Heroic Interview: It’s Just Good Business with Jeff Klein

You're listening to it's just good business, an optimal living interview with jeff klein and brian johnson. Hi, this is Brian. Welcome back to the Optimal Living 101 series. Today we're talking with Jeff Klein, one of my favorite people in the world, one of the leading thinkers and advocates of the conscious capitalism and really has played a founding role in bringing the conscious capitalism movement to us. Been engaged in this work for decades now and is just a super inspiring human being. Beyond his work with his company Working for Good, his first book called Working for Good, his new book called It's Just Good Business, which I want to talk about a lot today. But Jeff Alexander and I love you, appreciate you taking the time to be here today and excited to explore ideas.

It is always a delight to talk with you, Brian. And really I am just a mirror. I am your reflection. So anything you see in me that you like, you're really looking at yourself.

Well, there we go. It's a pretty good view then. Right on, bud. Well, let's start with your brand, It's Just Good Business, which is the name of your new book. I love the idea. Can you tell me what does that mean for you? It's just good business.

Yeah. So taking care of people, it's just good business. Working from a place of purpose, it's just good business. Right? Creating value for all is just good business. Serving all of your stakeholders, cultivating a conscious culture, it's just good business. And as the words reflect, if you think that good business means you make money, you create a healthy, durable, sustainable, long term business, then doing these things, doing the right thing, is just good business. It works in the most mundane respects and it works in the higher respects. It's just good business. To take care of things, to take care of people. And ultimately the deeper meaning, Brian, is, is recognizing that business at its core is human beings getting together to do something for themselves, each other and the community at whatever level that might be. It might be their local community, might be national, might be global, but it's human beings, it's a form of human social organization. So taking care of things is taking care of people. Right. Is serving yourself, is serving those you're working with, it's serving those you're serving.

Yep.

It's just, and quite frankly the other, the other title could be it's just comments.

Yeah, exactly what I was thinking. Right. And what's amazing is that we're seeing that not only is it just good business, it's actually the best business. Right. And that this is what Creates not only the most fun and fulfillment and meaning, but also the most profit, ultimately.

The most profitable and the most sustainable. So profitable over a long term.

Yeah. That's great. Well, let's jump into the kind of, the broader context in which all this sits is the idea of conscious capitalism. Can you tell us what that means to you, conscious capitalism?

Well, again, I'll start at the deepest level. At the deepest level, capitalism is a system. It's an emergent human social system that probably started 10,000 years ago when the first seed savers said, hey, we can collect food every year. Well, if we hold onto these things and we put them in the ground the next year, well, then we don't have to run around and look for food. We know where it is. Right. Oh, we'll save a little more this year because then we can plant more next year, et cetera. Right. So it's a system that serves human beings, trade. Right. Trade has been going on for millennia where some human beings, some communities had certain wealth, whether it's corn or stones, whatever it is. And they came across another group that had something else because, wow, we'd like some of that here, you want some of this for some of that? So that's exchange, right? So these two things, one is saving, accumulating wealth, as in seeds. The other is recognizing value that someone else has and trades it, whether it's a thing or whether it's, hey, could you do this for me? And I'll do this for you in exchange. And over the millennia, a complex system of exchange developed, voluntary exchange developed, which we call capitalism, Accumulating wealth trading. Right. Conscious capitalism is, you could say, an emerging form of capitalism that reflects our response to changing circumstances. We live in a world where clearly we're interdependent, interconnected. Something happens in one part of the world, whether it's physically through environmental issue or whether it's socially with conflict or whether it's something to do with their economy. It ripples throughout the whole globe. So recognizing this interdependence, the technologies that we have that provide transparency, that provide immediate connection anywhere with anyone, change the nature of the game, as does the accumulated effects and unintended consequences of some of human activity and including commercial activity. So a couple hundred years ago, we spew smoke in the air, okay? You know, it disappears, no big deal. Then we learn that, oh, you know what, this stuff causes diseases and, oh, this stuff pollutes our waterways so that we can't drink. Oh. So conscious meaning awareness. We recognize the effects of what we're doing. And we go, huh, maybe that's not such a good idea. Since ultimately what we're doing in these things we call businesses is fostering survival, fostering our perpetuation, propagation over time, and ideally, ultimately fostering human flourishing. So if the consequences of what we're doing through business are actually undermining our ability to survive and perpetuate and flourish, then the extent to which we have conscious awareness, we go, hmm, maybe we need to improve. So conscious capitalism is taking this very powerful, pervasive system of wealth creation and exchange, which again, has been developing over millennia, recognizing, bringing conscious awareness to it, which is a reflective capacity to look and see. Huh? How's this working for me? How's this working for us? How's this working for all of us? And recognize it works in some ways, and in some ways it can be better. Let's improve it then. I'll take a pause. Pause. Do you want to say anything before I continue?

