Ep139 Secrets of the world's ultra wealthy with Kaitlyn Carlson

Caitlin, welcome to the Her Empire Builder podcast.

It is my pleasure to be here. I am so excited.

Okay, so let's get straight into it. So you used to be like a private wealth manager for super cashed up individuals and then you left that to start your own practice firm.

What do you. Yes, yes, that sounds super fancy, but yes, that is what happened.

Yeah. So what drove you to leave that world and go out on your own?

So that's a good question. When I was in private wealth management, it was a great experience. You know, I spent the majority of my 20s working with, as you mentioned, the ultra high net worth. So I got exposed to a level of wealth that not a lot of people come across in their lifetime. And that was extraordinarily interesting. I got to see some really savvy, incredible strategies. It taught me how to think differently about money. Also taught me pretty early on in life that money does not mean everything and it does not buy happiness. And so to learn lessons like that in your 20s, it's pretty remarkable. So it was great. I mean, I was fairly intentional about where I started my career in wealth management. I went to UBS Wealth Management, which was the largest wealth management firm in the world. And they were very selective about the number of advisors that they had. And they would pay for me to get my cfp, which is my certified Financial planning designation. So, you know, that was all stuff that was really important to me. I wanted to get that level of experience. Um, and honestly at the time, I don't think I ever would have pictured myself going out on my own. But the truth of the matter is that I, I had both a great and a terrible experience at ubs. I had a great experience in the sense that I, by the time I came out of my financial planning program, I had done over 300 financial plans. So I got very wide and deep, varied exposure. The terrible side of that is that it's still an incredibly male dominated industry. And that was very much felt not only by myself, but by pretty much every woman that I worked with. I mean, I had a pretty extreme experience in my time there. I filed six sexual harassment complaints in three years.

Oh my gosh, you're kidding.

No, I got sexually harassed my very first week there by a 68 year old man. So that kicked off my experience in wealth management, which was less than stellar. And the culture still to this day is very much silence around the matter and come to find out, you know, so, so that gentleman tried to intimidate me not to speak up. Fortunately, my husband, he Was my boyfriend at the time was very supportive of me coming forward with the claim, especially given the things that were said to me. They were. I don't even feel comfortable saying them on the podcast. They were so horrifying. But I did come forward and come to find out that guy was fired from another major bank for the same thing. He had harassed other assistants in the office. He had a history of having interns who were also likely harassed. So this guy. And now he's at another major bank. So, yeah, that is still.

Did you see it change slowly when times up movement came in and anything like that? Or it's just. It's still too ingrained.

That's so. That's really interesting. So this happened to me before the MeToo movement, which made speaking up even more terrifying because I felt like it. It was just happening to me and I was scared of what the consequences were going to be. I didn't know if they were going to take his side. I didn't know if I would be fired. You know, I just had no idea this was like.

That happened to you. That's awful to happen in your 20s, especially when you've worked so hard to get to where you are.

Like, it's just disgusting. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing, right? So, like, part of my job description was going around and building relationships with advisors in the office. And it's just a really unfortunate situation to be put in. And then as a woman, like, I had to turn around and pretend that everything was okay because the investigation was confidential. And it wasn't until a year later that an assistant came to me and she had heard through the grapevine that I filed the complaint that that resulted in that advisor being terminated. And she shut the door to my office and she said, I will never be able to thank you enough for coming forward and filing that complaint. Because that guy tortured me for six years and I'm a single mom and I couldn't leave my job. And when she said that to me, I was just like, forget it. Anything that is said that is out of line, like, you know, so that's. That's what gave me the motivation to file the rest of the complaints. Because for that whole year after that investigation, I still put up with a lot, but I didn't want to be overly sensitive. But it's still very much an old boys club. I wanted to come forward and lay a paper trail for other women where they'd have a leg to stand on if they wanted to come forward and also report behavior like that, that was inappropriate. So I feel like I did a lot of legwork before the Me Too movement. Yeah, I'm hopeful that it is starting to change. I certainly think there's more training and conversation around it. To say that it's not still that way is probably. We probably still have some work to do as an industry. I mean, CFPs that are female, I think are still way below 20%. So it's still a very. That's why.

