246: The Power of Habits with Gina Cleo

Foreign.

Dr. Gina Cleo, welcome to her Empire Builder show.

So good to be with you, Tina.

Yay. Okay, so I was saying before we hit record, like, one of the reasons why I really wanted you on was I was talking about habits, and I was talking about, like, high performance and different things. And four people mentioned you to me within the span of one month of which is always such a sign that you're, like, getting great cut through and putting out really, really, really great stuff. So people are saying, I always wonder, like, what do people say about you when you're not around? People are saying wonderful things about you.

Oh, thank you. That means so much. And thank you to all those people, whoever you are. Yeah, right.

It's always nice to hear. Okay, so at the start of your career, you were focusing a lot on the diet world. How has that changed for you? And how did you kind of lock into this whole area of habits? Because reading about your early work and where you started, you could have gone in many different areas. How did you get into this? Like, I'm gonna focus on habits and devote a good portion of your life to it.

Yeah. So I was a dietitian, and yeah, I was helping people to do all sorts of things, whether it was a gain weight, reduce weight, depending on their health. And I found that I could only help people short term. Like, people would come back to my clinic and they'd be like, look, I did this for a couple of days or I did this for a week and then I fell off the wagon. And it was a consistent pattern. And I also reflected on my own life and noticed that I was also struggling with my own sense of lacking self control, lacking discipline. And I was like, why is it that I say I'm going to get up in the morning and do some exercise and I end up scrolling on Facebook marketplace for two hours or say, I'm going to start this diet and I don't like what is going on. And so I started to do some research about the brain and motivation and what motivates us to do the things we do. And how can I harness those good days? Like, what's the ingredient in the good days that I can, like, implement? And the more I research, the more I found that habits are the only proven method to achieving our goals long term. It's the only proven method. Nothing else works long term for any behavior change. And that was it. So I started my PhD in habits. I actually did a bunch of experiments because, look, you can read something in science, but until you actually implement it yourself, and see it for yourself. For me, anyway, that's what I needed to really solidify this theory.

So experiment wise, what was the hardest habit for you to either break or make that was important to you?

Oh, that's a good question. I think the hardest habits are generally mindset stuff like changing because often we think of habits and we think of things like smoking or drinking or exercising, but our habits aren't just our actions, they're also our belief systems, they're how we respond to things. So I think the hardest habits are the ones where I might have a belief about something like say I feel insecure about this thing and I'm trying to change my mindset around that. I think those are the hardest habits actually to change.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm like thinking as you're, as you're talking, they're going, yes, I do think that as well, because in the, in the pursuit of, you know, long term goals that we have, and for most of us, I mean, most people that are listening to this podcast now are highly ambitious, high achieving business women and so all have long term goals. But what I see so much is we have the long term goals, but if those small habits don't change, we can never actually get there. What do you, what do you see as like the daily habits and how much of that contributes to the achievement of that long term goal? If it's for something that you've, you've never done before and you've never been that person before.

Oh, I mean, Vincent van Gogh puts this great quote together and it was great things are achieved by a series of small actions put together. And I'm such a big believer of that. It's, it's about the little things. I think we very often overestimate the big, like grand actions or decisions when really the magic happens in the little moments. Yeah, it's the decision to whatever it was, like pay one small amount towards one debt. It's calling one person that you've been avoiding. It's making one healthy choice in a meal or going to bed 10 minutes earlier. It's those little things compounded and done consistently that create the magic. And there's, there's two sides because I feel like as high achievers, it can be really hard to appreciate that concept and actually do it because we just want to achieve everything like yesterday.

Yeah, totally.

And telling someone to take baby steps sounds so tedious and like not a fun time at all. Whereas on the other end, it's the only way we can achieve something sustainably and we Know that through lots of research and also trial and error. Yeah, yeah.

So why do you think we find it so hard to do the thing that we want to do so that we can be the person we want to be? Like, it's been a. When you're talking at the beginning about the different diets and different things, like, I've dieted every diet most of my life, and it is really, really difficult. And I'm someone with hell of a lot of willpower and a hell of a lot of discipline. So why do we find it so hard?

