Eps 132 Shining on Virtual Stages

Heather Sager. Welcome to her empire builder.

I am so excited to be here, Tina. Thanks for having me.

I know every time I talk to you, I go, I could just talk to this woman all day long.

So. Likewise. Likewise. We have to watch the clock. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I always, like, I try to keep to like 30 to 40 minutes and sometimes I just completely blow out and.

Go, oh, no, there goes my day.

All right, so give us in a nutshell where you're up to doing life and business right now.

Okay, the nutshell thing, right now, life and business. So first and foremost, I am a mom and I have two littles at home, a six year old and a three year old. So my life is consumed with, I wouldn't say arguing, but like convincing, persuasion. I get a lot of communication skills practice at home. So that's a big bulk of my job, especially working from home, balancing that piece. But my main gig, if you will, is I get to coach online entrepreneurs how to get better speaking on cameras and podcasts like this and just get more confident sharing their message in a really strategic way.

Yes. And so we met right at the beginning of your online journey, which I love. You were like, you know, you were this superstar speaking coach, but going, how do I package that into online? And you've just like, absolutely flown with it, which has been so beautiful to watch. How's that journey been in going, getting something that was so offline and then packaging it into the online service that you have now?

It's so fun because right the rear view mirror, we can tell these beautiful origin stories that sound so well curated. And life perfectly led us through these moments, which we can talk about my beef with origin stories later. But for me, my background is quite corporate America, but a very weird subsection of corporate America, where I toed the line in entrepreneurship and corporate. And what I mean by that is I worked for an entrepreneur who built this company that we became a corporate company with, I don't know, 250 employees. We served 2,000 employees all over the country, but we worked with independent doctors. So I work with entrepreneurs all over the country, but I technically worked in a corporate environment. So I have this, like, wonderful toeing the line of that. So I got to learn a lot about entrepreneurship and I taught these doctors sales, I taught them leadership, how to lead and develop teams. And it was really exciting because I learned how these businesses scaled. And some of these businesses were a mom and pop shop with one employee. Some of them, we had 1920 locations, were $30 million businesses. So I really saw the inner workings and the struggles of entrepreneurship. And part of my job was I spoke a lot. I was on stage all the time, persuaded and convincing these doctors to adopt our methodology. So I learned a lot about persuas and I love the idea of speaking. So what's funny is I didn't do speaking coaching before I started my business. I was a speaker and trainer doing a ton of speaking. And I had to coach and teach my team of trainers how to not be technical trainers, but be persuaders from the stage. So my background as a speaker coach was actually teaching other executives and trainers how to do that. And fast forward the online thing, I just knew I had to do something different and be at home with now at the time, two babies. Yeah. So the online thing, when you and I crossed paths, I was still thinking that I would do what I did before, which was train like corporate people how to be more effective and not so boring in their PowerPoints and like I thought I would help them like wake up and be normal and speak. And then I met other online entrepreneurs in different programs and I'm like, oh my gosh, these are my people. And when I would get responses back from clients who were in the corporate life, I cringed because I hated their pace and I wanted, I craved that freedom and the flexibility and all the, you know, generic things we all say about our lifestyle businesses. I wanted to geek out and have these conversations. So I decided like, screw it, pivot. And so when we met, I was pivoting into serving online entrepreneurs from corporate and just trying to figure out like how the heck do I build a website on Kajabi and all of those things. So.

And ladies, she has a beautiful one. It's gorgeous. Yeah. Okay, so I'm like, I want to ask you both about speaking and helping the listeners now about speaking, but also your story I'm so intrigued by as well. So I might stay on that while we are in going what you started with. So you've been going now in the online space two years, three years.

What year is it? Two. I start. Yeah, by the time this airs, I'll be like a full in the online space for two years, the business for three. So I kind of like everyone toggle with it. Started the business, dab a toe, created revenue, serious wear off. And yeah, but, but yeah, I celebrated, I guess my full time two year anniversary was back in April of this year.

So. Yes, and so what I'm intrigued always in the first couple of years is what you start with. You very quickly change that Offer. How have your offerings changed since you began?

Ooh, it's like you birth a baby and then watch them grow. So originally when I started, it was one on one coaching and I knew I wanted to do that. But like, perfectly honest with you, I did not want to do that for very long. I. I was very much in love with the idea of having a flexible schedule. So coming from a life where I traveled a ton in my old life, I was all over. I kind of travel all over the world, speaking on stages. I got a league, conferences, playing conferences. Like, it was fun, man. People would, people would wine and dine me like a mofo when I would travel. And it was so fun. I love that life. You miss it? I actually, I do, I do. I miss a lot of that. However, what I was missing. So at the time, my oldest son was super little, so my husband, like, totally good. They developed a really great relationship while I was traveling. But when I had my second baby, my older son was three and started asking farmer questions about mommy not at bedtime. And he also told his daycare that mommy worked on an airplane. And then my second son was. He was a stage five clinger with me where he was not as in tune of wanting to, like, travel and be away from his bed. He was just not as flexible as the first. So I just realized, you know, I can do the traveling thing, which I love. I love the travel. Oh my goodness. I miss traveling so much right now. Like, oh, it's been terrible. But what I realized was I had developed this narrative in my mind based around the people that I admired in my former life. So there were, there were not very many, but there were successful women in this corporate company higher up at the site. Let me go on a side tangent real quick. The company that I worked for, we grew it and it did so well. We sold our company for $151 million. It was part of that acquisition. And then I got to lead all these international projects to help this company deal in these other companies. Like, I mean, we're talking this pretty fun stuff happening. But the mentors and examples that I saw of other women and just the, even the men executives, they worked 12 to 13 hour days and they were on the road all the time. And I looked at them and I had this flash moment of going, I do not want that life. Even though I'm good traveling and I know I can build a healthy relationship with my kids, I don't want that. And I think deep down that if I would have chose this narrative to be on the road and like, be the working mom thing. I would justify it, but deep down, I would always feel a sense of guilt, even though I shouldn't. I would, and I didn't want that. And I wanted to not wear pants when I worked. So I don't remember what your original question is. I got so excited. But yeah, the online thing, I love.

