Her Empire Builder Show: Lessons in Leadership with Cathy Burke - EP236

My gosh. Okay. I have the wonderful Kathy Burke with us here today. And when she came on the screen, I will share. I nearly cried because Kathy has been instrumental in the turning point of my life. I am nearly 40, and I can pinpoint. I feel emotional just talking about it. I can pinpoint the entrance of Kathy Burke into my life. And that was the biggest shifting year that I have ever had. And I think you have made an impact on so many people, but I doubt you would ever know the enormity of that. So we're going to talk about that. But, Kathy, welcome to the female course creator show.

Darling, I love you, too.

Oh, I just. I just. Okay, I'm going to start there so that I don't, like, open a story and then. And then not close the story. So I first met. Met Kathy in 2012 when I went on business Chick's first leadership and immersion tour to Uganda. Yeah, was Uganda, wasn't it? I'm like, is it Kenya? No, it was Uganda with the hunger project of which you were the CEO then, which was pretty plenty impressive that we got to have you on our trip. And for me, it was. I had been in business for eight years. We just started franchising. I was in a really tough place going, what have I done with my life? I've put all of my money into it. We were losing our house. All of this was happening. I had no money and feeling very sorry for myself that I had worked so hard. And it was all looking like it wasn't going to pay off. And I didn't know who I was, who I wanted to be. When I grew up, I had these little children. I was having this existential crisis.

And then you got me on a bus.

And gave us probably one of the most harrowing weeks of my life, which was the greatest thing that has ever happened. And it changed everything for me after that point. So, first, thank you for giving a bit of your soul in that trip. What was that like for you doing those small groups? And how long did you do those?

How long did I do them for? I did them for years and I loved leading them because that was my personal first awakening also. So I was invited to step up my leadership in behalf of an issue that didn't get much focus, which is world hunger. And particularly for women who had very little visibility to. To make a difference in some way. And similarly to you. I was like a young woman, a young family. Hadn't quite seen the similarities till now. Sort of ended up. And I went to Ethiopia and it Wasn't that long after the whole Live Aid famine situation. And what I saw just, just seared, seared my heart. And I thought I need to do something about this. But I'm just like an absolute dag. Still am, but from Perth. A young family never saw myself as like a leader or you know, ex punk rocker. Like you know, what can I do? And it's been unraveling that thread of expanding the what can I do piece and constantly overcoming my own like self imposed limitations. But also we do live in a, you know, a cultural patriarchy that has women's voices be diminished. Anyway, my own family background I needed to overcome and step into expanding my own leadership on behalf of something greater than myself. And so that. That pivotal moment and I was led by the incredible Lynn Twist who has. Was the author of Soul of Money. So I really recommend if you haven't read it Tina, but your listeners to get the Soul of Money with Lynn. She's like a constant avatar, this like leadership transformation avatar for me. And she held that space for my own sort of midwifing into a greater soul, a greater sort of self. And then, and then I create. Just wanted to create that space for us because we, we work hand in hand with solving global issues. Like the more that we step back in the sort of the financially richer areas by thinking we can't do anything, we dull. We're. It's also, it's just not true. So it's like speaking about our truth. So yeah. And then so I was doing, doing them for a while and then partnered up with business and we ended up doing like probably 10 imagine the ripple.

Effect that you had from even that. I mean not to mention we'll get into like all of the other work that you have done too. But the ripple effect from that, I mean, I know like I was feeling sorry for myself going on that trip and I remember one of the nights we'd had a particularly difficult day there and the hard part was going like we can't even begin to make a difference in this world. Like there are so many problems and so many different things and so many inherently ingrained things that we can't even begin to make a difference. And you did like this two hour, I want to say speech of going here's how you can do it and here's how you can reimagine what's possible. Like that that line for me stuck with me forever in a day. And I committed after that to make it bigger than myself. And we have given so that was 11 years ago now that we went on that trip. So we've given 4% of top line revenue ever since we funded all of the microfinance loans. We're currently funding nearly 50 girls through school in Kenya and have started our own foundation to do that. And that is all because of you.

