Ep123 - How to recognise when you need a business mentor and where to find one with Kelsey Chapman

Kelsey, welcome to her empire builder.

It is such a joy to be here with you today. Thank you for having me.

And you are fresh back from the Dominican Republic, which we were just talking about. And I am so jealous because we haven't got to go anywhere. And what was that feeling like when you got that sun hitting your face?

Well, oh, my gosh. I mean, first the sun hitting my face and seeing water. I am my best self by the water, which you probably see more regularly than I do. But also, you live in Nashville. Yeah, I'm landlocked here. I mean, I've got some lakes, but I'm pretty landlocked. And I think too, it was the first time I've not touched my email for a week straight in five years. So.

Wow. How have you gone five years without doing that?

I think I bought into a pretty bad limiting belief of just I need to be available. A crisis will occur. It needs to be me that answers it. Obviously, I have some control things going on there. I like to. I'm not a control freak, but I mean, the writing is on the wall. And so I think I just thought I couldn't and I thought. I didn't think that logging off would have gratification that lasted beyond the week. I thought it would be relaxing to be offline for a week, but I didn't realize that even when I came back, I'd have so much more clarity and margin. The creative margin already it's just like, okay, I will be doing this.

So now, how often have you planned in those intervals of switch off?

At least four weeks out of the year, Once a quarter. I travel a lot more than that. But realistically, you know, you travel in a normal world a lot more frequently. So I can't take off every time, but I could probably schedule no calls on those days and just catch up on emails or do admin. When I travel, plan to only do calls and stuff where I have to be fully present when I'm at home. So it just taught me a lot. Like, I can show up so much better if I take space.

Yes. And it's amazing how you've kind of got to burn out a little to get that lesson properly. Like, there's always. I had adrenal fatigue in 2016, which taught me amazing lessons because I also like you subscribed to. Well, you know, if it is to be, it's up to me and I can do it so fast and so well. So I'm going to do it. But there's only so much that we can do. And then we'll burn out. I switch off from Friday to Sunday. I have no phone. No. A lot of the time. No social media, definitely no emails or anything like that. And it is amazing to go four days on, three days off. Beautiful.

That is something I've been considering. So that might have just affirmed an inkling I had about least deleting email and social from my phone on Fridays through Sunday night or Monday morning.

And it's something I was so worried about. But no one notices or cares. Like, no one knows. Yeah, I'm not that important.

I know. And I like to respond to every email, every dm, everything. But I'm like, but it can wait until. Cares. Yeah.

And then the other thing, talking about not. This is not where I intended our conversation to go, but this is for everyone is going. One week out of every month is a week where I have no appointments. Like, it's white space. So it's very much a work week, but it's a creative work week. And that week is like bliss because I can go. What am I feeling? And I'll make videos and reels and all the things without any interruption. It's phenomenal. Definitely recommend it.

Okay. You were speaking my language because I thought of this, of having just a week with. It's the start stop of meetings. I'm so. I'm an extrovert. So I love meetings. But the start stop disrupts my creative flow. So I think you're just. You're pegging me.

Yeah. All right, so tell me about your business and how you got to where.

You are now, man. Well, I am a jewel of all trades and I've had quite the journey. But I got started probably six years ago because I wanted to write books. I, you know, graduated with a liberal arts degree. Like many people who graduate with liberal arts degree. It's not the most useful job. College.

What do I do with this?

You know, and so a spin of years. You know, I worked for the government for a year. Nothing fancy, but, you know, just like normal jobs. And after a few years of that, I kind of was like, well, I'll just start a blog. You know, I've always wanted to be a writer. And no one's going to just, you know, pick up a book for me if I have no audience. That would be just a journal, pretty much. And so I need to create a blog and showcase that there's a demand for my words, which is so interesting because I didn't really have a marketing background, but that just kind of came Naturally to me. I had taken some marketing classes in High School. What, 16? How old am I? I'm 31, like 13 years ago since I've been in that kind of marketing class, but. And I've always had these marketing tendencies and these entrepreneurial tendencies, but I really just, I wanted to be a writer, and so I just thought, I need to showcase that there's a demand for these words. And so I started writing and I was like, okay, how do I get people to my blog? I had a little blog spot blog, you know, when you'd buy templates for your blog spot.

What did you start out writing about?

Oh, gosh, it was. We had a marriage and motherhood Monday, although neither of us were mothers, so I have no idea why we thought that was a great idea. We had guest posters for that, but why? I'm not sure. We had a fitness Friday, and both of us love to travel. We've both been around the world. So we had a travel Wednesday. And really just lifestyle posts. We weren't trying to be influencers or famous. That was really before influencing was a thing.

Hasn't the world changed a lot in five years?