Change is hard. Our brain doesn't like changing us. We make about 35,000 decisions every single day. And so our brain has to automate a lot of those decisions so that we don't go into burnout. So things that you do all the time, your brain's like, right, I'm going to automate those. Those become habits. And then making a change, you're now disrupting the flow of that rhythm that you already have. And your brain's like, whoa. Change means extra energy, extra thought, extra resources. Like, I'm over here trying to make 35,000 decisions and now you're wanting to make all these changes. Like, that's not cool. So change is hard, I think. And I think as well, we're given so many messages in society like, go hard or go home or scare you, they're not big enough and rubbish. Things like that. I swear, next time I walk into a gym and I see something like that on, like the blackboard they have there, I'm gonna break it.

Just get a big posca and write, no.

Yeah, this is not true. Yeah, here's my website for more details. Yes, but we're, we're sort of told that unless we're giving something 100%, then we're not really that committed and that's not sustainable. Our motivation, everybody's motivation is like a wave. It's up and down from day to day, from moment to moment. And if we're trying to achieve big things, we're having to have loads of motivation, and it's not sustainable to do it like that.

So what is the sustainable way to be able to do it?

Well, when you think of habits, course I'm gonna bring that into it. Yeah, It's. Don't need motivation or willpower or self control. No matter how tired or stressed or busy you are, you will always put your seatbelt on in the car because it's something that you do habitually. And in the same way, if we can create a Life that's filled with the effective habits, the positive habits for us. That is how we create sustainability and that longevity of behaviors.

So if someone's in there, I'm going to tell you something that I thought, you know, you'll probably laugh or roll your eyes a little bit at me when I tell you this story, but I am very much into experimenting with myself as well and trying to get the best out of life and different things. So I did this experiment about, like, I don't know, five years ago now. That was my year of actual best self. And I thought if I was going to be my actual best self, what is every habit that I would embody? And I wouldn't drink alcohol, I wouldn't drink caffeine, I wouldn't bite my nails. When I was nervous, I would get out of bed at this time. I would work out for 20 minutes every morning. I had like 15 of these things, and I decided to start all of them at one time, of course, Hijeer, and go, okay, like, can I just reinvent my whole life and be my actual best self of which lasted about 16 weeks. Which I was actually quite impressed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was quite impressed. But everything that I'd read said, you know, habits take 28 days or 30 days or something like that, which did not ring true for me with different things like that. And all the research that you have done, is it best? And do we get momentum from, like, stacking and going, okay, we've done one thing and gives us the confidence to do the next thing and one at a time? Or is it like white knuckle it through it and be who you want to be? Like, where did I go wrong there? And what can people learn from my failed experiment?

Oh, there's so much juicy things to talk about here. Firstly, 16 weeks is amazing. You should be so, so proud of yourself. I think the track record is only like two weeks with kind of a list that big of things to do. Well, firstly, our brain is only capable of making up to three changes at one time. Anything more than that starts to feel like a chore. It's quite overwhelming. And when life does life and throws something at us, those things start to fall away. The. The habits that we're trying to create fall away. The research shows that actually just trying to change one thing at a time is much more effective than trying to change multiple things. And then once that starts to feel more automatic, like a more natural part of your routine, then add another one and continue that pattern. You know, you say, where Did I go wrong? And I'm like, did you go wrong weeks? That's amazing.

Yeah, but it didn't stick. See, now I go. So my last plan was to go, okay, I'm going to do one every 12 weeks because I thought that would be more achievable. So I stopped drinking alcohol in December of 2022 and then that was going to be 12 weeks and then stop drinking caffeine. It took me a year later to stop drinking caffeine. So I've, I've maintained it. Now it's been what, five months, six months of no caffeine in a year and a half of, of no alcohol. Except I have a beautiful cocktail when I go out to dinner with friends. That's my, that's my thing. But that took me way longer than I thought. But now I feel like, because I staggered it, it's like it's just part of my day now. And I can't ever imagine a couple of years ago not waking up and having a beautiful coffee.

Like it's so, yeah, I mean it takes people say 21 days or 28 days. There's absolutely no research at all. No, unfortunately. But think about it, Tina, like if something took three or four weeks to achieve, I feel like we would all be perfect being.

We would be. Yeah, we can stick anything for that time.

Yeah, anything for that time. But actually the harder the habit is that you're trying to change and the more ingrained it is in your life. And you know, there's, there's a whole bunch of factors but the, the basically it can take anywhere up to a year to change a habit. It can take two weeks for really easy habits. So some of the studies show things like teaching someone to wash their hands at a specific time will take like two weeks for them to automate that. Whereas getting someone to go to the gym several times a week took about seven months in this study. Because the act of going to the gym, there's a lot more sequences in that than just the same with having a glass of water with Breakfast took like three weeks to develop compared to doing 50 push ups, which took about a year. Because that's a really complex thing to automate.