You're on a roll. Keep on going.

All right, so pause, play again is what's emerging over the last, really several decades is companies that have started in the late 60s, early 70s, mid-70s, 80s, people that grew up in the 60s with a social conscience, with an environmental conscience, who may be influenced by the personal growth movement, we can become better self improvement, et cetera. They've been applying these insights and understandings to their businesses, the Whole Foods, Patagonia, the container store, etc. And here they are now, mature businesses, really successful in that you look back and go, well, how did we do that? Well, they recognized, one, they had a purpose beyond making money. Two, they had a commitment and still have a commitment to creating value for all, all their stakeholders, customers, team members or employees, their vendors, their investors, the communities. They do business in the environment, recognizing that without healthy, sustaining natural systems, there are no people, right? If there are no people, there's no business. So recognizing that they all need love and care and attention, and they all need to flourish for the business to flourish, so they focus on creating value for all of the stakeholders. Thus, they have a healthy ecosystem, which, guess what, generates healthy returns to the investors. And then they recognize that. How did they do that? Well, they recognize that leadership is a function of some mammals, including Homo sapiens. Leaders are, you know, characters. And it's not always one person that changes. And in different contexts, different leaders. But leadership is a role and function in human social groups. Leaders kind of hold the light forward, they inspire, they point a direction, and that a certain kind of leadership, leadership in service to the purpose in service, in service to the stakeholders, in service to the culture of the organization is part of what creates this new paradigm business. And then the fourth element is this conscious culture is a culture that is focused on supporting human beings individually and collectively to flourish. Really focusing. We're saying, okay, we know how to survive, we know how to propagate, let's flourish. This is where personal growth, et cetera comes in. It's like, all right, how do we become the most as human beings individually and collectively? So that's what we mean by conscious capitalism.

Love it. Well, thank you for bringing me all the way back to the very origins to today and that emergent feel of conscious capitalism. And we started juxtaposing kind of a normal business, or normal capitalism, if you will, with that conscious, more awareness brought to it version. And you highlighted some of the core principles and differentiators for the conscious business. I'd love to unpack some of those. Let's start with purpose. So you mentioned that a conscious business has a purpose beyond just making money. Tell me what that means and how we see that in these conscious businesses.

Answer that in one second. I want to say that businesses from corporations were first formed. I think it was the Romans to build aqueducts, right? And the purpose of a corporation was to limit the individual's liability for something that would serve the social group. So Rome needed built. They went to some of their, you know, wealthy, capable people and they said, hey, look, we really need this and if you screw up in some way, we're not going to hang you, we're going to give you a break, we're going to limit, you're not going to be liable for this, but please do it. So they built things, right? And if something went wrong, they weren't thrown in jail. When the early colonies in the US started, the king granted them corporations built the same thing, build roads, build public works. And they were set up for a very specific social purpose. So really from the origins of corporations, there was a social intention behind them. If you go back, companies like Johnson and Johnson and avon, those are two that I know that I've looked at, they're about 130 year old companies and you look at their early corporate documents and they have almost the same language that we're using now in conscious capitalism. They talk about creating value for customers and for employees and for the communities and stewarding the environment. So just want to say that business as normal in some respects, it's really an aberration of the last 30 years where the focus is on all about shareholders, all about immediate short term returns. That's not the way it's always been in various degrees, but this is really an aberration over the last 30 years. And we're getting back kind of a more socially rooted, grounded capitalism in perhaps a deeper and higher way. So I wanted to say that first.

Yeah, yeah, awesome.

