ve-BINAR: Lead With Intention - Not Intensity

Recorded and will be made available on our website later for everyone else who isn't able to join to enjoy. And that way we're also streaming live on LinkedIn and if there are questions being posed, I'll be able to ask those during the course of the webinar or at the end during the Q and A. Gina, welcome. Great to have you here. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Thank you, Henning. I'm excited to be here. So I am an executive coach, leadership expert. I have led Fortune 500 teams for over two decades, focusing in the financial industry, mostly in the healthcare industry. A lot of experience working with healthcare executives and surgeon leaders. And we focus a lot on the assessment, which is energy leadership. A lot of that is based in emotional intelligence. So I work with many clients on their current leadership challenges, ways to grow trust and really have a more fulfilling life and not be as stressed as many are. In that pressurized environment.

Is it fair to say that out of your own experience as a leader in the healthcare space came the, the motivation and the superpower to become a coach for exactly that target audience?

Yes, absolutely. I had been leading teams, like I said, for over two decades and in the healthcare space it is extremely complex. It's a high stakes environment and there are very unique challenges, but a lot of them are based in not just the IQ and the technical expertise is usually how people get into a leadership position. What I uncovered myself just personally and then through the years working with many of these individuals is that the emotional intelligence side is really skill based and it's something that can be learned and it transforms a leader's opportunity. That's what propelled me to start my own business last year.

Now, when you were promoted into a leadership role in this industry, were you given training or coaching?

Absolutely not. Yes, absolutely not. Many of these big companies have internal departments, right. That are training departments or through HR and they talk about things like listening skills, listening versus hearing, et cetera. But like most leaders, you learn through failure, through examples, through time. And I've had many of those scenarios as I led teams and really had to work on that entire skill set for myself. And it makes a huge difference when you are intentional about it and you spend time really reflecting and working on transforms the current culture and it can make a huge impact in people's lives.

For those who aren't familiar with the healthcare space, you spoke about surgeon leaders. Yes, I think everyone knows what a surgeon is and what a leader is. But what's a surgeon leader?

Yes. So surgeon leaders usually in Their specialty. So I work a lot with acute care surgeons or trauma surgeons. But a surgeon leader is someone who is in charge of the entire trauma department. So they've got colleagues that may have challenges that roll those challenges up to them. So in addition to their own practice and their elective cases, they also have the administrative responsibility of teams of building culture, and that could be in any specialty. Same for thoracic surgery. Same for colorectal surgery. There's usually a surgeon leader and they have additional responsibilities on top of their practice.

Okay. So that's where the emotional intelligence, leadership skills come in and need to be there. You spoke about this being a high pressure environment. I don't want to sit here and assume I know or everybody else knows what that really means for a surgeon leader. Can you speak a little bit?

Absolutely.

How that environment is different from possibly other leadership environments?

Absolutely. So a perfect example would be in an actual operating room, a surgery itself. Right. Working with, like a thoracic surgeon who is working close to a pulmonary artery or vein. They still have teams in the room, and the way that they regulate their emotions and handle stress with the patient being put first makes all the difference in the world. I've worked with surgeons who've thrown instruments across the room in cases, and the team has been unsettled. People have chosen not to work with them. And then I've also worked with surgeons that have a calming presence and they're able to really focus on the task at hand, become efficient, have great outcomes, et cetera. And so now you layer on top of that a surgeon leader. So in that space, it's complex because they're driven by patient outcomes. Number one, they're driven by very unique personalities and dare I say, strong egos because they're very intelligent individuals. Right. They've gone to school for many years. They already come to the table with that at hand and now add the layer of working with people.

Would you also describe a hospital in an operating room environment as one where, you know, you're constantly not just pressed for out for good outcomes, but also pressed for time. There's never enough time to focus, never enough time to spend on coaching and leading people?

Absolutely. What many of my clients have shared with me is that they wish that there was time during their residency, during the opportunity where they're getting trained to learn about communication skills, to learn how to handle conflict. Now, because it's so fast paced, they have to make quick decisions on their feet, they have to work with other departments, they have to deal with the different team Members, maybe that are new. I mean, it's, it's not a surprise that the healthcare industry has gone through a lot since COVID and there are a lot of individuals now that are traveling nurses that are new to the industry. People are retiring and so they're dealing with different, different individuals maybe that don't have as much experience. And it's rushed and it's fast paced and to pause and take time to figure out how to, how do I handle this situation appropriately is something that is very difficult for them to do.