Yeah, interesting.

So simple habits are going to develop much quicker than those more complex ones. Also the other factor here is how badly you want it. The stronger our intention for change, the quicker that change will happen. It's like, I want this. And so you become more consistent, you persevere through hard times, you're more focused on it, you're more mindful about it and you got to want it quite badly.

Yeah.

And is that what keeps you sticking through when you go like, is it true that we run out of, with all the decisions that we're making, decision fatigue at the end of the day and we actually run out of willpower and discipline. Is that true?

Yeah, it is. There's actually a concept in psychology called ego depletion. And ego depletion is essentially a term that we give for when our willpower or self control runs out. And it does run out. And the things that deplete it, making decisions, being hungry. So hangry is like totally a thing. Being stressed, like with time pressures, like if you've got time pressure or you're rushed, things like driving through traffic, uncomfortable conversations, feeling any sort of negative emotion, sleep deprivation.

I mean taking what normal life is getting in the way of us having great habits.

Literally. Like think of like getting up, deciding what to wear in the morning, driving through traffic, getting the kids ready. Then you get to work to a pile of emails. You're pretty depleted. Already had like your breakfast yet. So yes, our, our willpower runs out during the day. The things that we can do to replenish it, things like rest, taking periodic breaks throughout the day, like 10 minutes in every hour, meditation, a really good night's sleep, having some carbohydrates, so that is really helpful. And feeling positive emotions like gratitude and love and joy. Those things help to replenish our self control which is why at the end of the day we might find it harder to have self control than it is in the earlier parts of the day.

So is there any hacks that you have? If I use something simple like the example you gave before of the doing the 50 push ups and you're like I'm tired, I don't want to. And we're behaving like a petulant toddler and no, but it is important and we do want all of things that come with it. What are the hacks you have to sticking the habit when you're like on the cusp of giving it up.

Yeah, I think make it really easy for yourself to just start whether that's like, you know, if it's working out, for example, like have all your stuff out and ready and book into a gym class so that you can't just like drop out of it. Or if it's sending that one more email, like say to yourself, if I send this email then I can watch TV for an hour, like give yourself those instant rewards. I think is really helpful. Or stacking things with things that you enjoy. So I was working with someone recently who wanted to do some more exercise, and I was like, all right. When you're on the treadmill or bike or whatever it is, that's when you can watch, like, the. The most guilty pleasure show that you have. And they're like, yes, I want to catch up on all these shows. And so they got to do that and did it much more willingly because they got to stack it with something else. It's called reward bundling, like attaching something you want to do with the thing that you kind of don't really want to do. I love that. Remember why you started. Why is this important for you? Remind yourself change is hard, that the more you do it, the more habitual it'll be, and then the easier it'll be. So when you do it today, you're going to make it easier for yourself tomorrow and easier again the following day and the day after that. Like you said with your coffee, like you never thought you couldn't do it. And first few days, I'm sure, would have been a challenge.

Yeah.

But now it's much easier for you.

Yeah.

Oh. Especially with coffee was more like sudden. And then it got really easy. Whereas alcohol took me a longer time to habitually get out of going, you know, hard day, glass of wine, great day, celebrate with a glass of wine. Like all of the different things, like the amount of time I didn't realize how many things I had associated with it. So that was probably much harder in getting out of that habit of doing it. But is that like. Is the.

No.

Is it like a no muscle that when you say no more often, it does get easier in doing that over time?

Yeah, it's more that the less you do something, the less habitual it becomes. And actually then the less reward your brain gets from it. So before, when you'd have a glass of wine, like, you feel good and you. Not only are you getting hit of dopamine, you're doing something that's normal for you. And remember, our brain really likes the familiarity of and the comfort of that normality.

Yeah.

The. The more you say no, the more no becomes a bit more of the normal. And then eventually no is your default. Yeah, it's more like the practice of it makes it permanent.

Yeah.

Is there a habit that you talk to people about most often that you think this is one that I know would change the game for a lot of people, but so many people struggle with it.

The. The most reported unwanted Habit is phone scrolling.

When I was.

