men in midlife come out of the closet. And here's the key element with dignity and respect for themselves and everyone else on the journey. I will not work with a guy. Well, yeah, pretty much. I will not work with a guy who says, I want to come out and it's all about me now. And I've given everything else. I've given my wife the house. I bought, got the kid. I won't work with that guy. We will not mesh. Even though there was a bit of me that was kind of that way at the beginning of this whole unraveling thing. I can't do that because there's, again, there's a processing piece. Now, at some point, if your spouse is just like, nope, not going to do that. And I've worked with some people who've had a really tough space there, and I get it. I get it. It's not— it is not easy to like suddenly, oh, this person I'm married to, they're suddenly who— not who I thought they were. I get that piece. But there's a lot of people who go through divorces for a lot of other reasons besides your spouse is gay. So let's get real about that. But I also feel like you have to do this with dignity and respect. If you want dignity and respect in return, you can't just say it's a one-way street. And when your teen, teen or child is dealing with this and they're not giving you that time, that's probably a really good conversation to have with as a parent. I mean, we all have these parents, right, Heather Hester? Right. I'm trying to teach my kids dignity and respect and every once in a while I still have to go there with them. Okay. I realized at 23 and 26, but yes.

Yes. Well, and I think, you know, I often, when those things happen, I think, okay, this, this is not fully developed yet. Right. Um, so there's that piece where you kind of have to slow it down and be like, okay, this is, you know, let's, let's just stop for a minute and talk about why, why it is you're feel like you're really feeling the way you're feeling. Right. Because. Typically it's not, you know, so-and-so has disrespected me. I don't feel— or, or it's like that, um, you know, I'm gay and everybody else needs to get out of my way, right? Like, forget everybody else because this is who I am and I hate everybody, right? And that's like a— I think that's definitely a natural piece for, you know, especially an adolescent, teen, young adult coming out, and, and probably for anybody coming out, but than, you know, just seeing in, in the space where I work. And they need to work through that because that's, that's not okay to continue. They will not, you know, it will not end well.

No. Well, and it won't end well on the other side either. And that's why I say I want to give people enough room to like grow into it. But if they don't, after 5 or 6 years, if there's no— okay, then it's time for that relationship to truly like move into a different space altogether, you know. And I always get the question like, well, you know, how did your, you know, ex-wife do this? Well, it wasn't easy at first, and then we kind of went through a really good space. And then due to other things, we don't really have any relationship at this point, and I'm okay with that. And even our kids are okay with that because it is just what it is. But I gave room. She also gave room. I'm not going to say it was a one-way street, and you just finally figure it out sometimes. But I love what you just said, and I'd love to give something to your listeners that's a really great tool that I use when people are like, but this is what you have to do. So let's take your example of the teen who says, well, I'm gay and you just need to have to accept this. So here's the tool. So then say, and this can be used with anybody, but like, okay, so then if I do accept this, then what? And whatever they say and say, okay, and then what? And then what? This is not being a jerk. This is like, I'm trying to get that person to like, what's really what you're wanting from the person that you're saying you have to accept it? Because, right, you have to accept it isn't— it actually isn't what they're trying— they want to be accepted. Okay, let's get real about that. But it's about the fourth or fifth time you ask this beautiful question of then what or so what. I don't Really like, so what? Because it sounds like a sassy little kid. But okay, so if I accept you, then what? What is it you're wanting?

Right.

And then if they answer and say, okay, and then if I do that, then what is it you're wanting? Because first we're starting to have a conversation. Now, an adolescent teen's probably going to go, Mom or Dad, you're being a real jerk right now. Okay, well, we're the parents, so we get a little bit of privilege to be that. The whole point of the exercise is to really get to the bottom line. And it's such a powerful question. I use it all the time in my coaching practice with people. They'll say, well, if I come out, then all my friends are going to reject me. Okay. And then what? And it always comes down to, well, I don't want to feel lonely. I don't want to experience loneliness. I don't want to experience rejection. But sometimes it takes that 3 or 4 times of asking and suddenly it's like, Okay, so here's what I just heard you say. You don't want to come out and lose friends because you don't want to experience rejection and loneliness. So let's work with rejection and loneliness. How could you not feel rejected and lonely? And what could you do? And I think this is something that parents—

Oh my gosh.

Ask the questions. Allow your child, teach them how to do this. Like, okay, so mom and dad, you're really having a hard time accepting because you're afraid of what other people will think. So what if other people think this, then what? Now you'd have to— I'm going to give some credit. If a teen could ask those kinds of questions, I'm going to be like high-fiving and like, wow, you're not on social media, are you?

Or maybe you are. Exactly.

