Heroic Chat with Robert Biswas-Diener: Cultivating Psychological Flexibility

Hey Heroes. Today's episode features a mastery level chat with one of our friends and world class experts sharing how they show up as the best version of themselves. This heroic chat with Brian was recorded live in front of a virtual audience of heroic community members and coaches. To learn more about this series as well as how you can join Brian's daily live coaching sessions at 1:01pm Central Time plus get access to a ton more to help you move from theory to practice to mastery and express the best, most heroic version of yourself. Head to Heroic US today and if you like this episode, please leave a positive review and hit the subscribe button wherever you get your podcasts. Now here's your host, Brian Johnson.

Heroes it is 101pm + one today and we have a special guest, Robert, I'm going to mispronounce your name. I apologize in advance. Biswas Diener, who is I got it. All right. I I let him know it's one of my superpowers mispronouncing names. So we were ready for the potential there. But Robert is one of my favorite positive psychologists and teachers. As you know, if you follow along, I've leaned into a lot of his work and I should have the app up so you can see me share it with you. But Robert wrote one of my all time favorite books on the science of courage called the Courage Quotient, which I talk about all the time in our coaching program. And let me make sure I got this online. Give me a second to do that. And in the book as well, Nat give me a thumbs up. Am I sharing that? All right, cool. So Robert has written a number of books including the Courage Quotient which I have featured a book he wrote with his father Ed Diener, who is one of the luminaries or was one of the leading luminaries of the positive psychology movement, essentially founded the entire science of well being with Martin Seligman, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi and they wrote a book together called Happiness which is another one of my all time favorites. He's written another really important book called the upside of your Dark side which I have read, but it was in one of those moments where I wasn't doing notes so I got to go back and do the note on it. But Robert, really excited to connect. Just personally I can feel a kinship with you and excited to shine a light on you and your wisdom and your hero's journey. So thanks for taking the time to be with us today.

Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate the opportunity. And I really appreciate that people are willing to spend their time, which I think is your most precious commodity. So thanks.

Let's go, hero. Aaron, I like to say hi as well. So let me look down and say hi to Jared. Wendy, great to see you. Stephanie. Mike, getting a ride in. Maddie, great to see you. Carolyn, Brian, Anthony, Peyton, Robin, Ken, Jonathan, Lily, Megan, Becky, Christine, Timmy. D, good to see you, man. I'm still buzzing from that chat. Kelly, Roy, Gary, Sarah, and Eamon. On my first screen, we like to flip the switch and just kind of connect to the best version of ourselves. We'll do that real quick. Just grounding our energy and inviting the best, most heroic version of ourselves to join us. Do whatever it is you do, team to connect. For me, it's always the posture, slowing my breath and focusing my mind. As I recommit to living with and we commit to living with wisdom, discipline, love, courage. There's a science to it. Robert's going to tell us about it. Gratitude, hope, curiosity and zest as we move from theory to practice to mastery together to help create a world in which 51% of humanity is flourishing by 2051, starting with us. Let's go. All right, Robert, as I said in the prelude, tell us about you. I like to hear from some of my favorite people and just kind of who you are. What brought you here today? Your heroic quests, Ideally, kind of the origin story and then some dragons that may have been faced, winning and learning it. Just what brought you to be with us today?

That's a big question. That's like saying, tell me your whole life story and all the. The lessons you've learned along the way. Where would you like me to start?

I'd like to start wherever you'd like to start. But origin story, I think is particularly interesting for you. Your father and your mom doing what they do must have been an interesting environment for you that has obviously shaped who you are. I should also say Robert is known as the Indiana Jones of positive psychology because he's traveled to all these extraordinary places to study those populations and bring that wisdom back. I'm also pretty sure you're afraid of snakes. Is that one of the important things we need to know before we get going here?

I'm afraid a ton of stuff. Yeah, I have loads of fears. Heights, airplanes, snakes, spiders, all of it.

Perfect. The upside of our dark side, we'll get to. But however you want to frame it up, would love to hear wherever you want to go.

Sure. I often point to the extent that I have an origin story. I often point to my sophomore year in high school and geometry class in particular. I think most people took some type of math when, when you were in high school. I was always pretty decent at math. I never minded math. I wasn't very detail oriented, but I, I had a head for it. And on the very first day of, of geometry class, as they do in geometry, they kind of teach you the foundational concepts. There are points, there are lines, there are planes. And my teacher said something really interesting. She said, a line has no width. And I just had a hard time getting past that notion. I was like, well, if it exists, surely it has some substance. It has width. And I pointed to the chalk line she had drawn on the, the chalkboard and I said, see, that has width. I mean, it's small, but it's still width. And she said, no, no, that's just a symbol that represents it. But it's really just two dimensional. And don't worry everyone, I'm going somewhere with this story. I'm not just going to be talking about geometry. And I, I just couldn't get past it. I said, look, if it has no width, we don't know if it's one line or a million lines stacked on top of one another. And that seems like a problem if you're going to do math because math is all about really delineating between numbers of things. And in that moment she said, robert, I don't have time for you. Like, like she just thought I was like fooling around or like trying to, to get a ris or distract from class. And I felt like I was really engaged and I really wanted to know about this topic. And it was one of the first moments that I realized that I just kind of have a different view. I don't think my view is better than anyone's view, but I'm definitely not a rule follower and I definitely want to know the why and want to know the deep concept more than I care about the, the details or the processes. And that's just sort of how, how I show up. And that's not how the world is structured oftentimes. And I realized sort of that I was, I think of myself as like an artist who's stuck in the body of a psychologist. And so my journey was often trying to figure out for myself how I can bring the best of that sort of outsider, different perspective to the table, but without seeming like an Internet troll, without dismissing other people's views and somehow marrying what I viewed as a natural talent of myself. But, but marrying it was something that would be effective and helpful for others. And that's kind of the, the path I've been on ever since I failed out of that geometry class.