Yeah, most people say that and every age group say that. It's the thing that they struggle with the most. But I think the habit that would impact people the most is getting a better night's sleep. Sleep is everything.

Yes.

A foundation of everything. And I think we're going to bed too late because we're scrolling and we're snoozing because we're tired from the night before because those are the other two most unwanted habits is snoozing our alarm and going to bed too late.

Sleep is like my superpower. I wear an aura ring and I have an eight sleep. Have you seen the eight sleep?

Yeah. Yeah.

Which has like changed my sleep game completely. I just think I sacrifice everything for sleep. I had dinner with a bunch of girlfriends last weekend and I made the dinner at 6pm and everyone was laughing at me going, it's like a nana time and I'm good. That's because I need to be back and in bed by nine.

Yes. I'm exactly the same. Oh my gosh, I love this.

Yeah. When we ran our conference, like all of the dinners were early so we finished. The latest one was at 10pm Because I'm going, I personally need to go to bed. You can party on if you want to, but nothing is worth like the lack of sleep in my mind.

Yeah.

People come over for dinner, they know they're getting kicked out by 8:30. Like I literally say to them, come for dinner but you have to leave by 8:30 because.

Yeah.

It's actually the reason why I don't really drink a lot of alcohol now as well is because it impacts my sleep so much. So I really, really love to have a glass of wine after a big day. The reason I don't is because it impacts my sleep and I value sleep more than I value wine.

Yes. Yeah.

That was the same with me. My aura ring was telling me all of the different. I'm a data girl. So all of the different stats. And then I was measuring how different things impacted and I was going, oh yeah, this is not good. Yeah, totally. What besides sleep, what is the. Do you have a daily habit that you think has totally changed everything for you that you've adopted since you've gone into habit research?

Yes. It's like lots of little things rather than like one big thing.

Are you like an actual best self person with your habits?

Some days, yes. She's like, yeah, time of month. Depends how busy I am. Depends how motivated. Sometimes I'm just like, I'm killing it at life. Like, this is awesome. And other days I'm like, oh, I'm just gonna watch reruns of Pharma. Once a wife. Yeah. The more I learn about the brain, the, you know, the more it's shaped my behavior in my day. And actually I find the less it becomes this conventional 9 to 5 type of workday. And I'm accepting that more and more and actually really loving it. But yeah, I find that the days I do some exercise, exercise, I focus so much better and I'm just like a way happier me. So say I'm doing a keynote presentation or I'm doing a webinar or even a podcast. I will make sure that I do some exercise in the morning so that I can bring my best self to those days. And I do. Even if I'm not like, presenting.

Yeah.

But on those days I definitely particularly do it. I'm also much better now at taking rests, like breaks throughout the day. It's not natural for me. Like, when I was writing my book, I was just like, I wanted to sit and write for eight hours a day.

Yeah.

But then I find the next day I was a vegetable. I had nothing. And the more I learned about the brain again, the more I realized that actually those periodic breaks fuel creativity. They give us more energy. I'm going to be more productive, even though I don't want to walk away from my computer. So I'm really good at doing those things now and, and finishing work, like not just before bed because that impacts my sleep. So I have a cutoff point. I won't ever work after like 4:30pm as soon as I finish, I have a ritual of taking my dog to the dog park. So we're in nature and I'm walking. And that marks the end of my work day. And after that, you won't be able to contact me.

Yeah, that's fantastic.

Little nuance. Things that just make the flow of my day a lot more productive and better.

Yeah, it's something I've started doing the every. Every hour, having the 10 to 15 minutes off. And I've got my meditation station just over at the side and I've put a treadmill in to just walk for like 10 minutes only. But I've really battled with the difference between going the. The benefits of taking pause and. And you know, I'm not as tired by the end of the day. But then you kind of balance that with the loss of focus and going I. Loss of flow when you're halfway through something and the Alarm will go off and I'm like, what already? It just started. And because my thing is like, I could, I could never look up. I could just. Just keep going all day. And so I constantly battle with those two things and going. Should I stay in flow? Should I take a break? Yeah, it's hard.

I know what you mean. I definitely cheat through that where I. I don't break so much in the first half of the day, but then like after lunch, then I'm much better at breaking because I find my focus times in the morning, like, don't break it. Seriously. I work from home and my. When my husband comes in to say anything, like I'm going out to the shops or whatever, I'm like, I did not need to know that. Text me because I will check my phone when I want to. Don't disrupt my flow.

