Ep 143 The New Hustle with Emma Isaacs

Emma Isaacs. Welcome to her empire builder.

Yeah.

Great to be here.

Thanks for having me.

Oh, I am so excited. Like, we just, you know, you were like, hit record, Tina. Come on.

I just want to talk to you.

How are you? It's been so long since I talked to you. I think, like, I don't know, time is all gone, but I think like four years, three years, four years.

It can't be that long. It's not possible.

It's a long time. Well, it was before my trip and that was three years ago, so. Yeah, it would have been just before that. I think I ran away from the world.

We have to do. We have to do better than that. We can't let it go another three or four years. I mean, but what is the last couple of years like? We can't count the last 18 months as any sort of barometer of human time. Right. So take that away. And it's only been like, what, a year? That's fine.

I know you're in the US and you've been able to fly around. I just, I'm getting laughed at at the moment because I've booked a retreat in April in the US and people are like, you will not be able to leave the country.

I know, I will.

I will paddle. I will get in a little kayak canoe.

A canoe.

But you've been in the U.S. is it five years now?

It's over six, I think. I think this December it'll be seven. I think that's right. Wow. Yeah. Or have I got that wrong? I don't know. Six or seven. It feels like a while.

Time for lies. Okay, let's start there. So why. Why did you leg it out of Australia over to the U.S. yeah.

So for anyone who's not familiar with my story, I'm what I call a career entrepreneur. I think I just made that saying up. But basically what it means is that I spent my entire career so far working for myself and being self employed and have had some beautiful experiences as a result of, you know, that career path. So I started my first company when I was 18. We bought a really beautiful little business with. With that was a recruitment agency. So had a lot of fun with that. Was invited along to a Business Chicks event when I was in my mid-20s. I said to the person who invited me, absolutely not. No way. Not going to anything that calls themselves chicks that's so derogatory to women. I'm a feminist, I'm an entrepreneur. Not doing that. And she said, get over yourself, Em, and come along to this thing. So in I walk to this incredible room of, you know, a couple of hundred women. There's a guest speaker there who I've. I've got a notepad and pen. I'm ready to write down all her wisdom and all her tips for, you know, running a successful business. And she proceeds to take off her clothes and play the guitar. There's a comedian as a guest speaker, and I just remember having the most wild. You know, it was so fun and being really enthralled with this brand and the way that they put a comedian on stage that would take off, you know, her clothes down to her underwear. So I thought, what is this? And it's fantastic. And I ran back to my recruitment agency, and I passed around my credit, and I said to everyone, let's become members and let's buy three tables. The next event. I've never seen anything like this before. And the way I'd built my first business was really through networking and relationships and making sure that I was doing favors for people, making sure I was becoming memorable, and trying to create an impact with everyone I met, right? So to find this kind of networking thing that I'd never heard of and fall in love with, it was really special. So we went on to the next event. I heard the business was for sale. I ended up running up to the lady at the end and saying, I want to buy it. And, you know, 15 years on, I've really built into what it is today, and, you know, I'm still as excited and juiced about what we can offer the world as I was 15 years ago. So, you know, after being in the business for probably a decade or so, actually, the origin of the story is interesting. I'm not telling you this. I think you already know this, Tina, but I think I'm not telling you this.

The reason I didn't ask you for the origin story is I think it's adorable that you're, like. For anyone that doesn't know my backstory, I'm like, I. I don't think anyone that listens to my podcast wouldn't know your course.