It's because they kind of pushed out early.

To be honest with you, I'm not entirely sure. I mean, I think finance is just such a male driven industry and it's intimidating for people that are outside of it and it takes a lot to stay in it, particularly if you want to become a mom, you know. So I do think that there's a kind of like a glass ceiling. Someone once said to me. Also a sticky floor to where. Although, you know, what with COVID it's kind of all up in a year, who really knows? But I will say on the whole, I think things have improved, gotten better. I want to say the next next generation coming up is making it, you know, more welcoming for women. But I still think there's a tremendous amount of work to do so that.

I can understand why you went, you know, bugger this, I'm, I'm out of this. And starting your own. Is that what drove you to focus on women's wealth?

So, yes. And I just, it's a little bit of everything in my story. I mean, I have from a young age always loved empowering women and, you know, that experience, I did feel like I needed to leave. I felt like it was a toxic environment. But I, I struggled for a little bit. So I ended up leaving UBS and starting my own firm. At that point in time, I was focused on what's called exit planning. So people who want to sell their companies, I was helping them through that. But understandably, given what I had gone through, you know, I was still trying to build my business by prospecting 60 year old men, which was just not a good fit on a soul level, you know, it was just not fulfilling. It was enough to make me think, like, am I doing what my true calling is?

Yeah.

And there were a couple things that happened that really helped me admit to myself what would light me on fire to do. And one of them was my husband pointing out to me that I continuously came back to just loving female entrepreneurs. I would follow them on Instagram, I would read articles about them. I volunteer as a coach at Babson College, which is an accelerator for female entrepreneurs. It's just, I just love empowering and supporting women. And another one was hiring a sales coach. And, you know, I felt like, okay, I'm starting my own business. Like, I'm responsible for my own business development. And through my conversation with her, she really helped me recognize that there was a need in the marketplace. And, and so she said to me, I've been making seven figures for almost 10 years. And I went to see a traditional financial advisor. I mean, she didn't say traditional, but she said, I want to see a financial advisor. And he told me I had to have a million dollars in assets for him to even work with me. And she was like, I don't even know how to get to a million dollars in assets. And I thought, huh, that's really interesting. You have high cash flow. But just because that would be considered affluent doesn't mean that you know how to build wealth. And so I saw this gap in the market to where fortunately, because of the Internet, women are able to make more money than they've ever made before. That doesn't mean that they automatically have the skillset to know how to build that into wealth and build that into a comfortable lifestyle and maybe even legacy wealth, if that's what they desire. So that's when I really decided to take Theory my company in this direction of working with women who are making more money than they've ever made before and teaching them how to think strategically, how to think like a high net worth person, and all of the strategy and logistics that come with building wealth.

I love that so much. In the intro you said, you know, you were exposed to a lot of things through your 20s because of being surrounded by high net worth individuals. What do you, what surprised you? What sets them so apart?

So I think that people who have money understand that money makes money, and that's a really important concept to understand. You know, I think that somewhat of the, the mindset that I grew up with, because I grew up middle class, was that you earned a paycheck and that was your income and you lived off of that. So I never really grew up thinking about spotting opportunities where I could have my money work for me. You know, it was just always this concept of like, I work for my money and, you know, I have to bring in the next client or bring in the next paycheck. So it was kind of like a paycheck to paycheck mentality. Whereas wealthy people are really good at taking a step back and looking at strategic Opportunities. And I think when it comes to building wealth, I think it's doing two things really well. It's this mix of habits and inflection points. So instilling good habits such as, you know, automatically every single month putting money away into an investment account, whether it's like a retirement account or a normal brokerage account or a Roth ira, those habits add up to significant money over a long period of time. But then there also come these moments in your life that are strategic inflection points, such as selling a business or such as buying a home. And having really savvy strategic advice at that point in time can make a huge difference, especially when it comes to something like selling a business. So that mix of habits and inflection points, that's really what gets that snowball building, you know, much faster than not having that advice. Yeah, I just felt like. Yeah, I just felt like people that were wealthy, they. They got that and they were able to master that. Many of them were business owners, I will say, where I think wealth management does not do a good job. And this is what's different about theory. My company is, when I was in traditional wealth management, we would kind of like, ignore the business on the balance sheet. But your business is your greatest opportunity for wealth creation.

