262: From Stage Fright to Spotlight with Karyn McRae & Helen Lynch

Foreign.

And Helen, welcome to her Empire Builder show.

Thank you, Tina. We're so excited to be here. Always fun chatting to you.

So I mean, we've been chatting for like two decades now. We met for the first time in. It was at Rendezvous.

Right. Gosh, that's a long time.

I met that, I met you before that because we had Corbin's third birthday party at the toy store where we built volcanoes.

Yes, we did.

I forgot about that.

So that is. So that would have been. Yeah. About how old is he now?

23. So 20 years.

Old.

And I love this because, I mean, I've seen you go through so many different business iterations. You've seen me go through so many different business iterations. And it's been fun getting to grow up together. But we were talking a little bit about this before we hit record. I feel like, like you've, you've grown your business at a really steady pace over the last. What is it? You've been 25 years in business?

Oh, easily. Yes.

Yeah. So over that stage. But the last like three, I want to say you have like gone on a massive trajectory. So give us a little bit of an overview first of how you started working together. Because I do think in terms of partnerships, there's many examples of good partnerships that make it through the ages. I mean, first of all, the percentage of businesses that last three years is so slim. The percentages of partnerships that last three years is nearly non existent. And you've been going nearly three decades.

We have, yeah.

So tell everybody how that first came about.

You can tell the story.

Karen's favorite story is our love at first sight. Yeah. So we studied together. We met studying interior design and our very first day there, Karen, who's always on time, turned up late and we were in like a little demountable classroom thing and I think I was in the back corner somewhere and I saw it come in and trying to find a seat and I've just, without really thinking too much of it, said, oh, over here there's a seat. So she came over and that's it. From then on, we just clicked. And I guess at uni we would do assignments together. If there was any assignments that we had to collaborate, we just, I think clicked. We had similar values, similar ideas and just worked really well together. So by the time we finished our three years full time study, we got to know each other pretty well and thought, okay, well why not make something of it? So that's the beginning.

And did you go straight from uni into business together?

No, not really.

We. We kind of started up our business, which was literally just a business card and that was it. Nothing else.

I miss the days where you started a business and you made a nice fancy business card and you felt like.

You were in business and I was pregnant. I fell pregnant at the end of the day the last year. So Karen went off and worked for a couple of architects and on the odd occasion, like, we'd get together and do little private jobs, projects together. So we've always been working together. There was probably about two years in amongst that when we were both full on with our kids, like babies in the middle of all that, where it kind of fell by the wayside. But it was, it's weird because we'd. At some point Karen had ring me and go, oh, there's this project, whatever. Do you want to like, join me? And I go, yeah, why not? And then it all just picked up again. It's like that. It was like a blink and then we're back to normal. And I think we've kind of carried on that way throughout the. Our children's development and change. You know, you're changing not in lifestyle, but, you know, life changes around family.

And I think that's why we've clicked and we have such good energy between us because we have similar family values. And I think it wouldn't have gone so well if one was, you know, it's not about the family and the children and I'm all career driven. I think that's why it's worked really well because it's. It's always been about family first.

Yeah.

I think that's why you've accelerated a lot in the last few years, is correct.

Kids are.

Yes.

You know, getting independent and turning into adults and you going, okay, I've got this little bit of a void now.

Yeah, very much so. And I think, you know, lots of friends look at us and think why you two should be slowing down. Like you're in your 50s. And I think, who says we have to? Like, we've done the family thing, built the business around family and, you know, gone on that roller coaster journey. And it's just, it's our time now and, and particularly in these last three years. It's definitely our time. Yeah.

Okay, so that's the part I want to talk about because, you know, you, you went pretty slow and steady. And then when I started her empire builder. Oh, when did we start? 2020. And we were supposed to go to Palm Springs together to kick it off. And then Covid Hit started that. And it took you a hot minute to get into the online. You were like, I think we want to do this. But I think it took. Did it take until around 20, 21 before you did your first thing online?

Correct.

And so I want to go there to start off with because it's for a lot of people when they're getting started, especially when they're so established in traditional business, it can be hard to like pivot going.

Yeah.