We wound up failing out of that class, huh?

Yes, I did.

Congratulations. You know, I always love like, word problems. Algebra. Algebra. Guys, geometry was not my favorite subject for separate reasons. Perfect. So then, then give us the more, you know. Well, let's bring, let's bring it back. Origin story. You got to include your parents. So tell me about them, about how that informed and shaped who you are. I know my parents informed and shaped me in my own idiosyncratic ways, but I'm generally curious. As a guy who's now the father of two young kids, I'm just personally curious to hear what that was like to be raised in that environment.

Yeah. So for, for those of you who don't know, my mother is a psychologist and she was Carol Dweck's graduate student. So my mom was the one Growth mindset. For those of you who know Growth and fixed mindset, that was my mom's doctoral dissertation and she and Carol Dweck kind of came up with that idea together. And so my mom was a clinician, she was a researcher. My father was into studying well being. So he was trying to pioneer the science of happiness. And that meant that psychology and intellectualism was the language of our household. You know, I had friends whose parents were librarians and doctors and police officers and, you know, all sorts of other terrific professions, but we just wanted to talk about issues and to argue over them. I was trained basically as a child to marshal strong arguments, which, you know, doesn't always necessarily win you friends as an adult, but it's a good skill to have because it, it means that I can structure my thinking, which I actually think is part of being effective, not just having original ideas, but being able to, to make a case for them. And so I grew up, yeah, just ensconced in psychology. You know, my parents used phrases with us like misattribution of arousal. I mean, that would be like a common phrase around our, our house. All this psychological jargon. I first heard about Marty SELIGMAN probably in 1978 when my mom was explaining learned helplessness to me as, as a child. So I just loved thinking that humans are the most fascinating things on earth. And I, I care deeply about how we think, what motivates us, how we create identity, just absolutely every single thing about the human experience.

Hey, hero, have you heard the news about Brian's Book Activate youe Heroic Potential. Head to Heroic US Book to learn more and get your copy as well as check out exclusive content and bonuses. That's Heroic Us Book. Now back to today's episode.

That's so beautiful. And I didn't know that about your mom. Of course you wrote Happiness with your dad, but that she helped co create the growth mindset. I come back to so often that the one parenting book that I've used the most with our kids is mindset. And of course self theories have preceded that, but just that embrace of hard work, of mistakes, of just the opportunity to practice something and get better at it. Yeah. Parenting more than anything else. So I didn't realize we had that connection as well. So bless your mom. Is your mom still with us?

She is. She is.

Oh my goodness. I will literally send her a personal thank you note after we shouted today. That's so cool. All right, so then also really cool to note, and this is, you know, our family's equivalent these days is what it means to live with virtue, what it means to be heroic and to be willing to be iconoclastic and make a difference in the world. We homeschool our two kids who are super young. But I'm hoping to be worthy of the praise that you just shared for your parents that they're excited to continue to pursue to the extent that's their path. If it's not, it's not. But they're. It's fun for me to see that. So thank you for sharing. Indiana Jones. So you obviously, you go to undergraduate, you decide you want to become a PhD, you know, psychologist. Walk us through that and how you kind of grafted that deep insatiable curiosity and intellectual hunger to understand the why and love of humanity and their idiosyncratic expressions into your life's work. Sure.

Well, let me first, because, you know, there's more than 100 people here. Be very clear that I did not name myself the Indiana Jones of positive psychology. That only the jerkiest person would say that about themselves. That's something.

But it's not that I got you qualified. He is known as I got you. I got you. I appreciate it.

Yeah, someone else called me that and it. And it stuck.

It's a good one though. So I appreciate your humility.

It is good.

And I liked. I loved Indiana Jones. I mean, I wanted to be Harrison Ford as a kid. You know, I mean, people. People were like, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I. One of my common answers was an Egyptologist and Largely, I got most of my career information from the movie Raiders of the Lost Ark, right? Here's a guy who's always prepared for lecture. On the weekends, he flies to Nepal. He gets into adventures, never gets hurt, comes back on time, ready to teach. Apparently his stud students really love him. Like, I was just like, this is an amazing job. Like, I can't believe that people would do a normal job when this exists. So even though that was a child's view of what work is like, it did hold some. Some kind of enticement for me. Just the idea, especially the. The hunger to experience and understand cultures that were not my own, especially. And it turns out that the same thing I described in geometry that led to my failing out also happened to me throughout my later years. So I have left a number of schools. I started studying to be a therapist, but realized I didn't really want to do that. And I just started working with my father and basically traveling to other cultures and interviewing people about their happiness. And in particular, I was curious. I remember I wanted to go to India, to Kolkata, to speak with people who lived in poverty, just about what they thought of their lives. And so many people, as I was preparing for that trip, said, oh, it's a waste of time. You don't need to ask them. And either they would have the view that because they're poor, they must be very happy in this sort of romanticizing the poor kind of approach, or they would say, because they're poor, they definitely are not happy, you know, because they don't have Harry Potter or Dyson vacuums or whatever it is. And I just thought, that's so interesting that. Why don't we just hear from them? You know, I think they're probably in the best possible position to tell us. So I started trying to find groups that had been overlooked by traditional psychological researchers and groups that were fairly hard to gain their trust and to work with and access, like sex workers living in Kolkata, for example. And I would spend, in certain cases, months just with these communities building up trust, being very transparent about what I was doing so that I could both observe their life while I was there, much like an anthropologist would, but then also hear from them about the conditions of their life. And that sort of was my. My professional start.