By the way, John Mackey and Raj Sisodi have a new book called Conscious Liberating the Heroic Spirit of Business on Harvard Business Review Press and reviews a review in Forbes pretty much very explicitly. Actually acknowledged this is a new paradigm. This is as different as recognizing that the sun does not revolve around the Earth. The Earth and the planets revolve around the sun. It's a shift. Okay, that's it. So purpose. Ed Freeman, who I think you've met, has this beautiful quote saying that a human being has to produce red blood cells to survive. Right? But the purpose of a human being is not to produce red blood cells. Similarly, a business has to generate profits to survive over time. Right? But that doesn't mean it's its purpose. It's one of its functions. It's one of the things it needs to do. Its purpose is something else and its purpose. John has always said it's up to the entrepreneurs who start the business to decide what its purpose is. Now, recently he's acknowledged that, you know, our purpose has evolved and our 50,000 millennial team members are redefining our purpose. Okay, Again, expanding the definition of the purpose. But the purpose could be something as simple and perhaps making widgets that do this for people. Right? That could be a purpose. But typically at the root, you know, if you really delve down deeper, there's some motivation of service, right? There's some motivation that maps onto that, enhancing human experience, you know, supporting our ongoing survival, fossil flourishing somewhere. If you go down there, there's a reason why people do things. Because we have to remember we're biological beings, we're social beings have evolved over millions or billions of years. And at the root, these are the drives that are informing everything that we're doing. We layer stuff on top of that and we have psychology and personal histories, etc. But ultimately we're looking to survive ourselves and our families and our friends and our communities, and we're looking to enhance our experience of being alive. So something, again, every person purpose is a little bit different, but something that is tapped into those roots. Is there almost any case you really drill down?

Yep. Yeah, that's great. And then I love the way that John articulates the idea that, you know, every other profession, whether it's medicine or law, has a purpose much deeper than making money. The money is a byproduct of creating more health or, you know, creating more justice in the world. And that business, as you referenced in the kind of Origins of Business, has a deeper purpose of creating social good and creating the products and services that can really move the world forward in a noble way. And then each of us discover what is that purpose for us and just love that. And I love that red blood cell quote. Can you share that just one more time? Because when I heard that, that kind of framed it for me so perfectly. Can you repeat that? The Ed Friedman Wisdom, Pleasure.

So every human being, every or every human organism, right, has to generate red blood cells to survive. But that doesn't mean that the purpose of that human being, of that organism is to generate red blood cells. And same way, you know, every needs to generate profit. But that doesn't mean it's its purpose. It's for being right.

I mean, it's one of those things that you hear and you're like, well, yeah, it's just good business. It's just common sense. Come on, let's think about it. But when we live for those red blood cells, we've obviously done something dramatically unnatural and unfulfilling, ultimately and unsustainable, ultimately. Let's talk about some of the other facets you mentioned, interdependence and the idea of a multiple stakeholder model. Tell us about that and why that's essential to a conscious business.

I'll start by looking at the contrast. So you could say from a Cartesian mechanical model, business is a machine. It's a tube. You put inputs in and profits come out and everything is directed towards that. The end of the going right to shareholders and create financial value for them. Okay, that's one way of looking. Anything the stakeholder orientation or model does is it recognizes that we are an individual human being is an ecosystem. I mean, we have more bacteria in us than we do our own, right? I mean we are an ecosystem. A human community is an ecosystem of human beings and non human beings and tools, etc. A business is an ecosystem embedded in other ecosystems to the origins, as it were, or the elements that a business needs to survive. Or it needs customers, right? You don't have customers or clients, you have no business. Right? Again, depending upon your business, if you don't have somebody doing the work, delivering, you know, creating the product, delivering the service, team members, employees, Whatever you call them, associates, well, then you don't have a business if you're producing anything that requires raw materials or if you use tools. If you don't have vendors providing you with those materials, tools, etc. Well, then you can't produce what you're producing, etc. No business, right? If you acquire capital in any form from investors and there are no investors, no business, et cetera. Earlier natural systems, if you don't have fresh air and clean water and food, et cetera, and sunshine, there will be no human beings. And forget about the need for business if there are no human beings. So recognizing this, a conscious business and conscious. The people embodying conscious business recognize this and go, okay, well, the healthiest system are those where all of the parts are healthy, right? The weak link in the chain, say, is the part that the chain breaks. So you squeeze and squeeze and squeeze and squeeze your vendors, but you're paying your employees well and your customers are happy, et cetera. Well, ultimately, guess what? You squeeze them too tight and everybody's squeezing them, they're out of business and oops, you just lost it. An essential part of your system. So the extent to which, and that's one way of looking at it, another way of looking at it is treat your vendors well. And these are human relationship, these are interdependencies. Their survival and your survival are intertwined. So in a healthy way, right? One being exploded and the other one being, you know, emaciated in a healthy way where everyone is healthy and thus more resilient means the whole system is more resilient, means a financial crisis comes along and whack, you know, no, you're not going to have a big hole. You're not going to have half your wall knocked over because they're healthy and strong and grounded and you're together holding hands so that you can withstand shocks that happen and you can be there and give and take and support each other to keep the whole going. So this. Is this making sense?