It because I had the same thing. I had my business from four years before I had my kids. So they've never known any other option. And for me, it was going. When they were little, I actually just wanted to hang with them a lot more. And so it wasn't. It wasn't so much out of guilt, but going, we can design our life for the different seasons that we're in. And then once they hit, like, you're still in the little stage, but once my youngest went to school, they were kind of like, there was all this time to go, all right, now it's my time again. Like, it's such a short window that they're so little. Yeah. But mind you, I'm getting on a plane today for the first time since COVID after our interview. And I'm really nervous about it with all the masks and all the things.

Flew last year on like a one hour puddle jumper up to Seattle to speak, and you have to wear like, you mask it. Right. But my recommendation is bring a straw with you. So that way if you do want to drink things, you can take your mask off. They're fine to take your mask off to drink, but use a straw and just make life easy on yourself, dear.

I'm going to chuck on one of the stainless steel ones in there. That's a great tip.

There you go. All right.

So you started off with your online program. How have you. Because you started off launching, doing.

Oh, yeah. Okay, so now I remember I got totally sidetracked. I love it.

I love it.

Yeah, Sager side notes are like a big thing in my program. People laugh all the time. I have a lot of side notes, so I started one on one. And I knew because I didn't want to do the one on one coaching to fill up my calendar, just replace it. I knew I wanted to ultimately have digital courses, but I. I really struggle with this idea of go out and design the perfect course and then sell it. It's something about me. I'm like, that feels like a lot of work for something that I don't know if it's going to work. So something just didn't click for me. So I Resisted it. And I kept stewing on the idea of, like, what's the course going to be? What's this going to be? And I sat for a very long time in indecision and in action. And eventually I was like, screw it. Let's just do it. So I started with a group coaching program that I live launched. And I am a I can totally fly by the seat of my pants, work on the 11th hour, build as I go kind of gal. So I pre sold it. I had a phenomenal webinar because that's what I do. I teach people how to speak persuasively, Knock it out of the park webinar. I, like, had a 90% sales closing conversion on my sales call. Sold out the first program, and then I had to build it as we go. So we did that. And that was in the fall of 2019. Yeah. And it went exceptionally well. I launched again live launched in the spring of 2020. Like, cart closed the week before the world shut down. So, like, that was a big sigh of relief that I did not have to sell how to speak on stages in the middle of shutdown. That would have been a disaster. So I say I dodged a real bullet on that one. So we just pivoted. A stage is simply a platform to share your message, virtual or in person.

And the thing is, a lot of people had to learn really quickly how to speak virtually, which I think in a lot of sense is harder. When I've done the groups like 50 or 60, it's so much easier to hold people's engagement and entertainment in a room than it is on a screen. So, yeah, I think it's even more needed.

It totally is. And you want to know, let's go on that side tangent for a second, because why that is because people get really frustrated with the virtual thing. But why it's so difficult is because communication happens in more than just the words we say. Communication is our words. It's how we say those words into the body language. And most people don't realize that the words we say is only 7% of what we communicate. 38% is how we say it, and then 55% is the body language. So putting this into context, that all makes sense. When we're the speaker, we're like, oh, okay, I got to get my message apart. And I teach people this, right? You got to work on your body language. You got to work on your eye contact with the camera lens, not the screen you have to work on.

Well, people can't see that. Who's listening to the podcast, but I'm looking at Heather the whole time. And Heather's looking straight into the camera.

Yeah, I'm looking at the camera because I. So here, here's, here's the thing. Most people, when they present, they rely on the reactions of their audience because that's what fuels their energy. That gives them that constant head nodding of, oh, yeah, they're with me. Oh, I'm on the right track. Ooh, pat on the back. Here I go. I'm doing a good job. Most people need that constant reassurance because, I mean, it's good. We want to know that our message is resonating with other people. So what happens is when we're live, we immediately get that. But what happens when we go virtual? It's like a stark contrast of no longer do we have that feedback in the same way. So not only do like, so if, like right now, you mentioned I'm staring at the camera lens, I would have to look down to see Tina. So to see Tina and get that, I'm no longer giving her the gift of eye contact, which improves her experience to make me comfortable. You hear that?

So when I now I feel like I should be looking at you. Hi, Heather. But then I'm like, but what are you.

You do it. It's like we're not talking. It's like a miss. Right? And then think about if you're virtually presenting to a group and you look at the whole group. Well, people don't give body language back to you the same way virtually as they would live. So then what happens is if you're looking at this virtual group, you're then in your head going, are they interested? Wait, are they distracted? Are they scrolling?

Face the whole problem. Oh, my God, they look so bored. Great. Dance like a monkey.

Yeah. And then we go into overreactive mode. So all these head games that we already all have ways it's amplified, but that's what's happening in the virtual front. So now that you can kind of know, okay, wait, this is what's happening. I'm just craving immediate feedback because even though we're communicating as a speaker, our audience is also communicated in the body language they give us. So void of that, we feel like we're shooting in the dark. But that's a big reason why I think everybody makes so much sense.