Well, Tina, that's just great.

Yeah.

Stepped into the moment. I mean, Mary Oliver talks about that, the beautiful, like profound poet and she talks about keeping your appointment with life. And most of us don't show up to the appointment and you showed up to the appointment and you've kept it and you've, you've kept living it in the way that is true for you. So.

Yeah, well, I think, I think a lot of it at the, at the start was, well, what difference can I make? Like, it's never enough anyway. And I still battle with that sometimes. So what do you say to people like in this, in this day and age that we're living in, where, let's be honest, at this moment in time, I mean, nearly every moment in time, you can pinpoint the world going to hell in a handbasket. But there's a lot of things happening that the feeling of hopelessness and defeat that can come over us in what difference can we actually make? How do you, because I know you, the current work that you're doing too, still links with that in how do you help people to go, you can step into your leadership and you can still make that difference, no matter how small that can feel.

Yeah, well, I. Part of the truth about myself that I've stepped into, Tina, is owning the, the space that I am to give people hope for the future. So when I, when I kind of distill my sort of central thing, it is about creating that, that space because I think, and I mean active hope, not the hope of like thoughts and prayers or gee, I hope it turns out, or hope my strategy works or, you know, I hope the client rings or I hope peace emerges in this, in this area. But that sort of like, act of hope and like, where it's a discipline. Maryam Kaber, the amazing black activist in America, talks about hope being a discipline. So it's like, it's. So firstly it's recognizing that it's. That it isn't. It is an action, it's a stand that you take. It won't just sort of happen to you. And I think the way that I've managed to navigate it over the years, because I've certainly had times when I've been in villages and I've really felt incredibly hopeless and have come back a few times, have spent, besides doing trips, would spend. Spent a lot of time, particularly in India and Bangladesh and different parts of Africa, helping like, design programs, run programs, set the set, support the teams on the ground doing stuff and really learning my. Myself and, and coming back and a couple of times in particular just felt so numb and, yeah, yeah, I'm all right, it's fine, but just didn't really care. And so what I've learned over the years is firstly to start to notice that numbing in myself and in others and then seeing what is the story I'm attaching to that. Which is why I do so much work around mindsets. The work of the Hunger Project is deeply steeped in mindsets. And mindsets really are the beliefs and the stories that we have about ourselves. I can't do this. This is not possible. Like, in a village, people would say, allah has deserted us. I'm just a woman. No one will listen to me. So it's like this story, or with the story we tell about something else, like the government's terrible or, you know, whatever. And so it's being able to unpick the what's happening from the story I'm telling about it, and then looking at that story, and it's like, is this story enlargening my life? Is this story giving me sort of some space to grow, even if it's, like, painful? Or is this constricting me? Is this constraining me? Is this feeding into the small? Cathy. Is this sort of numbness, this stepping back? Because then with that comes cynicism, resignation, despair. And so it's actually sort of feeling into and recognizing what's happening and then choosing, even with this, what is that? What is the thing that's going to enlargen me? Because I'm also. I'm someone who's not going to step back. I'm not just talking about world issues. Even in my own life. I get stuck. I get. I feel despair. I think, oh, my God, what am I doing? Or, you know, so it's as Mary Oliver said, keeping that appointment with yourself, keeping yourself on the hook for.

I do think, though, you must have an abnormally remarkable capacity to hold more than most of us. Like, I look at it and go, even before we hit record, I'm in Palm Springs at the moment, and you asked what I loved about Palm Springs. And part of what I love is it's almost like a fictitious world that I come to where it's like the Truman Show. Everything's happy. And it's like you can pretend that the world is for a moment, blue, crisp guys and perfect, happy people and poodles everywhere and everything going on. And you were the CEO of the Hunger Project for a long time, and you went back in like, you were so involved. You weren't CEO in the sense of sitting in an office, like you were in and out of the field constantly in and out of programs. Like, every time I talk to you, I'd just go, wow. Like you. And you held people watching you with people with their pain. It was just remarkable that what you can hold for that.