Yeah, of course. It's beautiful. I love the imagery.

This is the way that you feel and see and recognize this and given that you pay attention to, oh, what is, what do they need? Right? What can I do to support them to learn, grow, develop, be stronger, be healthier, be resilient. And what happens is in that process of caring for each other, then you take care of each other, right? And Lawrence Koh tells beautiful stories about. He helped one of his suppliers who was in a really hard place, and 10 years later, he was in a really challenging place. And they came back without even a second. Here, here's a check. Don't worry about paying us back whenever just what goes around comes around all that. This is the foundation. I mean business is a human function, right? So to which you're building and cultivating deep invested human relationships, then you're building a healthy web, resilient, you know, trust based web that is much more reliable, sustainable, resilient than one that's based on fear and you know, taking advantage of each other and squeezing each other.

Yep, wonderful. Well, thank you for articulating that. And just that idea of rather than maximizing shareholder value, one stakeholder, you, you know, we're really committed to optimizing the ecosystem as you so beautifully described in each of these different stakeholders from I love Raj's simple acronym of spice, right, that society, partners, investors, customers and employees. We can talk about this. I like to joke in these talks that we can talk about that for about a month. But given the constraints we have here, I want to chat about conscious leadership and I want to talk about specifics tips you have for us. And let's assume that we're all leaders in different capacities, right. Different aspects of our lives, whether it's in our family or in a managerial role or as the CEO of a business or a non profit or whatever. What are some of your top tips to cultivate a more conscious approach to leadership?

So first thing that comes to mind, and I appreciate the way you said it Brian, that we each have leadership roles in different contexts. One of the most powerful attributes of I'll call it a conscious leader, effective leader, is humility. And you've heard of servant leadership as one kind of whole school of thought. Doug Bao found this great quote. Doug, as you, I think you know, the current CEO of Conscious Capitalism Inc, Former president of Trader Joe's. I have great fortune of working with Doug, pretty much talking to him every day. And the quote goes, humility is not thinking less of yourself, it's thinking more of others. It's not putting yourself down, just elevating everyone else. So there's something to that. And included in that is the recognition of there are times when you hand the baton to someone else, but like in a situation, recognize, hey, you know what? I'm not the best guy to lead in this moment, in this context. Yeah, I'll take the baton back when we move through this passage. But let's hand it to the person who really has the expertise, experience, et cetera is one of the most significant attributes. And I've got to say, most of the leaders that I respect most, they're really healthy egos, right? When I say a healthy ego, meaning, you know, there's a person there, there's presence, there's a sense of self, but there's. It's not inflated, right? And they're totally comfortable with others shining in the space. So ego is not a bad thing. It's meaning one that's solid and substantial and you can feel it. It's awesome. And it's just one that doesn't take over, right? It's one that allows other healthy egos to emerge and even recognizes when there's need to support and nurture other egos that may not be so healthy and full. So humility, one of the most powerful and profound skills of leadership is quite simply that of listening. And that pertains to listening on many levels. So one is cultivating the ability to really hear what's going on inside of yourself and to pay attention to those messages and signals, tapping into your intuition, tapping into your body wisdom, that's, you know, speaking to your emotions, that's speaking to your mind and really being able to quiet and tune in and go, okay, what is really going on right now? Because those signals bring forth insight and wisdom. So that's one. Two is listening to other human beings really turning off your stories, turning off your perspective, and really just hearing what they have to say, where they're coming from. Because the extent to which you can drop yourself, so to speak, and your perspective and really hear another human being, then you can truly engage with them and support the process of expressing whatever it is that they've got to express, whether it's just clearing something for themselves or it might be an insight into a specific situation that brings wisdom to the table, as it were. So bringing out the wisdom and talent of others requires listening, right? And then the third, the third domain, I would say, of listening is listening to the context, right? Is paying attention to the signals, the marketplace, right? The weather. It's recognizing you don't exist in a bubble, but that you exist in a context. And so it's tuning into, okay, what are customers saying? What are employees saying? It's wanting in the real feedback. It's feeling the social media space and going, what are people saying? And recognizing this is emerging, right? There is a new story emerging, but you're only going to hear it if you listen. And then another one. This is one I particularly paid a lot of attention to, is form of leadership, which I'll call facilitation. Or facilitative leadership, which relates to, in some respect, both the humility and certainly the listening. But facilitation is premised on the idea of emergent processes, right? That an individual is an emergent process. A group, business, the economy, human society, they're all emergent processes that evolve and express themselves over time. And while we don't necessarily make, you know, we don't necessarily influence them on a grand level. What we can do is we can tease out their expression. So with an individual, if you truly listen and your intention is to bring out what wants to be expressed, then facilitation is a process of making easy, right? It's making the emergence and the expression the facile is the root of facilitation, means in Latin and Romanesque languages, means ease or easy. So by recognizing that, you can, the same way you can cultivate a plant to grow, and you can be there to support a child's development in a moment, in a meeting, in a conversation, you can create the context, you can ask the right questions, you can challenge, you can push up against. You can do many things that support the expression, what has the potential to be expressed again by an individual, by a group, by a bigger process. And cultivating the skills of facilitation, I think is one of the most powerful skills for a leader in the current context. And I could go on, but those are some of the most. So recognizing humility as an attribute, listening as just the fundamental skill, and then facilitation is one that's kind of built up a little more complex on top of the listening, but one recognizing that it's a skill that has tremendous value in any context, but certainly in the context of conscious business and conscious capital and the emerging new paradigm.