Yeah.

And so it's really important to be looking at that as your best opportunity for wealth creation. And that means, like, running a financially healthy company, taking advantage of the opportunities that are available to you as a business owner. Because, like, if you're an employee, you might only have one, maybe two options when it comes to something like saving for retirement. If you're a business owner, you have many ways to accumulate wealth. Many ways, not only, like, in selling your business and growing the value of your business, but also in terms of, like, retirement savings, you know, or. Or expenses that you can run through the business. Yeah. I mean, one of my favorite mentors.

I had always said, use the business. The business is to create the wealth and then take it out and grow it in your investments. Like, that's like the perfect scenario.

And I was like, oh, okay, yeah, yeah, yes, yes. That makes total sense. And it's really. It's important to think about that because, you know, one thing that I'll say that happened a lot is our businesses are babies. Right. Like, you just want to nurture them, and you want to see them become everything that they can be. And so your natural inclination is to continue to invest and invest and invest. But it's really important to think about building your financial independence away from the company. And the earlier you can do that in your career, the better. Because what happens is it takes the pressure off down the road of having to sell your business or of having to all of a sudden put a ton of money away when it's not that convenient. If you start younger, you don't have to put as much away. You could be putting a few tens of thousands of dollars away versus I've spoken to some people in their 60s where I'm like, you have to put, you know, $250,000 away. That's a big ask of somebody. You know, I think a lot of.

People, like, I'm always really fascinated that I've been worried, not worried, concerned about my retirement since I was like, 19. I'm gonna plan for this now because you see so many people in their 50s and 60s, and then they start thinking, oh, wow, like, we've got another, you know, 50 years of life here, and we don't want to work our butts off of this. And then it's not too late, but it's definitely much harder. And I know, I know for me, I had the strategy before. So I had a traditional business before where everything, like you said, was invested back in the business with the goal of build to sell. So one day I was. I was building so that I could sell the company, and that was going to be like, my opportunity for wealth in my lifetime to build off that. Whereas this business, because now it's built on personal brand, it's actually unsalable. And for a lot, of course, creators that are building on their personal brand, it's not a saleable business that we have because it's built on ourselves. But I still think that when it's done with smarts throughout, rather than having to build to sell, you can actually take that money consistently and invest it and end up with far more than building and selling, obviously, depending on the company. But, yeah, it's not.

You should come work at theory. I mean, you could not have articulated that any better. It's so true. Because it's. That's what I say to my clients, like, if their brand and their business is contingent on them and they're the face of the company, that's when it's even more important for them to establish personal and financial independence away from the company. And your business is like, in this amazing mechanism in which you can do it and you can put away way more than the average employee.

Yeah.

You know, so.

So using the lady that you. Your sales coach that you used before as a Bit of an example there, because I do speak to a, of women that think, you know, they can't invest yet because they're not earning enough. And, you know, one of the things that I talk to women about, I'm not a money expert by any, by any sense. I'm more of a business, business generalist. But wealthy women is something that I'm very, very passionate about because wealthy women change the world. And I really want that kind of balance of wealth to come across. But. But one of the things that I say all the time is like, you don't have to get to a certain point before you start going, okay, what should I be doing with my finances? Like, it can start at the very beginning. Are you in your business? Do you see that? You know, like you said before with traditional wealth managers in going, okay, so you need a million dollars in net worth before we'll even look at you. Is there a certain kind of point where you think people should get to before they go and get professional advice, or is it going, you know what, let's start right from the very beginning? What, what's your advice around that?