That's amazing. And what are some of the cultures that you've had the opportunity to study, and what are some of the main insights that you've gleaned from that?

Oh, well, it's a lot of cultures. I. I stayed in Amish homes If people are familiar with. With Amish people and worked for months with. With Amish communities, spent a good amount of time, you know, big portion of a summer up in northern Greenland with people who live at the northernmost latitude in the world and places like Kanak and Sierra Paluk, which is the northernmost town in the world, whose lifestyle is still anchored in traditional hunting methods. I spent a lot of time, many months, with Maasai tribal people. I've worked for, for more than a month with Palestinian and. And Israeli peace protesters who are working together for peace. You know, a pretty select group of people. A lot of people who are experienced experiencing houselessness in California, for example, spent many months there. So, you know, I really tried to find what I would kind of think of first, for various reasons, are sensitive groups. That is, you. You have to approach them with sensitivity. And you can't just treat them like lab rats, like, I'm just here to study you, but instead I'm really. What I'm here to do is learn from you. I'm. I'm here to just see what your life is all about. Because I don't have a script for understanding it. It's so far removed from my own life. And I think probably some elements are good, some are bad. I didn't want to romanticize anyone's life. So that. That's the groups and kind of the approach I took.

And then I have two questions. One very, very practical of how you financed it, which is an important part of the hero's journey, is that must have been an interesting creative challenge just to figure out that you want to do it and then how to get yourself to do it. I'm thinking of Nims Purja as they asked that question, who was. You know, he summited the 14 summits in seven months. Record was seven years. And the hardest part of his story, when I read his biography, autobiography, was getting the funding to get to the mountains was as hard as getting up the mountains. So actually, let's just go there. Then we'll come back to the psychological distinctions that you made. But as a hero on a quest seeking to do that which you felt inspired to do, how'd you do it? Like, what did you do in order to make all of that happen? Because it's easy to take it for granted. But I don't. Like you had to do certain things that I imagine were very, very creatively, practically challenging when you were putting that. Those plans and that funding together.

Yeah, it's a good question. I don't know that anyone's ever asked me that before. So I like it to have a new question. So people here, I'm certain, are familiar with the concept of a side hustle, you know, whether that's driving Uber or whatever. And I've sort of always joked that I'm side hustles all the way down. That is, I don't really have a main hustle and nor have I ever really had a main hustle. I've, I've only had side hustles. So I always tried to create various projects that might feed each other. So maybe I would be collecting research, writing about it. That writing might form the corpus of a book. The book pays dividends. It positions me in my coaching practice, which also is a paid work. So. But they're all connected in my mind. If I'm doing training, research, writing, coaching, it just all cross fertilizes. I, I would guess. And I, I wasn't making much early on certainly. And I wasn't using much though early on either. So that, that's part of the create the creative way. I mean I, I did an extraordinary amount of research very, very inexpensively. And now when I think about, you know, the grants people get, you know, oh, a multi million dollar grant, you know, I think there's just been kind of some inflation in terms of just the, the cost of research.

Yep. To make what I think is the implicit explicit, you lived very simple. You had clarity on what you wanted. You weren't willing to go do the normal thing. You wanted to create a life of deep meaning and purpose and do your thing, made the trades on all the shiny things, whatever. The Dyson vacuum cleaner, you weren't worried about that. You weren't worried about all the way to shiny things. You were worried about doing what you felt called to do. And then you did whatever you needed to do in order to make that happen. So you just basically figured out how to pay the bills and went off and did it. Because I was wondering, did you actually apply and get paid to do this?

And there, I mean there, there was some grant money too, certainly, which early on was, was the initial money. And I applied for some of those grants, a few of them, I was on some grants that my father had for research, all of that. And just on, on the topic of Dyson vacuums, because it's come up twice, I, I'm not here to shill for Dyson vacuums as a name brand product, but, but in, and now that I'm in my 50s, the truth is I wouldn't mind having one let's go.