Maybe you are on social media and you're going for like the Deepak Chopras and all that. I don't know. But it's just such a— I feel like it's a really valuable tool. That people can take away from this conversation and really learn and use.

Oh my goodness, absolutely. Because not only can you use it in this specific conversation, you can really use it in every, you know, every time you kind of hit a communication roadblock, right? Where you're kind of— I love that so much. And I hope everybody out there is like really taking this in, rewind it again, use it with your spouse.

And if I don't make dinner, then what? See how far you get with that one.

Right. Yeah. Good luck. Good luck. Well, you know, I actually have used it a lot, even with DoorDash.

Yeah, exactly. But in the few times that I've had the beautiful privilege, and I do consider it a beautiful privilege to work. I'm not a therapist. Coach is completely separate. So there's a lot of times I'm like, hey, y'all need therapy. You know, I would love, but you know, but there's been a few times throughout my coaching career where I've had the privilege of work work with, you know, a couple, a husband and a wife, you know, sometimes been the wife coming out, other times been the husband coming out. Where that questioning has helped that couple navigate so much, and really start to see each other, even though they're in different sides of the court, so to speak, it kind of almost helps bring them together, you know,. And, uh, that's why I love sharing that tool. I think it's one of them.

Oh my gosh. Well, thank you. That is, that is really, it is so valuable. And so I'm just sitting here thinking, oh my goodness, like the number of conversations, because I know, you know, what plays in, and this is for everyone, you know, not just parents when your child comes out, but you know, like in your space, when married couples, one comes, you know, this is across the board where there is that. Sometimes you're so stuck and frozen in that fear and that, that what-if, right, that having a question like this to really use as a tool to slow it down and really get to the bottom of, okay, what is, what is causing this fear? What am I most afraid of?

Yeah, what's underneath all of this? Because there's always something underneath. There's always, always, always. And you can do that different for us with your— you can do this with yourself. You don't have to have somebody else. It's like Okay, I really, I really want to get up and exercise, but I just don't feel like doing it this morning. Okay, and then what? Well, right, then I'll feel like I got better rest. Okay, and if you get better rest, then what? Well, then I'll feel more alive. Okay, and you feel more alive, then what you'd be able to do? Well, then I'll be much more focused at work. Okay, so you kind of give yourself a hall pass today because you know, hey, I'm, I'm not Other people say, well, if I miss it, then I'm going to feel guilty.

Okay.

And then if you feel guilty, then what? Well, then I probably will have a really cruddy day. That one, you're like, okay, do you want to have a cruddy day or you want to have a good day? It's just, it's so— I do this with myself all the time, like, because I've got a lot of, you know, as we all do, I have a lot of stuff going on. And sometimes I'm like, right, well, I could edit the book or I could do this. But if I don't edit the book, I'm like, yeah, if you don't edit the book, then what? It'll be there tomorrow. They'll be, you know, of course the book's sitting here yelling at me right now. Like, that's what you say every day to me, you know?

But, um, I understand that.

Yeah. My office is a very fun place to play because everything talks back to me, my book, my podcast, all this stuff, my clients. But, um, but, uh, I think it is a powerful thing also for you parents. I want to just— because I've had some challenges with my own parents, I think it's important to know your child still loves you. This has nothing to do with something you did wrong. This has nothing to do with not being loved. And I know that's a hard thing for many parents to wrap their head around. But if you realize, or you can start to step into, I'm not going to tell you what to do, but if you can start to be invited in to think about how much does your child love themselves if they're saying, this is who I am? And how much more do you love your child when they're being exactly who they're meant to be? There's a beautiful story that, um, it's been at least 7, 6, 7 years ago. That I was listening to, or I was actually watching Oprah and she had Martha Beck on, really well-known life coach.

Yeah.

She was kind of Oprah's life coach protégé at the time. I was kind of, I was pretty, probably 3, 4 years into my coaching practice at this point. And she said something that has stuck with me.

Forever.

She goes, it's interesting about— and, and this was about the time she was kind of coming public about being a lesbian. I was like, oh my God, she's one of us, right? And I was like kind of shocked by it. But she said, here's the interesting thing. She goes, as I've learned in my own journey coming out of the closet— of course my ears immediately perked up— oh, she goes, if I'm pretending and I'm in a relationship and I'm pretending who I am in that relationship. And that person who's having a relationship with me is not aware that I'm pretending. I'm having a pretend relationship. But suddenly, if I'm in a relationship and I'm pretending to be somebody I'm not, and I feel like my spouse is pretending to be somebody they're not because they're afraid to tell me who they really are, and it just has nothing to do with sexuality. Like, there's lots of things we pretend to be to be in our relationship. She goes, If I'm pretending, they're pretending, guess what? We're having a pretend relationship. And that's really stuck with me. And especially when you're dealing with your child, if your child's pretending to be somebody they're not, you're actually not having a relationship with your child. You're having a relationship with the person your child is pretending to be. And just let that sink in, because that's huge.