Yeah, influencing was a bit on the up and up. And we saw, like, numbers equated to opportunities. So we weren't looking to necessarily, you know, make a full time living with fashion blogging. But if we were like, we can get our numbers up to get what we want, we'll do it. And so for me, that was a book deal and to maybe be able to quit my day job at some point, but really to just be able to take my creativity to the next level. And so we did everything we could do to grow. We learned Instagram, we kind of looked at the landscape of social media. Pinterest felt overwhelming. I mean, it still feels overwhelming for me, although it can be very powerful, especially for blogging. Facebook, even at the time, was kind of dependent on ads. It wasn't quite like it is today. And Instagram just felt the most malleable. It's kind of like what Clubhouse is right now is what Instagram was when I got started. It was just like the perfect time to get in and grow. And I'm telling you, my arms would hurt up to my elbows every day. I mean, just carpal tunnel from being on my phone. And that sounds crazy, but it created some opportunity for me. So here we are. So we grew to 40,000 pounds followers that year on Instagram and 10,000 page views a month, which for two little girls from a suburb in Tennessee, we're pretty pleased.

No buying those followers, no paid, no.

Buying, no paid ads. We knew enough to think, okay, like we know if you buy followers. I've never actually been to a purchasing followers website. And no shame for anyone out there who's done this because sometimes you just don't know better. Especially back then. But we knew like, okay, but if they're purchased, they're not. Like my ideal reader. Again, we didn't really have any marketing background, but we knew we needed to showcase like, this is someone, if they read my blog, they'll read my book. Right. And so we were thinking in a business sense without really knowing it. We were just winging it.

And 40,000 in a year. So what, what when you were giving yourself carpal tunnel every day, what were.

You doing engaging with new people every day? So we'd say, okay, if they follow and we'd really cross pollinate in a few different areas of interest. So if they follow this traveler, because we have the Travel Wednesday segment, let's engage with all these travel people on Instagram. Again, influencers were very, very small. It wasn't even like it is today. But let's engage with their commenters, their followers, their audience. If they are an author, we love that. We think will write similarly to let's engage with their followers. If like her, they'll like us. And we kind of just took that approach. I mean, we were on our phones constantly and it really probably robbed us from being present for our real life. After that year, I was like, I'm never going to waste my life creating an insta life, but it did. I think there is a season for running and a season for resting. And that was a pretty extensive season of running for me. And I don't function like that now. I don't think my phone should be that big of a pie chart of my energy each day. But it did create some opportunity for me.

Yeah. And I love that because you hear, you see a lot of those success stories and people will go 40,000 followers in a year. Like, I want that. But a lot of people aren't willing to put that effort in that you put into it. So I love that you talk about that. You did actually spend all day, every day talking to people and going like old school on it too, in that, that real valuable connection, which I love totally.

It's like the people who sit in clubhouses for 16 hours a day right now, they're not really in there, but they're leaving it open. I don't know that I want to do that to there. Maybe I'll figure out a way to maximize my time and not spend that much time. But if that's what it takes, I'm probably not gonna do it right now.

Yeah. I find Instagram so much more leveraged. The hard part, the clubhouse for me has been the time I go, who are these people that are sitting there just listening all day? Like, do some work or get outside and have fun. Yeah, but we'll probably eat our words in a couple of years and go, yeah, I know. That's it. So now you're. So you went from talking about all things lifestyle. How did you hone that into talking about the mentorship that you're talking about now?

Man. So I think I realized then that anything I learned, I want to teach. And so that was really even my entry point into the online business and marketing space. I never intended to be in this space. Like I said, I'd been in marketing classes in high school, but I didn't even do that in college. You know, I had had teachers even in high school say, you've got to go into marketing. And I'm like, no, thank you. I'm gonna do something more creative and noble.

More creative. Marketing is like the most creative thing there is.

Oh, I know. It's what I do now, but at the time, I just thought it was, you know, so stuffy, and I didn't really have an experience or an example of a solar solopreneur marketer. I was thinking corporate. Really?

Yeah.