Yeah.

We all have to be confident what we're talking about. Otherwise that beast in our minds is going to take over and second guessing at every single turn. Are we doing it right do they like us enough? It's like back in high school, like, are we popular enough? Who knows? Yeah. So is that why?

Because this happened to me last week and actually you commented at the same time was I'm filming for one of my new courses, limited launch formula, all about live launching and it's a prerecorded course and I haven't filmed a prerecorded course in 18 months since I filmed prerecorded content. I'm a live girl all the way and. And I find it so much harder to do pre recorded content than live. And is that because I'm like this loser who needs constant validation and feedback?

Probably a couple reasons, but here's some of the things that contribute to that. So if you're anything like me, I am a severe procrastinator where I am a. If you put something on my calendar, that's what prerecorded contact or like a slide deck or something else, I will be like, ah, I have to stew on this a little bit more. I'm not quite ready. I just find everything else to do include every like including reorganizing my pantry, if that, like cleaning my desktop. But if you schedule me a live Q and A in your group or you schedule me a live whatever in the group, I'm like, ah, let's go, let's do this. I will deliver a TED style talk. Like it's going to be good. So some people are wired for that live interaction because they need that like pressure to quote unquote, perform at their best, which we'll talk about that. That's kind of a truth we tell ourselves. That's based in not the best theory we could use. But other people hate the idea of lies because they hate saying things wrong or not like really thinking about what they say. So the idea of recorded there's a safety net that if something goes wrong, they could take it back or delete it. So one is not better than the other. But people have to understand that you're probably wired for one or the other. Doesn't mean that you can't do both. We all need to build both of those skills. But just know which one you do better with so that you can optimize that, get really exceptional at that and then work on the other one. So for you, you're live and part of it is you like the energy of the group. But also it's probably that spontaneity that you have to perform and you rise to the challenge versus, you know, you have that safety net. So it's just kind of the same energy.

Like, I'll go with live. I'm like, I'm there, I'm in the moment, I'm present, I'm right there. Whereas when it's prerecorded, you know, you're sitting there waiting to hit record and you're like, okay, come on. Yeah, you've got this. Okay. Like just. You're talking to. And you've got to really. For me, I've got to really go into that space of going, okay, who's going to be watching this? Where are they at? And them before I can actually do it. Oh, hitting just live is so much easier.

It really, it really is. Because your energy starts out positive from the start. Typically with recorded, it takes you a bit to warm up to more of a natural voice. So I always say just like a quick hack. If you are going to do recorded video, do one, do a burner video, meaning do one to like warm it up. So that way the second video sounds more like you. But that first one, it's like running without stretching. I don't know if that's a thing.

One of my things that I've always done is when I do that prerecorded content to film the first video last. So when people are getting that first impression, it's not my first one. It's when I come back and I'm like, all right, like, I know how much gold is going to be in the future. And I'm like, this is going to be the best thing ever.

That's such a smart trick. I love it.

Yeah, because your energy is different. Okay, well, let's stay on that for a second. So when. Because obviously I work with a whole lot of women who are building online. Online programs, and a lot of that is showing up and being seen and building their personal brand and their thought leadership and getting that credibility, which means sharing their voice. And for a lot of people, they've come from where they've got a bucket load of expertise in their service based business or their corporate world that they've been in but never built a personal brand. And that can be horrifyingly frightening. How do you encourage people to kind of go get over those nerves and show up?

This is such a complicated topic because it's so. It's so personal. Right. And part of it is maybe this is a weird thing to say. There's kind of a rite of passage as an entrepreneur that you have to. You start off strong, you know, you have this awesome credibility. We come in like guns blazing, swinging for the fences. Because we're like, we have experience. We're not just woke up yesterday, decided to work on the beach entrepreneur. Like, we know what we're doing. So we come in thinking that we have to pack all this stuff and kind of prove our back experience. Speaking for myself, nobody knows me in this space, but they have to know that I'm legit. So I would try to like cram all this credibility into every conversation. You don't have to do that. I think what you can do is take some pressure off yourself that if you show up and say, how can I be most valuable for my audience right now? How can I serve them? And think about this, the term value is way overused in this space. So I just want to clarify. Value is not what we determine as helpful information. Value is something that's actually helpful from your audience's perspective. Value is in the eye of the perceiver. So what we have to think about is if we think something's valuable, that doesn't mean anything. The question is, does your audience find value in it? And if we focus on then understanding who our audience is, what they actually need, what they're really frustrated with, what they think would be a slam dunk. Here's what happens when you come in as an expert. We think we need to bring in the college 401 level courses into teaching something because that's what's really going to be helpful, is to give them like all the best of the best. That's not helpful to our audiences because most of them are still trying to figure out the prerequisites to even get into the program. So it is a disservice. It is the opposite of valuable. By making people feel like they're not ready enough or good enough or smart enough to understand the thing that we're teaching. So it's our responsibility if we want to show up. Start building a personal brand, learn the lingo of your audience, honor that, and then translate all your jargon into stuff that actually serves them. So if you just focus on service, you'll find your credibility skyrockets and your expertise will really shine without you ever having to say it.