How.

How did you energetically deal with all of that? I mean, I watch Hallmark movies as well because I like to escape from the reality of the situation. I can go in it. But then it's heartbreaking when you actually sit in the inequalities in the world. How did you hold it for such a long time?

Well, I think we need to like, discard like a binary thinking. Like, there's the Palm Springs thing, or I need to be, you know, like this. Both things are true at the same time. So that's what I'd. So that's. That's what I like. I live in, as, you know, up here in northern beautiful Byron Bay in Paradise or in the. In the Bogan hillbilly hills behind beautiful Byron Bay. So it's being able to hold both things. So beauty. The jacaranda trees are out at the moment. It's just spectacular. And then opening my heart up to. What's that? You know, what, what. When we're recording this now, what's happening in Gaza and Israel, for instance, it's like we've just had the referendum and I. You know, so it's. It's. It's actually being able to hold both. And I. My form of escape is fantasy novels, science fiction, fantasy novels. I love that shit. So I love just like zoning out and like, reading that. I really enjoy it. So, like, I don't feel guilty about it, you know, I just think, you know, I love just lying around my, you know, thing that I love to do is lying around eating mangoes, having sex with Steve. Like, that's true. Whilst also showing up.

Like, I, I don't. It was a long time ago, so I don't know if you remember, but there was one night that Christine Core and I were sitting there and we were sobbing.

That's fucked.

Yeah. Christine got real mad. She got real mad and we got. Because it was unlike anything that We've really seen like you hear about it in a really conceptual way but to be there sitting in the dirt in the huts with the other and just is just so unfair and so heartbreaking. And we were finding it really hard to deal with that. You were in there, you're going this is not helpful to anybody.

Like schooled it.

Which I kind of think you're still doing now. And I'm like I need more Kathy in my life. But it's. I was looking at you there and going like you see this every day and you weren't desensitized to it in the way of dealing it with it but you were able to open yourself to it and be there and be really present but also go me crying about it and sitting there feeling hopeless isn't going to help the situation. What can I do to make my small little part which is remarkable?

I don't know Tina. I mean I think too you cherry picking the good bits or I mean I've had plenty of time and I think that sort of anger and tears. I remember when Ethiopia I was. But yeah probably similar. I was crying in a hut going this is terrible. This is. We've got food, we've got thing we didn't give anyone. And Lynn Twist just came in like this sort of like pin drop and she said that wouldn't help. You would only do that to make yourself feel better. Yeah. And that's not what this is about. You need to keep your promise to these people and go out and take action to end hunger. Like she just wasn't there for any of our. Yeah well just aligned. It was like the magnet just that just aligned me and then I led led my life out of that. And in fact I mentioned Lynn because when I left the hunger project so I was. Was a full on volunteer for five years and activist leader. You know I asked people for money the first hundred dollars I got. I was just so amazed that someone would do that. Then I like leveled up to a thousand and someone gave me a thousand. I just thought this was just amazing. Went up and up and I ended up being going on stuff and then being asked to be the CEO and which I felt totally ill equipped for. I even said no at first because you know just little Kathy. I think I had some story about something, you know like oh we don't do two hierarchies in Australia which is obviously complete bullshit. But it was like a little Kathy. And then, then the, the bigger Cathy had to come in and say yes. Even though I feel Ill equipped. I don't quite know what I'm doing. I can work out the next step and live into that grace. And so that's what I've just sort of kept doing, really.

Yeah. And so what, what caused you to leave six years ago?

Well, so then I was on staff of 20 and I was global vice president as well. Something really changed for me, Tina, when I wrote my first book, Unlikely Leaders. And that. That. Yeah. And you, you. I think you're even at the book launch or anyway. Yes, I was. Yeah. Yes, you were. That's right. It was so like, it was getting the stories out and just that. So something changed me with that. I loved leading the programs. I just love waking us up. I just. And then I also, I think back to this because I now coach other leaders. I coach sort of entrepreneurial go getter women. And I wished I'd had me. I didn't have someone, I didn't have me or a version of me then.