You know the number of prototypes, you love dice. I don't know if you know, it's scored. We've actually got a plus one on him. I'm going to look at it real quick, playfully, but it's related to what we're going to get into anyway. The number of prototypes that he came up with before he figured it out is in itself proof of the very thing that, that you teach, that we'll talk about in a moment. Let me get back to you, though. So perfect. And I asked the question just to give context for everybody. A lot of these conversations. When I'm not connecting with someone like you that I admire, I'm coaching on a daily basis, one on one, I come in and I help our community, with rare exceptions, every single day. And one of the things that comes up is, yeah, but I don't have the money. And so finding the means through which we can pursue our dreams within the constraints of our reality, while making sure the constraints of our reality are appropriately modulated to where we are. I mean, when I started my first business, I had nothing. Going to Taco Bell was like an extravagant trip. You know, it's like, oh yeah, $1.50 for this can of tuna, you know, let's go. And just the spirit of again, the humble hero. But we figure out what we may be able to do in order to continue to pursue, however imperfectly, again within the constraints of each of our idiosyncratic realities. Now, with an 11 year old and 6 year old not doing what I did then, but thank you for going there, I just felt like there was something that, that would be useful now, which there was psychologically. What did you learn studying these cultures? And I imagine seeing both the diversity and the coherence of the human experience.

Yeah. So first I would say it reinforced my initial instinct, which is not just to assume that you know about groups. I mean, when I tell people, oh, for a long time I traveled the world and studied happiness. And in particular I studied groups who lived a materially simple life. If the person I was talking to liked material simplicity, they would automatically say, oh, they must be so happy. And if they didn't like material simplicity, they would say, oh, they must be miserable. And I thought, well, that's just really a comment on you, not on them. And so I learned to just not assume about the groups. And each group sort of had a different lesson. So for example, the Amish, really, because of their strong religious stance, they have this idea that it is that great to subjugate yourself, right. To really constantly kind of not think that you're great. But they were highly appreciative of everything physical they had. They felt like it was the bounty of God. So if you just looked at where they were satisfied, their income, their house, like, ever, they just thought, this is amazing. But if you ask them, are you moral, are you smart, are you good looking? They would just be like, no to all of it, because it's never good enough. And they would never want to. To come across as feeling godly or something like that. By contrast, the Maasai in Kenya were almost the opposite. They were quite literally like, chest thumping, really prideful, in. In the positive meaning of that word. Like, we are sort of the chosen people. They believe that all the cows in the world belong to them. If you have a cow, it's just on loan to you from them. They have a right to come take it at any time. They live in a pretty hostile environment in terms of wild animals, and they can handle that environment very well. They're really just like a tough, confident people, which is. Which is really culturally different than the Amish. Right. So you might ask yourself, oh, well then, who's happier? And this is sometimes where these kind of comparisons fall apart, because they're just happy in very different ways. One is happy by appreciating their blessings, and the other is happy by appreciating their. Their strengths and owning their strengths. So I think just sort of finding the. The unique lessons is also in itself.

A lesson I love. That is with the Maasai with whom you got the tattoo.

Yeah, it's less a tattoo than a scar.

Right. So can you give us that quick take on that story?

Talk about building trust. I can't. I can't, actually. No, It's. It's too long and detailed. So.

All right, well, then, one. I'll give the paraphrased, if I may, version, which is in order to earn trust with the Maasai, at least in part, I believe it was influenced by the desire to earn trust. Robert got branded. Branded may not be the right word.

Branded's the right word.

Yeah. Is the right word in a. In a classic, traditional sense. That must have been painful. I imagine that that falls into these snakes branding other categories, which is actually a good segue to the Courage Quotient, which is the book in which I first read about that story with you. So let's step back and let's transition into the. The Science of Courage and the work that you did that led to the Courage Quotient. Is that book out of print, by the way? Did I see that?

It is, yeah. It didn't. I mean, let's just be honest, it didn't do well. I've. I've had a couple of books that did really well and some that just didn't. And that was.

Look, I've read a lot of books and when I saw that, when I was going through it, I'm like. Because I was looking actively for a book on the science of courage of which I'm not aware of any other. Of course there's grit and there's this and there's that. I want to have a separate chat with you about that. I don't know where the rights are on that, but. But that's an interesting conversation because it's a phenomenal book. I mean, it's a very, very good book that I've leaned on heavily. So talk to us about the courage quotient, how science can make you braver. Why is it called the courage quotient? Just to start with an obvious kind of top level question and then we'll drill into some of the practices we can engage in. Yeah, I'll leave it at that.

Sure. So the courage quotient, that name came about because of the definition of courage. So everyone has kind of an intuitive understanding of what courage is. But one common understanding is sort of being fearless, not having fear. And that's not the way that psychologists think of it, and mostly in academics, that that is not how it has been treated. Rather it has been sort of facing your fear. That means being willing to act even in the face of fear. And some, some psychologists say for a worthy cause. So you're afraid, but because acting will result in something that is worthy, you act even though you're afraid, even though there is a personal risk to yourself. And that's what would distinguish it, for example, from, you know, robbing someone on the street. I mean, a robber might be afraid and they're acting anyway, but we wouldn't really say that's a worthy cause. So if you think of that's two separate things, your willingness to act and your fear. And that means to be courage, you can either pump up your willingness to act or lower your fear. And those are two separate processes because you could keep your fear sky high and just raise your willingness to act above the amount of fear you have, or you could try and tamp down your fear a little bit. And so I think of that as the courage quotient, sort of how much willingness to act do you have divided by how much fear you have. And you always need fear to be the smaller component. And as soon as fear outpaces willingness to act, you don't act.