Yep, what a great top three. Well, let's talk about some of the practices that you engage in, that you recommend we engage in in order to embody the deeper wisdom and these different virtues on a more consistent basis. Do you have any recommended. I know you're big on embodiment practices. You touched on some of it with your top ideas. Do you have any particular concrete practices you recommend for us?

The most basic practice, perhaps, and thus the most profound, is I'll just call it tuning in, you know, and it's just good business. The radio program that I produce or host with you and theos, Brian, I start a program after a brief introduction, with a minute and a half, two minute, essentially breathing and body scanning, right? It's taking a moment, it's feeling your feet on the ground. Right. It's noticing how you're breathing. You know, sometimes we're holding our breath, we don't even know it. Sometimes you're breathing really shallowly and quickly, just tuning in. Oh, okay. That's what's going on now. And then purposefully taking a long, slow, deep inhale, Right? Like, do it now. Just inhale and then exhale. Now this time, imagine you're inhaling through the bottom of your feet and bring your awareness up your body. As you inhale all the way up, feel your chest expanding and hold it for a second and let it out. Then as you inhale again, scanning your body, notice any sensations or tensions in your body. Notice if you're holding in your pelvis or your shoulders or your neck. And don't do anything other than just notice it and keep breathing and exhale and let everything release. As you do this a few times, and you just observe what's going on, and then you can switch from your body to your emotions. Notice if there's anything going on. Are you feeling expansive and joyful or a little, you know, timid and maybe sad or whatever might be going on? If you notice things and then just observe them and breathe with them, they shift. And your awareness of where you are, where and where you are expands and deepens. And you can observe your thoughts the same way. It's like, what's going through your head and watch those thoughts just move through. And you can take a breath and observe and feel your surroundings. Notice if there are any sounds or maybe there's a little air moving or it's cool or it's warm. So tuning into these different channels, just stopping, doing that for a moment, minute or two, is undoubtedly the most powerful thing we can do. And when we did the working for good practice of working for good class this fall or last fall, Brian this was the practice that ran through the whole thing. And then we built on top of it. And, I mean, we had serial entrepreneurs and really experienced business folks who were going, wow, I didn't realize how quickly I run through the halls. It was so different when I just recognized that I was doing it slowed down and the nature of my conversations was completely different, right? The tone. Walter Rob Co CEO OF Whole Foods When I did the radio program and I did the opening, I asked him, so how you doing, Walter? What's up? For you right now, he goes, that was the first breath I took all day. So really the most simple practice for me and for anyone I've come in contact with, this context is really the Most powerful. It's just that pausing for a moment, tuning into what's going on in your physical channel, your emotional channel, your mental channel, your surroundings, is undoubtedly the most powerful. And again, it's not to try and change anything. All you need to do is stop, tune in, recognize what's going on, breathe with it a little bit, and it will change itself. You don't have to try and change it. If there were nothing else I would recommend to anyone or everyone, that would be it.