So, no, because if you wait on the former, if you wait to get to a certain level, it is not to say that it won't happen, but you will have missed opportunities to build wealth. You should start from day one. I literally worked with a woman who I told her to just put a dollar away a month. Usually what I do with clients is I help them set up the infrastructure first. So we just set up the channels, like, you know, the auto debits, the, you know, getting all the, like I was talking about before, the habits, right? The habits are really what create wealth. And so even if you're starting with $1, it's important to get that habit into place. And as you grow, then you can scale it up, right? You know, then you're putting $200 away, then you're putting $5,000 away. At least those channels are set up. It's never too early to start doing that. And the one thing that you can't get back is time. And time is your most valuable asset as an investor. You at 19. I mean, that's so many years of compound interest that you can't get back at 40. And that's not to say, don't beat yourself up if you're 40, get in now.

One of the favorite books I've seen recently was from Mel Brown, and she said, it's like, don't time the market. It's time in the Market because I know that so many people sit there and go, well, you know, with what's going on in the world at the moment, for example, going, should we buy? Should we not buy? Should we wait until all this passes over? And going, but you know, we're not day traders. We're not going to be trying to time the market with that. Like, do you think it's better to just get in when you're ready and just hold, or is it going to be different from person to person?

No, I think those are pretty universal principles. Time in the market is the most important thing. Even Warren Buffett is not great at timing the market. You know, it's impossible because you have to get it right statistically, you have to get it right several times. If you're going to time the market, you have to get it right going in and you have to get it right coming out. And you'll just get into this psychological mess, you know, where you're overthinking things. I mean, think about what if I told you last March to dump money into the market? You know, you could be like, you're crazy. We have no idea where this is going. And the market just continued to go up. I mean, last year was just a crazy positive year. Yeah. So. And you know, clients were coming. To me, that's what I love about having a financial plan, so that you stick to the plan and you don't get distracted by the markets. One thing I learned early in my career that I absolutely loved it is stuff with me to this day is watching the markets is like watching someone walk up a mountain with a yo yo.

That's a great analogy. I just see the picture. Yep, that's exactly it.

Yes. And like, it's so true. I mean, if you're just watching the yo yo, you're going to drive yourself insane, like, save yourself the pain, you know, and the media is, is they get paid to be sensational. So, you know, it is it more than anything. It's time in the market. And the best thing that you can do if you're nervous about getting in at a specific time is dollar cost average, which is again, going back to the habits. So dollar cost averaging is this concept of if you're putting in a hundred dollars every single month, sometimes you're, sometimes the market's going to be down and you're going to get great price that you're going to buy at grace great prices. Sometimes the market's going to be up and you're going to buy at, you know, more Expensive prices over time, that's going to average out and it's going to give you a nice smooth performance. So, you know.

Yeah. And so for a lot of women coming in and going, you know what? I've always thought this wasn't for me, but I want to build my wealth. I want to give myself the best chance that I've got going through with whatever it is that I have. Where, like, how do you even begin to learn about all of this stuff that is so second nature to you because you've done so much study?

That's a good question. That's a tough question. Because it can be so overwhelming. Right. I'm trying to think. I mean, and then it's even harder when you factor countries in. Yeah.

I mean, I think any education is good. Like, I. I love reading money books. I love listening to podcasts about. I love talking to people like you about it and go. And just starting the conversation as well. I know with my girlfriends, like, we, when we started talking, talking about it and asking questions, like, I was always the one when someone said they bought a new home and I'd go, oh, awesome, like, what was your deposit? What's your lvr? What rate did you get all of those questions. And, you know, some of them were really taken aback and being like, oh, wow, they're really personal questions. But it's amazing since we've started talking about it in my friendship circle over the last kind of decade, how much better our decision making has gotten because we've been able to learn off each other's mistakes and experiences. And I think such a taboo topic for a lot of women. Have you found that throughout your firm as well?