Okay, cool. So I've always paraphrased it and I love your addition. I wish I had added that to how I framed it up in the book and other places. But the willingness to act in the presence of fever is how I've kind of done it. And to your point, yeah, yeah. But a criminal committing a robbery can have that and not have the virtue of courage. Therefore, there's something worthy of, perhaps even virtuous and noble as an act in itself. So two parts of the equation. One, the willingness to act divided by the amount of fear that you have. Obviously, yes. And let's work on both. Let's cultivate our ability to act and let's cultivate our ability to mitigate the amygdala firing out of control. How do we do each? And of course, the book is about this. But what's your quick take on how we can cultivate a deeper ability to act in the presence of your. Then we'll talk about how to actually lower, if you will, the temperature of the fear itself.

Sure. So the willingness to act is the more complicated. So I'd like to start with the fear component, because that's more straightforward. This is that thing I was telling you about where I just can't follow the rules. Exactly. Even when you say, let's just do a very simple thing. So the, the fear component is partially just about emotional self control. Right. If emotion is fear is a useful emotion, we should experience some fear. You don't want to get rid of fear. You don't want to live in a society where people don't have fear. And if you say, I'm afraid of jumping out of the plane, even if I have a parachute, well, that's just normal. Like, that's okay. I think most of our fear is fear of failure, fear of looking silly in front of others. Those are totally rational fears and probably things that you should listen to. I'm quite okay with people experiencing that, but you don't necessarily want them to paralyze you. Right. So anything you can do for emotional self control, for some people, that's going to be a mindfulness habit. For some people, it's going to be training. So you find in Cooper Woodard's research, that's a researcher on first responders. First responders differed from sort of everyday community members in their willingness to act. It was much Higher and their fear was much lower. And you might say, well maybe people who become police officers or paramedics just are less fearful people to begin with. And that could be true. But also through the process of training things become quite automatic and they feel like. And I know what to do, right? So if you see a motorcycle accident on the street, maybe you don't know what to do. You can run over to the person, you can call 91 1, ask for help, but beyond that you might not know how to render aid. They do know how to render aid, so they're more likely to rush over. And Cooper Woodard found not only our first responders and military officers quite high on this courage quotient, but also corporate executives, which I thought was pretty interesting in part because they're making decisions under uncertainty all the time and what they have to do is just manage those emotions. Right? So whatever you can do to calm yourself and also think this risk is worth taking. And often it's a combination of know how or information. Right? So public speaking would be a good example of a common fear for a lot of people. And you in part can inflate it in your mind. Will I forget what I'm going to say? What will it be like when I'm on stage? But if you're a speaker and you can go to the stage the day before or an hour before and stand on the stage in front of an empty auditorium, imagine what it's like, that can help you relax because you're filling in some of the unknown. And a lot of our fear just has to do with uncertainty and unknowns. And so the more you, you can visualize what it will look like, how it will feel, what it will be like, the more palatable it is psychologically, that's great.

And then the more reps you get in, I mean Emerson, in a non scientific way, do the thing you're afraid of and the death of fear is certain for that particular thing at least mitigate. And again, all the nuance that goes to a statement like that, but just that repetition too of the visualization and the experience. Oh, I didn't die, you know, I didn't. I, maybe I made a mistake or whatever, but it was okay. Like does that enter that side of the equation from your vantage point?

It's really interesting. So I'll use a quick personal example of this. I'm a rock climber and I. That sounds like a big thing, but I'm a super mediocre rock climber. Everyone should understand that, that I am as average as you get, I am nothing great. I climb like a 51 and a half year old man, which is what I am. I don't climb like an Olympian. And every time I get on a rope outdoors and go up a couple of pitches, I'm really afraid. Especially when you stop and you have to kind of, you know, work with the rope a little bit and you're not like, focused on the climb. I get really afraid. And I've done it many, many times, and my fear is never going down.

Let me extend that. So I hear you. And this is my. My criticism of Emerson is yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you don't want to get rid of it in situations. Situations and especially those you have it. My point was less that you. I mean, I have it every time before I give a talk. I'm coming in before us Today I'm like, oh, I'm excited. Which is one of my practices is I'm excited, you know, But I've done it enough times that when I feel the rush, I know that it's indicative of me getting ready to perform, not something's wrong with me. So my point was less that it would go away. Yeah, you know, Tiger woods, he's no longer quite as much of a moral exemplar anyway. The day he's not nervous when he hits the first tee is the day he quits. So you know that Henry Fondo throwing up before every performance. But we've done it enough times that we know that if this, then that. All right, cool. Let me take a deep breath. Let me remind myself of the 20 times I've done this before, or 200 or whatever it is, and then do what needs to get done. I was trying to get to that as a potential getting factor.

I think that that certainly can happen. And yeah, I agree with you in my example. I think what has been boosted for me is the willingness to act because I know I'm capable of climbing the thing that I'm going to climb. I know that truly the rope is relatively safe, but it has not affected my fear at all. And sometimes when I'm hanging out there, I feel a real spike of fear. And even if I try and calm myself down or think like, oh, this is just exciting to be hanging on this ledge, it really feels like a visceral fear to me. And instead of changing that, I just experience it.