They will. Of course they will. But, you know, one of the really, the toughest parts of my gig, my job, and we have to get you along to this one day, but I get to run a leadership gathering or a conference on Necker island every year, right? And I remember sitting up, having breakfast, and, you know, there were 25 of us there, and Richard was there, and we were sipping on our fresh coconuts, and he was asking One of our members, you know, what's your business? And she was explaining about her business in Australia and he looked at her directly in the eye and he wasn't, he was, he wasn't joking and he was very considerate in his response. He just said to her, wow, is it possible to make money in Australia? And I just, I was kind of floored by that. I was like, wow, like that's quite significant. You know, for him, you know, business happens in North America, it happens in Europe. You know, he does has business in Australia, but it's this tiny little country or continent that floats, you know, in the southern hemisphere. And to him that's not where you sort of make your mark, you know. And I didn't say anything, but that just sort of planted a seed in my little mind and I thought, you know, I have been cruising and I have been doing reasonably well and have reached a level of success in Australia. And you know, truth be told, if I'm being really honest with myself, I am not stretching myself and I'm not expanding in the way I'm trying to encourage everyone around me to expand. So that's why I packed up my little family. Well, I had four kids at the time and we hot footed it to the U.S. you know, we didn't really know anyone. My husband had an uncle who lived in la, but that was sort of the extent of our networks here and you know, just really got to work. I mean, the short story, or long story short is that it was a total flop and a complete failure. You know, I really tried to get business chicks off the ground here for a good probably 18 months before running entirely out of money and energy. And you know, I was in a situation where my Australian business, I'd put a CEO into the company, I put a great leadership team, you know, really left the Australian operation in the best of hands. And so I was in the situation of I was sort of bleeding them dry of cash and you know, I had to sit in the discomfort of making a decision. Do I keep on going? And what was the difference do you.

Think, when you tried the us?

Oh, so much. I mean, so much. People, people say that, you know, I mean obviously we are culturally, we think we're culturally similar. You know, we speak the same language and you know, we get all our pop culture from America and we travel to America all the time. But really it's, it's a very, in a lot of ways it's a very, very conservative culture. And you know, we had challenges on brand, on, on the name, obviously. I mean, I just underestimated how much effort it would take to, you know, really get a business off the ground in the US and you have to be very serious about that. And I was desperately underfunded. I should have probably raised money to get it going. A ton of, a ton of lessons and mistakes. But, you know, ultimately, did that have.

To do with the super cryptic story of the partnership that you nearly signed in the US in the book that.

You talk about, super cryptic, I'm like.

I'm reading it going, well, this is.

What was that? No, that was, it was a totally different thing. It was a totally different thing. Yeah, it was a totally different thing. But you know, like, I think, I think there have been a ton of advantages and benefits to being here. And you know, in the process of all that failure and learnings and misfortunes, I've definitely found, you know, I love living here. I love the pace, I love the creativity, I love the people. I mean, I know you've traveled here a lot and we've spent time together here, but you know, I love, love the environment, I love the open mindedness and you know, so, so those things, you know, those byproducts have been really useful in my own entrepreneurial journey and in the lessons that I'm able to help my Australian business learn from. So, yeah, it's that kind of when.

When business tricks didn't work out in the US and you, and you know what, we'll stay here. Like is that you're forever home now or are you, you still seeing how you, I mean, just built the most gorgeous house too.

Yeah, we were lucky. We bought a house just. And we bought a beautiful 100-year-old house just before the, well, a year before the pandemic, we moved in the month before we went into lockdown here. So that was all really fortuitous and amazing. So, yeah, we have an amazing life here and we've carved out a beautiful lifestyle and you know, the kids have American accents and you know, we're very, you know, we're very, very settled here. I feel very at peace and very at home here. I don't know, you know, I mean, you obviously always, if you, if anyone has had expat living experience, you know, you always are pulled to home and there's definitely been many moments of homesickness. But pre pandemic, I was traveling back to Australia, you know, five, six, seven, eight times a year, managed to get.

Back here in pandemic and I'm like, oh my gosh, she's like some magician. How is she coming back and forth?

No, no, that, no, I only did. I did one triple. Right. Yeah, it was good. It was good. I did the two weeks quarantine. I did that with my, my right hand and my baby, the baby was, I don't know how old would he have been? I think nine months or so. But it was actually, it was beautiful. It was like how often do you get to hide from one on one.

With a six child?

One on one time? Yeah, it's amazing. So, yeah, I did, I came back to Australia for two weeks inside, you know, in jail, in hotel quarantine and one week out and yeah, so that was good. That filled up my cup for a minute and I've been back here ever since. So I. And look, I was meant to come back as you know for this new book and I went to tour and there was just no conceivable way that was going to happen. So look, we'll see, we'll see what's going on.

November is the planned new date. So.

Yes, plan new dates, all in the calendar, all booked and everything. But again, you know, like we're at the mercy, right?