Yes, absolutely. It is for some reason that still it's funny because I find that men can easily and comfortably jump into that conversation. And sometimes, I mean, I don't want to like over generalize because money is one of those taboo things. But I do, I think women are bashful about it. And I think, you know, that conversations like this and starting to be more open about it, everyone gets smarter, you know. Yeah. Just thinking about some resources that I love. So there's a podcast called Animal Spirits that I love that's with Ben Carlson and Michael Batnik. So they are of Ritholtz Wealth Management, which is based out of New York City. What I love about them is they make finance very approachable and they both have blogs that even I get their blogs and I read them from time to time, even just going back to the basics and the fundamentals. So if you're interested in, like, starting to dip your toes into learning more about the markets, they do it in a very casual way. They throw fun stuff in there. Honestly, that's like one of my favorite places to start. It's, it's great because, like, you know, podcasts are so nice. You can listen to them while you're doing anything. But if you're more of a reader, they both have blogs that are super interesting and they talk about, like a range of topics. They talk about market performance, they talk about buying versus leasing a car or buying your house. You know, all those personal finance topics. So I usually just like to go to them, you know, if I'm doing laundry or cooking or something like that. And I just want to dip my toes into what Wall Street's talking about these days.

Yeah, perfect. And so now you've obviously gone from, you know, working with predominantly 60 year old white men to an array of women in business. What surprised you most about working with women in business?

How fierce they are? I mean, yes, like, and the coolest thing is that they all empower me to be the best version of myself. I mean, it's, it's. Honestly, Tina, it's so funny because you can, you have the power to be the designer of your life, but sometimes you just get like, everything's just so conventionalized where you think like, this is the path and this is the only path. And then now I wake up every morning and I love my life and I love my women and I just, I love what I do. And their ability to dream big pushes me to think bigger. And it's this contagious, awesome thing. And, you know, it's just so amazing that we can sculpt our own ecosystem, we can choose who we decide to be around. And especially with technology, you know, how great has it been for us to meet virtually? I know.

Yeah. Well, that's how we met opposite sides of the world in a mixer and was like, hi, friend.

Yes. Yeah, like, how cool is that? And then you're, you're just finding that there is a certain. There, there must be a certain wiring in the DNA. I am finding that there are definitely certain patterns. Yes. Well, I am old.

I live in, in this bubble. Like I told, like, you know, you exist in such a bubble and. But I go, it is nice in my bubble. Like, I want to stay in here because it's literally like, like you, I work with really bold business owners every day. And to me, I go, it's very inspiring watching people be brave and courageous. Enough to have that dream and to just leap into it and step into the unknown and go, well, I want to create something from nothing and I don't know what it's going to be and I don't know where it's going to end up. But I want to serve people and I want to be successful and I just want to give this a shot. Like that is crazy in all the most fabulous ways and I love it.

And the amazing thing is it probably took a shedding of former self in some sense in most cases. You know, there are very few people that were just born out of the womb ready to do that.

Yeah.

I think a lot of people have stories and journeys. Kind of like myself, you know, where my story is.

What's the hardest part been for you? Because you've, you've gone from like a lot of women that go into online business, who I serve a lot. You've gone from that full corporate world where you had this like, you put masses amount of both time and money into your education with this kind of long game view of this traditional corporate life and then left it all to go after your own dream, which I think is fabulous. But what has been the hardest part for you in terms of letting go of that life to go in such a different direction?

The hardest part was the belief in myself. I did not realize I actually had to hire one more coach after my sales coach. And when she got on the phone with me, she said, you have a value and a confidence issue. She was like, you don't have a skill set issue. Clearly you don't have an expertise issue. You're very qualified to do what you do, but you're not growing because you have a value and a confidence issue. And I was like, oh my God. Like I didn't think that I did, but I did, you know, and as soon as she told me that, I was like, I need to figure this out. Like, you're right, I do have a value and a confidence issue. And as soon as I sorted that out, I started growing immediately.

Yeah.

But it took a lot to get there.

Oh yeah. I think it's the most common thing for people because it's going from like, you're essentially feeling like you're selling yourself, which is a very hard thing to do when you haven't done it before.

Yes. And especially for women where they can have that complex of like, oh well, who would pay me? Like, I'll just do it for free, you know. Yes.

Yesterday in going like she's tapped out, she's full, but won't raise her prices. Like, I'm going double it and slow the flow. She's like, no, people won't pay that. I'm like, good, good. If you slow the flow, then you can do half the amount of work and get paid more. And she's like, oh, am I really worth that? I'm like, it's not you that's worth it. It's the value of your information and what you can do for people. And that really takes a lot of, you know, different beliefs, I think.