Yeah. Since you already mentioned that they typically don't get that kind of training during their residency. What does a typical client for you look like? When, when does somebody realize that they need help?

That's a great question. Right now, most of the clients that are coming to me are in leadership roles and are finding themselves where they're burnt out. Their position is at risk because they are flying off the handle. They're not able to regulate their emotions. They're unfulfilled. They are living out the grind and it's just unsustainable. So I'm either talking with healthcare executives that are managing teams of these individuals and working with them and also working with surgeon leaders that are right in the thick of it but don't have the skill set to know how to get out of it.

So who typically comes to you? Is it the administrator who sees what's happening or is it the surgeon leader themselves who come and say, I need help?

Frankly, it's bullfenning. I get calls from both. I also have many surgeon leaders that are questioning their chosen lot in life. Why did I do this? I'm not getting the benefit that I thought. It's not as fulfilled. I'm completely stressed. Don't know what to do about it. Thinking about maybe a career change, I mean, it's, it's very stressful and it's impacting all parts of their lives. And so I'll, I'll see it from, from both ends, actually.

Okay, what, what's a, what are the typical flaws or faults that you're seeing in your coaching that you then attempt to correct? Do you have like a top three list of the things that surgeon leaders typically do not do well as a leader?

Yes. Well, so it applies to surgeon leaders, it applies to healthcare executives. Anyone in a very stressful leadership position. But emotional intelligence is founded in five pillars. So self regulation, self awareness of what's going on, motivation, social skills. Okay. And communication. And those are skill sets. So what usually comes out in a lot of our coaching sessions is stress related not knowing how to handle things. And I utilize an assessment that's called the energy leadership assessment. It is very different than are you familiar with disc or. Right. Many of the other assessments that are out there are personality based. This is attitudinal. This has to do with the way you look at things and your perceptions and your experiences that got you to this point. And once you know what that looks like, you're able to be coached and to work through that.

You mentioned the stress environment and the pressure they're under when obviously when they come to you or do they come to you and say, I got this problem, you need to solve it now you got five minutes and I'm exaggerating a little bit. Are they expecting you to solve that problem just like they're being asked under pressure to solve a problem in the operating room? Or do they understand and allow you and themselves the time to get to get to a resolution?

Yes. So if I was solving the problem for them, that would be more of a consulting role. My role as an executive coach is to remain curious and to ask them questions so they uncover what will work best for them. Then they're the experts on themselves and they're able to determine what the proper path is going to be. There's a lot of self reflection and in very stressful situations, learning how to reset is really important. So these are some of the tools that we talk about recognizing. So the four R's recognize, regulate your emotions, reframe the situation and then respond. A lot of times that will allow them to just pause so they're not sending the quick email, sending the text, picking up the phone and blasting someone, but actually pausing and thinking about what is the feeling, what is the thought process I want to leave that individual with? Do I want them to just move forward with solution or do I need them to. Will they get defensive based on how I approach it? So mostly it's through questions, mostly it's through them uncovering and understanding areas of opportunity.

Okay, now obviously in our audience are not surgeon leaders by and large, but you know, occasionally healthcare executives, but involved in sales. How do you see the skills that you're providing transfer into other industries and into other leadership roles?

So leadership roles as a whole are extremely intensive. There's a lot of weight and responsibility for outcomes, for expectations for performance because of that stressed environment. It's extremely similar. Right. Your we talked about what's the difference between intensity and intention. And in a leadership role, the intensity mindset is going to make you more reactive, you're going to be more adrenaline driven. It's unsustainable. It leads to burnout. So it pertains to everyone. Right. Micromanagement can come from that disengagement. And definitely team culture on the opposite side, which is intentional. Learning how to be more present, building your emotional intelligence skills, being strategic, building trust, executive presence and influence. It pertains to any and all leaders.