So I realized, though, in that moment that anything I learn, I love to teach. And now a few years fast forwarded, as I sat down to write the book, I realized, oh, anything I learn, I teach. It's because that's been modeled for me. I've had these women invest in me everything they know, and it's totally shortcut my process. But at the time, that's really just how I segued into the online space was okay. Like, we closed up shop on that blog after a year. We had different visions for where it would go, but then we kind of went our separate ways into our own thing, and I really focused on the business side of things for a few years. I blogged less and less. I think the admin of doing this online business thing kind of zapped my creative energy there for a while. But then I got back in a groove. I started writing again. And what came out of me was this story of mentorship. And that is the first chapter of my book, mentorship. And it's the story of this woman, Lynell, who invested in me when it was really inconvenient. Turns out, you know, I didn't learn this until I'd known her for 15 years, but she was engaged to my dad and so why would she invest in me? Like, how inconvenient? I personally would not like to do weekend drop offs and sleepovers with my ex college sweetheart's children. Yeah, no thank you. That would mean me interacting with him on a regular basis and I would just prefer not to. But we lived on the street. Her daughter and I picked each other as best friends and instead of squashing the relationship, she fostered it. And she didn't treat me like any other kid that came to her house. And now at 31, her home is truly the most stable fixture of my childhood. I still go to her house and sit in the same two chairs and catch up and talk about life. And so the story of her came out of me and I started assessing and thinking, well man, actually have a lot of women who have invested in me. And if I think about what people ask me, it's how did you find a mentor? Where did you find them? And it's like, well man, if it's been life or business, marriage, friendship, whatever, I've just found someone who's crushing it in that one area. They might not be crushing it in every area, but they're crushing it in that one that I want to grow in. I will ask them to share what they know in the business space that sometimes looks like paying someone because I don't expect someone to just give me their time in what they've learned to grow their business for free. But I'll never regret the money I've invested in online mentors and business mentors. And so I could just shout mentorship from the rooftop. Obviously from that point my business took a, took kind of a course of focusing on mentorship, but really that's my life message.

And so when you're looking at mentorship, are you looking at it from more formal or an informal sort of capacity to go, or both?

I think both. You know, I think life mentors tend to be a little less formal. Like I'm probably not going to pay the mom in my neighborhood who I think is just an incredible mother. I'm going to just make play dates with her and learn.

Like, say there's the mum in the neighborhood and you go, I want to be a mum like her and I want to learn from her. Would you say, will you be my mentor or would you just kind of.

Be there, I'd probably be there and I would put myself in her proximity more and more and I'd feel it out. I've been joking a lot lately of like, you know, we know on the first date not to come on too strong and start talking about babies, right? Like, are you my husband, will you marry me? Or are you my wife, will you marry me? That's a little much right away. So, you know, maybe you just get to know someone and at some point, if it feels appropriate, say like, can we meet on a regular basis? Like, I just see you crushing in that area. I would love to grow in the area you're thriving in. And I also recommend reading the room if that person is a little more open ended. Maybe it's fine to not even label it, but if there are certain people that are like, don't waste my time. Come to our meeting with your three talking points. If that's them. You might need to do that whether they're a business or a life mentor.

Yeah. And so because I do think that it's something that used to happen a lot in society, really naturally, and now we're living in these real, like siloed things where we're not in the community and we're not learning from our mothers and our aunts and our grandmothers and all of that sort of thing. So is it something that you recommend people go and seek out to have that sort of mentorship and that, that sort of guidance?

Yeah, I think it will forever, you know, yield fruit in your life, you know, for lack of better words. I mean, the mentors who have invested what they know, I mean, yeah, I've got some bad advice along the way, but that's my responsibility to wade through. They can just tell me what they know. I can put what doesn't work for me on a shelf and I can take the rest and apply it and then I can do the same for someone else and trust that not everybody piece of advice I give is going to land. But some of it will and maybe it will impact their lives.

Yeah. And so where do you make the difference between going from mentor to business coach?

You know, I've been discussing this a lot and I think there are some nuances in the language we use. So also it depends on like the individual circle and the person that you want to learn from. They might. I'm seeing a lot of coaches calling themselves a mentor now and so kind of reading between the lines of what those expectations are in that circle. But for me personally, I've Hired two women as my business coach. I did not think they would be life mentors. I expected to work with them for the six months or the year and say thank you. You know, like, I had no expectation that they're just going to be available to me forever. But in those relationships, I really also invested back. I said, hey, these are areas where I might be able to serve you and give back to you. These are my sweet spots, especially at the time Instagram. My two business coaches didn't really know Instagram, so I was like, let me help you. I ran their accounts just like I ran my client accounts that I charged for for free. Because I was like, man, what they're passing along to me, I might be paying for it, but I still want to give back to them. They are shortcutting well, and it just felt natural. Like, they. They are shortcutting my process by years, and so why not give back to them? And I think to them, that showed a different level of investment. So am I still paying them? No, but they're still in my life. I don't go to them for everything. If I found myself going to them every day, I'd probably start paying them again because that would maybe be. I would read the room and feel like that might be a little much. Kelsey. But they're kind of like my board of advisors now, where I go and I say, hey, I just want to touch base with you. What do you think about this? This is what I'm doing right now. Does this feel right for me? Like, you know me, You've seen me function in business for four years. I'd love your thought. And so I think that for me, a mentor transitions a little beyond a coach. But then sometimes coaches call themselves mentors, and so you kind of got to read the room. But that's my approach towards it.