Yeah. And I think, I think that is the absolute key because, you know, even when I started, so I've got like a thing with social media. I love it because you can connect with it and it opens up a whole world of people to be able to serve and impact and do all of that sort of thing. But if I didn't need it for business I would be a complete introverted hermit and I would never be seen by the world, ever. And I had a really hard time in going, like, choosing the parts of myself I would show and the parts of myself I would keep private so that I kept that going. And what really clicked it for me was going, what is going to be of highest service to people? And if I focus on that, it's the same. When I'm live launching, there's so much, you know, there's so much you. When you're launching, you're out there. By the end of a launch period, I'm like, I'm sick of my own voice. Oh, my gosh. But if you focus on your customers, you're always going to say the right thing and show up how you need to.

I think, Yeah, I think that's what you have to keep coming back to again and again. When you're feeling nervous, when you're feeling burned out, when you're feeling, when you're feeling like those expectations for a launch and it's like stressful because you have to hit your numbers or, I don't know, whatever those things are, whenever you come back and say, why am I doing this? And more importantly, the question I like to ask, this is a really good hack for someone who struggles with nerves. So say you get nervous going live or you get nervous on video, or you have something big coming up. What I typically find is when it comes to nerves, most people are focused on their own story. How am I going to look? I don't like the way I look on camera, or what if I get it wrong? Or what if the technology breaks and all these things. And what you notice is a lot of those, all those questions are me focused. They're all about me. Like, how am I going to come across? How am I going to come across on video? Or how am I going to look and what are others going to think of me? And what happens is when we have any of those negative emotions, we're typically internally reflecting about ourselves, which is the opposite of why we're doing what we're doing. Most entrepreneurs that I've met, they always have some kind of service centric, heart centric mission that they want to do something because they know they can help others. So what I like to tell people is switch your questions. If you're feeling nervous or you're feeling overwhelmed or you're feeling frustrated, start asking different questions. And those questions that I like to do is this redirect of who is coming to watch my life today. How might she be feeling coming into this? What could she be frustrated or scared about? How could she be afraid? Like, when it comes to video, and let's say I do, I teach people how to be more confident on camera and what to say. Maybe somebody who comes to one of my lives is they're feeling like, what if I get it wrong? Like, what if I say something online, somebody grabs that and then attacks me and tells me that I'm an idiot? What if I show up and I make a mistake? Or what if my video breaks? Or they're thinking of all these things, right? So if I start running through this narrative in my head around how they might be feeling, what I start thinking is like, oh, honey, like, I can help you. You don't have to be perfect. You don't have to get it right. You just have to be honest and have good intentions and you have to show up and you have to do your best and own it as you do. And then I start thinking about, like, oh, I can help this person. And all of a sudden, my nerves or my fears or whatever else, it starts directing to kind of like this excitement around. I've done this before. I can help this person and that narrative. You know how people in the past, they're like, nerves are the same physical energy as excitement. And I kind of want to slap those people because they're like, yeah, it's not just as easy as being like, I'm excited, I'm excited, I'm excited. No, you still want to poop pants a little bit. Like, it doesn't. So what you have to do is you have to change the narrative in your head. So that's my pathway that I say, start asking different questions. Start imagining Susie or Shelley or Steve or I don't know, but at least names is what I'm going with right now. But imagine them, think about their narrative and then get excited to help them. And now you've just effectively converted your nervous energy into positive energy and then you go live. Like, I think that's what's really powerful, is when we start focusing on the person. Even if it's a story we create around them, we can work with that. So we just then have to hit go.

Yeah. And so how important do you think it is as course creators to be good at speaking? I'm like, I know the answer to this one.

I giggle a bit because everyone's so focused on writing email and having the perfect social media captions or how to create carousels on Instagram or whatever else.

And Then they are ranking bloody well, though.

Yeah, they are good. Right? But we don't need to be spending seven hours on creating one carousel post. Like, here's the thing, we have skills going into our business and we have to build skills in our business. And I think most people take for granted the skills that we already bring. Thinking like, oh, moot point. It's enough speaking, one of those things. We talk to people every single day. We talk to our spouses, we talk to our kids, we talk to our friends, we talk to our clients, and we just speak as we always have throughout our lives. Most people haven't really taken a communication class or public speaking class outside of something in college. But the shift that I like to help entrepreneurs make is going, you know, when you are in corporate or you're in college and you speak, you're presenting something like, usually the speech is the destination. If I can get the speech done, I'll get the grade. Or if I get the corporate presentation, I'll check the box. I'm done with that workshop or that training or that presentation to the board. It's the destination. Well, when it comes to being an entrepreneur, speaking is a vehicle for your marketing because especially as a personal brand, when you show up and talk about your business, you are the best ambassador for your business. The challenge is most entrepreneurs don't know how to talk about their business in a way that captures other people's interests and pulls them in, I. E. They don't know how to market because we're not trained marketers for most of us entering this thing. So they don't approach speaking as such. So it's not necessarily about the skill of speaking. We all know how to speak. We all know how to talk, I would argue, but speaking is a skill of persuasion, and for me, that is a skill that needs to be nurtured and developed if you want to become an ambassador for your brand. But I think you're your best brand asset. And the more you learn how to use it, the more the better you could be at capturing interest.

I just written that down because I'm like what you just said then. That's your sound bite right there.

Yeah, write that down.

Like, that is good.

I got more where that came from.

Yeah, I loved that. And so, like, on that note too, because I do think you know a lot of people and I've seen you talk about this on your social media and when you do IGTVs as well, is that people that are more introverted will see the extroverts or See the introverts that can learn to perform and go, I can't do that. And discount themselves from being able to sell their business or sell themselves and do those sorts of things and show up because they're introverted. How do you. How is it different for people that are naturally, you know, don't mind the spotlight, and other people that are going, oh, my gosh, people are seeing me right now.