Yep, I love it. And again, everyone will have their idiosyncratic experience. I gave a keynote to an audience size that was larger than anything I've ever done. Two weeks ago, I'm literally calling my wife before I'm like, all right. And in a context that was different. Staring through a blank camera, live Streaming to nearly 100,000. All right, cool. I'm thinking about that. And it's different. So for me, it's like. And again, it's always yes. And so I think it's both, in my experience, right. In myself to move from threat to challenge. So I'm not trying to avoid it. I'm leaning in. I'm excited. Bring it on is another mantra I like. So it's not that it's gone, but it's. It is mitigated. And the fear itself is channeled into something more constructive. And it's almost like there's a beautiful overlap that. That then, of course is also related to you, my willingness to step forward, etc, which may bring us into that complex, nuanced willingness to act part of the conversation. Because I find both to be true. You know, where it's like, yeah, it's there. And it was a cute. Yeah, I'm using all the tools I got. You know what I mean? All right, let's go.

I mean, I love what you're bringing up, Brian, because first of all, I love nuance. And it suggests there's not just a singular path, that for some people, in some instances you're going to be able to lower your fear. In other instances, you'll just be able to tolerate your fear. In other instances, you'll be able to channel your fear or sort of sublimate it into something else. In some instances, you'll just ignore it and focus instead on what pushes you forward, that willingness to act. And in various circumstances, for various people, any of those could be the correct action. Which is maybe why the book didn't sell well. Because I'm like, oh, yeah, there's a bunch of things that are right. And I think people want a little more definitive, like here's the three steps.

When it's even. I'm thinking of the. The reps and your, you know, comments about the first responder who's been there and done that. And we do work with, you know, the Special Forces community. And I'm blessed to be friends with people who've operated in that level. They're taking naps on the helicopter before they get dropped off. Ability to manage the fear and really sublimate to a state of exactly what should be happening. They're not denying it yet. They figured out how to work both sides of that equation and again, added the same what's going on their level, you know what I mean? Yeah. But I love it and I love the nuance and idiosyncra syncrotic kind of.

And someone said stress inoculation in the chat, which I really liked because you know, they do live fire activities for, you know, drills, for example, where real bullets are, are snapping over their heads or you know, flashbang bombs are happening. You know, these things that, that for us would be terrifying experiences and they become habituated to them so that then in the real circumstance they, they don't freeze up.

Yeah, that's awesome. Oops. Willingness to act. What arises for you as one of the most formative practices. And then we'll have some fun talking about a few different ideas that we have here. One, four, three time flies. We're having fun with friends. But what willingness to act. What if perhaps you have found to be most effective or that is known generally to be most effective or both.

Yeah. So when I wrote the book, I cited a study that has since not replicated. So now I wish it wasn't in the book. But even though I mentioned the study, I still think the concept is right. And people are going to think it's funny when I say this, but I think having a lucky charm is helpful. And I have a pretty wide understanding of what a lucky charm is. I think a lucky charm is any symbolic item that helps you. So you know, I think for example, many people have a pair of underwear that they put on. No one else knows, but it just gives them more confidence. Or a pair of socks or a tie or whatever it is just like a. And, and people can kind of relate to that. Like yeah, I kind of just feel like a little bit more me, a little bit more confident because of this. Often it's a piece of jewelry. Sometimes it's a religious symbol for people who are religious. Sometimes it's someone said the heroic coin. I love it all, all sorts of, of things. I once coached an actor who said they their biggest fear was auditions. And I gave her a little like adventure figurine. It looked like a little Indiana Jones. And I said, this little Indiana Jones isn't afraid of auditions. This little Indiana Jones has traveled all around the world with me and you can have it. And just having this thing, she knows that it's magic. She knows that it's just a piece of plastic and it's a child's toy. But just having it bolstered her. And she used to bring it to auditions in her pocket. And then she started Getting afraid that she would lose it. And so she would put it on her desk near her computer and she would just touch it before she left. And then she was like, I don't even know about that. And then she could just look at it before she left. And now just knowing that it exists somewhere in the world is enough for her. So she sort of weaned herself off that. And one last example I'll use because I'm afraid of so much stuff. I'm afraid of flying, but I fly really a lot. But I have, like, a little bracelet that I wear that I'm pretty sure is the thing that keeps the plane in the air. I don't know exactly how planes stay in the air, but I'm positive. And so that. That's the thing that helps me get on the plane.

Right. Again, the idiosyncratic. Just owning it playfully and just joyfully. You know, I get a lot of that out of you as well. Is the. The interesting blend of, you're not. You're certainly critical, but you're not cynical yet. The balance of that with the playfulness and not taking yourself or any of the practices too seriously, you know, do.

You mind if I comment on that? Because that's like a big thing for me. I distinguish between important and serious. And I think serious is a tone and important is a value. And I really like to treat things as if they're important.

For me there, please state that again. Important versus serious, if you can repeat, that'd be great.

Important versus serious. Serious is a tone, and importance is a value. So I want to treat things as if they're important, like they are valuable, they're worthy discussing or addressing. But it doesn't mean we have to treat them seriously. You could imagine a case, maybe with your best friend, that you might even make a joke about their cancer, like something that really kind of sounds awful to the ear, but in the context of that relationship, might be exactly sort of what the doctor ordered, because you don't have to treat it seriously, even though everyone recognizes how important it is.

Yeah, that's brilliant. Thank you for making that distinction. That's great. I want to make sure we take time to talk about the upside of your dark side. But I also want to hit a couple of things real quick. So almost like a speed kind of thing, right? Sure. Talk to us about the importance of, well, courage, blindness. I want to hit four things. We're going to go quick. So blindness. Tell us about the. That and the importance of not being blind to, you know, incidents in which we've demonstrated courage.