Yes. And so this was a new hustle, which I'm super excited about. And I did say to you before we hit hit record, I'm like, I think I should say that other. But, but I will. I think it kicks winging its ass. Like I read it and I went, this is good. It was right up my. I think because a lot of the things that you talk about in other things that I, I'm working on actively at the moment and going, oh right, so much better than this. But I think everybody is all the time. So it's really good. It's a really good concept. But first, the first question I want to ask you about it is did you write it when you were pregnant or with a newborn? Either way is hard.

Yeah, both, both, both, both. So the story with this book, you know, I published my first in 2018. You and I were having a beautiful conversation before we hit record on this podcast episode. But it continues to sell really well. It was the highest selling business biography of 2018 in the whole of Australia was the highest internationally after Elon Musk. So he just beat me there. So that was a really beautiful foray into writing, you know, and very unexpected and a beautiful sur. People continue to tell me that they get value from it. So unexpected.

When you say unexpected, was it unexpected or you just hashtag humble?

I mean, you know me I am hashtag humble. But I also know it was a surprise. You know, I didn't know what I was doing at all. I mean, I still don't really know what I'm doing, but, you know, I gave it my best shot and, you know, it resonated, and I was really, really grateful for that, you know, So I think, second time around, you know what you're doing. You know, we stayed with the same publisher, and we're very grateful for their inp. I write every single word of my book, so I don't, you know, there's no ghost writing or support like that. I probably wrote over 200,000 words, and that got down to about 60,000 the final.

Wow, that's a lot of editing.

Yeah, Yeah, a lot of editing. And probably not probably. This is the third iteration of a book I wrote. So I. You know, it was. It was a really interesting time because I submitted an entire manuscript whilst pregnant. They edited and sent it back to me, and I said, I absolutely hate this. So I started again.

Same concept or totally different concept?

Totally different concept.

Can you say what it was or you might write it again later?

Yeah, I honestly have, like, five or six other titles on the go right now and, you know, bits and pieces. And, you know, when I say I write every single word of my books, I absolutely do. But I do work with, you know, one of my team members who's a really phenomenal structure editor. So between me and her, it's this huge jigsaw puzzle of I will write a piece and then she'll file it, and then she'll be like, that does not belong in the new hustle. That belongs in.

There's many, many other books coming out. I don't know.

I mean, I don't enjoy the press of writing books at all. I find it completely torturous.

It's one of the hardest mental things I think you could ever do.

Yeah, I mean, I think of someone, you know, any entrepreneur who tries to sit down still for a period of time and tries to. So used to snacking on content and snacking on, you know, meetings, and it's all just, you know, it's very, very hard to sit and order your thoughts and. And it's. It's quite tedious, actually. So I don't enjoy it. But, yes, I. I do enjoy the. Not the process. I hate the process. But I enjoy when people, I suppose, echo back, hey, I learned this, and I feel like there's some impact there. Or, hey, that really helped me with this problem. I'm hey, that really set me on a different path or hey. And that's, that's a beautiful part. And you know that from your writing. You do get that feedback to. And it's not about me. I don't care if people say it's great. That doesn't. I have no interest in being validated for that. But if they learn something and take something for their business journey, then amazing. That's, that's awesome. And I suppose I try and write, you know, I don't waste any words. I try and get my point across really, really quickly. And you know, people say that's, that's great. They appreciate that there's. Yeah, there's no time wasted. And I kind of make my point quickly, get onto that.

So practically like energy wise, because you're the mum of six children, which is a lot of humans, how did you, how did you get the brain space and the energy to go, you know.

What I'm going to.

Because you've got to really, like you said, focus for hours at a time to get the book done. Did you go in and out each day or did you kind of take a chunk and go all in in a chunk of time?