That is, that is so huge. That is so absolutely profound. And it's so completely true, right?

Yeah. Because I came out at 19 to my parents and there's a blessing in this whole story. I believe there's a blessing. I actually, and I say this, Anybody who's heard me before, they're like, oh, we know what he's about to say, but that's okay. Hear it again because it's a good, it's a good lesson. I actually don't believe I'd be sitting here having this conversation if I'd stayed out of the closet when I came out at 19 because I was naive. I was not sexually active per se. I'd done what most quote unquote heterosexual boys had done. You know, played a little bit around with a girl here and there, but I'd never had sex sex, never like, you know, beyond the Monica Lewinsky, Clinton stuff. I hadn't gone even to that.

Okay.

And I came out right as the AIDS epidemic was just, just starting. I honestly believe if I had stayed out, I would probably be dead. Because I wouldn't have known what was going on. I would have been like, let's go do this, all that sort of stuff.

Right.

But then what that led me to was for the next— so from 19 to 36, I pretended to be somebody I wasn't. So everybody that I was having relationships with, I was in a pretend relationship with. Now, there was aspects of it that were true. I loved my wife. I cared about my family. I loved my friends. But there was a piece of Rick that was completely pretend.

Right.

And man, that completely pretend ate me alive because I was one thing in certain spaces and something completely different. Now, all of us do this. I'm not saying, you know, I'm talking more to the depths of I had to keep my story straight.

Right.

And it got really torturous, literally torturous to keep the story straight until it didn't. And the reason I share that story is not only for kids who are listening, because I want you to go enjoy your life and be who you are, because there's nothing worse than pretending to be something you're not. But I also share that story, hopefully that a parent will hear that and go, oh my God, this guy was tortured from 19 to 36. And for some of my clients, I mean, I have clients that are 65, 70. The oldest person I've worked with so far is 78 years old and just coming out of the closet.

Oh, wow.

So just, just let that picture sink in. For that many years of your life, you have hidden this. And when he worked with me, he goes, I've known since I was 18. But again, society said this wasn't landing. He goes, and I, and I had a beautiful life. He goes, I had a beautiful life. Beautiful life. I had an amazing journey with my wife. I have great kids and it's just, it's those things. But I share that story because to me, pretending is one of the worst. Okay. Pretending if you're in Hamilton, hey, you're in a hit Broadway show. Okay, cool. But pretending to be somebody you're not. In fact, when I have the beautiful privilege of speaking to an audience, The last line of every talk, regardless of whether I'm speaking to entrepreneurs or college students or whoever it is, is the truth of who you are is far more powerful than the false truth that you're pretending to be. So go show the world who you are, because I want everybody to be who they're meant to be. Wow.

Is there just like a— you'd hear a pin drop in the room when you say that, because that is— that is so powerful, and that is something that every single one of us can benefit from, right?

It doesn't matter about your sexuality or gender identity or anything. It's about who we are as humans.

You know, But, um, and I think it also, though, you know, speaking specifically to, to my audience and to your audience, it is, it helps us wrap our heads around, right? It helps us really. And something else that you had said a little bit earlier that really struck me, and I don't remember exactly what it was, but it's along the same lines where, um, This is not about parents. This is not about you. Right. And this is, this is, and I think that's a very easy thing for us as parents, or perhaps as the spouse who didn't know, right. To be like, what did I do wrong? Right. What, what could I have said? This is a failure on my part, whatever, you know, narrative you have and to realize, oh, this is not about you at all. This is about your child, your spouse, your friend, your, you know, your adult child stepping into their 100% authentic self.

I love that you brought that up, Heather, because I agree it's not about them, but it is about them. It's not about them primarily. All of us play second base in these sets. Spaces. When my daughters were figuring out themselves, oh, I, I, I became the jerk parent. And I'm like, oh my God, I can't believe I just did this. I said I would never do this. My parents did this. Why did I just do that? And it actually became my very first Huffington Post article where I talked about a situation with my older daughter. And I'm like, you just did what your parents did to you, Rick, about her exploring her sexuality. Bad shame, all of that on you, Rick. But when I realized, okay, wait, this isn't about me, it's about her. And I need to like move to second, you know, move to second place.

Right.