Many people who act in a courageous way, stereotypically running into a burning building to save people do it so automatically that they think there's no choice. And they just say things like, I just did what anyone would have done. But it's absolutely not true. They did not do what anyone would have done. People standing outside the burning building, filming it for Instagram, watching it. Some people are calling 91 1. They're doing a million other things. So sometimes the automaticity of our strengths, not even just courage, but all of our strengths, it comes so naturally to us that we mistake the extraordinary for the ordinary.

My wife got up last night. Our daughter had some issues that got her up. And she's up. She slept in the living room with her for, like. And it's like that. There you go. I mean, just that. That unbelievable love for our child that's easy to take for granted that, oh, I'm whatever. And she's got a bunch of other skills I could. Skills and virtues she embodies. But the point being, do not be blind to the incidents in which you are doing a lot more than what you might be giving yourself credit for. Roles, choosing courageous ones. Tell us about that.

Sure. So the story I use in the book is of this. I think he's a fifth grader. He's a very young child in China during the Sichuan earthquake that happened many years ago, and he pulled out loads of kids and saved their lives from the rubble. And. And he's just a child. And he said, well, it was my duty to do it. I was the hall monitor. I had a role that called on me to take responsibility for others. And I think it goes to show we like to just think that we're all just complete individuals and we do whatever we want. We have unfettered free will. But a lot of what we do is because of our role. When you are in the role of son or husband or father, you're going to act slightly differently because of the obligations, duties, and demands of those roles. And I'm actually a big fan of duty and obligation. I. I know that people say, like, oh, I don't believe in shoulds, or you shouldn't have shoulds put upon you, but I think that that shoulds are kind of helpful. So I just want everyone to know if I'm ever, like, struck by a car and I need help, like, you should help me. I just want to be clear about that.

I appreciate you making that explicit. I will accept the support as well and hopefully play the role of one who helps others. I think briefly of Marcus Aurelius Epictetus, two of my favorite teachers and guides and heroes, and Victor Frankl.

And literally every morning on my desk right now.

Oh, no way. A combined volume. Yeah, yeah, we're going to talk about that separately. Goosebumps. Wow. I got accused of having a dude wall, which I had. I had Epictetus on one side and Aurelius on the other. I decided to round it out with some female energy there. But anyway, Viktor Frankl, of course, was influenced by both of them. And the idea of playing our roles well is really important to me. Like, personally, if I feel called to play a certain role idiosyncratically, and I want to play it well. Frankel, of course, in a holocaust, he's a therapist. What does an individual like that do there? They offer therapy and support to those who need it desperately. So I have goosebumps again. I love it. I appreciate you highlighting that. And again, team, this is the app we're helping you create. Identities, roles that you play, that we want you to play well with virtue today. Be willing to fail. Talk to us about the importance of being willing to fail. Again, even saying that out sounds obvious, but tell us scientifically and from your vantage point why that is so important.

Yeah, I mean, it's gotten a lot of traction. So I think people are kind of familiar with the adage, you know, there is no failure. There's just opportunities to learn. I patently disagree with that because I do think there are actual failures, and I don't want to just whitewash everything and pretend like, oh, my marriage crumbled, you know, because I had loads of affairs, or I was embezzling from work and got fired. You know, that wasn't a failure, really. That was just a chance to learn. Like, no, I think you kind of failed at some basic stuff there. So failure just means that you. You didn't succeed. Right? You. You went off course in what you were trying to accomplish. I think there's so many benefits to it. I think there's a humility that goes with it. And I think that humility is especially interesting and important as people try and become better. So, you know, here, the people who are attracted to this, everyone here who wants to grow as a human, who wants to be more effective as human, I think part of that has to be some humility as well. Right? None of us want to be like, and now I made it, and I'm just awesome. And that's the way it is. And I think that repeated failures are helpful in that. I think repeated failures help you get to understand yourself. They help you withstand things better. And they are, of course, learning opportunities. If you learn from them, which requires some reflection. They are not automatic learning opportunities. They are potential learning opportunities.

Brilliant. Again, we could talk about that for a weekend. We will not. So we'll leave it at that. Perfect. Playing to win, promotion, focus. I thought this is just an interesting idea. And then I want to take the rest of our time and briefly talk about the importance of embracing the dark within the human experience and within ourselves, et cetera. What's the quick flying to win?

Yeah, so you know, the two motivations, approach and avoidance. The idea is, you know, imagine a parent whose child is going to climb a tree. One parent says, don't climb the tree, you could fall, you could get hurt, you could tear your clothes, you could get SAP in your hair. The other parent says, absolutely, climb the tree. You're gonna feel strong and confident, you're gonna get a new perspective of the world. And then you ask the question, which is the better parent? The truth is they're both good parents. They both want something and are defining their child's well being. One is defining safety, the other is defining sort of growth and experience. Both are perfectly fine motivations. However, the approach motivation, seeking to gain a desirable thing rather than seeking to avoid an undesirable thing is more linked to well being.

What's one way that you've done that in the recent past?