Yeah, yeah, I do. I mean, I think what my, I mean what my process is is to when the kids. So I have five, my kids range from 12 down to 15 months. I think the little guy is. So I'm lucky that my 4, 6, 8, 10 and 12 year old children go to school. So that's fantastic. So when they're out the door, I know I have to focus and get a good chunk of writing done. I don't necessarily write in chronological order. I don't like, I don't go, okay, I'm up to chapter two and that's right, chapter two. It's very piecemeal. And then I sit with my editor and I'm like, hey, we were exploring this theme. What do you think? And she's like, you need to give way more, you know, meat to those bones. Or you need to give me a case study, you need to give me a story, you need to question me and I'll then write. So it's really just, you're trying to get the work into pieces of a couple of hours at a time. And then, yeah, as I ramp up to deadlines and try, you know, the publishers sort of saying Kate needs to be submitted by this date. I will go to a hotel and just book a hotel room and sit and try and, you know, write not just in the daytime, but at nighttime as well. It's like anyone would imagine. It's stealing moments where I can. Inspiration does come when I'm in the shower, so I'll reach out and write a note on a piece of paper. But it's just doing the best I can in every single moment. So it's not as if I go, I'm going to write a book in the next month, and I'm going to sit down and go away and go on a retreat. Doesn't work like that. It's like, steal the moment, you know, get it out. I feel like you have to have a lot of discipline when you write. I don't know that I'm. I'm certainly not the best technical writer in terms of being that discipline, because I like to feel my writing. I like to, you know, when I have a moment or a thought or a feeling or often it'll be like, I'll go on a rant and then someone be like, you need to write about that. No one's talking about that. So then I'll go, okay, great. And then I'll go and write about it. But, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't know what your process was, but I hazard a guess it's very, very different for everyone. And, you know, when you do have a. Have any children, doesn't matter if it's six or two, like you were one or whatever. Like, it. It is stealing moments and doing your best, and you've got to do what.

You'Ve got to do. At the time, like my first book, I actually went to Fiji for a week and just immersed in it and smashed it all out in that week and did nothing other than sleep, eat, and write. And I loved that. But this time I was in the pandemic, so it wasn't an option. And I found that way harder. I'm going, if I ever write a book again, I will take great personal sacrifice and take myself off to Fiji.

Yeah. Yeah. It's very hard.

So what made you settle on the New Hustle?

We went back and forth a billion times on different titles, as I did with Winging It. You know, the first two words I wrote when I wrote my first book was Winging it by. Well, hey, five words. Winging it by Emma Isaacs. And then I doubted myself and went back and forth with a hundred titles and came back to full circle, the initial one, the New Hustle. I mean, I think I've got a bit of an obsession with the word hustle, and I think it's Very, very outdated. I think the truth hustling in the traditional sense definitely measures input, and it measures how many hours and how much time you gave to a task or how many emails you wrote or how many meetings you had. I could not care less about any of that. And I think what the pandemic has certainly taught us is that the days of sitting at a desk all day and commuting to offices, all of those practices and all of those disciplines that we've come to accept as normal are no longer the normal. Right? So we can create this new way of being. We can create a new way of working. We can throw out some of those old paradigms and really step into a new way of being. Right. You know, I started thinking about hustling and how hustling is just such a word and how it's one of my least favorite.

Like, every time I hear hustle and grind while they sleep, we work.

I know, it's just so wrong. I don't want to hustle that. So really, for me, this is an anti hustling book, you know, but it's a nod to there is a new way of doing things. There's a fresh way of doing things. I think what the past 18 months has taught us is that we do have choice and that we do need to interrogate why we do the things that we do, and that we do need to interrogate the way things have always been done, and that ultimately it's up to us to choose, you know, what we want for our futures and we want for our lives and, you know, to be proud and to have courage and stepping into that. So that's kind of how I landed on the title. I don't know if it's.

And what do you kind of see? So the reason I ask this is so I know so many people, we're all working through this at the moment where we kind of kind of switch into workaholicalism and have to pull ourselves back and remember. But just because you can or because you love, like, enough already. And I was having a zoom call with a group of business girlfriends last week, and we were all saying, like, what got us here won't get us there and going. We've worked really hard and really purposefully, but burnout is like, across the board and going. And the debate we were having, which I'd love your stance on, it is, yeah, we resist the hard work, and now we want to make better choices and longevity and not have burnout and adrenal fatigue. But could we have started like that? Like, would it have been possible? Or did we need that hard work at the beginning? What's your distinction between, like, hard, purposeful work and hustle? And because I know you worked your tushy off at the beginning as well.

I did. I old hustled my way into where I am today, and I wouldn't change a thing. And I can only speak from my lived experience. You know, what I. What was required of me when I was. I mean, I was very, very young. So as I said, I started my first company at 18, right. So I had all the energy in the. But I certainly was nowhere near thinking about family or.