Exactly.

I'm really sacred about the. Yeah, the flow. I think. I don't know. I personally think if you're in flow, keep going because it takes 20 minutes to get back into flow once you're disrupted out of it.

Yeah.

What is the habit that you have? That. That is the one you want to break the most like that you do, but you kind of grumble, bum your way to it.

Oh, this is a good one. I more have habits like I want to do more rather. Oh yeah. Look, I'm not very good at like posting on my social media and I know it's. It sounds such. Such a business issue and it is.

I'm sure a lot of people can relate.

Yeah. I could go forever and never check my socials. I don't enjoy scrolling. I don't like being on there and I. I'm so tentative to say that because I also want to engage with my followers and I really like when I'm engaging. I think just the act of it sometimes feels overwhelming.

Yeah.

And feels like.

And it's a very weird, unnatural thing to do as well.

Yeah, I know. And it's also just. We're talking about myself that much. I mean, why do you. Why do people care about that? I don't know. I think that's something like I'm very hot and cold with it. I'll be really good for like a week and I'll post every day and then I'll go MIA for two weeks. I'm like, gah. I really got to grind my way into getting back into it.

Yeah.

Is that kind of.

Yeah, it does. Yeah.

Yeah.

Because I'm always interested in like what people find easy and what people find Hard, because it's so different for everybody. My habit for the day, because Instagram stories are where so much of my conversations and engagement comes into it. And so my habit was as soon as I walk into my office in the morning, before I do anything, 60 seconds is just an Instagram story of what I'm doing in the day. And that's it. Then it's done. Then that's the data.

That's it.

You can use that one, Gina.

Yeah, I will. I will do something like that. Thank you. Oh, my gosh, I love this.

It's like I needed that tweak. Otherwise, throughout the day, I go, oh, what have I got to say? I don't know if I've got anything. Like, it was just like, when I walk in, you just 60 seconds, hold the phone up, say my thing, and then I'm done.

Yeah.

Oh, I like that. Okay. Yeah.

Okay.

Can you.

Because so much, and you mentioned this in the beginning, that so much of our habits is actually what's going on mentally behind the scenes and our thoughts and beliefs and those behavior patterns that we have. Is it possible to rewire your brain to overcome that conditioning and trauma from your past?

Absolutely. Our brains. We underestimate our brains so much. Our brains are designed to rewire, to reshape, to recreate themselves. Our brains are constantly creating new neural connections, and they're getting rid of old, unused ones. And I can certainly, you know, testify to the power of reshaping or reframing thoughts around trauma. You know, I went through a really traumatic event a few years ago where I couldn't even leave my own house. Like, I developed agoraphobia, and I was terrified of everything. And how did that come up then?

Was that Covid related?

No, it was actually my ex husband, I discovered, was cheating on me, and he was going to brothels and hiring escorts. And the way I found out was, you know, I was in the kitchen baking, and I flipped his computer open to check a recipe, and his phone was attached to his computer, and he was out at the shops, and this text message exchange came through between him and a prostitute that he was just about to. How horrifying. It was awful. And, you know, she was sending photos, and then I discovered hundreds more. And why it was particularly so traumatic is because this man I was with was, you know, his nickname was the Saint. He was just the most beautiful, kind, gentle, vanilla human being. Like, never in my life. I was literally like, no, he would not be capable of even knowing where to go. But there's this Entire world. That is a whole other world in his life. And I didn't know about it. So I was like, if I'm so wrong about him, what else am I so wrong about? So my mind, like, cracked. Is the sky even blue? Are these people who claim to be my parents, even my parents? Should we even brush our teeth every day? I don't know. I don't know anything anymore. And so this fear response took over me, and everything that reminded me of him triggered my trauma. Like, oh, my God, the smell of, like, massage oil, the. His ringtone, the smell of coffee, sheridan sheets, because that's what we slept on. Black cars. Just everything triggered me. So I couldn't leave my house. And I had to rewire my belief systems, my trauma triggers. I. I had to. Otherwise I couldn't survive in the world. And, gosh, it was a journey.

Yeah.

Now I'm remarried. Not to the same guy. I'm like, remarry. You know, there's. There's so much space for trust and vulnerability in my relationship that I didn't ever, ever think that I could get to. And it's only rewiring those deep belief systems that I could achieve that.

So when you're in that part, when you're in, you know, a pretty bad way, what did you start with to rebuild?