Oh, I do a lot of it. I'm very approach oriented. I don't do sort of a lot of defensive pessimism, which is a good strategy and they're very effective, but you know, kind of worrying about what could go wrong. I have sort of that entrepreneur's optimism, like this will probably work, right? So, you know, I mean, every time you write a book, collect some data, you do anything professionally, you know, you're just kind of like, yeah, I think it'll probably work out. Like, I've kind of thought it through, you know, maybe I can probably handle it if it goes wrong, but I think it's going to be okay.

And then you go for it and then it's, hey, I'm going to get excited about the possibility of its success looking something like this, climbing the tree, seeing a new vista, getting a little bit stronger, etc.

Yeah, but sometimes you do tear your clothes or break an arm also. And that's important to admit.

And this is the wisdom that comes from knowing that that's part of Life which perfectly segues to the upside of. Of the dark side. Yes, upside of your dark side. Give us. And again, give a few minutes beyond the hour.

Yeah, yeah, let's go for it.

Use the constraints to our advantage. But. But give us the quick summation of the importance of embracing the darkness in life. And yeah, I think your title, if I remember correctly, did it have the yellow happy face or was that just in my mind? It's not this.

It's half yellow, half black. It's not a happy face, though.

Yeah, yeah, cool. But. But that idea that life isn't about that happy yellow smiley face and if you don't have that, you're doing it wrong and bringing in the embrace of reality, the light, the dark, et cetera. What is the upside of our dark side?

Yeah, so I would say that's like the first half of the equation. And it was written in part before the phrase toxic positivity existed. It was written in response to that as it was an emerging phenomenon where people were just like, we should all be happy all the time. And happiness is. Is amazing. I think we should be happy a lot of the time. But also to recognize that that's unrealistic and that occasional fear or guilt or sadness or bereavement or any number of things are normal, natural, and even healthy. But just accepting that is only part of the equation. So I was just talking with my wife this morning about it and we're talking about people's views on comfort. Comfort is really sort of in the news a lot. And a lot of people are like, you got to have discomfort and withstand discomfort. And other people like. But it's so natural to seek out comfort. And really what we argue in the book is that psychological flexibility, the ability to shift between states is where the magic is. It's not just like, you should always be uncomfortable all the time. It's natural to want a softer bed than a harder bed. But you should also be able to withstand a harder bed should your circumstances require you to sleep in one. And it's the ability to shift. The ability to both experience and own your happiness when you have it and withstand and listen to your unhappiness when it occurs. That that's really what the book is about.

Absolutely brilliant. I need to come back and do the note on it. Dude, this was fun. What if I just spend 56 minutes with a. A wonderful human being? Thank you. Bless you. What have we not talked about that, you know, in a 60 second kind of, you know, I want to make sure I Say this just so it's in our space if anything arises for you.

I think that I don't know any more than anyone else knows. Like, I. I don't know. I've thought stuff through, but I don't know that I'm right about any of it. I don't make demands on anyone to agree with me. I just like for people to think about things. So if you're a coach, if you're a professional, whatever it is you are, I don't want you to just do the standard practice because that's what you were taught. I just want you to think it through and think what works for you. So if I said something and you're like, I don't think Robert's right about that, you might be right about that. And if you're like, I just think thinking it through is where the magic is.

Brilliant. Great demonstration of that. I appreciate your. From my vantage point, iconoclastic, you know, heroic embodiment. I hear kids in the background.

No, not here.

Oh, okay, cool. Maybe there was an open mic or something.

Someone else has kids. My. My youngest is 25, so there's. There's no children here.

Oh, I was gonna celebrate a few. Do you have kids?

Yeah, yeah. Well, I've. I have adults is what I have.

Yeah, there you go. Yeah, don't. Kids now. That's fantastic. And you're in Oregon, is that right?

That's right, yeah.

Cool. Well, fantastic. I appreciate you. Thank you for being with us today. I look forward to connecting more. I am going to send your. Your mom a thank you note, and I look forward to continuing the chat team. If you want to stay together and connect afterwards, please send your love, however you want to do it, beaming it to. To Robert now, and hope you enjoy the rest of your day. And I also do want to talk more about the courage quotient. To the extent you're open to that, I think there's something there. We created our own imprint to publish Arete. So we've already got a series of books going down. That's the context for that. Continue chat. Because that book's maybe needs a little updating or whatever. But that book's fantastic. Like, that's not okay to me. Like, how is it possible? We got these books selling. I'm like, what? We got the. It's still the only book on the science of courage, right?

Yeah, that's one of the.

Yeah. I mean, Aristotle tells us from his mind, courage is the most important virtue that vitalizes all the others. Like that book needs more way. So anyway I'd love to support with that to the extent that's interesting. We'll follow up. Bless you. Thank you. And Nat if you can do the honors of connecting everyone with one another. Everybody, great to see you. I will see you tomorrow. How's it already? Friday that week went crazy fast. I look forward to seeing you day one tomorrow 1:01pm Again, thank you Robert. Bless you. And Nat, thank you for connecting everyone. I will see you tomorrow. Thanks.

Hey hero. We hope you enjoyed this heroic chat to learn more about this series as well as how you can join Brian's daily live coaching sessions at 1:01pm Central Time. Plus get access to a ton more to help you move from theory to practice to mastery and express the best, most heroic version of yourself. Head to heroic us today and if you liked this episode, please leave a positive review and hit the subscribe button on your platform of choice. Have a fantastic day.