Yeah. As you say this, I'm reflecting on my own roles, which are totally outside of healthcare. But what you're describing is correct. The ability to be intentional about what you're doing and try to ignore the intensity that is always around, never is without. So you described a, what I would label like a tool set, a toolbox that you provide executives with. I think you call it the four Rs.

Four Rs, yes. Something quick and easy for them to. To reset in the moment. Yes.

Can you walk us through an example, maybe from a surgeon leader, how they would apply that framework to a particular scenario that you're familiar with in their role as a surgeon leader?

Absolutely. I had a conversation last week with one of my clients who is a surgeon leader, and he's in charge of as to why and did you understand how that affects. Affected the entire group and the concern of safety. So those four R's put him in a place where he was more in control and he was not reactive, he was proactive.

Okay. Are there other secret sauces that you can share for. For a leader in any other industry that we. They can apply?

Yes. So daily shifts from chaos to clarity. I think what's extremely helpful if you are working on emotional intelligence, to have a daily reflection. I would take a journal, start the day off with intention. Especially if you're looking to work on this and to rebuild culture on your team is to decide how you want to show up that day. And if listening is difficult for you, then you want to be able to focus on listening, meaning body language, as well as. Not just with your words, but with your actions. So when people are speaking in a meeting, you're looking at them, you're not holding your phone, you're not taking your notes. So you want to make an intentional decision in the morning, and then at the very end of the day, you want to reflect on how did I do? And also reach out to the colleagues that you trust to say, what are your thoughts? How do you think I showed up? Is there any way that I could have supported you better? Et cetera. So you're being intentional in the morning you're reflecting at the end of the day and you're looking for small wins.

Certainly something that any one of us can do. The idea of not having like one big step and everything is solved and forever good, but a journey of many little steps, little improvements.

Yes, absolutely.

I already mentioned that you wrote a book and it's about to get published. Tell us a little bit about the project.

Yes, I'm excited. Here it is. The book is called the Leadership Wake Up Call, How Emotional Intelligence Turns Smart Leaders into Trusted Ones. And a lot of this is based in the research. So Daniel Goleman, Harvard Business Review, has pulled his name many times. He did a lot of research around what makes great leaders. And surprise, emotional intelligence was at the top of the list. Another example is, is through Google, they did something called Project Oxygen, which was their own internal study. Thousands of employees they surveyed to figure out who were great leaders, who were great managers, and what comprised of those individuals. And again, emotional intelligence was at the top of the list. Psychological safety, where people felt that they were able to share their thoughts without any repercussions. So I'm excited about this because it's stories of just leading teams. Like I shared five different Fortune 500 companies. There have been great examples that I've gone through. But it also is based in a lot of studies and science around why that this is the case and then how to build those skills.

And from what I gather about the book applies to any type of leadership situation. And it has sort of this common scenario that you and you mentioned that earlier on in, in our conversation that leaders typically are great subject matter experts. They're intelligent, they know their field. That's how they became leaders. Now they also need to. Need to learn the, the leadership aspect and, you know, learn the emotional intelligence in addition to the intelligence they already possess. Is that how you would frame the book and frame your coaching overall?

Yes, we. So what we do is we unpack emotional intelligence and we take examples of each of the pillars and we talk through how to handle tough conversations. What happens if you work for a leader that is not emotionally intelligent? That's happened to me. And how can you manage up as well as to manage down through some of those opportunities? How do you rebuild team culture if you come on board and now you're a leader and the culture is one that is not very conducive to performance. It's not conducive to people being successful. So we talk through a lot of those different things. And how do you stop burnout Right. And you start leading sustainably. Because it's not. I believe that everyone can be a leader wherever they are, whether you have a title or not. The way that you work with people and the way that you influence those are around you in a positive way is a huge opportunity.

We'll open the microphones shortly for questions, but I'll have one or two more for you if I may.

Of course.

First of all, share when and where the book will become available.

Yes. So right now the targeted date is June 1. Somewhere between June 1 and June 15, it will go live on Amazon, Kindle format as well as the printed version. The leadership wake up call. I will have something on my company website which is centro forzagroup.com C E N T R O forza F O r z a group.com and that's. That'll have more information.