I miss that energy that we could do that.

Well, it's not physically biologically possible anymore. And you're way younger than me, so shut up. No, I'm not.

I'm like a year or two.

No, you're not. No, you're not. Don't lie. I'm 42. How old are you?

37.

Yeah, see, that's five years. So, you know, I don't believe that I would have gotten to where I am today without that level of dedication and drive and rigor and grit. And, you know, I was just dogged. Like, I would not give up. And I felt bulletproof. And yeah, I had the energy to do it. And I'll always, forever be grateful that I didn't get that start while I had all those resources around me. You know, what I will say from studying some of the world's most successful people and being able to spend meaningful time with them is at some point they have had to step into really, really hard work. And, you know, it's true when I. I'm yet to meet a successful, lazy person, like, you know, they just don't exist. You know, like, I mean, we. We talk about, you know, people who we admire and, you know, because I mentioned Necker before, like, I watch Branson get up every single morning and play tennis for a couple of hours and then be in a hammock and do his, you know, and you think, wow, like, I'm doing all this wrong. But, you know, that that can be really. That that vision can be really misleading because there have been many, many, many decades of, you know, complete hard work and sacrif. Sacrifice and nose to the grind. Effort. So that's a really roundabout way of saying, you know, no, I don't believe I could have. I could be here today if I had not applied myself in the ways that I've applied myself in the past. I don't Want to do it anymore. I don't need to do it anymore. I didn't do it because I had something to prove. But I feel very, very, very comfortable in my own skin. I feel very, you know, proud of.

Where I'm at getting older. I think it is going, you know, what I don't have, like, I had a lot to prove to myself, not other people, but to myself, was driven by. And the last few years is a full shift of going. I don't care.

I'm good zero fucks given. I honestly care less. I know, I agree. I agree. I think, you know, again, you haven't even turned 40 yet, so you're such a baby, but there is just such a beauty that comes with relaxing and into the fact that, you know, just, it's cool. It's, it's, it's exactly how it's meant to be. And I'm doing my best in every moment. And sometimes I'm not doing my best in some moments, but, you know, overall, I'm really proud of, you know, and I can look myself in the mirror and say, you know, you're doing your best and that's great and no one need ask anything more of you. And I think that's a beautiful way to live.

Yeah, totally. Now, I read this line in the book that I want to read because I laughed out loud when, when I read it, and I was like, it's one of those ones that you go, lol. But like, I legit laughed out loud is. It's about talking about Liz Gilbert. It says Liz isn't shy about telling people that if she doesn't get back to their emails, it's not because she's busy, it's because she doesn't care.

I know.

But at what point in your journey did you learn that you couldn't be all the things to everyone and start letting go of other people's perceptions of you?

Oh, I don't think you ever kind of arrive there and go, right, that's old M and this is new M, and never shall the two ever meet again. I mean, I think I worked really, really hard in the early days, maybe my mid-20s, of protecting my time and really understanding that time was my greatest asset and that I needed to work out how to maximize it. So I think I started playing around with that very awkwardly in my mid-20s, you know, being able to practice saying no to certain asks of me and, you know, whether it be an event to go to or someone wanted me as their mentor or whatever that request was. So I did start playing around with it in my mid-20s. But, yeah, I think it's a practice, right? Like, you practice it every single day and you find the courage to say no, and you find the courage to. To create boundaries and to protect what's important to you and what matters. And, you know, I think it's. It's something that I'm still working on and still practicing to this day. You know, there's, there's, there's emails in my inbox at the moment that I haven't got back to because I have to say no to. And I'm still, you know, I'll find the moment, you know, so I'm not for a second saying I'm an absolute. Like, I'm pretty good at it. Like, I have again, I apply myself to the practice and I really have improved a lot. But I. You don't arrive at that. You know, you still, no matter who you are and how far you've come, you know, you from my experiences, I want to be kind to people and do my best always. And, you know, it sucks to have to turn people down and say no at times. But ultimately, if you want to be successful, you want to get ahead, you'd like time is it, you got to protect it.

