Heroic Interview: Constructive Living with David Reynolds

You're listening to Constructive Living, an Optimal Living interview with David Reynolds and Brian Johnson. Hi, this is Brian Johnson. Welcome back to the Optimal Living Interview series. Today I am really excited to be chatting with David Reynolds, who wrote Constructive Living. Subtitle of that book is Outgrow Shyness, Depression, Fear, Stress, Grief, Chronic Pain. Achieve the goal of construction Productive living to do everything well. Dan Millman introduced me to David's work years ago. And when I read this book, I just fell in love with it. It's 120 pages and I like to say it's absolutely the best book that most people have not heard of and I so strongly recommend it. And then when I was interviewing Patricia Ryan Madsen recently, we discussed how she's such a big fan and student of David and his work and constructive living and she connected us and here we are. So, David, I'm really excited to chat. Favorite ideas? And I really appreciate you taking the time to chat today.

Thank you, Brian. I'm happy to be able to talk to you today.

All right, so let's jump straight in and talk about the. Well, what is constructive living? Let's just start from the very, very high level. How would you describe constructive living?

Constructive living is a strategy that's based on a couple of Japanese psychotherapies, Morita psychotherapy and Nikon psychotherapy. I've adapted them and expanded them a bit. And it's a strategy for helping people become ordinary. People suffer a lot because they fear that they're not ordinary, that they suffer extraordinarily, or they want to be exceptionally superior somehow. But constructive living helps us to be reasonable about what's realistic in life and helps us to get on about living life as best we can.

That's amazing. And how would you articulate, in the book, you articulate the goal of constructive living as self mastery. Can you describe self mastery?

For us, it's actually something impossible. There's a Zen story about someone who expects to get ahead life, to become a superior special, to have a life full of satisfaction and ease and enlightened living. And the Zen master says to the person who wants that, that that's the biggest barrier to his achieving Zen superiority. That is, it's. We really don't know anyone who has a consistently enlightened, anxiety free fear, free jealousy free sorrow, free life. We know a lot about stories about Miyamoto Musashi or George Washington or whatever, but we don't really have any good stories about how they really spent their lives, most of their lives, whether they had sleepless Nights, what they really believed about the opposite sex or about their nations, for that matter. Don't know what they did when they were hungry or constipated. Did they get unpleasant feelings, and were they unusually angry in those moments? There aren't stories about that. So whatever the magic that we know about other people, we miss the fact that everybody in the world on some level, is ordinary.

Yeah. Bringing us back to the ordinary again. I love that you say that. There are no enlightened people. There are only more or less enlightened moments. Right?

That's right. That's right. We all have a variety of moments. That's why we say in constructive living, many me's were all changeable.

Many what?

Many mes. There's more than one? Just one me?

There are many, many me's. That's great. I've heard of many me's, but I hadn't heard of many me's. That's good. Well, so then how do we go about living constructively? And we can maybe navigate that through the five principles. I'd love to walk through that. So in your constructive living, my understanding is you articulate the five principles which.

Lead me some of those five principles myself. It's been, what, 30 years since I.

It has. Well, let's walk through them, and then we can go into them in detail. But I'll share all five right now, and then we'll go through them one by one. So the first of the five principles is feelings are uncontrollable directly by the will. The second principle, feelings must be recognized and accepted as they are. The third, every feeling, however unpleasant, has its uses. The fourth feelings fade in time unless they are restimulated. And then the fifth feelings can be directly influenced by behavior. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on each of those. So feelings are uncontrollable directly by the will. And for people not familiar with your work yet, abuse. Big idea that I got from your book is that feelings follow behavior. And that too often we think that we should feel a certain way before we do something. And you flip that around and say, look, now it needs to be done. And the way that you articulate feelings in this context has been deeply impactful for my life. So I'm excited to hear your thoughts on each of those principles. Does that sound like a good idea?