Yeah.

And I, I allowed things like my relationship with the board and I felt like dominated by them. And I had. I can see that what I had started to do was to shape my leadership around approval. Not so much. Do you approve of me? Because it wasn't about that, but just I became, it became so mainstream, Tina, and my energy and it didn't need to be as well. I co opted myself into that space that actually where I come alive is that, is that frontier, that edge. And every time we went there as an organization, we expanded.

Yeah.

And there'd been two times previous where I'd taken time out to like, like three weeks or something. But to reconstitute my relationship to my own leadership. And I didn't do it. After the 20 years I felt like I was done. And then I wasn't prepared necessarily to do that work. And I was also being called to do what I'm doing now. And it was so amazing. Like so many people rang me up, Tina, after I'd taken some time off and like, what are you doing? What are you doing? And I told them and they're like one word in particular. She just does like silence on the end of the phone and she's like, right, so you're stopping like making this like big global impact to be a pause consultant. And I just made me smile on the inside. She was just so judgy. Yeah. And I just thought, but look at.

The impact with every individual. Like it's so there.

I've made my global impact. I get that. But like, yeah, we have to Live our life with where our energy is calling us. Right. And for me, and I particularly had seen this, that we are, we do, we do struggle here and I don't believe in first world problems. I. We're anxious, we're struggling, we want to make things happen, we want to live as fully as we can and why shouldn't we? And that's where I'm drawn. I mean, I'm still, I'm writing a book with my colleague in Bangladesh about how to. How he created this movement of women who like to have taken over the. Yeah, so we're doing that, you know, as I'm doing stuff, you know, doing things in different areas. But yeah, I just thought, actually I don't, I don't need to prove anything. But also I just love awakening and help standing, walking side by side, people who want to increase their impact and wanna.

And so I want to talk about soulful leaders because that's what you're running now. Now in my, in my up to date research of you that I did.

Yeah.

Because I'm like, I only know you as Kathy from the Hunger Project. So I'm like, what is sou lead is all about? Now I'm going to bring this up because I giggled at your sales page, which I don't even know if you remember what you wrote on your sales page. But one of the. It's not for you. If you're looking for a chillaxing escape, you're not really up to much. You're not prepared to let your facade down. You're only in it for you and not prepared to support other women in their greatness. And I was like, that is so.

Cathy, honestly. Is it though? I think that's quite. Is it? Oh, okay. I didn't realize. I just.

Yes, you were very much, you know, you work with a lot of women who are achievement driven, who are very impressive, who are very used to not having to. But very used to having a facade up and used to having that as part of your armor and part of your life. And yeah, I did read that and go. You know, it is what you would do immediately, immediately with a group of women is disarm them and go, all right, drop it now. Like, we're all humans and you are just as important as the woman over here. And the woman over here is just as important as like, that is so you like, you can break down a barrier of women from all different types walks of life. Yeah, that's, that's very good. About soulful leaders.

Well, soulful leaders is one of the programs that I'm running. So, yeah, I left the Hunger Project and then I took like a. Nearly a year off. I went to the Amazon jungle with Lynn Twist. So I kind of went back to my. My. My lineage of I'm not a religious person, although how have I managed to do different things? I have been meditating, Tina, since it's now like nearly 35 years. So I have like a daily practice. So that's definitely like helped.

35 years. How many days do you miss?

Not many. Not many. But sometimes it might just be 10 minutes.

Yeah, I. I get about 10 years. I get probably four or five days a week. I still, I still have never done like the. Every single day. And I'm still always disappointed going, come on, you're so close.

And so I never feel like I.

Can say I'm a daily meditator.

Holy. Yeah, but that's also you. You're so such. Achieve. Achiever. Must be in your top five Gallup strengths.

Is it any number one three, the achiever.

Yep. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like got that list off. Yeah. Whereas I'm much more. Yeah, I'm more in the. Yeah, yeah. It's just I don't have a, like a thing about it.