Yes. I mean, I'm stealing this from a friend, but she said running a business is like personal development with a paycheck.

Yes, yes. Business is a complete mind game.

Complete mind game, yeah.

And so I want to segue into that because I see so much about money mindset, and I'm really intrigued to know from you who's got so much expertise in wealth management. How much do you think mindset has to do with it versus, you know, the tangibles of. Let's not overcomplicate it. Let's just get your amount consistently every week and chuck it into a diversified shares fund.

Okay. So the money mindset is like the power in the machine. Like, money mindset is essential to creating something. The tangibles are about harnessing the power of what you have created. I love that. Thanks. So you need both, right? Like, you need the power to generate the cash flow and the revenue and all that good stuff. You need it to be harnessed and managed. So entrepreneurs tend to be really good at making money. They tend not to be great at managing and protecting money, which is where I come in. So, I mean, there are thankfully tons of money mindset gurus, which is awesome because everyone needs a money mindset person in their life that's really going to be like, the offense. And then what I'm doing is more of the defense, I'd say.

Yeah, that's a good analogy for it. I think it comes up in all sorts of areas because, I mean, I know with mine, like, I. I have always consistently put money aside into. I bought my first property when I was 18, and so while everyone was out playing, like, I just had to pay the mortgage and was like, forced savings for me, which worked, but I went through Most of my 20s completely broke. Like, no spare cash whatsoever. And then when I started making money, I would spend it like it was going to disappear real fast. And I even would catch myself saying, I just want something to show for it. Like, so much comes in, so much goes out. I Just want to buy something, so I've got something to show for all the work. And I had to work on that massively because I wasn't putting it aside and saving for the future, because I was. So I was really operating out of that desperation, which had nothing to do with tangible money skills, had everything to do with mindset. And then I spoke to Melissa Brown again, who I referenced before, and her trick was to go, every time you want to spend something that you don't need, you have to put the same amount into shares. So if you want to buy that new top and it's $80, fine. You have to put $80 into shares at the same time. So if you're not willing to spend double, you can't get it. And I was like.

Yeah.

So I've done that for, like, over a year now, and it's been, I think, the best little habit that I have ever developed because it's turned me off a whole lot of. Like, even last week, I wanted to buy a new desk chair that I was like, that's very bougie. It was like a $2,000 desk chair that I was like, oh, this is like a boss chair. It was like, custom upholstery and everything. But then I went to do it, and I went, I don't really want to put an extra 2,000 into shares this month. So I didn't get the chair. I was like, I don't want to spend four. So I didn't. And so it saved me a lot.

Wow. You know, what you're referring to is something that my husband and I joke about, which is called lifestyle creep. So, you know, your life gets a little bit better, and you're like, I can do this. I can do this. You know? So we joke about that all the time. We're like, ooh, is that a lifestyle creep purchase? You know, not that we're in a scarcity mindset. We're just aware of, you know what. Why are we buying this? Are we buying this because more money is available or because we really need it? Yes.

I love that. And I think that it's one of the hard things to not do as the income goes up incrementally. Because it's exciting.

Yes. And certainly, like. Like, you need to live your life. I mean, and that's the thing that I work on with my clients is like, it's got to be a balance, you know? I mean, you can't just starve yourself. And there is that adage about, like, saving, saving, saving till you're 65 and then you die the next day. Like, you know there's a happy medium somewhere in there.

Yeah, completely.

So I love women that come into.

Your office and you go, you know what she's got? She's got the mindset stuff kind of worked out. Like she's got it together. What are those kind of beliefs or mindset things that you see the women have that are, that are kicking it up a gear?