Fine. For example, we're taught in our culture that you should have confidence before you start doing something, before you start a new job, or before you go into college or whatever, or before you ask somebody out on a date. And the reality is that the order of things is that you do something. And if you're successful at it, then the feelings of confidence come. So it's not a matter of somehow getting your mind into shape in some particular position so that you can act. It's rather a matter of risking some behavior and then seeing how that works out. I often write about that. I'm afraid to fly. And you know that I fly all the time. I think twice a year. I fly around the United States lecturing, and I fly scared to death. I make sure that my will is in proper order before I get on a plane. People will say, no, no, no, you must overcome your fear of flying before you can fly. And I say, no, that's not true. What you need to do is buy an airline ticket and you can check out the reality of that. You can get on a plane feeling scared, but you can't get on a plane without that airline ticket. The behavior is what's really important.

That's so good. And just to go into that, the fear line, you have one of the best lines I've ever read about fear. You say that anyone who says he isn't afraid of anything is both stupid and lying. I think that's the best. Can you tell us about that?

It's sensible to be afraid of fearful things. A good soldier will tell you about courage, but he'll also tell you about feelings of fear and going ahead with what his training has taught him to do.

So why do we have this myth that somehow fear is bad or we need to get rid of it, etc.

I'm going to blame it on Freud. Freud's not really so much in favor these days, but Freud was really emphasizing emotions and it was an in sort of thing to emphasize emotions in the 50s and 60s. I think if you look at what kind of therapies are being practiced these days, you find a whole lot more behavior oriented therapies than psychoanalytic sorts of things.

And why is that so much more effective?

It's more effective because it works. That's just the way it is.

Why does it work?

Because once you behave, it has an effect on the world and you get some feedback from reality. I was giving a lecture one time and a man stood up in the back of the room and said, Dr. Reynolds, he said, I don't agree with what you're saying. I think that what I think and what I feel actually directly influences the world. It influences reality. And you've been saying that my thoughts and feelings they had no direct effect on the real world. And I stood there in the front of the room and I had my head bowed and my eyes closed. And he said, well, Dr. Ems, what do you think about that? I'm disagreeing with you completely. And I finally looked up at him and said, what I've been doing right now is thinking that I wish that fellow would shut up and sit down. But he didn't do it until I said something, until I behaved.

Doing is the key. I love it. So let's go into again the whole idea of feelings follow behavior. And then you talk about the fact that we can do depression. Talk to us about how we do depression.

Yeah. By the way, I must say that feelings do follow behavior, but they don't always follow depression behavior in the direction that we want them to follow when we use our behavior sensibly. For example, a person's depressed. One of the things that actually good scientific research shows these days is that physically moving around is helpful with a whole lot of depressions. So there's something about getting up and cleaning your room as a superior activity to sitting on the couch and trying to make yourself feel better just by some sort of mental activity. So it's important that we use our behavior sensibly in a realistic kind of way. And often that will result in the kinds of feelings of success and so forth that we're hoping for. But sometimes it doesn't work. Sometimes you can do all the right things and you just don't feel better, or you don't feel confident, or you don't feel exactly what you wanted to feel. And that's okay because just the doing of those things in itself is important.

And you talk about just the simple act of curling ourselves up into a depressed state. Physically, depression will follow that state. And so just simply moving through that, actually exhibiting some behaviors of what a. What a happier version of us would do, can generate some of those. Obviously not all the time, but something powerful in that. So you also share a story that I love in the book about Copernicus and this idea that we think we are the center of the universe. Can you tell us about that? You share a great Japanese word that talks about being self centered and selfish in its alternative. Can you describe that to us?