So good. And we know this part. Should we put time and energy over here that's not going to pay us yet. Not going to, you know, bring us everything yet. Is it going to be worth it in there? So how did you. How did you work out that timing and what made you want to go into the online space?

Definitely it's hard to give up a service based business. As you said, we're good at what we do and it's hard to make that transition across. We're very lucky that we have one another. So I guess it will be. I'll be honest, it would be hard to make that transition on your own. It's the best thing we've done. And I took a real. It was a decision made that, you know, Helen would maintain a lot of the drafting and that I would jump into the online world and. And of course she's definitely, most definitely involved. It's just, it's believing. It's. I guess we were kind of a little bit scared too, to take that leap and really take it on. But it's not just this.

The scary stuff is putting your face out there and doing all that stuff. I mean, we, we can get past that. That's at the end of the day, at the time it seemed really difficult, but once you've done a couple, you go, okay. I don't know what I was worried about, but I think for us that transition was our hardest, hardest part because we just couldn't afford to not bring any money in and to go and focus on online things is it does take a ma. It's like we've always said, it's like a whole other business. It's completely separate and to maintain the projects. And our job is very hands on. We do everything even to outsource. We found it really difficult because our time was then taken up by trying to go through all the processes and all that sort of stuff. But we basically got a leg up during COVID because the business pretty much slowed down and we both made the decision where, okay, this is the perfect opportunity for us to actually Then focus on that side. And that was really the beginning of it. We dabbled in bits and pieces and tried to get it done and it was really difficult. And then once we had that time to focus, it kick started us and then that was it. Yep, we want to do this. So then it was a matter of juggling our hands on bricks and mortar business and the online side of it. And as you know.

But it took a life of its own then.

It did. And there are so many more elements to it than we were even aware of when we first started that perhaps if we had have known, maybe we.

Might have started like. Like what?

Well, all gone. Oh, hang on. This is all too much.

It is overwhelming. I mean, I had a coaching call with someone this morning and I was, I was running through their momentum path. Like everything they've got got to do from like absolute scratch to launching in four months time was their goal. And I went over it just like, okay, we've got to do this, this, this and this. And in my mind it's all very simple. She's like, you could just see the overwhelm like growing on her face. And at the beginning I think because they' concepts and it's something like, like, I know you were, you were really trepidatious of the tech at the start and now like I see you, Karen, just going boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, all over Kajabi, all over everything. Like, no problem. But at the start it's like, okay, well I just want to set up a lead magnet funnel. Like what do I even click? Where do you find? And everything takes so long. But once you've got us and a.

Lot of swearing at the same time.

Swearing and gin.

Yes. But I think you have to look, you know, you know what I've loved about it, it's a learning journey too. I think if you take a step back and it is very overwhelming. There's so many moving parts and you do it so effortlessly because that's your job and that's your world. So for someone who's come from a service based business, I think you have to flip it on its head and say, okay, this is a challenge, but. And it's going to bring some great things. And you never know where it's going to lead because look where it's led us now. It's.

Yeah.

Crazy.

Yeah, okay.

We've always had that, yeah, we've always had that mindset though, where, you know, we're presented with an opportunity and we go, okay, we're not ready for it. We're not whatever, but we don't want to miss it. Let's just agree to it and then figure it out and then completely have this meltdown and go, holy crap, what have we done? But we always make it happen. And I think, too, having the two of us there as a backup and a support system really does help. I think doing that on your own would be extremely.

That's how. That's how we roll. So there would be other people that can take it on. And I think we just have this connection and have been working together for so long that we naturally do things.

And something I see that you do beautifully with each other, too. Like, you never want to let the other person down. So you always push yourself so much and go, I can't let them down. But you both, like, sometimes I'll talk to you individually and you're both worried about the same thing, and I' like, you're totally fine.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, I can't let it down.

Yeah, yeah. We're accountable for one another, I guess, and.

Yeah.

And you don't want to disappoint either. And if. If one of you is thinking, oh, this is not going to work or this is whatever, and you're a bit of a downer, the other one will go like. It's like yin and yang. Yeah. If one's down, the other one will step up. If one's up, you know, it just. It changes. Yeah.