Yeah. Okay, so when you say somebody says they're like, oh, I can't do that because I'm an introvert. Yeah. Let's just clarify. I am an introvert, y'. All. Like, I am an introvert, which most people. It's very much surprising to them, but I know how to turn it on. However, I have a big personality. I got big, crazy hand gestures. You know, my voice. Like, you're listening to this. I have an interesting voice because I've trained my voice to different volumes, different pace, different pitches. Like, I bobble around. Like, my voice is an instrument. I've trained myself to do this. And I don't expect other people to right out of the gate be like, oh, as dynamic and charismatic and crazy as I'm being right now, like, it. I think there's a couple things happening here. So first, we have to acknowledge that statement. Like, oh, I could never do that. We have to replace that with a different question and going, how can I do that in a way that's authentic to me? How can I do that in a way that's authentic to me? There's a. There's a big problem that I see happening a lot right now in the online space. Whereas what I call the entrepreneurial parenting effect, which is we see the big names, that is the Amy Portersfield, the World, James Wedmore, whoever else that we're admiring and following, and we see what they do and we listen and consume all their content. And then all of a sudden, we start saying, well, hey there, or bye for now, or whatever the phrase is that everyone knows how to say things exactly. Like Amy Porterfield, because she's been in our ears for years, or whoever else we follow, right? What happens is we become these little parrots of the people we follow because we think that's what we need to sound like if we want to be successful, or we have to have big energy like Jasmine Star, and be sassy and say, hey, boo, or whatever else.

I think anyone can be like Jasmine Star.

I know. Like, she's her own person. However, these are the models we see, right? And we start. We start taking inventory Going, here's the menu of my choices. Who could I be most like? And we start comparing how we show up to that, even if we're not intentionally thinking about it. We'll say things like, I always joke with my clients and students are like, oh, my gosh, I totally said an Amy thing the other day. Or I totally said a Heather thing. And it's like, all right, that first step is to call it out. But here's what I want you to think about when we ask the question, how could I make that work for me? What we have to ask is, how do we bring our own energy in a way that's compelling for our audience? Because remember how I said before how we speak to people? It's the words we say, which is what most people spend their time on. But it's not just the words. It's how we say those words and our body language to go with it. So what I like to tell people is how you deliver your information. Consider it like a car stereo dial, like on a radio where you have, like, your loudest level and then you have your most quiet level. And in this situation, we're not going to talk about volume in terms of, like, your actual voice volume, but I'm thinking, like, your energy. If you think about, like, your most wild, free, spirited, three margaritas, maybe seven margaritas deep, depending on your style. Like your wildest, crazy, most uncensored version of you. Level 10, you're not going to bring that to any kind of stage in your business. Let's just be clear. But you know what your 10 is of you, like, let loose and then you know, like your most quiet, reserved version of you. That's also not what you're going to bring in your business. It is up to you and no one else to determine what the comfortable range of your dial is for your personality. That means are you going to use funky, weird analogies and stories? For me, totally high on my volume switch, I use totally outlandish things. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. Are you going to use humor? That's up to you. Are you a funny person? Use the humor if you're not naturally funny. Please do not attempt to be funny on a stage. If you are a super serious person, if that works for you, own it. But maybe bring in a little sarcasm sometimes. I think what we have to be very highly aware of is we do not have to do it the same way as anyone else. What's most important is we figure out what's most true for us. How do we bring our part personality on a stage without being Eeyore from Winnie the Pooh. And that's what's going to be interesting for people. People want to know you, but you have to actually bring you to the party if you want people to connect with it.

Yeah. And I think that, you know, you mentioned rite of passage before as well. And I think that has a lot to do with it is testing and measuring and going, getting comfortable enough to step into going. I'm just going to be who I am and that is okay. Like, it took me a long time to go, you know what? I don't wear a lot of makeup. I wear my hair on top of my head. I'm not funny at all. But sometimes I'm so geeky that it can be perceived as funny. And that's really the only time I'm ever gonna get and really embrace that. You know, I'm not cool, I'm not hip. I can't say the words. Like, you know, you mentioned boo before and all that.

I can't say that.

I can't say any of the words. If I was even like, hey, girlfriend, like, I just know that once I really went, you know, we could just use our own language and our own style. That's always what's going to find our tribe and either attract or polarize the right people.

Yeah. Yes, I agree with that. And I think that that's one of the big beefs I have with swipes and templates and all of the plug and play, let's get there faster things, you know, insight. We were talking earlier about my program. So I taught. My program was a group coaching program to start. We made it through the quarantine. I launched it again and then I converted it into a digital course where it was kind of self contained. I had people go through that and I realized that what I was really missing was being able to give people feedback and have people work through it. So I shifted into a different kind of program where now it's a hybrid. It's a coaching program and digital course where they get immediate access to in coaching. And one of the things that I find is so important is people need to understand that to get better at a skill, they cannot copy and paste from another person. They cannot just take Heather's webinar script or Heather's keynote script or Heather's podcast, go to things and then insert pain here, insert deep desire here, insert thing here. Because what happens is to. Have you ever followed directions on your phone where you've had your phone take you somewhere, and then you get there and you're like, I have no idea how to get home. So then you rely on your phone to then tell you, siri, how do I get home? Like, I feel like a lot of us are being sold that bill here on the online space around get the latest swipe or the latest this, latest that to make it easier so you don't have to think. And what I really challenge my clients and students is, look, this is not going to be the easiest program you've taken. I'm not going to be an easy coach on you because I'm going to make you think, think and I'm going to make you sweat and I'm going to make you get uncomfortable. Because the thing is, I don't want you to be a mini version of me or anybody else online. I want you to show up as the fullest, most badass version of you. That's what's going to give you the power to speak and own a stage and connect people like a frickin magnet. So in my programs, we use frameworks, we have some templates and suggested scripting. But I like slap hands for anybody who does a copy and paste because speaking is not a copy and paste thing. Like, you got to work through the struggle to become a better communicator. So I like, yeah, I'm a huge advocate around work it. You gotta struggle if you're not comfortable, you're not figuring out your style.