Yeah, I love that. And have you got, like, a. When you've had mentors and coaches and the differences in the past, is there a certain time that you think you know what you should commit to that you mentioned before 6 months or 12 months. Have you found an optimal time with the people that you work with to go, this is a good kind of relationship to get everything you can get, and then it's time to be able to grow and move on to someone else, or have you stuck with some people for years and years?

I would stick with someone for years and years. Like the mentors in my life, I paid for their programs for years at a time as a student or a attendee. But I also Started giving back pretty early, within three months, six months. But I will say, I mean, it also depends on your coach's coaching package. Some people only operate on six months or three month windows of time. And so give yourself time and space to test the waters within the context of their program based on what you can afford too, because that's a nuance here. But I think the best relational equity comes from longer term investment because you have time to see people operate in seasons, to see like them thriving during the launch, but also resting and disappearing for four weeks, you know, and so if we're talking in the business space specifically. And so I just, I always say the more time, the better. But also as a person receiving mentorship, as the mentee, it is your responsibility to say, this doesn't settle with me. And maybe I thought I'd be here, you know, six months, but I'm only going to stay on the three month contract. I'm going to honor what I committed to pay someone. But maybe I need to cut it shorter than I thought because this isn't a fit. Because not every mentor or not every person you think you want to be your mentor is going to be a fit. Right.

I'm sure you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I'm a massive fan of mentoring and coaches. I've had, you know, one of my top mentors for 17 years now. She came along to me like in my first, well, I signed up to her program in my first year of business, which was 17 years ago. And she's still someone that I call on to go, hey, I'm thinking of this, what do you think? And is always there to support and give advice and she's just the wisest woman ever.

Yes. It sounds like we have such a similar experience. I love, I always tell my mentors in the least stage five clinger way, like I very much can read a room, but I'm like, y' all are my ride or dies and you're stuck with me for life. But then I'm like, but if I ever come on too strong, tell me to back off.

People love it. People love, appreciate it. And that's the thing. I do think there's a difference between for me, the mentorship and the business coaching and going like you said, when people charge for their services, you can't get that for free. But then there's different things in going, like get advice and have that help and there is that line there where you can then choose, do you want to pay them for their services or do you want them There as kind.

Of on the periphery, like a sounding board.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So good. So good. Okay, so tell me about your book, man.

Well, I clearly love women investing in women or, you know, people investing in people. It doesn't just have to be female oriented because I've benefited so much from these ladies who aren't crushing it in every single area of life. I mean, anyone who's ever been married knows no one's perfect. And so how could you have a mentor that's literally perfect in every area? That would be an impossible expectation. So these are ordinary women operating extraordinarily in one area of life or two or three, but not every single area. And I think stripping away the expectation of someone being perfect or on a pedestal or famous, that's a big one right now. Right? We want the famous mentor or the most known mentor. You know, I just think that's not necessary. They might be an ordinary person in your life already, and they can pass along extraordinary wisdom that can change everything for you. One sentence can change everything.

Yeah.

And so I wrote my stories to highlight different lessons that I learned from each mentor to showcase. Hey, we really zeroed in on this. We didn't zero in on everything. We zeroed in on this subject with this person and then helping the reader to look for that in their own life first in their inner circle. That person might already be there. They might not, and they might need to go out and look for it. I've been in seasons where I'm like, okay, I am assessing my circle, and I don't think that person is here. Like, I need to go find it. Especially when I jumped into having my own business. I didn't know anyone who ran an online business. You know, this is a relatively newer industry, so I didn't know anyone in my town of 100,000 people doing that. There probably are, but I didn't personally know them, so I had to go look for that. And that was uncomfortable and sometimes, like, the very worst part of dating, but it's worth it.

Yes. Yes. Excellent. All right, so I've linked to the book down below in the show notes so you can find you and you're very easy to find on social media and everything. So share the episode. Let Kelsey know that you are listening. Any mentoring words of wisdom that you would like to leave people with?

Man. Well, when you're looking for a mentor, put yourself out there. It's going to feel vulnerable and awkward. I've been there. I remember walking up to Harriet at a cookout and saying, can we meet for coffee. And she was like, why? What do you think I have to offer you? And I'm like, you're just amazing. You know, it was uncomfortable, but it's worth it. I'd say the risk is worth the reward. You might risk rejection, but I'd say when you do have that connection, that's meaningful. It's worth. You might risk rejection, but I'd say when you do have that connection that's meaningful, it's worth it. It's worth any rejection you might encounter along the way.

I love that we all need to be more supported. I think mentorship, masterminds, business coaching, anything that can surround you with a tribe of people that are in your corner is the most fabulous thing. It's a superpower.

Yeah. Sign me up. I love mentorship.

Thanks so much, Kelsey.

Thanks for having me.