So what was the first online product that you started with?

It's still the same one. It's the. It's now called Renovation Simplified. So it's about preparing for, you know, a new build or a renovation. So it's about to go through another iteration. It was recorded in Covid, so it had that sort of heavy Covid. We were separated.

Yeah.

So it's just about helping homeowner get organized for a builder renovation. And then, as you said before, lots of lead magnets off that, lots of checklists, lots of downloadable. So even diving into that part of the online world and building up our social media has all been progressive throughout these last three years.

And you've experimented a lot with different lead magnets and ways to get yourself out there. Helen, you kind of touched on it a little bit before when you're like, put ourselves into the deep end and figure out how to do it. It was only. I mean, was it a year, two years? I've lost sense of time lately that you got invited to the home show for the first time and you went on that main stage when Was that.

Yeah. Two or three years ago.

This will be the third year.

Okay. So to me, that was like. I remember that moment and everything really changed for you after that. It was. It was almost like you had seen yourself as running this lifestyle business and, and having. Having this thing that you played with on the side in your spare time away from your family. But that was to like, from an outside looking in the first time that you were like, oh, we're actually going to be on this stage. Like, we're actually the people that we've been watching before and we're now those people that are going to be helping other people do that.

And you.

You like, changed your perception of.

Pivoted. Yeah.

To that.

Yeah. I think we were at a home show doing some work for. We were doing some sort of side work for a company in New Zealand and they were running like, we attended the home show as on a stand for them. And. And I won't say who, but we in our sort of break, we watched someone stand up on stage and deliver, you know, some information or whatever, presentation and looked at Karen said, you know, we could do that really easily and we have so much more information to give than what that person had. And then from then on, it was like, okay, we're going to do this.

But you know what? I'm going to digress there. I think that turning moment that you're talking about, Tina, is because before that we started to do weekly lives and we did more social media and I think that gave us the confidence to. Well, we're out every week talking to people on Facebook and Instagram and I think the stage was just that next, next level. I think if we hadn't have done all the things that we've done with you and you gave us the push and like you literally held a camera and filmed us and said, come on.

You was going to say he gun to our head.

Because I felt like may as well have been. At the time, it was the phone with the camera on it. Come on, you two, get on with this. So I think doing all those little incremental steps to that moment in time, we thought, well, yeah, let's do this. We can.

How did it when it came time for that? Because I know that there was a lot of fear around it. Like, it was a really big deal. How did you, like, what did you. Because I know a lot of people will be feeling like this. What did you do to actually deal with the fear of stepping onto that main stage that you've been watching for such A long time.

Yeah. Well, firstly, that your. Your Empire Builders team, I'm going to call it, because as far as I'm concerned, every member of her Empire Builder is your team, essentially. And there are some very, very talented women in there that are from all walks of life, from different backgrounds, have different skill sets. And the, the great thing was, is, okay, we've signed up for this. We're absolutely shitting ourselves. We know we're going to do it and we know it's going to be okay. Can, you know, what do we need to do? And then out of the woodwork come all these beautiful women saying, right, you need to. Here's a tip. Here's another tip. Why don't you do this? This is what I do. This is how I found. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Totally understand your fear. I was going through the same thing. So it was support coming from a. I totally empathize with you because I'm terrified myself. To confident public speakers that would say, okay, here are the areas that you could potentially fall down. Here's how to avoid it.

But you know what? I also think it was the feedback and the comments we got was, you two are naturals, you'll be good at this. And, and just them saying it over and over again in different messages. You two are going to be great on stage. So that sort of started to, you know, sink in and reflecting on that, that the girls, the, you know, as you said, we call them the team. They're like our cheese squad, which steering us on and saying, you two will be fine.

The encouragement, the encouragement, the support, the advice, the empathy, all. All comes together and you've created this amazing group of women that we know that you, you carefully pick for a reason. And we're grateful that you do because it benefits everybody that's in that group. There's no room for someone to be a negative Nancy. There's no room for someone to put anyone down. And it's a really lovely group to be in and you can be yourself, authentic self, without judgment. And we're our worst enemies when it comes to being judgy of ourselves and putting ourselves down. So it's nice to have somebody else backing you up at the same time. But it was the support, the support.