Yeah. And I think that's why, that's why I loved that this book so much is reading. I haven't quite finished it yet. I got it on Monday, so I'm like halfway through and I just. Because so many of the rules are around boundaries. And I think having boundaries and trying not to people please and learning the opportunities to say no to whilst going, you know, I don't want to say no and cut myself off from things. Because we want to say yes. And we've been working so hard and doing all that. It's one of the hardest things. And one of my favorite Oprah quotes is, big open heart, huge fucking fence. And when she said it, she said it while she was on tour here, and I was like, write that down. I'm like, I love, love that. Because to me, like, having boundaries, it was really hard to learn to do that and not feel like you were being an asshole or that people would be like, gosh, she's too big for her boots. She doesn't want to. I'm not worth her time anymore. How. How have you kind of coped with going, it's okay to say no if someone else. Like, you're always going to say it with kindness. And, you know, I've known you for long Enough, I think I've been a business chicks member. I tried to work it out the other day for like 13 years. Years?

Yeah, it's well over 10 years.

Yeah, it was my first event. And so I've seen you and you've seen me, like, through all of the different stages of all of the different businesses. And you do have that big, huge heart and that huge fucking fence. Like, you do that really, really well. But how have you. How have you managed? Because I see you at events too, where everyone wants a piece of you. Everyone's like, Emma, oh my gosh, lining up to talk to you. And you have to, like, end that at some point. How have you maintained that big heart while going, you know what? I need to protect my energy too, because I've got all of this other life going on?

Yeah, that's a. It's a great question. I think, I think it's possible for the two to coexist. You know, you can be kind and compassionate and giving and generous and also have boundaries for yourself and know that there's a space that's sacred and you need to protect that. And I actually think what we do is walk through life thinking that it's. It's kind of binary, you know, it's like I can only be generous and kind and give all of myself, or I can be a total recluse and an introvert and not give anything, right? So it's. It's. The two can. Can marry and they can coexist and I just, you know, I've spent my life trying to practice this of, of being generous, but also being kind to myself, you know, and so I'm actually, I'm actually. I feel like just recently I'm getting even better just because I'm learning to be in stillness. I'm. You'll laugh at me and don't laugh at me, but I'm meditating every single day. And I'm, you know, I'm just, I'm really, I don't know, I'm really still and I'm really feeling the power of, you know, that being okay and whatever is being okay. And I just love that practice. So I don't think it's been anything that's been entirely conscious, like, oh, okay, I've got to give this work to myself and I'm going to end the conversation and move on. And it's just like, you know, the two can. That they can live inside you. You can be a lovely, generous, beautiful person and, you know, protect yourself at the same time and you know, I'm not saying for a second that I get it. Right. I often get. Get the kind of balance of that off kilter. But I just, you know, I think if the intention is there and you have integrity, then people can sense that. You know, people sense that if you're full of bullshit or if you're genuinely trying your best to do. Yeah. What you can. And. Yeah. I don't know. Does that answer it?

A little bit. Yeah. Yeah. And I think. I think that's good to hear as well, is that you can coexist those together, because I know that's the big fear from all the women that I work with in going, if I say no to this, like, what will they think of me? And will they think I'm horrible? Like, it's always the fear. And so women end up saying yes to everything, and then there's nothing left for themselves at the end of the day.

And it's not just a fear. It's actually a reality. Right. So. And I can say that from the point of view of working with American women and working with Australian women, you know, there is a. There's a cultural comfort over here of. Of. Of boundary setting, of saying no. It's. It's that there's no emote. There's no emotion. It's like, okay, cool, you know, like, you know, do you want to have lunch? No, No, I don't. I can't. Or whatever. Great. It's not like, oh, she doesn't like me. Oh, what do you mean? What else is on that's more important than me? It's just, she said no. Okay, cool. And you move on.

Yeah.

So it's a very different culture in Australia. It's a lot more emotional, and we're in our heads and we overthink and we analyze and we overanalyze, and you just got to let that go. I don't know. I don't know what it is.

And no, I'd never laugh at you for meditating. I love meditating. I meditate every day. And I can't be laughed at at the moment because I'm newly convert to peloton, and I'm like, so into it, and I'm like, I deserve to be laughed at.

That's great. That's awesome. The peloton is awesome. I don't do that at all. But I have an exercise bike that's on my balcony.