Yeah, I love that. And then so as we've moved into this virtual world and I think even when things go back to normal, I still think virtual is going to be a whole lot more prevalent than what it was before. What do you think as course creators, like the stages that you should be preparing for getting invited on.

I'm sorry, Tina, hang on one second.

All right, visit from Heather's little one there, which he could jump in at any time.

This like mom life thing, constantly balancing. Okay, so stages that people should be thinking about right now, right?

Yeah.

So what I want to do is have people start thinking about two different kinds of categories of stages to start. So I think a lot of people when they think speaking, their brain goes in one of two ways. Oh, I want to show up on and get comfortable on Facebook lives, or oh, I want to show up on Instagram stories, or maybe I want to do my own podcast like you have here. We start thinking about these ways we want to show up. That's one area. We call that our own stages. And those are a powerful place for us to play. And I would highly recommend that everyone selects at least one virtual stage that they're showing their face and showing up consistently with their voice. I think that's really important. And the reason for that is you need to have a strong body of work. You need a body of work so that people can actually experience your expertise. Because I think that we have this idea in the online space that if you have your funnel set up correctly, you can convert someone right out of the gate, which could be true. But also we need to honor that not all people make purchasing decisions, like immediately. They sometimes need to stick around for a while, as we all know. So having your own body of work, you want to make sure that you choose that. So I think Facebook lives are a great safety net place to start because they're easy and you can show up and do kind of a show, and you don't have to do audience interaction. You literally can just use it as a platform to show up and record a video because most people watch it on the replay later. So I'm a huge advocate of Facebook lives, so I think that's a great place to start. If you don't want to do a podcast or a YouTube channel, start with Facebook lives. But what I think people need to start thinking about is how do we actually get out and get more eyes on our business, more eyes on us? And that second category is guest stages. And that's what I think a lot of people think of when they think, oh, I'm going to start speaking. They think guest stages, but don't really understand why. The goal is to get visibility, to bring people back to your stages, to then be part of your business. So some of those stages, one that I think right now this might be a really weird, geeky one, but overlooked. Did you know that if you go live with someone on Instagram, you tap into their audience? So let's say. So, for example, if I invite you, I'm like, hey, Tina, would you come have a chat with me on Instagram so we can talk about digital courses? If I invite you, quote unquote, on my ig, I actually tap into your audience, and I now have a microphone to your entire audience. So IG, like, people don't really understand that or think that, but you can invite guests with bigger audiences on your quote unquote IG show you have high exposure. So that's like an easy one to start with. But podcasts, for sure, exactly what we're doing here today, podcasts is definitely an area that we should be exploring, especially if our ideal audience are listening to podcasts. And the other one that I love is being a guest inside other people's programs. It's not one that people talk about because typically it's not for audiences of hundreds or thousands. However, when you're a guest inside someone's program or Mastermind, it's a captive audience that has proven to spend money with the person hosting.

And credibility just, like, goes through the roof.

Credibility is high. And also those people are already investing in the growth of their business. And if you happen to be teaching something that aligns with that, their likelihood to invest in someone that they trust is higher. So I find you can have much smaller groups, but much higher kind of conversion rate on your time if you guest speak inside programs.

Definitely. And it builds off the trust, too. I mean, we have, like, in Her Empire Builder, we have a guest expert every month in our Mastermind. You are one of our fabulous.

I'm very excited to do that.

But what I find is when people come in, it's immediately for our whole audience, both in the Mastermind and on Instagram and our wider audience as well, that then sees that person and goes, okay, well, if Tina trusts them that they're the best in the industry, then we're gonna give them that opportunity. And that credibility just skyrockets. It's. Yeah, like you said, I think one of the ones that are really, really overlooked. But it also is a little bit more difficult get. Because it is very much a. Like, you need connections to be able to do that. And that's where all the networking things come in as well. Talking to the right people.

Yeah, I agree. It's the networking thing. I think a lot of people think that getting on to podcasts or getting into courses, it's all about cold pitching, which that's what most people think of when they think of guesting. And I like to laugh. I'm like, I don't think I have maybe one or two. I don't. I've never gotten cold pitch anyone. I don't. I don't cold pitch. I know I haven't had to. I like. And one of the things. We'll be gearing up and doing a lot more of that, But I've done a ton of guest speaking and a ton of podcast interviews, but most of it has been because of my networking.

Yeah.

So it's. I'm already in conversations with people, and then it's like, hey, you want to be on my show? Of course I do. You want to be on My show. Great. I do something called laying the track. And that is you start establishing relationships with people way early, before you ever go for an ask. And you don't build the relationships because you're trying to go for an ask. You build relationships because you actually respect how people do business and you admire their work. And when you do that, I actually find that pitching becomes very effortless.