Of the group, I think that little seeds planted. Come on, girls, you can do this. You can do this. But just we stepped out there, we were still very, very nervous, and it just became easier and easier. I think the weekend that we did, we obviously must have done a Great. You know, a good. A good job. Because the following.

Going back to the third year in a row.

Yeah. But the weekend they asked us to fill three spots over three days by so nine slots of talking. I think the second day we just got up and went, this is easy. We've done so well.

We didn't have time to think about it, so we just did it.

Yeah.

And then it also opened up a lot of.

And you just said that you, you know, you're your own worst enemy in terms of judgment, but that obviously proved something to you, that you were far more capable than what you'd let yourself believe beforehand because you changed the trajectory of where you were going after that. And I think that came out in both the online, but also in your service space too, and the work you're doing and the partnerships that you've got and all of that. So can talk a little bit about the opportunities that have kind of blossomed in those last few years, because you are the quintessential on a roll right now.

Yeah, we are.

The universe has got us and it's carrying us through at the moment on stage led us to forming some great collaborations with key partners and suppliers in our industry. So the next thing that we developed from being on stage was our masterclasses. So we deliver live in person events. We've been to Mudgee, we've been to Thoreau, we've been going up to the Central Coast. We've delivered them in all sorts of locations. And that approaching people to come on board and support us through that has. And the credibility from speaking on stage, people look at us, we don't have a huge following, but I think, you know, seeing what we do, how we're out and about and doing different things has led people to, you know, come along and support us along the journey too. So now we're delivering master classes in person events and in support with, you know, the supplies, which has been fantastic, which is also leading to a very big event that's coming up, as well.

As really good contacts, too, in our industry that are, like, out there and well known, doing what we are like that recognize we're on a similar path to. To them. And they've kind of acted as our mentor and sort of said, you know, you guys have got what it takes. I see you up on stage, your banter is great, blah, blah, blah. And I don't say that about everybody, which gives you a little bit more confidence. Well, a lot more. And these are. This is my journey and this is how I've gone and these are the things that I've done. So I didn't just come up here and become this well known person overnight. I've had to go through all these stages. And then that mentoring again, I think has helped us along our way because we see them like you said earlier, Tina, where you, you know, we're now becoming the people that we go, oh, they're up there and I'm here. What it's made us realize is that we're all the same. We're essentially human beings doing something. You have a talent, or not even a talent, if there's something that you really want to do, you can actually go, go out and do it. You've just got to do all the groundwork to get there and have the right contacts and meet the right people.

In the right place at the right time.

Put yourself out there and not, you know, not be frightened to take, to take risks, I guess. So it's like one thing leads to another, leads to another, leads to another. And, and yeah, I don't know if.

That is, and that is, that's a really good point that I want everybody listening to be able to take. Because a question I get often is like, what's the one marketing thing that you could do that makes the biggest difference? And I think what you have done so well is it's everything that's combined together that has all fed off each other. And it's always, you know, I had someone the other day going, I'm posting on social media every day, but it's not getting the traction that I wanted it to have. But it's like, yeah, but where else are you doing? Like, how are you feeding that into third party media and live events and all of the different things that we do? And that is what I think you really nailed in the last few years is going, you're, you're actually feet on the ground, you're talking to humans in workshops of 20 people, which a lot of people with online businesses think, oh, I won't go and actually meet people. But it's that, that then gets word of mouth going, that then shares on social media, that then introduces you to other people, which then feeds it in a bigger way. And you get like both that micro and macro going. Have you like, can you explain a little bit of how you've worked out your marketing strategy and how it's all fed into each other or have you go like to the next thing, to the next thing, to the next thing and just seeing where it takes you.