It's not the same.

I know. Peloton is a real deal.

So good. I like, like in the cult of Peloton, I'm like, I'm there. Okay. So I want to ask you about social media as well, because so many of the rules that you have in your book and so for people you've got. Is it 70? How many rules? 70.

77.

77 rules. But a lot of them do, like, weave into boundaries and protecting energy and how you get more done in less time and more effective and focusing on what's important for you, which I love. And one thing that fascinating about you is social media. In going, you use social media when you need to, and then when you don't, you're like, you know what? It's not part of my life. And I'm like, gosh, she nails it. How do you do that?

Do I. Oh, my gosh. You need to talk to my team. My team think I absolutely, categorically do not nail it.

Because you use it for what you need. Like when you need to talk about the book or when you need to talk about an event, you've got it there and then other than that, it's just left.

Yeah, I just have no interest. I think it comes back. I have. I have no need to be. For anyone to. Like. People don't have no clue of what goes on in my life, and I don't feel the need for them to. I don't know. It's like there is so much stuff that is sacred and private to me, and it's between me and my family and my dear friends, and it's not for public consumption. It's like just.

It's.

I don't know. I think we give so much of ourselves and we don't save. Yeah, I don't know. It's a sacred question to me. I don't know. I just don't feel the need to share everything. I don't share anything. In fact, I share like 5% of my life. And people said to me, oh my gosh, if people actually knew what was going on in your life, like, they would lose it. Like, they would actually not be able to cope with what happens in your life. I'm like, well, that's great, but I'm not living my life for other people, you know, I'm living my life for me. And I don't feel the need, need to share that and express it on social media all the time. I don't go to social media. I don't numb myself through scrolling. I don't do that at all. I mean, that's not to say I haven't in the past, but you know, that doesn't go for just social media. I don't watch tv. I don't. Definitely don't want to at the moment.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. But yeah, I mean, I would. I don't know how we have two TVs in this house and I don't know how to turn on one of them. And I, like, I don't even think it works. So, you know, it's. It's just not. It's not a part of my life. And I think that has come from this weird obsession that I have with time and how we spend it and the study of that. So I do try and be mindful with what I'm doing in every moment. And if I find myself, like, if I, let's say if I post them on Instagram and then I like go to scroll and then I'm like, what am I doing? Why am I doing this? Stop it. Why am I doing this? Stop, stop. And I just, Yeah, I do. I am pretty disciplined like that. I'm pretty bit like you, bit hardcore with my discipline. So I can just put it down, turn away. And I was saying this before, I was speaking to a friend of mine. Like, I can go for two days without knowing where my phone is. You know, it's. It's weird, but I have so many kids that they will take it and, you know, be watching something and then they'll put it in the toy box or they'll put it under a pillow and I just won't have my phone for two days. And I know I could use find my iPhone if I really, really want to, but, you know, it's. It's like, it's cool. I don't, I don't need my phone. And you know, it's. Again, I don't want to pay myself as this person who has not had addictions and, you know, being glued to my phone and I certainly use it as a distraction from time to time, but it's just social media is something that I got very, very clear about and it doesn't make me feel good to be scrolling all the time. So I just, I try not do it. I love that.

So what does your day to day look like now with. How involved are you with the Australian operations of business chicks? Have this changed since the pandemic?

Yeah, I mean, it has. It's more changed because our CEO was on her maternity leave or parental leave. So, you know, for those six or so months, I was quite hands on and, you know, we needed to be, I mean, a huge part of our business was swept away when all the restrictions came into place. And I think you've read this part in the book. You know, for me it was, it was a fantastic opportunity to return to being like the scrappy entrepreneur I was. You know, I grew up in business being right, like just the person who would not schedule things and would just be in the moment and would try and read a room and try and understand what our members needed and, you know, met them at that level. So for me, it was fantastic for a lot of the people in the team who like to schedule and like to plan everything out six months in advance, you know, having all that thrown away and me having a director saying, it's not possible, so stop talking about it. We don't know, we don't know what's happening next week, let alone in six months time. So we have to change that way of working and be here and be now and kind of look at things that way. So, yeah. So during the pandemic, it happened to coincide my CEO's parental leave. So I was very, very hands on. I was also 400 weeks pregnant during that time. It felt like. So that was all good, but I've stepped back a little bit more now that she's back in the seat and doing a fantastic job. But, you know, and you know this, Tina, and you and I have talked about this before, but like, in a lot of ways I feel very, very privileged and very grateful to be living like the entrepreneur's dream. You know, I have a business that I don't need to be operational in and, you know, it does well every month and, you know, affords me the space to think of other things and to, yeah, just work at a different level than being, you know, always on every single day. And so I'm very, very.