Oh yeah, completely. Yeah. I've never cold pitched before, but on this, because there might be people like going, well, I want to get on something now. So for the release of my book Million Dollar Micro Business, I had the goal that I wanted to be on 50 people podcasts within a month. And so, yeah, that is a lot. And so we cold pitched out for that because, you know, basically I put on my social media, and this is the thing too is you have to ask for what you want too. One of the things I did was I put a tile up saying, want me on your podcast? And I had a girlfriend call me and go, tina, are you serious? Like you just. So just ask for it. I'm like, well, otherwise people would. I have no shame in asking. It's like, I need to promote the book. I want to be able to share that message, so I'm going to ask. So I put that on my social media. We booked 22 podcast interviews just from that. And then cold pitching out to then get all of these ones that I have admired but I have never spoken to. I don't know them, they don't know me well. And then we're on there. So sometimes all it takes is just, just to ask as well.

You do I just asking. And the cool part is if when you start with your network, when you start by doing some of those easier, they might not be as exciting. It might not be millions of downloads, right? But the more that you do, the more one practice you get where you don't sound like a blubbering idiot. I mean, come on, like everyone, we word vomit a bit when you first start doing interviews. So get that out of the way, right? And then start building your track record, building your credibility so that you have a body of work not only on your platforms, but on other people's before you go out and pitch. So I think like, yes, we all want it now. Yes, of course we want to be on Oprah stage now. But if you had that opportunity right now, would you really be at your best? Like, is your message as well defined as it could be if you earned the right to get to that stage?

Yes, yes. 100%. All right, I have one final question for you, and it's more than more on the personal side, because I'm so intrigued at the moment. You're what, halfway through the 75 hard, which for people that don't know what that is, it is hardcore. Heather, can you tell us what it is and why you decided to do it and how you're still surviving?

Oh, my gosh. We weren't going to avoid this. So I'm on day 51 right now.

75 round of applause.

So by the time this airs, I will be done. And it's so 75 hard is A. It's technically called a mental toughness challenge by Andy Frazella, who's, I don't know, CEO of. I don't. He's a very, like, masculine, macho dude. Yeah, he's not my cup. Yeah, it's way intense. It's like skull and cross bones. And I. When I first saw the challenge, I was like, what the heck? So here's what it is. It's a. It's a mental toughness challenge where you intentionally put yourself in hard situations for 75 days to train your brain that you can do hard things. Like, if you put your energy and effort behind, you can do hard things. And it came from him asking this Navy Seal who ran a bunch of like, ultra marathons in 50 days, he was like, how? And the guy was like, put yourself intentionally in very difficult situations and you will become mentally tough. So the challenge is you have to work out twice a day for 45 minutes. Each one of them has to be outside. You have to follow whatever diet you choose, but it has to be like a strict diet with no cheat meals, no alcohol. You have to take a picture every single day, and you have to read 10 pages from a nonfiction book every single day. So there's like a list, six or something activities they have to do every single day and for 75 days. Non negotiable. Cool.

Yes.

I first saw this. Anthony Trucks posted about this in the first of the year. He did the challenge and I saw he lost like 25 pounds. And I was like, whoa. But that's friggin intense. No, thank you. And then I saw a friend of mine on Instagram. She went live and talked about it at the end of March. And I saw that and I was like, wait, she did it? And then I was really intrigued and she started talking about it. So then I listened to this podcast episode and I started exploring it and I had this aha moment of going, look, I'M just probably like all of us, I go through, especially this last year, with quarantine and having a kindergartner doing kindergarten and zoom, which what is that about? And then trying to figure out business and life and teaching people how to speak on stages, which all of a sudden the stages were closed. And all the things, right, where my mental energy and physical energy was just like a roller coaster all through quarantine, where I had really good days, really bad days, and I really have struggled being consistent with routines, being consistent with my health, and I know all the things that I want to do, but for some reason or another, when life would change or I'd get sick or struggles would happen, I'd fall off the boat. And this idea of developing mental toughness or mental resiliency really resonated with me. And it resonated the most because of what I told you earlier. I hate templates and swipes and really prescriptive formulas. So anything that I'd ever tried, they tell me what to do. And I don't know about you, but as an entrepreneur, I hate being told what to do. I take a course. I'm like, I'm not going to follow your step by step. I'm going to do it my way. So this program, while it sounds very prescriptive, it actually was very fluid around. You have to figure out what you're going to learn through reading. You had to figure out what kind of workouts you're going to do. You got to figure out what diet you're doing and what you're going to stick to. And my whole mantra around this was, how could I develop something that was sustainable? So this was the person that I would become, the kind of person who is healthy, who is reliable. And what I figured out through this whole thing was it's not about mental toughness. It's not about the physical stuff. Although I will tell you this, Momma's looking good. But the thing that I have had come out of this for me is I have developed a level of personal integrity that I have never had in my life. And that means when I say I'm going to do something to myself, not to other people, but to myself, I actually do it. When I say, here's what I'm going to eat today, or here's where I'm going to work out today, or here's my schedule I'm going to follow today in my business, here's what I'm going to learn this week when I declare that for myself, it gets done and Never in my life have I ever had that. I always get stuff done. I'm a high performer, as most of us are as entrepreneurs. I'm really good at getting stuff done, but I was really good at breaking promises to myself, and that's not me anymore. So for me, it's been incredible. I don't really recommend the challenge to other people because it's really insane, but.

