Heroic Interview: Make Money and Change the World with Marie Forleo

You're listening to Make Money and Change the World, an optimal living interview with.

Marie Forleo and Brian Johnson.

I am so excited to be chatting with Marie Forleo today and she is just awesome. And her B school is extraordinarily popular and powerful. And Marie, thank you for being here, first of all.

Oh, I'm honored to be with you, Brian. This is great.

Right on. Well, I've been such a big fan of you and your work and Alexander, my wife as well, and excited to unpack some of my favorite big ideas. And I know that a big commitment that you have via your B school and all the other work you do is to help people make money and change the world, which are two phrases that go so beautifully together. And I wanted to start with asking you what, what do you think gets in the way of most people getting paid to do what they love to do, make that money and make a difference in the world? What do you think gets in the way?

One of the primary things that gets in the way is people not believing that they can do it, not believing that they're worth it, not believing that their idea is special enough, that their gift is special enough, or that they're deserving of wealth, especially material wealth. I think so many of us, and I will include myself here, have grown up with some pretty interesting ideas, some limiting beliefs around money or just some deep seated thoughts about what it means to be wealthy. Is it good or is it bad? Depending on what kind of religious context you grew up in, if you grew up in any. Even if you didn't grow up in any. I know just many people around the world have a lot of hang ups about money and I think that most of us grow up with that. And so when it comes to creating our own business or even getting paid what we're worth in a career that we love, if we're part of a company that we really appreciate, a lot of people can feel really held back. But I think it all begins within.

Yeah. So then how do you help people transition through that? Like, what's the orientation toward money that's going to best serve us?

Well, you know, the first thing is to recognize it, right. It's kind of like when you have a drinking problem. If you have a drinking problem, it's like the first step is to go, okay, I'm out of denial, I have a problem. The same thing about your thoughts about money rather than a drinking problem. It's usually a thinking problem. So I think the first best step is to say, yeah, and not be ashamed about it, not be embarrassed about it, not think that it's is something that has to last forever. But to really get curious and investigate how you operate around money. Do you get tight when you pay your bills every month? Do you start to get nervous and sweat or feel a tremendous amount of anxiety or pay attention to the thoughts that you're thinking in your head or what is really the language and the words that you're using as you talk to yourself, like, oh, there's never going to be enough, I can never get ahead, or no one would ever pay me for that. No one's ever going to. Who am I? I'm not that special. Why would anyone want to buy anything from me? So if you just start to bring awareness to those thoughts, I think that's the first step in being able to change or transform them. And one of my core beliefs and something that I share with everyone that I work with and everyone that I can reach is that every single human being is on the planet for a reason. You know, God or the universe, whatever you believe in doesn't create any extra peeps, you know. So each of us has our own unique set of gifts. And I believe our life purpose is to not only discover what those gifts are, but to. To use them in service of others. And when you really get that and you start living that way, a lot of the hangups that all of us have around money start to just naturally fall away because you have less attention on what am I getting for myself. And your attention and your energy is more focused on what you can give, what you can provide, and how you can make a difference. That's that magical energy shift where money starts to come in and opportunities start to come in. And ironically, you almost start to focus more, less on money and more of it shows up.

So beautiful. One of my favorite writers, guy named Steve Chandler, talks about wealth creation as a vehicle through profound service. So we create wealth through profound service. I just love the way you articulate that. And using our gifts, I like to say using our greatest gifts and greatest service to the world and let open and allow that wealth to be a reflection of that value and that service that we're creating in the world. Right? Yes, right on. Well, we could talk about that for a week. That's great. Well, it was really interesting. I was watching your interview with Tony Robbins and it was amazing to hear you describe your story and some of the parallels. And you mentioned kind of your deep intuition of you just knew when you were on the trading floor that it just wasn't what you were there to do. And then you had that moment where you read about life coaching and you just. You knew there was just a deep intuition. It was funny because I've had very, very similar moments where I literally pulled off the 405 and threw up on my way home from work, you know, and I'm like, this is a good sign. It's not it. And, you know, looking up and seeing my boss's boss's boss and saying, I don't want that job, and then feeling the fear of, but what do I want to do? And having that heroic courage to step into that force of the unknown. I'd love to, if you can share about. How do we deal with that fear? How have you dealt with that fear of. Of kind of leaving the comfortable and really carving out the known when you're just getting going, when someone's listening to this and saying, yeah, that's nice, but I got bills to pay and all these different things going on. How do you frame that?