Is the Japanese word. It means the self in the center of the mind. Essentially it means that the focus is on yourself. And a lot of people believe that worry that other people are paying a lot of attention to them, are noticing what they're doing. A shy person, for example, thinks that all the people around him are noticing what he's doing. If he's shinki, that's from that shinkei shih tzu word, the Japanese word. It's a kind of a sensitive, neurotic person. A shinki person is really careful about all the things that he's doing because he's worried about what other people are going to think about him. It's fairly common, by the way, when people get up in front of a group of people to give a speech that they feel a certain amount of anxiety and worry. And again, that worry is normal and natural because we want to do well. We want other people to like us, we want other people to respect us and admire us. And so when you're giving a speech, for example, you may feel some tension about what you're doing because the focus is on yourself, on how I'm doing now as I speak, rather than on those people out there in the audience. What's the best thing I can do to get my idea across to them?

So that simple switch. So if you were giving a speech and you felt your heart rate increase and sweaty palms and all those other physiological factors and you notice, wow, I'm worried about how I'm going to come across. What would be your. Would you have a certain type of self talk to extend into?

Yeah, that's natural. I want other people to like me. And how is that person who's sitting in the front row who seems to be looking up with a lot of interest at what I'm talking about, how can I get across that idea? I'm really careful when I give speeches, by the way, to dress in an ordinary way and have my hair cut in an ordinary way and talk as I'm talking now using ordinary terms, ordinary speech. Because I want to disappear and have the content of what I'm talking about be what flows across to the ears of the people who are out there listening, that's amazing.

And basically get ourselves out of the way. Are there any other practices that you engage in to kind of see the connectedness and to kind of get out of that self centered perspective?

Yeah, well, the ordinary things that we can do I've learned. For example, anyone who's lived in a foreign country, I spend, used to spend about half of every year in Japan. Anybody who's lived in a foreign country for a while learns the value of the ordinariness of everyday life. How to do banking, how to get the clothes washed, how to buy food, how to order food and so forth. How to get one's sleep at appropriate times and in appropriate places. Those ordinary, taken for granted parts of our everyday life are really important and jump out at one who lives in a foreign country for a while. So it's important to be aware, to learn sensible, realistic ways to live in the current circumstances that you're in. So I think that rather than trying to make oneself feel special or superior or unique or such an outstanding individual, one learns to do well the everyday parts of living that we all encounter. So the value isn't I'm nothing special. In fact, I'm wearing a cap right now that says nothing special. It keeps reminding me what's important is this reality, this particular moment, and the way that reality keeps taking care of me, whether I'm doing things exceptionally well or whether I'm in this particular moment being a jerk. Again, I hate to use these technical terms.

I appreciate you keeping it in the realm of ordinary. Let's talk about the phrase you use now, what needs to be done? I mentioned in my note that I created on it. I don't know how many times you used that phrase, but it sure seemed like a lot. Tell us the significance of it.

Reality keeps kindly bringing to us things that need to be done. Right now we need to be carrying on this conversation. In a little while, I may need to be fixing my dinner. How boring life would be if reality didn't kindly present to us a string of things, one after another that needs to be done. And what's interesting is that once something gets done that results in reality presenting us with something else that needs to be done, the next thing that needs to be done. So it's a constant circle, if you like to think of it that way, of something that needs to be done. I do it. Oh, something needs to be done. I do it. Oh, something needs to be done. I do it. And that's really all that reality presents to us, a whole series of things that need doing. And whether we succeed at what we're doing or whether we fail at what we're doing, good old reality sends us the next thing either way.

And all we need to do is do what needs to be done. So many things get in the way. But how would you identify the primary things that get in the way of that simple truth?