Then I could breathe and then I could see clearly. Well, kind of clearly. We still have to like work through it. But, and here's, I'm going to share this because I think this is pivotal for parents too. I had this freakout moment when she said she was dating a girl. I totally freaked out. Why? Because my parents had said to me, you are going to ruin your daughter's lives and you're going to teach them to be just like you. And there was in, you know, high-definition TV happening in front of my eyes. And I was like, oh my gosh. I don't know if I, I don't know if I can bear this. And that was really truly what it was is I don't know if I can bear this. And then I suddenly said, Rick, back it up, man. Back it up. Yeah. It isn't about you. And that's why I love your podcast. But boy, I think you bring that forward. Like it's about having the conversations and it's about making this about your, your kids and about making it about others.. And we, we all beautifully get to be humble if we can get ourselves to that space. Humble and take the second space.

Right. But I think that you— excuse me— just said that so very clearly. It's not that we don't matter and that how we're feeling doesn't matter and that it's, you know, it does very much, but it is not a matter of this is a reflection on you. This is, you know, it's kind of shifting that from like taking this on as like, oh my gosh, to, okay, I can, I can sit with this and process it and it still might be super uncomfortable and I may not understand it, but oh my gosh, this is my kid. So, wow. Thank you. So many absolutely beautiful pieces and incredible tools that you have shared. And I'm laughing because I had written down like 6 questions I wanted to ask you and, and I didn't ask any of them, but I, I love the way, right? I know. Should I rapid fire them to you?

Because I love rapid fire because I'm like, I can, you know, I can go on, but then I'm like, oh, I can throw it, I can drop like— I think I can. Let you step aside. No, I— yeah, I'd love— let's see what we can do here. I'd love it.

Let's rapid fire for like 2 minutes before we wrap up. I think that'll be super fun. Okay, so you talk about having a 6-step process.

Yep.

What are the 6 steps?

6 steps are to realize you're in confusion, and the only way you get out of confusion is to get curious. And the more curious you get, the more courageous you get to go do the thing and be who you want to be. But it takes more than courage because you got to commit to it. And as you commit, you gain confidence. And the more confidence you have, the more consistently you can show up as a parent of an LGBTQ child or as a person who is LGBTQ. Wow.

Okay, that's awesome. Again, everybody rewind and, and write that down. That can be your new Post-it note. I don't know if you're like me. I have Post-it notes all over my desk that have all these different things. That's a Post-it note right there. I love that. That's awesome. Oh my goodness. Okay, so next one. What is the most important— we kind of touched on this already, but I just want to see what you'll say in rapid fire— most important thing parents can do to support their LGBTQ child?

Take second place.

Love it. What is the most— or one piece, not most important, but one piece of advice that you would give to a young person coming out?

You're worth it.

Oh, I love that.

Bravo.

And then what is your advice for overcoming fear, because that is part of your tagline, which I love.

Fear only as powerful as we give them life.

Rick, it has been such a delight, and I think that we could probably go on for another hour, but That's right. Yes, exactly. We will, we will, we will shift over, everyone. This is so exciting, and I'm so— you have— I will put everything that you need to know about Rick in the show notes, and you can find his website, his podcasts, his books, all of these amazing things. And I mean, if you even picked up like one of these absolute pearls of wisdom, you can only imagine what his books and his podcasts are like. So I highly, highly recommend them.

You might not want —maybe I talked to the gay male man. It's a little bit, um, true.

You may not, but that might be a listen at your own discretion.

Honestly, if you're a parent who's like got an older gay male teen, you could pick up some stuff from that because I go— we go for the jugular on talking about the funny stuff that older gay males do. I'm not talking about doing stuff to teens, but like Man, they're just like teenage boys even at 40-some years old. So just, just saying, just saying. I actually think having an older—

well, he's 21 now. I— for me, it is, it is a ton of awesome information, and it's stuff that I wish I had known 5 years ago, 4 years ago, 3 years ago, right?

Because I like to put that caveat in because that's one where— now that's important— the potty mouth and everything comes out, and it's really fun, but But yeah, listen at your own risk.

Yes, please do. So is there anything else that you'd like to add, to share before we wrap up?

I think the only other thing is to realize, which we've already touched on, and I hate to like say it again, but I also love saying it again. This is a journey. It's a journey. There is no destination. I don't— there's lots of destinations along the way, but I don't believe the coming out journey and being a parent of somebody who's in the LGBTQ space, there is no finality to it because my parents are in their 70s and I'm, you know, late 50s and we're still in the journey. And the only finality that actually comes is when we depart this experience. But even then, the journey continues because it's everything that we left behind to teach others. So the journey is the journey and just embrace the journey. Now that sounds very cliché and coachy, but I believe it. The journey is the journey.

I, it's true. It is absolutely true. And, um, I just appreciate so much you coming on the show today and being a part of this incredible conversation.

Well, thank you for having me. I've so enjoyed it. I can't wait. I can't wait to have you online. So this will be fun to continue it over there.

So, uh, that's right. Exactly. It will be. Oh my goodness. Yes. To be continued, everyone.