Good. Now back to leadership and to coaching. Because you, you mentioned a scenario earlier about being a leader without a title. Being a leader without having that formal responsibility, that's been an area that's been fascinating for me. I've written a few blog posts about it. What do you see as the prime things that anyone can do in any type of role to. To establish themselves as a leader without the title, without the formal authority over other people?

Yes. It's evident in many different businesses where you have to work with other teams. Right. But they don't have a direct reporting structure to you. I believe that all of that is built in trust. And how do you build trust? But to lean into those individuals and get to know them, build connection.

One to. Want to ask Gina a question, Dan? I. You see your hand? Yeah. It's big.

Well, I'm impressed by the focus you have because I can't believe that a doctor, a group of doctors, could be all that interested in. In enlightenment as a result of saving lives. I mean, I have doctors in my family and they don't like to be told what to do.

No.

So I'm interested. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

So, because you end up with narcissistic leaders, I would imagine. But the niche you're looking at is very interesting. That you're working in is very interesting. And the fact that it. You really nailed down a niche, it's not outside of what you're, what you're working with. Do you do financial coaching with these people? Do they. I mean, what are they coming? How do they decide? I don't have a problem. I'm a doctor. I don't have a problem.

I'm.

You Know, when do they realize they got a problem, they need you.

Yes, that's a great.

I mean, I think you've talked about it a little bit, but I'm like.

That'S a great question, Dan. I think it's twofold. It comes to me two different ways. Many times it's the healthcare executive saying, hey, my guy or my girl or whoever. This individual is losing human capital, losing any sort of respect among the other departments because they are not handling things the right way. They're flying off the handle. They're creating more problems than solutions. But we see something inside them. They're. They're extremely intelligent, extremely smart. They believe that what they do and what they say matters. We don't know how to get them out of it, but they're important enough to us to invest in them. And we. When I spend time with them, Dan, what is amazing to me now, first of all, anytime you're coaching anyone or working with someone, they have to be motivated and engaged. They can't be pulled in against their will. They have to know, oh, I don't know why this is a challenge for me, why I'm getting negative feedback. The moment that they're in and they want to learn about themselves, it truly can become a transformation. And it starts with self awareness. And what I have learned, and there's one surgeon that I work with that just always pops into my head is he has shared with me that our journey in coaching not only has saved his job, but it also has saved his home life. Because when he has gone home and been stressed and the way he's handled things is not been his best self, he has shared. He's like, I just didn't know how to do it. He's like, I'm smart. He's like, frankly, I think most of the time I'm the smartest one in the room, but I don't know what to say, how to say it. And here's the great part, usually about those individuals is they're passionate. You want them taking care of your family members. Right. They're all about the patient. But when it comes to working with other people, that's just not a skill set that they've ever been taught. Yeah.

I would think there's a lot of entitlement there. You got a doctor going off for two weeks and not communicating and not coordinating that with. With the team that I suspect that they're coaching you sometimes.

Yeah.

Or trying.

Yes.

Trying to coach you.

Right. Or. Or trying to ask me to give them the answer and that's not how this works. That is, that is 100% not how it works. But I will share this. I am working. So I'm in Raleigh, North Carolina and I'm actually working with Duke University Health System and I have built a, some criteria that they are now going to start in July to put in their general surgery residency program around emotional intelligence because they realize it is a gap, it is a huge gap when they come out on the, on the other side and they become real life surgeons. Now they have to work with patients, now they have to work with staff in a different way. Now they have to build their practice. And there are other opinions, other opinions and people that have different ways to do things. Right. And there are studies that show that malpractice rates decline with higher EQ and awareness of physicians.

Yeah, it's a, it's. Could you do this? I'm sorry, do you do this virtually or do you do it in person? Are you doing. Live with, in person with the client?

Both. Both, both.

Okay, so you could take clients all over the country then, correct?

Absolutely. So we'll, we'll do usually weekly engagements and then what has worked very well is I'll fly in or I'll drive in on a quarterly basis and sit down with them and the VP or the CEO of the hospital so that I help facilitate a conversation around what the vision is, what the improvement is, what they need from each other. It's always a surprise to me, Dan, that they don't even talk to each other about how things are going or what is needed or how they need to show up for. It's, it's a, it's a great opportunity. Let's just say that. And when they make a shift, it is a life changing shift for them and they know it and they feel it.