Which is. It is the dream. And I also know you're always working on something, though. What is, what's the next big goal for you? And when we used to be able to see each other all the time. I know you always spoke about seven kids. Is there a seven?

No.

Because you've been like pregnant or breastfeeding for 12 years.

I know when you put it like that, when you put it like that, it sounds like a lot. No, there won't be a seventh child. I don't. I think it would be entirely unreasonable. I think. I don't know. I mean, it's been a really interesting time not being able to be distracted with all the things that we used to distract Ourselves with. Right. So, you know, I alluded to it before. Being able to kind of have a break and go to Australia for a week or two was a way that I coped with the pace of, you know, my life as a mum of six kids and the businesses that I built. So when you take away those kind of distractions and you're left with, whoa, this is the enormity of the task in front of you. And now go home.

Imagine. Breakfast time.

Breakfast is crazy, man.

Breakfast.

It's crazy. But we vibe well, you know, like a lot of my friends come over and they're like, I know. Like, I have friends who have two kids and their houses are more chaotic than this, you know, so it's somehow mostly kind of works. But yeah, breakfast is. Breakfast is fun. I mean, they're back in school now. We had the tremendous summer break of 11 or 12 weeks and they're back in school now. So the two big ones are out the door first and the three next ones go to the same school. Is that right? Yeah. And then the little guys at home. So it's actually, it's okay. It's fine. I don't even know what your question was, but we're talking about what's the.

Next big goal that you're working on?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm not sort of of. I don't know. I think I've changed my wiring like that. You know, I'm not really. I don't know.

I remember when we were in Uganda and we were talking and you. We were talking about plans and I was going, okay, this is my 10 year plan. And then this is the five year and this is three year. And then this is broken down into one years. And you looked at me, you're like.

I was like, oh, boring. You don't know.

And you were right, I didn't know. But I stopped being like that so much because I know that, like, if. If when I was like that, I missed a whole lot of opportunities because I was so tunnel visioned on. No, this is just where I'm going, not looking sideways at anything. But then I missed all these amazing things. So I'm a lot more bendy now. So I know that's where you're coming from. When I'm like, okay, what's next?

No, I mean, like, yeah, I mean, I think I'm even more relaxed now than I was perhaps back then. I mean, I really. And we, you know, there's a bit in the book I talk about this, you know, and it's It's. It's care of our friend Liz Gilbert, you know, and she says something along the lines of, you know, let your life surprise you. And I. I love the idea of that. I love the idea of, you know, the not knowing, and I love the practice of trying to be in the uncertainty. And I think the pandemic was a really great litmus test for a lot of us, you know, to relinquish that control and to really try and step into that enormity of the not knowing. And I love that I've been practicing that for a while, so I don't really have. I don't really have a huge, you know, next goal. I mean, I've got lots of projects in the works, but I'm really content and I'm really happy. And that's not to say I'm not ambitious, but I try and go about my business, you know, in. With ease and grace, like what we talked about before. Just ease and grace. Ease and grace. And, you know, I know, and I trust that opportunities will come up, and I know, and I trust that I'll be able to meet them or I'll be able to say no to them, and I love that. I just. I love being able to live my life that way. And for me, it brings a certain level of, you know, of comfort and. Yeah. So I will often say, you know, more of the same. Just more of the same. Yeah.

I love that this book is a work of art. I love it. I really, really do. And I think, think it's going to be so helpful to so many people, no matter what level you're at, it's very thought provoking. Like, at the end of every little rule part, it made me stop and go, huh, huh? How am I going with that one? Am I doing that okay? Do I need to change that? Like, it's really good. Yeah. So thanks, Emma. Thank you.

Thanks for having me. Love you.