I'll Let Karen answer the marketing strategy side of things, but with the stepping stone thing, I'll have to say, right at the beginning, when it was like, you need to do this, you need to do that, you need to do all the things, we were in a position with our business where we couldn't do all the things. And we were initially feeling like, okay, but I don't think that's going to work for our business because our. One, we need to get known for people to pay any attention to us. And two, like, we always had an excuse. And I'm not saying we were using them as an excuse so much. It was we literally. Yes, this is working brilliantly for this person in the group. It's not working for us. Is that because our situation is different, or is it because we're missing something? So we would go back, look at what we had to do, and go, okay, well, yes, we should be having a podcast. Yes, we should be public speaking. Yes, we should be doing all these things. We can't physically possibly do them all at once now. So we would go, okay, what's the next thing? So we step by step. So we started off doing the lines, then we started off. I don't know what were the other. We'd have these weekly. I guess it was like a podcast.

Interviews.

Yes, Interviews are like three on, you know, social media. That we did, which was kind of like a podcast, but without the commitment and the scaryness of it all. So we did that. Then we. We just kind of went step by step and at one stage, so there's probably a couple of years there where we were sort of encouraged to put out a podcast and we'd be like, we just don't have the capacity or the headspace to do that. Let's park that. We know we need to do it. Let's park it, and we'll do it in a year or two. And then we pick that up. So it's like you said, for us, it's gradual. For other people, they can just go, right, I'm in. All in. Yeah, the end of the day, you've got to do it all.

Want to ask on that? Because I think it's a brilliant way to do it because you're not. You're not overwhelming yourself. You've got realistic time expectations. But there's also frustration that comes with that because everything happening and you're like, I just want to do it. And you're almost like a horse with a bit in its mouth, not being able to do everything at once. How did you deal with the frustration and the feeling? Because obviously it's all paid off and you do it doing exceptionally well now. And you can always look at it from the long game when you're at the end and go, it was all worth it. But when you're in it, it feels like people are going faster than you and that you should be doing this and you're not doing that. How did you deal with that from a psychological point of view to run your own race?

I think we, I'm going to put it back to her empire builder. It's the 90 day planning and then looking at the overall year as well. And as Helen said, we couldn't physically do everything because we're still doing the service based side of things. And it was picking which ones and looking strategically them that we were thinking, okay, we've done the lives. Okay, we can speak on stage now. From speaking on stage, the master classes came from that. And then, you know, well, we should have a podcast. As soon as the podcast came out, it was so psychologically dealing with it was just little bite size chunks of good handle at the time. And just looking at the year as a whole. Love working with you and saying, okay, right. Well, that was the year of the podcast. The podcast led to, you know, international guests and things like that. So having the podcast, speaking on stage and then now that's going to lead to a television opportunity. So but doing, you know, back to.

Psychological, you can't just gloss over that too, like. And then it led to a television opportunity. We have to talk about that.

I think that's why I stopped in.

My tracks then and lost my train of thought. I was like, oh gosh, I think.

Yeah, yeah, we are, we're going to be on tv. Okay, okay, we're gonna go straight into there because I don't want to leave people hanging. So you're going to be on TV next year.

Tv? Yes.

And this, this kind of happened. The way a lot of things have happened is you've put yourself into these positions because you put yourself out there, you've built your profile, you've said yes to things and then they've led to the next step along them. But even with this, it's like every time you just push yourself out of your comfort zone because now you're like, yeah, this is what we're doing. It's working really well. Like, we've got it all set up. But I remember when the idea first came across the desk and both were like, oh, I don't know. Helen was like, hell no. Oh, maybe, but I don't think so. So talk, talk to us about how that came about and how you make the decision of what you say yes to and what you go all in on, because I think that's really helpful for people as well.

It was a no at first because it looked very, very overwhelming. And the thought of being on television is just beyond just being on social media or on your podcast or on stage. It's like a national network we're going to be on.

If you don't think about it though, it's exactly the same as being it easier than being on stage because people.

Aren'T staring at you.

Well, that's true. That's true. Very true. So we parked it. It's only happened in the last month and we parked it for two weeks and we spoke about it and said it's all too much. There's just with everything else going on and it's a whole other animal in itself. Then sat back, had chats with a few like, to be honest, people that we now partner with who are from big, big companies. They were you girls. This is a golden opportunity. You share. You just take it on and say yes. So it just flipped in two weeks. That was a no to a yes and.