Well, I think for all of us, the recognition that our time in physical form on planet Earth is limited. We are not going to be here forever unless there's major breakthroughs that could happen over the next 15 to 20 years. All signs point to the fact that we all know we're headed to the same destination, which means that at some point we're going to die. And if you start looking at your life and that could be a morbid thought, I think it's a really inspiring thought. I think it's a really enlightening and energetic thought, which is like, you know what? I need to get off my buns and do what I want to do in this world. I'm never going to be happy if I don't follow my intuition. And to your point, someone says, oh, yeah, it's all great and good, but what about the bills to pay? You know, there's always a way to pay the bills. And throughout history and throughout, you know, reading magazines and watching television shows, we've all heard stories of people that come from extraordinary circumstances of challenge and figure out a way to make it happen. Whether they downsize their house and they move to a new neighborhood, whether they take on extra jobs at night or at the weekend, or they make these changes in their world that may be uncomfortable, that may not be the thing that everyone else does, but that are absolutely necessary to get where you want to go. I believe when you hear that calling within, when you get that intuitive hit and you know there is no other way for you to go but to step out into the unknown and to create the life that you want. You will find a way to make it happen. And I know that may sound like, oh, that's all well and good, but everyone that I've been privileged enough to meet, from the Richard Branson's to the Tony Robbins to the Oprah's, to people that, you know, you and I wouldn't know their name, but they're extraordinary human beings who've created a life that they love. That's their story. We can go on and on for days, right? There's every circumstance is different and people come up with a million and one reasons why I can't do something. But people who change the world, they focus on what they can do. They focus on being willing. They focus on, I have something I want to get to, I have something that I want to create. I'm going to find a way. And when you have that mindset, that's when opportunities start to open up. You get ideas, you start to see new possibilities for ways to change. And that's where I think it all begins.

Right on. It's kind of that Joseph Campbell's phrase of follow your bliss. And when you do that, when you truly commit wh Murray style, you know, magical things happen. Hidden doors you didn't know were there suddenly appear and opportunities exist. We just didn't know. So love that again, there's another week long conversation for us.

Yeah. And you know, it's natural though, right? It's natural to feel that fear. And I mean, I still feel it at times. It's much, much less than it ever was before. But I think that's part of being human. And to think that that's not going to be around or that other people don't have it and they just forge ahead, I think that's a little bit ignorant.

Yeah, right on. Well, this is one of the things I talk about too is that we all have fear. You know, the only ones who don't have fear are anyone who says they're never afraid of anything. A guy named David Reynolds says is both stupid and lying. Right. So we all have fear now. This is great. So we recognize that we all have fear. And then what do you do when you feel that fear? What did you do maybe earlier on? What do you do now? What do you recommend one does when that fear gremlin kind of creeps in?

Well, there's a couple of things. One of the things that I've always done is I like to look at the worst case scenario. Because I like to just face it and say, okay, if I quit my Wall street job and I go and try and figure out what I'm supposed to do and let's say I don't get a good job right away, what's the worst thing that's going to happen? Okay, well I would work a couple of restaurant jobs to pay my rent and yeah, maybe I wouldn't feel my ego, wouldn't be served that much, but would I still eat? Yes. You know what I mean? Would I figure out a way? Yes, I would. So at every different turn when fear comes out, like really what is honestly the worst thing that's going to happen? And nine times out of 10, usually actually 10 times out of 10, I can deal with it. I know that I can deal with it. And I think what most people do is they just kind of stop and they won't even look at what the worst case scenario is. So the fear is almost this ghost that has no shape. It's ominous, it like overtakes them. But if you really break it down and look at the reality, most things that we fear are really easy to deal with and they probably will never happen. Those worst case scenarios, that's one of my methods for dealing with it.

That's cool, give us another one. This is great.

The other one, as far as dealing with fear, if I'm really just like, oh God, I don't know how this is going to turn out, rather than hold onto that myself, I talk about it. I'll talk about it with people that I trust, people who are like minded, that share a similar form philosophy in terms of creation, in terms of having a life that they really love. They want to be fully self expressed, they want to leave with their song fully sung and being totally used up by the end of their life. And you know when you talk with friends about fear and say, hey, this is what's going on, this is what I'm afraid of. If it's someone who's supportive and who loves you, they'll be able to a listen. And oftentimes when you just speak things out loud, I find that they transform. If someone really, really hears you, you can almost hear your own wisdom and you'll see new possibilities. Or they'll be able to give you a fresh perspective and say, hey, I can totally understand that. I know somebody went through it, this is what happened with them. Or here's what's going to happen if it goes wrong. And here's what could happen if it goes right, and they can reflect back to you and give you a little perspective and a little support, that can be incredibly transformative.