I started with Gina. I think today it's probably a good idea that you brush your teeth. Just do that, and that's all you need to do. And I did just that. And then I was in bed for the rest of the day. And then the next day I was like, okay, today, brush your teeth again and have a shower. And that's all you need to do today. And that's what I do. It was baby steps with leaving my house. It was just take one step outside the front door and just sit with that discomfort for a minute and come back inside. And that's what I did. And it took me like a week to get out to my letterbox. But after that, I got curious about what was down the road and around the corner. And I was able to just really gradually experience the world again and find that I was safe and it was okay.

Yeah.

And with you, like, obviously both of us are surrounded by high achieving women a lot of our lives, and you were a very high achieving woman at that stage already. Were you more patient with yourself because you knew the data in there, or were you hard on yourself because you were thinking, you know, I shouldn't be in this position, or a lot of women that I talk to that get big life curveballs thrown at them and get into those situations. They're so hard on themselves. And so that can be really hard to overcome. Did you go through that or you. You knew what was going on intellectually?

Well, both. You know, I think I oscillated between those two things. It's the ego in me that wants to achieve everything now and the logic in me that's like, your brain is different. You need to stop. But also the circumstance of really not feeling like I had the capacity to do more than I was doing.

Yeah.

The first time I went back to the gym, it was a couple of months later and I was so much weaker. I was so deconditioned and I was so down on myself about it. And then I was like, okay, I need self compassion here, otherwise I'm not going to be able to achieve anything. I couldn't focus. I couldn't even drive my car for a long time. I couldn't even go to the grocery store. And I had to celebrate all the little wins to keep myself going. But yes, it sucked. And I was like, why can't I be the person I was yesterday before? And I had to keep reminding myself I didn't carry a trauma yesterday. This was a different version of me. And I have to build my way up again. Yeah. So I oscillated. You know what? I still struggle. There are still times like, you know, my husband now, like, drop his phone quickly if I walk through the room and my mind is like, oh, yeah.

The trust issues would be like, you've done so well to go, like a few years later you're remarried. I'm like, that's some trust building you've done there.

Yeah. Oh yeah, we worked super hard at it. Yeah. It didn't come naturally. But my, my fear response is, what's he looking at? And I, you know, I have to work through that. And look, most of the time he's looking at like stocks and, or something like that. But I'll say to him the story that I. And we work through that and he, he's really good at reassuring me. But I get annoyed at myself for still having those responses. I'm like, it, it pisses me off, you know, that the old Gina who had this innocent vulnerability, you know, I was just so innocent and like, not exposed to some of the darkness in the world.

Yeah.

I miss that version of me.

Yeah.

But at the same time, I think it's beautiful to have like, be in touch with that intuition. And. Yeah. You know, I am A different version of me, but I am so much stronger and I'm so much happier and, and it's okay. Like, some of the parts I miss are gone, but there are other parts that would never be there had I not been through that totally.

I love that. And I love the way that you talk to yourself with that as well. So to maintain that self compassion, because obviously you've had to do that a lot through coming through what you've gone through, but also just with how you live your daily life and also just getting a PhD as well. Like, even that is ginormous in terms of what you can bite off, like with self compassion and having that. Is there certain things that you tell yourself that can be helpful to other people to know or is certain habits that you have to maintain that level of self compassion, passion?

You know, I think the more I talk to people about behavior and the things that they want to change in their life, the more I realize how similar we all are and that we all share such a real human experience. And, you know, I've run this particular survey with thousands of Australians from all walks of life, and they all report the same unwanted habits. Everybody. And so I, I come back to that of, you know, I will always strive for perfection. It's in my nature to do that. But I'm doing okay. I think that's what I constantly say to myself, gina, you're doing okay. It's, it's okay if, if you need to, like, be on the couch and watch Farmer Wants a Life all day, that's okay because yesterday you freaking killed it. So it's okay. And I think bouncing it off other people has been really helpful for, for me as well, like my, my best friends or my husband to say, like, I'm getting these thoughts and sometimes it's really validating to, you know, hear what someone else thinks. And sometimes they slap me across the face, you know, verbally, and be like, are you kidding? Like, do you realize how much you got done this week? Like, chill out. It's all right.

Yeah.

So I think, yeah, those conversations are really helpful for me.

Yeah, I love that. So with everyone wanting to, you know, improve and be the best version of themselves, you have a free habits course going on. How else can people work with you? And how are you engaging with people to share this now?