And backup with our suppliers is, has been a huge thing because, I don't know, it gives you a little bit more confidence. The fact that they're investing in you kind of makes you think, oh, okay.

And it's, it's just, we would be silly to say no because as you said, it's like increments. It's the next level. And from a marketing perspective, we wouldn't have been asked if we're not capable have looked at us, I'm sure. But in terms of next level for the business, it would have been silly to say no because the opportunities from this are just going to be incredible. And it feels good. At first it was very overwhelming and scary, but now it sits really well with both of us.

And so you're coming out on Channel nine next year.

Channel nine next year. Probably life around this time next year.

Amazing. And then you'll have all that of, of like so many online course sales out of that and so many downloads of your podcast.

Yeah, yeah.

Channeling it all back to that.

So well, that's, that's why now. It initially started off with Karen saying, okay, let's put a YouTube series together of this renovation particular because we just, we were looking for ways to get traction for our online course. The People that had done it had said this is brilliant, this is really helpful or whatever. But trying to get people to buy something that's not so sexy that they need is really, really difficult, especially if you don't have the name or the credibility that's out there. So then we thought we'd put together this YouTube video of the series of renovation, the renovation, what's involved. So people are looking at it, immersing in it. We can talk about it and get them, you know, interested and, and understand what they have to go through. Then from that we spoke to somebody in the industry that's been there, done that to a certain degree and had lunch with them and went through and got seeked. We actually actively went out to get advice and say, okay, we know you've done this, can you give us some tips? Can you help us? How are we going to do this? Which was brilliant. And then from that it just, it's just like everything lined up. And then we had this opportunity to actually go onto TV and, and the first thing I thought was yes, we can let the tv, the network do it and we don't have to do these YouTube videos and do it ourselves. God, because that's a lot of work, as you would know. But now we're doing both. So of course we're doing all be worth it. So we now thought, well, let's align the YouTube videos with the course and combine the two because I think it needs to be more visual than somebody a talking head.

So amazing. So amazing. My next question, I ask every member that comes on but I'm not going to get you to answer it because you know, you guys are just so wonderful. You've seen it in it's what do you love most about her empire builder? But you've just seen it all the.

Way through, which gives me love. Hot eyes.

So you don't have to answer that one because you've already said the community and the support, all of those things which I mean I think that and even you saying with your suppliers like there was. I can't remember who wrote it, Lois. Someone wrote a book called Nice Girls don't get the Corner Office. And I remember reading it when I started franchising and I thought I was too nice and I couldn't be successful in business because I was just like this, this nice people pleasing person. And what I love about your story is all of your niceness has come back to help you. And so much of what I see happen inside her empire builder so often is the people that Help other people. Every time they need help, there's so many people there to pick them up and lift them up and give it. And it's just like this, this roundabout world where everyone tries to give each other a leg up constantly. And it is definitely my favorite thing about it. But it has also been really nice to see the rewriting of this rhetoric that we were raised with in that you've got to be a bit of a ball breaker, which I think for women in their 60s and 70s now, that was probably true, but it's no longer true for us.

Coming through.

Like, you can be a nice girl and get everything that you deserve to get. And it all comes about, which is, you know, it's a testament to you in that you got this opportunity for the TV going, oh, can we actually ask companies to sponsor us and do all this? And they're like, you've got it. Like, you're amazing. We want to support you and give you all of that.

Yeah.

And I'm gonna actually say it's a testament to you too, because we just.

Do a love fest.

Three of us are in love. But honestly, Tina, the. The trajectory that you've taken us on and the fun times, the travel, but the learnings, the online has just, it's all. It all comes back to you. And that is the honest truth. We would not. We would still be designing and drafting and meeting and doing what we're trying to do.

Bad things. We do enjoy that side of it. But we wouldn't have had such exciting.

Yes.

I mean, it is cool.

Like, my whole, my whole reason for starting business. It was the same in franchising. It's the same now is I like to see women, like, chase their dreams and feel that little giggle in there and go, I think I'm capable of more. Like, I think I can do this and then do it. And it has been so freaking awesome to watch you get out of your comfort zone and do things and like high five each other and blow your own mind in going, what did we just do? We just did that. That was amazing. Who even are we? Like, it's very cool.