Yeah.

Yeah. So I went there. I did an ayahuasca ceremony with Lynn under the.

How was that?

Under the. Like, literally in the Amazon? It. It was. I mean, people don't know what ayahuasca is. It's a psychedelic that we were in with the Ashwa people. There's a whole thing we got flown in.

Did you like actually do ayahuasca in the Amazon?

Yeah, like lying on banana. Lying on banana leaves with this shaman whistling and at me and flicking leaves at me.

I'm not even surprised, though. A lot of. A lot of my business friends that I know have been talking about business planning with psychedelics and mushrooms and it's.

A whole new world. Yeah, I'll talk to you offline about this because I'm actually also on the advisory board for Mind Medicine Australia and they've been really key to he in getting psychedelics. Well, psilocybin and MDMA legalized for therapeutic use for. There's heaps of evidence for, you know, anxiety, depression. Yeah. PTSD and stuff like that.

So you did ayahuasca in the Amazon jungle. We'll go back there.

I did that. And then, then the use of mushrooms and things has just been transformational for me as well. But maybe we'll talk about that offline. Ye. Yes.

We could talk about so many things. I'm like, I could take you down that rabbit hole because I wanted. I haven't had anyone talking about that.

Yeah, I'm happy to talk. Absolutely happy to talk about it. Yeah. Yeah.

So what was the result of doing that for you?

Well, the Amazon one was. It was part of being there. Looking at the. Protecting the sacred headlands of the Amazon from logging incursions. So mobilizing people around, that. That's why I was there for that. That wasn't transformational for me. But. But doing. Doing. Yeah, because it is. It is. It's not legal in Australia. I'm just putting that in there. But you can go to other countries. But it's. It has been. Even with my life, it's completely changed my experience of being alive, Tina, which was already. I was already pretty alive.

Yeah. Yeah.

My ability to be present and.

Yeah, it still freaks me out. I've never. I've never had a drug in my life.

I've never. Yeah, well, it's not even nothing. It's not recreational. It's all about set and setting. You do it consciously, there's a guide. It's not something you. Yeah. I mean, in my experience, to do it therapeutically. It's not something you just like, take a handful and sit out in the back lawn and.

Yes.

You know.

Yeah. So you did that in the Amazon. What did you do for the rest of your year off?

Well, then I. I also then went and studied with Werner Earhart. So he's. He created the S. Training and Landmark Forum, like in the 70s, 80s, and he also set up the Hunger Project. And he. I've actually never met him. Did Landmark Forum, which was absolutely, epically transformational for me when I did it as a young woman. And then, of course, the Hunger Project. And just the rigor of that, thinking around what's possible and not. Not setting. Settling for what's kind of expected or what's reasonable, but actually what elevates us, what represents us as who we can be. So he created that for the, you know, the world in terms of ending hunger. And that way of thinking is just still so with me and that the work that I bring now with women is elevating, you know, who. Who are you really and what. What are you capable of? Are not necessarily more goals to hit up here. Absolutely. But also in other ways. So I spent time with him. I did a course with him. Yeah. I just. I did like a deep dive. I felt like I needed to nourish myself. Intellectually, spiritually, emotionally. After 20 years on staff at the.

Hunger Project, I love that most people when they took a year off after being a CEO of a global company for decades would like vacation. And you were like, we went into this logging thing. I went and explored hunka. Like it's still. You're just amazing. You're like, no biggie. Just trying to end world hunger.

A lot of times getting out on the grass and listening to music and journal like thinking and seeing bands and, and actually like I thought it would be like three months and then it was six months and it was just over nine months basically. And then I created, kind of stepped into the world of consulting people.

Yeah, consulting, yes. And now you've got your online programs going. So what does, what does life look like for you now?

So really relaxed actually. So I, I've got much to teach you about this, Tina. One of my favorite sayings, and it was even true.

I'm ready to be taught.