Well, I can ignore what needs to be done. I can pretend that something needs to be done that really doesn't. I can get so distracted by my feelings that I don't notice what reality is bringing me moment by moment. And that's why most of the assignments that we give folks in constructive living have to do with paying attention to the circumstances that one finds oneself in and responding to those circumstances realistically. So, for example, if I give the assignment for somebody to take a walk around the block, I'll give that assignment to somebody who's got a lot of self centeredness and is worried about that they suffer unnecessarily more than other people and so forth. They might get a simple assignment to just walk around the block, but while they're walking, they're to pay attention to all sorts of things. The cars that they pass, the lawns of the people's homes that they pass, the traffic lights that confront them as they walk around the block, and so forth. So that their attention gets focused outside of themselves as much as possible. They're already doing too much of the self focus. They need some practice in getting themselves out there, in losing themselves in the situation. And we all have experiences in which we are completely lost in the situation that we're in. For example, when you read a novel, for example, and for moments of time, you are that character. Or when I'm on a plane, for example, I paint postcards. I paint little flower postcards when the plane hits turbulence, only when the plane hits turbulence. And I have a collection of hundreds of postcards that I've painted when the plane hits turbulence. What I really want to do to distract myself from my feelings and to get about into the world more. What I really want to do, because big muscle activity is the easiest way to distract yourself when you're upset. What I really want to do on a turbulent airplane is get up and sweep the aisles, but of course that's not permitted. I have to sit there with my seatbelt fastened, and the least I can do is sit there and move my arms to paint those little watercolor postcards.

Wow.

I lose myself in those flowers every once in a while.

Amazing. So bringing ourselves to that moment and just the discipline and the practice. I was going to ask you what the exercise is or what they are that you suggest to your students. Something as simple as just going for that walk and observing something outside of ourselves is such a powerful, simple way to do it. Any other exercises that you recommend?

Yeah, but before I suggest those, I want to make it very clear that these aren't aimed at making you be superior or to lead a life of endless confidence and skill and living. I don't know anybody who does that. What I'm really interested in doing is helping people be realistic and ordinary. And I suspect that constructive learning will never be a big thing because most of the people that I run into anyway hope that they will find some sort of life way, whether it's Zen or whatever, that will make them be superior. That will give them an anxiety free life, or a worry free life, or a life with no great tragedy, sorrow, dissatisfaction. I don't know about any kind of life like that. So I'm going to give them assignments. Some of them, the assignments will be based on. On the Morita side of constructive living, the action side of constructive living. Those are simple to do. They usually involve some sort of activity that pushes their attention out into the real world. The second half of the assignments that they get are based on the Nikon or reflection side of constructive living. And those assignments are rather like writing a letter of thanks to your mother for something that she did specifically for you during grammar school years. And some of my students will say, oh no, I'm not grateful to my mother for what she did for me during grammar school. She was very controlling. She was. She was hard to live with and I just don't have good memories from those years. And so I will suggest to them that I didn't ask them to feel grateful to their mother for those years. I asked them to write a letter of thanks for things that she did for them during those grammar school years. At least 10 things. So, for example, did she help you with your bathing? Did she fix the meals for you? Did she drive you to the hospital when you were ill? Did she go over your homework with you? Did she provide you with an example of how not to be a mother when you grew up? Those are things that you can notice that she did for you, whether you feel grateful or not. I don't know about you, but I never thanked my parents for any of the meals that they prepared for me while I was growing up. When I was a little kid, I just ate the meals and put them as my due, as though that was just natural that I should eat the food that they went to some trouble to buy and shop and prepare and so forth.

So again, bringing us back to the ordinary, simple appreciation of what life has presented us now and throughout our lives, eh?

Yes. I'll also give them an assignment to clean out a drawer, for example, and to take everything out of the drawer, a kitchen drawer, for example. And as you put it back, each object, you thank it for something specific that it did for you in the past. Thank you, soup spoon. You helped me serve this soup at the garden party we had last week. Thank you. Carving knife thanks for helping me carve the roast beef yesterday at dinner time and so forth. When I give this assignment, I often remind my students to do this thinking quietly, not out loud, because if somebody walks into the kitchen and finds you talking with your carving knife, you may be in a certain amount of trouble. But I want them to notice that whether they noticed it or not in the past, whether they appreciated it in the past, whether they felt gratitude or not in the past, those objects, too, kept serving them. And the good news is, objects that serve us. The chair that I'm sitting in, for example, right now, Serve us. Whether I'm being a good guy or, again, a jerk at this particular moment. There was a time in my life when I was really young that I believed that I had to try to be perfect in order to deserve what the world was giving to me. And. And it didn't work out because I couldn't achieve that goal. Taking care of me.