That's so cool. You have a third tip.

We're on a roll. You know, in terms of fear, for me, if I actually let myself experience the physical sensation of fear, this we could talk about for a week, but without going into the drama in my thoughts about what it means. So for most of us, fear is actually, you know, we have different sensations in our body, like the atoms are vibrating at a certain rate. Maybe for some of us, it's like a tightness in our chest, or for others, it's like a heaviness in our belly or perhaps a constriction in our throat. And if you focus on the physical sensation, like what you're actually feeling physically and do not engage with the story that's simultaneously happening in your brain, and you just stay focused in the present moment, the sensation, the feeling, the experience of fear actually dissipates pretty quickly. My fiance teaches a course called Committed Impulse. And one of the things he taught me, which I think is genius, if you ever fully experience any physical sensation and really are present with it without judging it, without resisting it, just really there with it, it never lasts more than seven to 10 seconds.

Yeah. That's awesome. Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for sharing those three fantastic ideas. And this is kind of tied to failure, right? So we talked about the idea of what's the worst case scenario. Brilliant. Get that ghost, draw some lines around it and see it for what it is. Right. And then know we're going to be strong enough to deal with it. So let's talk about failure and. And the importance of reorienting our relationship. To quote failure and how it's such an important part of the success process. Can you riff on that?

Yeah. You know, one thing, it was something that we tweeted out recently. And forgive me, because I don't know who said this. It certainly wasn't me. I didn't make this up, but I love this. It was like, I win or I learn, but I never fail. I win or I learn, but I never fail. And I thought that was freaking awesome. Like, if you just break that down and think about it, it's like, okay, either you succeed or you learn something. Nothing's really a failure. And if I look back at my own career and I look back at things that I poured money in, like an example, I remember one time, probably about four years ago, I had this idea. I was working on a particular coaching program. And I wanted it all housed on my website, on my own domains, and I wanted this whole member area and it was kind of before a lot of the plug and play things that we have today. And I sank about, I don't know, five or six grand into this development project, which a is a lot of money in anyone's eye. But especially a couple years ago for me, that was major, major, major, major. And the whole thing crashed and burned. And, you know, I could look at that as a failure. But I can't tell you how many times that experience has served me through all of the different things I've learned just about how to really choose programmers, how to trust my intuition, how to really plan things and allocate my assets and my intelligence and all of my resources to the projects that make the most sense at the right time. And ultimately it didn't take the company down, it didn't take me down. Like nothing bad happened, really. So I think if you can look back at the stories that you've told yourself in life about where you quote, unquote, failed and really re examine that with fresh eyes and with a fresh heart and look through the lens. What did I learn? How did I grow? What did that teach me? How did that serve me? How did that help me get to a better, bigger, more expanded, more loving place? You'll see that there really are no failures. There are only places to learn.

So genius. And this is where freedom exists, right? And this is. I'm a huge fan of positive psychology and the science of all this stuff in just looking at it through what they would call the growth mindset versus the fixed mindset. So it's basically I win or I learn, but I never fail. Just what a great, profound thought. This ties to one of my Just really enjoyed your New Year's video and you had a great line in there where you said, you don't have to get it right, you just have to get it. Good going. I just thought it was one of those like, yeah, that's not only a tweetable moment, but that's it right there, right? You don't have to get it right, you just have to get it going. So I'm a huge fan of getting to market, churning, letting the market tell us what works, what doesn't. You know, John Mackey from Whole Foods says, ready, fire, aim. And so many of us get stuck in that aim, aim, aim process. But tell us about that. Tell us about that big idea.