Yeah, yeah. Is how beautiful it is by Anonymous, who is like so wise. So the saying is how beautiful it is to do nothing and then rest afterwards. Oh. So I've, I've kind of lived that in my life. So even though busy with the family and stuff, I also, yeah, I, I had a lot of time like. Yeah. So my thing is around. So I do do work with organizations around mindset and culture and sort of the thinking and beliefs we're bringing to our leadership, our, you know, work that we're doing. I've just done a whole series of work with Google across North America and Europe, mainly looking at sort of mindsets that they're feeling about despair and resignation. They've had some, you know, cutbacks and layoffs and stuff like that. And then I work with organisations in Australia, a lot of them disability, social services based, who are really committed people, but not a lot of time. Budget cuts. And so what we tend to do is then how do I fix it out here? And I'll just, you know, but, but actually without addressing the beliefs that we're having, which is like it's, it's too hard and the scarcity mindset's a really big thing, Tina. So I've sort of done heaps of work that, that's been like a big piece of my work is helping people name the scarcity mindset, see it and kind of separate it from, you know, you can be in a situation that's difficult and hard, but you don't have to have the scarcity mindset overlay on it. So what is the mindset you then create and where are your true resources and how do we liberate them to overcome the scarcity that we face? So that's a big piece of work that I do. So do that. Yeah, I love it. I'm just like a little fairy that just sort of wanders around when people need it. And then I do run programs for women. So Soulful Leaders is the. I just. I've got this little group of women that I meet with regularly. We kind of meet like every quarter for sort of three days or so. And they're like, you should do this. And I'm like, really? I wonder if anyone would do it. My own mindset. So I'm always working on it. Yeah, people want to do that. They're like, yes, I'll put it out there. So basically that's working with. So women come up here to Byron once a quarter to work with me for. Work with me and each other for a day. So it's essentially like on businesses, but it's not like, bring your business plan, like, and your. It's not an accountability circle as such. It's looking.

Not like the sessions that I run.

No, that's strategy. Let's get your plans. But you need that. You do need that. But also, increasingly women have that. But. But especially as we get into, like the midlife, sort of. Sort of mid-30s onwards, we move into what's. What we call the second phase of life. And the first phase, we're answering questions of what does the world want from me? How do I be successful? Have I got a partner? I need to pay the mortgage? Like, we're dealing with the world as it presents itself to us, and we need to do that. We need to get that shit sorted. But then increasingly, questions of meaning come in, questions of soul. Like. Like, what's. What's my soul asking of me? We. We like what? I've got this. But it's less fulfilling. Like, what. And then we often then try to do more of what we're currently doing. And so we just come together and we talk about what's your second phase of life wanting from you. What's. What's cool. And I just have a whole series of questions, just different ways to look at how you want to live your life. And then the women are coming out of it. Like, then they can apply that in their business, weirdly. Not. Not weirdly. And they're just more available for their clients. They're. They're offering, like, they're creating this different space for their Team their different thing with their relationships that is easier. There's more flow.

It is something I see all the time. Like, so many of my clients are in their 40s and 50s and for a lot of them it's the second. It's like the second chapter in going. Like they've had really successful traditional businesses, really successful corporate careers, but are coming in with that. Like, I want more purpose and meaning in my life. And it's, it's the confusion around everything that's driven me to this point. I don't really care about anymore. And I'm like, that's confusing. And it's like, what happened to that? And so many.

Yeah.

It's like, have I lost my drive? Have I lost my ambition? Like, am I ever going to get it back again? Or do I just simply not care? Like, I hear that on repeat. Yeah, yeah, that.

That's the second stage of life. Questions and the. And they, they. It just keeps butting up until it's, until it's addressed and then incorporated, included. And maybe your life will take a different direction as well. But actually what we find, what I find is, is that we need soul. Tina. Like, there's a really great distinction around spirit and soul. So we're very spirit driven. So it's like clear vision, light, ascension. But we need the fragmentation, the bringing together the bits of us that we might have thought were not good enough. We disowned, they weren't, maybe weren't approved of. These bits need to come in. It's not clear. It can be a bit murky. And so we tend to step away from that and we kind of keep focusing here. And we need them both together. So we need the spirit. But we. You also need to descend. We need to, we need to sit together in the, in the truth of our feelings, our vulnerabilities. I. That's why I say don't. If you want to keep your facade up, this is not for you. Like, just being really clear because you want to sit together. And I actually don't have it all figured out. Mark.