Are you doing anything with clinics like practices like practice management kind of things?

Practice management? Yes, practice management and staff. Right. So I'll come in and do like a keynote or lunch and learns will they'll have me come in and talk to bring everyone a little bit of self awareness around that I think.

Do you use any particular set of work out there? You know, like I don't know, psych psychiatrists and psychologists that do particular kinds of things. Because it sounds like you're picking up some of that on your own. But do you, who do you study?

So some of it, yes, I've picked up on my own. The other part is, is that I'm internationally credentialed through the Coaching foundation and IPEC So I've got multiple credentials. One of the assessment tools and probably one of the main ones, in addition to a360 is that energy leadership assessment. It's attitudinal, it's perception based. But I find that that is extremely eye opening for every individual because it has nothing to do with your personality, it has to do with the way that you're viewing things. Many of the leaders that I talk to are looking at scenarios as a win, lose situation. Right. So if I win, then you lose. And if you win the hospital, then I must lose. That is not. That is not very optimal. Right. And that is definitely not bringing out your best self. So there's different ways to kind of coach through that.

Not very safe either, I guess.

New? No, not very safe. And there are vast differences between how people show up and to your earlier question, when they come to me on their own, it's because they feel like they're trapped and they don't know how to get out of what. They're not fulfilled in any way. They are so stressed, they're questioning the choices that they've made and they don't know what to do. But like, like most athletes, right, they. Athletes use coaches. I mean, working with someone who understands the industry and understands a lot of the basics that have to do with what make great leaders is extremely helpful to them. And to have them work through that again, they're the experts on themselves. So everyone's unique and it's just fun to watch it unfold.

Thank you. Thank you, Dan, for the, for the questions. Any other questions? Anyone else want to put Gina on the hot chair here?

Yeah.

Andrew, thanks for all your comments and insights. You know, the topic of emotional intelligence is such a deep topic that runs through all of your work and broadly in the domain of leadership.

So.

Just another minute or so, if you could just touch on, go a couple of levels deeper with emotional intelligence. To what extent you know, are you or do you. Can you raise it, optimize it, tweak it, help people learn about it or about themselves? You know, you can. You can study many, many different subjects and improve yourself. You can study medicine, you can study leadership. Can you study emotional intelligence? To what extent Is it deeply, deeply ingrained? Is it natural? Is it learned? Is it shaped by cultural and social and environmental variables?

Yes, and that's a great question, Andrew. And what I have found, looking at a variety of different studies, is that it is all of those things, but it is a skill set. You're not innately born with it and so you may pick up aspects of it. Let's say that you are the captain of your soccer team. You may pick up working with individuals through conflict and challenges, or getting feedback from a manager that says, here's a perfect example for me is that when I was leading a team and I was on a call about compensation, one of the managers heard me go silent and. Or saw that I would roll my eyes. I mean, I come from an Italian American background. And so my hands and my eyes and all of the things and my body language speaking before even I did, but I would never have known that that is what was happening. So that's the self awareness piece. So it is a skill set, and it absolutely can be studied and it definitely can be built and practiced. The very first pillar is self awareness. The second pillar is self regulation. Okay. The third pillar is motivation, which is what is motivating you, what gets you up in the morning, what is your why as to why you really want to improve this. Social skills is the other pillar. And then communication, you know, executive presence kind of falls in the mix of all of that. Like how do you present yourself in group settings or in meetings? But all of those things are absolutely skill sets that can be built. Do some individuals have an innate nature with this? And are they intuitive, where they're more empathic and they lean in to ask people how they're feeling, etc. Yes, absolutely. But it can be learned. It absolutely can be learned. I'm working with a female leader right now in a hospital system, and she has a very difficult time in meetings focusing on when people are talking that she feels is really doesn't mean anything to her. I don't care what they have to say. That's not my. That's not my subject. That's not my department. And she has tried to move into VP roles and has been kept at her level because she's not able to be fully aware and she's not able to regulate her body language, and she's also not able to communicate effectively. So she's a verbal processor. She talks about everything, through everything, and she needs to be on point. Executive presence, executive speak, that can be taught. And now she's starting at the very beginning, which is just self awareness. She's keeping a journal. She's asking trusted colleagues, can you do me a favor? I'm really trying to work on this. Can you just keep an eye on me in meetings and see if there's anything you notice? And then she becomes aware when they say you picked up your phone three times like you were supposed to really, you were supposed to be paying attention when Dr. Davis was speaking and you didn't, you could tell that you were not listening. That's something that she can build. Is that helpful?