Yeah, this is particularly big. I mean, I think it's an issue for many of us, especially many of us who consider ourselves creatives. We're creators. We're constantly wanting to put things out into the world. And also we want to do a great job. You know, we want to be of ultimate service. We want to put out our best work. However, and I've seen this to be true because I happen to be lucky enough to be in touch with and in community with a lot of women, women in particular have this one bad perfectionism. Wanting to be perfect, it's like a part of our instinct, and it could so screw us up. And, you know, one of the things that MarieTV has really taught me and I continue to do, and it's. It's really fun for me, is I'm learning in public. It's like, it's this amazing opportunity to screw up in public. We don't get things right. There's things that go wrong. There's times when we fully edited something and we're like, oh, my God. Like, there's selling errors. There's, you know, just all kinds of stuff that goes wrong. But for me, I always have to ask myself, like, you know, I'm giving it my best. And perfectionism is one of those places for me where I can just beat myself up, get myself exhausted, hold things back. So it's a real opportunity for me to shed some of that and not lower my standards at all. And this is actually something that Tony Robbins taught me, you know, perfectionist. And being perfect. Perfect is really the lowest standard there is, because there is no standard. Perfection is really. It's not achievable. So if that's your standard, you don't have any. And I thought that was really freeing because it gives us room to create art and to be human. And one of the pieces of feedback that we get all the time is how people appreciate that things aren't perfectly polished. It's this kind of interesting paradox because while we put our best effort in, we're always taking things to the next level. I leave in flubs. I leave in things that my editors will say, do you want me to edit that? I'm like, no, that was a human moment when we shoot things. And sometimes you're like, hey, Marie, you flubbed that word. I'm like, I don't care. Leave it in. As long as the content. You know what I mean? The essence of it, what we're trying to share wasn't confusing. The point is coming across. Leave it, because it gives all of us a chance to take a breath and to Be human and to just get things out the door.

Right on. And then what you said so well in the video, too, was to show it from where you started to where you are now, just so beautifully articulated that, look, this is what it was like the first day. Now, if I didn't start until I had this polished production value that I do now, I never would have done one video, but I had to go through, you know, version 1, 1.1, 1.2, up to where I am today in order to get there. So just that willingness to experiment and to allow the creative process to evolve is such a powerful thing, I think.

Yeah. And I think one of the things that can also stop us up, too, is comparison. You know, we're always comparing where we are right now to someone perhaps that we admire or to someone who's been doing it for 20 or 30 years. And it's like, hello, you know, every pro was once an amateur. Anyone who you admire, whether they're in entertainment, whether they're in personal development, whether they're in business, whether they're in politics, in anything, any field imaginable, every single one of those people had their own first day. Every single one of those people had their own first attempt, their first time standing up and speaking in front of people, their first time doing a video. And everyone that I've had the privilege to know and to talk to you always tells me about, oh, my God, you should have saw me back in the day. Was I a mess? And we've all had that, so there's no harm. It's like starting where we are, taking that first step, being willing for it to not be perfect, but to just get it going is the only way you can get to where you want to go. You know, there's this great line from Julia Cameron's the Artist's Way, and she asked this question, you know, someone wanting to do something, do you know how old I'll be when I finally learn to play the piano? And she's like, yeah, the same age you'll be if you don't. And it's very true, you know, as far as starting any kind of project and feeling intimidated to not compare ourselves and to just get going right where we are.

That's so cool. One of the other interviews I recently did was with Sony Lie Buirsky, who's one of the leading scientists on happiness, of course, and she was talking about social comparison and how that's just so detrimental to us to spend all of our time comparing. And she says the happiest People among us, when they do think about other people, they're celebrating their successes. They're not comparing themselves and finding ways to come up short and all this stuff. And I just love the way you unpack that. With everyone had their first day, are we willing to have that level of humility and confidence to be imperfect and to make move from there? Well, one of the things I wanted to talk about too, one of your videos, that they're all funny, they're all awesome and are clear, etc. Etc. And just real. I loved your. The fourth grader in me loves this phrase. Like you said the shit sandwiches one. Exactly. It's like just saying shit sandwiches is so great, but you frame that so beautifully. Where someone asked you, I'm having challenges and basically life has given them a shit sandwich. I thought your response, talking about gratitude and perspective was just so profoundly on that. I wanted to have you riff on that quickly right now if you could.

Oh yeah. I mean, if you think about problems that are relative, I mean, most of the folks listening to this interview right now, most of us, right, are incredibly blessed. Incredibly blessed. Like what we consider problems. Other people would literally die for some of our quote unquote problems. And anytime that I ever find myself having a little pity party, which I think we all do, right from time to time, it's a wake up call time. And you know, just the other day, Brian, I was literally sick. Remember when you were talking about when you had to pull over on the 405 and to throw up? I was nauseous because I was reading about some of the things that have recently happened in India, particularly with one young woman being gang raped. And so I'm reading all these pieces on the New York Times and it's just like it was killing me. And it motivated me and inspired me to say, how can I do more? How can I do more? And I looked around my life and all the quote, unquote little piddly things that would frustrate me or that I consider problems or would want to complain in my own mind about when you have a broader perspective on the world and you really pay attention to our global society, to what all of humanity is going through. And again, whatever issue kind of lights you up inside, take a look at that. Take a look at how I forget the numbers. Exactly. But how many billions of people live on less than $2 a day? $2 a day. And you know when you remember that and you think about what other people's lives are like compared to yours and how can you be of service, how can you help? Whether it's sending good energy out, sending prayers, paying more attention to your family, bringing more love into the world, doing the work that you're meant to do. There's a million ways to make a difference. And it doesn't always mean writing a check or going out and becoming an activist or anything like that. But that idea of a stitched sandwich, it's like most people that we know and that we come in contact with. Brian, we don't know shit about shit sandwiches. Really?