Yeah.

And it's like, beautiful.

Everyone's going through this existential crisis. It's like, you're in the right place.

Welcome. It's hard. It's you. The questions of soul are getting more insistent and we live in a culture that doesn't address that, talk about it. And look, I grew up Catholic and so even questions of the soul is like, oh, shit. That just feels almost like religious. But. Yeah, so sad. And I'm running a retreat, actually in two weeks time. So this is like a. So it's called the Soul for Women's Retreat. So we're all coming into Byron and we're going to have a fire. This will be record like you people hear about it after this. But we're going to like burn. There's going to be rituals. We're going to like sit together so we're going to like descend but just like in terms of what is what do we not need any net? What do we want? Like what's not. We're going to walk up a hill in silence. We're going to. It's going to be like the. They're all like amazing women but we're all going to be like temple priestesses like coming together. Yeah, yeah. So I. The more I'm more like I have this thing like working with Google, working with this organization, working with these CEOs doing this stuff. But then it's like the older I'm getting, Tina, the more I'm just like let's just getting. Not weirder but real. I mean I'm pretty real anyway. But just about getting older though.

Like it's every year. I think there's. My favorite thing about getting older is caring less about certain things and stepping more into who you actually are.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's not an easy. It's not an easy thing I think for a lot of people. For me.

No. Two weeks ago I turned 60. No, I know. So I went to Uluru. So I've been feeling this portal of.

Happy birthday Kathy.

Yeah, thank you. It was so amazing, Tina. I've been like really working. I hadn't. I've never felt. I feel absolutely fine about being 60 and I don't have any thing around it except for there's like a distilling of like I'm really owning my. What I'm calling my wife Wise, wise, wise, wise woman years. So it's like this. I've definitely been doing the work myself. So have been doing the work and then it's like a constellation of just. Yeah. Anyway I'm loving it as you can see.

What was it you started off going?

I'm going.

I went to Uluru. Like what was.

Oh yeah.

So I did your portal for 60.

Yeah. I wanted it to be. So when I turned 50 I was just traveling all the time. I just wanted bottle of Dom Perignon, a two hour massage at home and oysters and stuff. And I didn't go anywhere except Steve. I just. That was like bliss for me. I had a Big party for my 40s. And. Yeah, yeah, I, I'm feeling very conscious about it. It's like a elder threshold and I, I really own that, Tina. But I also wanted to do. Been like, probably the last sort of four or five months. I've been really doing the work in, in, in, in that. So I feel like it's, it's like Uluru wasn't the portal, although it probably is a portal to extra dimensions. I don't know. But it was just being there for six days and just every day up at, you know, 4:30, walking around, sitting in the dirt, going out to different places.

So then just for you, because you've obviously thought about purpose and life for a really long time, coming into your 60s, what is, what is your plan on? Like, are you going to retire? Like a traditional retirement age? Do you know? Are you going to just see where the world takes you? Like, what is your plan for this?

Oh, my God, Tina, do you even know me? No.

Yeah, that's why I'm asking the question, because I know you'll have a fabulous answer. I'm going to get to 65 and then I'm going to retire and then I'm going.

No. I think this is what's so amazing about how the world is designed for us now. And so many of my role models. Like, I look at Lynn Twist, she's nearly 20 years older than me and she's still doing these things. And Werner, when I did the course with him, he was like 85 or something. Badil, who I'm writing this book with, is running this global movement, countrywide movement. He's 78. I studied with Joanna Macy. She was in a. No, I just feel. No. But I feel much more freer around where do I want to put my impact? If I don't want to work with you, I won't. This organization's like a no. And just like, I want to keep helping build possibility and giving people hope for the future. So even if it's just through my energy, just how I am at a coffee, catch up with someone without doing anything. Like, I bring that, bring that to people with big challenges at work or in their life. And also I'm. I want to keep activating us. We live at a critical time in human history. We want to be awake, we want to be activated. And I think we actually do want that.