So I've written a book called the Habit Revolution. It's available on paperback, Audible, and Kindle, so grab that. It's got so much of the juicy, like, how tos. It's a real like guide it, hand holds you through it. I also run habit change courses. I've got two different courses. There's one for everyday people wanting to understand a bit more about their own habits and really make meaningful changes. I've also got a course called the Habit Practitioner course which is for anyone who's already a coach or a manager who's or works with other people and they're interested in becoming a certified habit coach. So that is also available online and.

Then I'll link to all of that as well.

Yeah, well, thank you. I know I bagged out social media before, but jump on my Instagram. I am on there. I was just having a lull week.

Thing is, I think everybody has a love, not a love hate relationship with it, but it's a, it's such a beautiful way to connect with people. I have made great friends that I met on Instagram which I would never have thought that that was possible but like real life quality friends and keep connected with everyone. But it's also can get real weird on there and then, you know, it's very salesy and, and can be manipulative and it's filled with grossness and, and all the darkness of the world that it's. It's very. Yeah, I have very mixed feelings about social media. It. I think everybody does.

Yeah, yeah. It's true. And I think as well from a habit perspective because it is the number one reported unwanted habit. Sometimes I feel that I'm feeding the problem and I'm not because if I wasn't on there, you know, they'd still be scrolling. It's not like they're on there for me. Yeah. But I still can't get behind the idea sometimes that like I'm contributing to this.

I'm trying. Yeah.

I want engagement. I want people to watch the. My full video. I want, you know, they're watching my stories but I'm now contributing to the thing they're telling me they want to do less of.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That, that plays around in my head as well.

Yeah, you just have a, like in your 15 minutes of allocated time today, make sure I am one minute of those.

And then. And that's it. You know, Tina, I come back to the idea of scrolling is not the issue. Our phones are not the problem. It's too much of that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah problem.

And you know, I can recalibrate my thoughts that way. But yeah, there's a very long response to how people can get it.

Yeah, I love it. I love the long responses. It's Amazing. So I will link to all of the things and all of your things. You're amazing. Thank you so much for sharing. One question I will finish on is, what is the one habit that you are not doing at the moment that is in your future that you want to put in? Do you have one?

Oh, my gosh. These questions. Okay, I want to add to my future. Or.

Or stop. That is a negative one.

This is very personal. But I think for me, it's the moment I think someone might be criticizing me. I will hear that over all the wonderful things that people might be saying. Like, I think my book has a review of 4.9, and I was like, who is that person of five?

Yes. Yes.

That is something I want to break because when I see other people doing that, I'm like, are you out of your mind? Like, 4.9 is solid, but I don't necessarily adopt that either. So. And you know, I teach it at university and the same, like, we get feedback from students and I'm winning teaching awards and. But I'm also focusing on the one piece of negative feedback that someone says. Yeah, and I know we carry a negative bias. You know, our brains are wired to do that, but I really want to focus less on that. I want it to impact me less. I want to not notice it. I think that is what I want to work on.

I 100% agree. I was. I used to, like, guest coach in somebody's program, and out of all their coaches, I was the top ranked person that they had always got. Great one. And then one day, this dude gave me like a 3 out of 10 and he said that he had a negative, visceral response to my voice and my laugh. And he was. Anyway, I. This was years ago. And see, I can still tell you what he said, like, so bad. I can't tell you anything positive that anybody said. I didn't remember that, but. So why do our brains do that? The negative bias?

I think it's a protective mechanism. I'm not very protective.

It's just nasty.

Yeah, it's nasty. And I think even if our brains default to that, we should break it down.

No, no blocking. I've got a friend of mine who has no email now because she's. She's quite high up in the online course industry. And so she gets a lot of fan mail and a lot of the opposite of that. She's like, I don't read either of it. I can't take the fan or the negative. There's no positive or negative. I just do my thing, and it's just blinkers on.

I love that. Yeah. Go, girl. And I. I love. I love the idea of, like, closing out the noise, because I think the more we close out the noise, the more we can just focus on doing what we do and being really good at that and not worrying about go hard or go home or what Sally next door is doing. It's like, who cares? Just like, do you? Yeah, that's cool.

The great message to finish on. Gina, thank you so much for sharing with us. You're fabulous.

Thank you. Thanks for having me. Great to chat with you.