Well, that's fantastic. And I enjoyed very much that guided meditation. So thank you. Amazing what happens when we just take that moment to be present through our breath. Tuning in. Just fantastic. It's funny because the last question I usually ask is, what's your number one tip? So we'll make that our number one tip, as you just described it, tuning in. And then can you share with us before we wrap up, some of your fundamentals, like the practices that you engage in on a consistent basis that help you stay so plugged in?

So, first of all, Brian, you know I'm a bit of a maniac, right?

The best possible way.

Well, as you said earlier, I'm a kinesthetic. I relate to the world through movement. And I've always been moving. I practice yoga for over 30 years and various martial arts and, you know, five rhythms and chi running. Right now, for the last two years, my most. My favorite and deepest practices are surfing and Brazilian Jiu jitsu. And I do both for, I don't know, four to seven hours a week. The reason I realized that I specifically ended up, or at least now with these practices is that they're very demanding. You're always learning, right? So I really appreciate being stretched. I find myself smarter every time I leave the beach and every time I leave the mat because they are really full being practices. The one, obviously surfing you're in contact with. Well, one, you're in nature, which is profound in itself. Just being there with the open sky and the water usually cold, because I'm in Northern California. But the relationship to where you are that day or that session where you are in relation to your board, other surfers. And then there's the wave, right? So where is it? How is it? Is it rough? Is it clean? Is it big? Is it small? Is it breaking this way or that way? And then in general, and then there's the particular waves. It's lining up, it's catching it, it's riding it. Every wave is a different experience. So it calls for total presence in jiu jitsu. It's different in some respects because you're not outside, but you're dealing similarly with another energy that you can't control, which is another human being. And so you have your own energy, you have your own level of skill. You have your own mindset. So are you muscling, or are you relaxed and using techniques? And then how are you engaging with and responding to the other person? And very technical. So those are my two practices. And again, specifically because they're very demanding physically, which I just like. And they really call for me to show up with presence and to learn, and really in both of them. And this kind of comes back to that conscious awareness practice and the tuning in and the pause is really your most effective at surfing. And in Brazilian jiu jitsu, if you're present and relaxed, not wound up, not tight, not leaning forward, but present and relaxed and responding to what shows up, what meets you with the wave that's showing up, the person and how they're showing up. And it's the same, really. It's the same in business. It's the same in parenting. Am I present to how my daughter is in this moment, and can I meet her? Right? And if she's distracted or something, can I get her to meet me? Or am I muscling or pushing or hurrying? And the results. I'll tell you a quick story and this. You've probably heard this one before. Meryl Fay was 8 at the time. She's 14 now. And it was a different time. I was really overwhelmed almost all the time. And I remember I grabbed her and said, okay, Meryl Faye, let's go. We gotta go. And she stood there. It was like a steel post in the ground. Merrill Faye, now we've gotta go. She looked at me and she said, dad, if you want me to go, you have to connect with me, so connect with me first. And, you know, it was like somebody threw a bucket of cold water on me, you know, because obviously I got it. She was totally right. I stopped, I got down on my knees, I said, you know what? You are so right. I am so sorry, you know, blah. I'm overwhelmed. Okay, let's go. You know, and it's the same thing in business at work. If you want somebody to do something, right? If you want somebody to deliver something or produce something or if. Even if you want to sell something, right? Meet the human being, show up, let go of your crap, be present, and you know what? Find out if it's something that somebody really wants or needs. If they don't want or need it. You know, have a nice conversation and say, see you come back if you want or need it. If they are someone that wants or needs it, you're going to know it and you're going to know how to communicate that in a way that serves them. And if it serves them and they need it, then they'll buy it. But if you're coming with your agenda and you're, and you're pushing, you don't even, you don't, you can't hear, right. So whatever practices cultivate presence and groundedness for you are the practices that are right for you. These are the two that do it for me.

Right on. Well, I was deep in that meditation, riding the waves with you. I love the visual description of all these practices and so appreciate you and your wisdom. And again, tying everything from the just good business, conscious capitalism, our purpose, the interdependence of all of this and your deep practices that you engage in to show up the way that you do, appreciate you and appreciate you taking the time to share your wisdom.

Jeff, it is always a delight.

Right on. All right, well, we will talk soon.

Okay, take care.

We hope you enjoyed this optimal living interview. Please visit BrianJohnson me for more.

Sam.