Thank you.

Thank you.

I'd love to build on what you just shared about self awareness because I think it's so interesting and I think it's also quite interesting that the system in which these doctors have come up and become successful and gotten to this team leadership position doesn't necessarily value that self awareness because, you know, you have to be cutthroat, you have to be willing in your early days to work the a hundred hour weeks and you have to do all of these things. And I think the example you just shared about that, that person who wants to change, they want to get to the next level because that lack of self awareness has held them back. I'm just curious, like, is there a trend in terms of, you know, have they hit some sort of wall or has there been like, maybe they've faced a malpractice suit as you said, you know, people who are more emotionally intelligent perhaps don't have that kind of challenge in the same way. So I'm just curious, like, is it a lack of self awareness or is it an intentional, like, I don't really care what people think about me as long as I'm, you know, the best neurosurgeon. And not to say, you know, neurosurgeons do have many, not all, many neurosurgeons, right. Have that God or have that ego. So I'm just, I think I just asked you a bunch of questions all at once. But I think it's really interesting in terms of that self awareness, like what happens in the system that makes them say, you know what, I could benefit from coaching. And I think that I would like.

To invest in this great set of questions and I would agree that they're the egos in the world of surgery in general. Doesn't matter if you're a neurosurgeon or an orthopedic surgeon, et cetera, are definitely present. I think if from my perspective and how I'm starting to work with these individuals, what I have seen over the last two decades is this, the days of surgeons owning their own practices where they get to call the shots and say, if you want me operating at your hospital and bringing in these patients and doing this and that, this is how I do it and I want my own team and this and that. What has shifted is the way that that has now culminated into their hospital owned or their groups. And so now they have to play in a different sandbox and play nice with the hospital that's paying them a salary. But they also have to be able to increase their volume. It's the first time I think they have to consider not just their perspective but now the perspective of everyone around them. So I think that is part of the shift and the other part of the shift is we've got employees and individuals now that are unwilling to stay silent if they're not getting treated properly. Right. There's self awareness and emotional intelligence and the generational changes are now happening where people are looking for a great quality of work and, and don't necessarily want to punch 80 hour work weeks and they're working with a surgeon who is tone deaf when it comes to that stuff. So they're getting feedback, they're getting called into hr, they're having to take anger management classes. I mean this stuff is now starting to become more prevalent and that will either cause them to reach out to me or the healthcare system will reach out and say smart individual, great leader. I know they could be doing so much more but they are stuck and we don't know how to help them. Does that, does that make sense in terms of that self awareness piece? A little bit, yeah.

Thank you.

Yeah, that's, I mean that's a great set of questions because certainly what I do see in the specialties that are still maintaining their own practices, many orthopedic surgeons and groups are not owned by the hospital. Neurosurgery is usually one of those as well. But a lot of the general surgeons, OB GYNs, GYNs, ENTs, there's a different, there's a different culture now because they are hospital based and they have to get along with everyone a little bit more.

Great. Thank you Lisa for the question and thank you Gina for joining us here. Was a pleasure to have you loved and definitely took my little nuggets away for my own leadership style. You already shared your website. Any other way that people can get in touch with you if they want to?

Absolutely. Please feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn. You my name, which Henning will probably pin, is Gina Maria Catalano. You can contact me directly on there and you can send an email, etc and I would love to support you in any way I can.

Great. And thank you for joining us. Good luck on the, on the book launch. I hope you end up on a bestseller list.

That's the goal. That's the plan. It'll help somebody, and I'm excited about it.

And for everybody else, have a wonderful rest of the week. Take care.

Thank you, everyone.

Bye. Bye.