I think too, from somebody that's older myself and having had a career in teaching before this and then changing my career, which is so unheard of for my generation.

Yeah.

Women just stuck with what they knew. They didn't step out. No, I'm getting old now. I've got a family. And we did prioritize our family and that was, that was our choice. And I don't, you know, Anyone, like, exactly. And, and that did slow our, our journey as well and our earning capacity at the time as well. But we made that decision independently of one another. But I have found that now and I still get it to a certain degree from, I won't sort of say like friends, acquaintances, a lot of people and a little bit less now, but, but probably a few years ago, it's like, what are you doing that for? Why don't you want to retire? Like, shouldn't you be retiring? You know, and I'm like, I don't want to retire. Like, I don't want to live so long now.

I mean, what are you going to do for the next 50 years?

And yeah, and who says we have to stick to that traditional, you know, you get to a certain age and you retire. Like we can break those molds and, you know, continue on. There's no slowing, no slowing us down.

No, there's not. But I think people, your loved ones in particular, see you working so hard. So if anyone out there thinks that it's an easy ride, it's not. It's hard. And then Karen and I went back and studied two years ago. Yeah, like as well as run the business, as well as trying to. And we really put ourselves under an incredible amount of pressure. And that wasn't the best years of life that particular time, but it was a means to an end. And that also worked in our favor as well with the, you know, with the interior design side of the business. But I think you need to be, Women in particular need to be thick skinned and they need to believe in themselves and they need a team to keep them going because there are so many nursayers out there that try and put you back into your box and back into your place and like, why would you even want to do that? Like why you would. What, what are you achieving? Yeah, and look, there's been times where we're struggling financially because we're doing all the things and we're not putting all of our energy in our paid work because we just don't have the time of the day. But we could see it as a means to an end. And I think for women out there, if there's something you really want to do, and let's face the chase, we, we want to feel like we're worthy, we want to feel like we've achieved something. Why do the mental. And I'm not being, you know, sexist or anything, but it's expected of men, it's not expected of women. So I think you need to push past all of that.

I think it's changed.

Focus on what you want to do.

Changing, definitely. Watching our girls grow up.

Oh, they definitely. Yeah, sure.

Yeah, for sure. Thank goodness. Okay, my last question is, what does success look like for you now?

I think success for us is to, I guess, finally, I don't know where we're going to. To be honest. I don't think there is an end to it. But finally, I think even now, we're now feeling like we've been more and more successful because we can now see that all the hard work is starting to pay off to see that. Right.

You're giving yourself that moment and getting off the treadmill for a little bit and going, look at. Look at what we've done here.

Yeah. Yeah.

And.

And really, again, thanks to our wonderful team supporters. You know, it. Sometimes it takes somebody else to point that out to you because it's a hard slog and you just, you know, you just keep going and keep going and keep going. We can recognize it, but we feel like we're right near the. The tipping point. So once that TV show happens, and I guess once we get out there and people kind of not. And I'm not saying recognize us on the street, but are aware of us, and I don't know, I just think.

To me, more like, people are coming to you rather than you going to.

They are. Yeah.

I was going to say that the, you know, the people that are around us and supporting us are coming to us and saying, oh, you know, how about McCrae and Lynch get involved here? McCrae and lynch get involved there. And. And also for me, success is my family. Just, you know, I can see they're really super proud of Helen and I, and just, you know, that that's success to say, look. Look at those two women in our lives that are, you know, they're doing. Being themselves, doing their thing, and look what's come our way from, as Helen said, the hard work.

So I. I think that's success.

Yay. I am so proud of you. It's such a. I know that can sound condescending to. I am, though, like, it's so beautiful seeing you set the goals and do it and do it together and do it with so much grace and so much class and so much fun that you have as well. Like you, hilarious, which is such a joy to be around. So thank you for sharing your story. I will link to the podcast to Gins in as well as the course if anyone's got a renovation coming up. All of that will be in the show notes below so that you can find Karen and Helen and follow along so that you can watch them on.

TV next year, too.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.