Yeah.

It doesn't have to be for a big global issue. It can be to bring more joy and peace into my family, maybe to heal this rift. It may be to make this contribution to others. It may like, I just think, I don't think there's a hierarchy of what we get involved in. I think that's part of the old sort of capitalistic way of thinking. I just think where you're drawn to give your energy is where you should give it. And this is where I'm get drawn to give my energy. So, yeah, where I'm giving it. And then I'll just keep giving it. I'll just keep giving it a hundred. I might move into the nursing home, but I'll still be, you know, on my zimmer frame. Actually, I don't think I will be because I'm, I'm trying to be, you know, I've been, I've been doing like exercises, Tina, so you're going to be really proud of me. I know this, this, this podcast is just. Yes, I've been, I could ask more.

Questions about that, but I'm just gonna let it go.

Yep, yep. Oh.

So to finish. Yes, my last question is for women that are like, I've been head down doing my thing for a long time and I feel that like, pull and that yearning to find more meaning and purpose and, and to activate that little bit more. Like, I know there's a level unlocked for me. What is your advice on how to start exploring that when you've been doing the same thing for such a long time?

I would, when you often it comes as a feeling of sort of frustration, anxiousness, tightness, dissatisfaction. I would be approaching that as like a clue rather than something I need to fix or get rid of or it's a problem to solve because essentially this is part of your, your sort of soul kind of coming through. And the amazing choreographer Martha Graham called this divine dissatisfaction. So to start to see it as like a divine dissatisfaction, like we're meant to keep evolving and growing, Tina. Like, it's just part of, part of our universe. So my first thing is when that happens, just to welcome it in like a friend. It's like, ah, this is, this is what this is. This is actually kind of my soul telling me something. What, what is it? And just start to bring it in, bring it in like a friend instead of trying to like fix it or shut it down or get help for it or something and, and create some tenderness around it. So we, we're tough and women, we've become, you know, we, we, we have these mechanisms and we need them to survive in a, in the culture that we live in. But, but there's a tenderness that we need to start attending to and just to start to feel it. It's a friend. And. And that. That will then be your first creating a relationship with it rather than a something else with it. You might want to journal about it. What. What is this telling me? Or in fact even journal. I don't even use the word journal, though I did just use it then. Because journals or journaling then has to become a thing. Do you journal? It's like another thing we have to do as women. I tend to think about it as like pick up a pen and paper. It's like reflecting using. Using writing to reflect to be thinking about something, something. And then could just be this, like I feel this dissatisfaction coming through. Okay. So that would be the first thing is to start to see it as actually. It's actually part of being alive. It's part of growth. It's part of us women rising into our power. And this is part. It's just telling you to bring this in. There's something that's not yet being attended to and it's tender. So you want to bring.

We can reimagine what's possible.

We could. I give people hope for the future. We can have all of these like, these sort of sayings around. But that. That's what I'd say.

Thank you.

Yeah, that's what I'd say.

I loved getting to talk to you. I will link to all your programs, all your books, all your everything in the notes below. Because you're a woman worth watching and listening to.

Thank you.

Are entering your way. Well, I wouldn't say you're entering your wise years because you were worth 20 years ago. So we'll see what happens.

These are my wise, wise, wise, wise, wise woman years.

Not just really wise years. Well, now you can kind of like I was talking to someone the other day in going, I've always been this. But in my 20s, my like giggliness and happy. It came off as. As aloof and airheady. Whereas now people say I really love your energy. But it's the exact same thing that I'm like each decade it's like you get interpreted in a different way. So you being in your 60s and being older means now your wiseness is like oracle. Instead of just being wow, she's young and really knows what she's talking about now it's like the priestess.

Thank you, Tina. I love you too.

Thanks, Kathy.