Well, I'm always amazed at how big thinking my women are. I mean, they are just like ready to build empires. And they know it. Like they know it. Like they know it. Which is pretty incredible. I will say that they don't always have it figured out. Sometimes that's part of my job, you know, is to help them think through how to strategically be spending their money. I will say that finance is interesting in the sense that when you get it, you get it. So when you get that, when you get investing, like when you get that a dollar makes, makes $3, then you start to think about your money differently. And so an example that I gave in my mastermind was like the big thing for some reason seems to be like a ranch rover. So say you like brought in this amazing. Say you brought in like, you know, $400,000 a year and you're like, I'm going to treat myself like you had an amazing quarter or an amazing month and you have $400,000 sitting on the table and you're like, I'm going to treat myself to a Range rover. You take $100,000, you go to the Range Rover dealership, you put it all into that Range Rover. Typical thing, like you drive it off the lot, it loses 20% of its value. Now that's all gone. You know, what I explained is you could take that $400,000 and put it in the market. And the income that that portfolio generates could be the payments for that car. So rather than buying one Range Rover once that portfolio, you could buy Range Rovers for life. Like that portfolio could generate the income to finance that vehicle and the next vehicle and the next vehicle. And once women start to understand that conceptually they're so much more inclined to make wealth building decisions. So I would say it's something that, like when it clicks for you, it really clicks. And then that's when you start thinking like a wealthy woman. And then that's when saving money doesn't seem like a sacrifice. You're like, I'm investing, you know, I'm. And the other thing is having liquidity, like it gives you options like you have, what you're giving yourself is levers to pull, you know, whether it's investments, real estate and diversification is essential. It's diversification on your balance sheet. And what I mean by that is having like some liquid investments is having some real estate, maybe like some private deals, that kind of stuff. Also, tax diversification is a great mechanism for wealth building. If you can have tax free, tax deferred and taxable assets, that means no matter what climate you're in, like in terms of legislation, you're able to use those levers. And that's the ultimate luxury, right, is having choice.

Yeah.

That's what wealthy people have. They have choice.

Yeah. And that's what went on like when the pandemic hit as well, was going the psychological advantage that people had, that had a bit of a buffer.

Yes.

That didn't have to like act out of desperation straight away, but were able to go, you know what, let's take a beat and figure out what we want to do and where we want to go from here. And I just thought, gosh, there was so many, like, I don't know what the statistics in the US were, but when it happened, the Australian, like all the statistics came out that the average person only had six weeks of like living expenses saved. And then after that they were gone, which for a lot of people they went more than six weeks with no income and with no job and so much businesses like just going down and still going down now and it's going to take so long to recover. So I think there's, there is a massive psychological advantage in, in taking care of your future self as well.

Yes. And I think that, I mean, that's part of the reason why I got into this is because, you know, my parents were super well intended and I had a very nice upbringing, but finances were always a source of stress. And so I was after that sense of peace. You know, that's what I strive for in my life is a sense of financial peace and not having this like panic and exactly like you said in those times, that's a massive luxury. To not be worried about what's coming down the pike six weeks from now. You know, to be able to take a step back and think, do we want to spend the pandemic here or do we want to like go somewhere to an Airbnb? I mean, that's a totally different mindset. And if you're running a business, guess what? Your mindset is the number one thing you should be taking care of. So if you have a padded balance sheet if you have padded bank accounts. It's easier to take care of your mindset when you're putting yourself in that position.

I love it. I love it. Is there any final thing that you want to leave us with to help wealthy women embrace being a wealthy woman?

Oh, I love that. Well, I will say I this is super important to me. So if anyone wants to go to my website, I have an option to book a consultation call. You know, whether or not I'm the right fit, I everyone that comes to me, I help them find the right fit. So if that's of interest to anybody, feel free to visit my website. It's theory planning. T H E O R Y planning P L a n N I n g.com and we've linked it in the.

Show notes below too, so it's there.

You're amazing. I should have suspected that. But listen to me like an archaic times over here. But yes, I think never be shy, it's never too early and if a conversation can help you get to where you want to go, then I'm happy to make myself available.

You're amazing. Thank you, Caitlin.

It's my pleasure, Tina. This has been so fun to leave.

Us with to help wealthy women embrace being a wealthy woman.

Oh, I love that. Well, I will say I this is super important to me. So if anyone wants to go to my website, I have an option to book a consultation call. You know, whether or not I'm the right fit, I everyone that comes to me, I help them find the right fit. So.