I've been seeing it for a long time and going, but the biggest thing, and I am so impressed and so inspired by not only you sticking with it and doing it, but also your takeaways. Like that personal integrity is so big with that element. But how have you actually, like, logistically found the time? Like two 45 minute workouts a day, like 90 minutes plus getting ready. Getting like, that's a couple of hours in your day that you weren't. Were you a daily exerciser before you did this every day?

No. Inconsistent. Probably three or four days a week when I was on. And then I would go probably two months without it all.

Like the huge time commitment for the, for the food preparation, for the exercise, for the reading. How have you done that? Okay, this has nothing to do with.

That, but I'm like, I know, but I'll tell you, my life principles are pretty consistent. So remember earlier when I was like, hey, introverts, stop asking the question like, oh, that couldn't work for me. The question is, how could that work for me? That is my life's mantra. So for me, again, what I wasn't going to do was I wasn't going to pick some complicated, crazy program that set me up for crap. And side note, business lesson here. Same thing. Like, we can't go design all these crazy complex plans to have posting on social media four times a day or having five YouTube video goes out. Like, we can't make it complicated. We have to say, how do we make things simpler? So for me, I started out by going, all right, let me do, I used to be a runner. Okay, I'd like to get back for running. What if I did a run and then my husband bought me a peloton for Christmas?

Oh, I love that we can't get it in Australia.

We'll have to talk about that later. Big backstory around how he and I argued about that peloton and then he surprised me with it. But so I had that. So we built. Because of the quarantine, my husband is huge into health and nutrition. He used to go to the gym every day. And because of quarantine, we built A home garage, gym. So we have weights, we have the peloton out there. We have. He's got a squat rack, all these fancy things that I don't use. So we have that built out there. So I'm like, I know I can work out in the garage. And originally started out running. And then after day three, I'm like, there is no way. So I said, okay, what's something that I can do that I can maintain? And I decided to walk. So my outdoor every single day is a morning walk. And I have to wake up early before my kids wake up, before my husband wakes up. Otherwise it won't get done. I made the mistake the first week of not doing that, and it was crazy. But I wake up at 5:15 in the morning, and by 5:30, I am out the door on my walk. And that walk is also where I put an audiobook in my ears. And I'll tell you this, I'm on day 51. I have listened to nine books in the last 51 days. I have physically read seven books in my 10 pages a day in the last 51 days. Every single day I do that. And I keep my food simple. I eat similar things every single day, but nothing is overly fussy and is taking extra time. The one thing for me that has been the challenge. Like, huge challenges. Oh, I didn't mention this. I have to drink a gallon of water a day. So I like pee all the time. That's the big one. So a gallon of water a day. But the big one has been ending my workday to go get my afternoon workout in. And that, that challenge, it means that probably half the nights we have been, my husband and I both been working out in the garage and the kids are watching Mickey Mouse class. And so I've compromised and said, you know what? We're eating dinner late because mom has got to work out, and we're doing screen time tonight. And that's fine with me. So we're making it work. But what I've realized is it's not that I didn't have the time. I was just filling it up with other things. And now that I am prioritizing the time for those tasks, I feel better. Mentally, I'm doing better. But then also we're not spending time doing other things that really weren't important.

What are you going to do when it finishes?

That's the big question. So actually it's just like whole program that there's a bunch of stuff that you can do after it. But I don't really have a big interest in that. I'm still kind of figuring out exactly what I'm going to do, but I don't actually see a huge change coming after. Like, I love my morning walks. I also have a really good rotation. So I'm doing strength training four days a week. I do my peloton. I rotate a bit. Another four days. Like, I have like a plan where one day a week I take off and just do yoga, but I'm going to do my walks and I'm going to do my workouts every day. Like, that's not going to change. I'm going to drink water. I'm not going to take a progress picture every day. That's probably the thing that's going to go away. I don't need that. I have this weird folder on my phone of me and my underwear.

Like.

So that'll probably change in 20 or 30 years.

You'll find those photos and be like, look at me.

The big question is, am I going to post them online so by the time this episode air, you guys can check out my Instagram and actually see my results because I am like 95% positive. I'm going to share. I'm going to share the pictures. Well done.

Oh, thank you for sharing that personal part as well and all of the other goal that you have. Now you have an evergreen course, so it's available at any time. Where is the best place for people to go and look you up and get stuck into getting better on stages?

Yeah. Thank you so much. So if my, like, my style today around this concept of speaking and the fact that you were all speakers and that we need to show up in our business in a more confident way and especially if you're thinking like, but what do I talk about when I get on camera? Or how would I even approach getting my messaging down to be on podcasts or to really own those live streams? That's really what I hear a lot is like, but what do I talk about? How do I have the right message that actually helps my business grow? So I think the best place to go, I have a free on demand training that you guys can go watch right now. It's called how to nail your message on podcasts, live streams and other virtual stages without questioning your content or constantly second guessing what you're about to say. So if that's something that resonates with you, you can grab that right now over@heathersager.com speak and that's where you get the training and find out all the details about my program, which is available for entrepreneurs to not only learn the art of speaking and learn how to build a signature talk, but actually practice it and get feedback and level up the skill of speaking.

I love that. And for everybody listening, I asked this question of everybody at the end of the podcast and most people would just say, oh, heathersager.com speak, you guys. That's how you do a pitch. Like, see how you just wrapped it up all neatly? If this is for you, if you're this type of person, if this resonates, this is where you go and this is what we can do. That's what people learn from you and you, you talk.

That is exactly what I do. What we don't do is give you a list of 17 different ways that we can connect.

I love it. Thank you so much, Heather.

Of course. Thanks, Tina.