Yeah. So profound. And then to be able to alchemize that from. Okay, let's take that perspective and then let's figure out back to the starting point. How do we use our greatest gifts and greatest service to the world and get out of that? Me, me, me. Focus and find a way to let the light shine through us. Well, one of the things we named our business Entheos after the two words that make up the word enthusiasm. Entheos. God within. Right. And for, for us, it comes down to our fundamentals. What are the things that we do on a day to day basis? And Robin Sharma, another one of my favorite writers and friends, says that different people, great people, differ in what they express, but they're all consistent on their fundamentals. Who they are and what they do on a day to day basis and how they show up, they're consistent on those fundamentals. I'd love to hear from you about your fundamentals. What are the things, the practices that you do? I know you're big into a bunch of different things, but I'd love to hear you describe like your key things that just keep you plugged in so you can shine with that God within and give your gifts to the world and live with the radiant enthusiasm you live with. What do you do on a day to day basis?

So from a practice standpoint, there's one ritual that Josh, my beloved and I share, which is virtually every morning didn't happen this morning because we actually woke up at like 6am and we went to a hot yoga class together, which was his own adventure. But usually we wake up and we have tea together in bed with our dog. And it's just this nurturing time for me to really connect with myself with him and to experience love. Like real love. It's not get up and rush and try and get things done or ba ba ba ba ba ba ba, which you know, for all of us that can become pretty routine and to really make sacred time. To sacred time. And for me, love is One of the most powerful forces in life. I feel like it's my reason for being on earth. So making that the first priority of every day is huge. Meditation is big. Sometimes it comes in the form of, again, sitting in bed and it can be 10 minutes, or if I happen to be in a yoga class, it can go right at the end of that, which is awesome green juice, which is a ritual to keep my body eating as many and having as much great nutrients as possible. It just makes me feel good because being busy and sometimes being on the go can be a little challenging when you travel a lot to eat really healthy food. So if I have that base of my nurturing time with Josh, some meditation, some green juice, and then some exercise, those are like my non negotiables. If those things happen, and they happen most days, I consider everything else a success. Like anything else that happens, I am good to go. But from a more kind of a emotional, philosophical perspective, I know that my purpose on this earth is to have a great time and help others do the same. So if I'm having fun and I have my playful sense of humor where I'm not taking myself or anything too seriously, I feel like I am fulfilling God's purpose for me on this planet. There's been times when, like I said, oh, I wonder if people don't take me seriously because I'm such a freaking goofball. I really got clear to the fact that that's one of my gifts. Be goofy. What you were calling, like that fourth grader sense of humor, like, shit sandwich. It's. I cannot not laugh at things like that. You know, like sophomore humor. It's just me. So making sure that for me personally, there's humor and lightness and a sense of play in everything. That's one of my fundamentals, like, keeps me.

That is so fantastic. I love it. And we share exercise, nutrition, and I call it attention training through the meditation as core practices. Now, Alexander and I just started doing a daily number of kisses a day, just as a fun little fundamental of, you know, keep track and let's make sure we're at least touching lips at least 10 times a day. But I love the tea. The love tea is how I'm framing you guys. Time you and Josh in the morning. So cool. Right on. Well, just a few more things I'd love to touch on quickly. One, your biggest Aha. Have you had like a really big aha moment in your life related to business, related to how you're living, that you'd like to share yeah.

You know, and this one is unexpected. This one, for me, was so interesting. I actually talked about it when I was on Oprah, but it was one of those things that didn't make it into the episode. You know, we taped a bunch of stuff when I was on Super Soul Sunday. And the show is an hour, but as you know, with commercials, it always gets kind of whittled down. And she asked me this question, like, what's been my greatest lesson? And I actually surprised myself when this came out of my mouth. And later, I realized that it was true that my vulnerability is my greatest strength. And as a woman who's very driven and very ambitious and loves to build and create and do all this stuff in the world, I didn't expect that to be my Aha. But after I said it.