Yeah. I love the way that Patricia reflected on this wisdom and her improv wisdom, calling it silent gifts and just that right now we can look around ourselves and keep ourselves occupied for the rest of our lives, pulling the threads and all the things in our current line of sight that we have an opportunity to be grateful for. Ryan.

Yes. Somebody I never met is keeping the electricity going so that these lights are shining, and I can see what I'm doing right here in this room.

Yeah, well, yeah, I mean. Right. And I'm looking at the monitor that's recording this conversation. The incalculable number of people that are involved in this process now and over the last hundreds of years to get to this point is remarkable.

I was talking with a group of senior citizens yesterday, and I asked them how many of them, when they walked into that room, actually faced their chair and said to the chair something like, thank you, chair. For the next hour, they're going to be supporting me while I listen to that guy talk. And of course, nobody raised their hand. As soon as each of them sat down in his or her chair, they began to think of that chair as my chair. My chair. And if we took a break and everybody got up and left the room for a minute and came back and they found somebody else sitting in their chair might be upset because it was just a matter of rubbing their rump against the chair that made it theirs. Even though they didn't design it, they didn't carry it up into that room. They didn't fabricate the chair. It became theirs just by occupying it for just a moment.

Much more constructive to take the opportunity to appreciate the individuals that put that chair there and their opportunity to be blessed by it. For that hour of your talk, what have we not talked about that you think is important for us to address in terms of constructive living?

Well, let's see. I think I should point out that there's not anybody that I know that does it right all the time. So what you want to do when you're not living up to the standards that you set for yourself is to notice that and get back on your horse. Get back on needs to be done so that it's not a matter of beating yourself up for failing to live up to your own standards. It's a matter of noticing and then doing what needs to be done next.

It's an extraordinarily simple formula, isn't it? Yeah. It's so liberating, though, just to get out of the story that we need to be perfect, that if something. If we are not perfect, then it's because something is wrong with us and we're the only ones that have that issue and that ordinariness, the common humanity and the opportunity to get back on the horse and take this moment as the next chance to express ourselves even more fully. Right.

Exactly right.

Wonderful. I like to wrap up these chats with two questions. One I'd like to hear from you if you're open to sharing the practices that you've cultivated in your life. One of my big things is helping people go from theory to practice. And I love to learn what people, ordinary people, who I admire for their ordinariness, do in their ordinary lives to help themselves stay connected. Is there anything that you want to reflect on? On that?

Yeah. I reread my books every once in a while, and I'm always amazed at what I wrote. We get credit. We authors get credit for writing the books we write, we wrote. And of course, some of my effort was involved in standing. I used to stand in front of a computer at 4 or 5 in the morning and write these books because there were no telephone calls and no visitors and I could stand up. I had to stand up because if I sat down, I'd go to sleep. So there's some effort involved in that. But there's also the matter of something put those thoughts into my mind. And I have no idea whether the thoughts that ended up in the books, where those thoughts came from, they happened to me just like feelings happen to me. So rereading the books and thinking, oh, that's interesting, is a good reminder of how the books too are borrowed. I get the credit for them. Thanks. But the ideas for the books, what went into the books are borrowed from Morita and Yoshimoto, the fellow who founded Nikon, and from that nowhere place that happens at 5 o' clock in the morning.

Beautiful. And you may have already described it, but I like to ask the question, if you were going to share one piece of wisdom, you could only share one piece of wisdom, what would that be?

Accept reality the way it is, that includes your feelings and what needs to be done, and then go about and do it.

Wonderful. David, thank you so much for your wonderful ordinariness. I appreciate you and excited to share this.

Thank you for your time. Brian okay.

We hope you enjoyed this optimal living interview. Please visit brianjohnson me for more.

Sam.