Heroic Interview: Olympic-Style Peak Performance with Coach John Herdman

Foreign. This is Brian. Welcome back to the Optimal Living Interview series. Today, I'm thrilled to be chatting with John Herdman. John is a new virtual friend, and we connected via our Optimal Living membership program when he joined a little while back. He is the head coach of the Canadian national women's soccer team, which won bronze in London and is off to Rio soon. And he's just a really cool guy. I checked out his TED Talk, which I highly recommend, and we've just hit it off virtually. So I'm thrilled to be connected and really looking forward to unpacking some ideas on peak performance and all that good stuff. John, I appreciate you taking the time.

Thanks, Brian, and appreciate you giving us the time. Nice to chat with you. I've been listening for so long, now I get the chance to actually chat.

Right on. When I get the opportunity to listen to you and your wisdom, I want to start with your story and how you got to where you are and, you know, kind of looking at it through the lens of purpose 101. What did you learn in the process? How did you get here? And what might others kind of pick up from the wisdom you've gained along the way?

Yeah, that's a great question. I think one of the most important things a person can do to really help understand who they are, what brought them to where they're at, and to really get a sense of their purpose is to unpack their tapestry and look at where they draw strength from within, a tapestry of their life. So when I am asked that question of how has your life shaped you to who you are? Life absolutely has shaped me. But understanding the moments in my life where I now can constantly draw strength from is absolutely crucial. So when I look back on my life, there were a number of important moments that I look to, from childhood into teenage years, then into adult life that become my anchors. And I always can come back to them as to the reasons I am who I am. And that's the positive side, the side that will push new levels of performance, the side that will aim to strive to be better every day, and the side that's resilient and will fight for what I believe in. So there's a number of moments, Brian, and I think it's a wonderful way for any of the listeners to. To go through a journey with themselves, their peers. I've done this with my players, with your family, to really be clear on the moments you can draw strength from. And, you know, I can draw strength from a number, you know, based on my childhood, some of Them positive experiences, you know, whether that be in winning the under 12 disco dancing championship, which I don't tell too many people, you know, from moments of real adversity, you know, with my mother suffering with alcoholism, my father, you know, having a mental breakdown, you know, living on my own for a period of time, you know, being beaten to an inch of my life in a street fight. A whole raft of things that I can just mark to say, well, you got through that and you learn from that, and you now can draw strength from those moments. So, I mean, there's probably too many at this point, but certainly a couple of key moments would be meeting my now wife, Claire, at 18 years of age and understanding the importance of a connection to something bigger than you and being part of a connection with someone bigger than you. I think that's been key. A key moment would be graduating from university and having clarity at that point in academically, I have a foundation that I can build on. And then from, I guess, a coaching standpoint, recognizing that every day I have an opportunity to coach people, and whether that's at work, at home, or in my field of sport. And that coaching opportunity was born out of a coaching experience. Working with young children and realizing how much you can impact somebody with your words, your actions and your deeds in a sporting context, which can be translated through any part of life. So, look, I probably need about 5 to 10 hours to work through my tapestry. It's pretty complicated and moves backwards, sideways and forwards, but certainly I encourage anyone to go through that process and draw it out and make it something that you can see every day.

That's awesome. And just recognizing the fact that it wasn't a perfectly linear. This is the day that I had the idea and it just all kind of unfolded perfectly. It is all of that coming together, that tapestry. We could obviously unpack that, as you said, for five to 10 hours. I want to hear when you think. When I. When I hear you talk about coaching, I'm curious what your core intention is as a coach. Like when you approach your team, what is it that you're thinking on a. On, particularly on an individual level with your players, that you're trying to elicit.

Yeah, look, you start with the individual. I think that's the most important thing with any team setting. And then within the context of what that team environment is about. But the simplicity, Brian, is to come back to helping people unlock their own potential. So that's the key word. It's not helping someone unlock potential, it's helping them unlock their potential. And I think that's right at the core of any coaching. And people call it the posh word for its empowerment, but it's not really. It's about people just seeing that they have all the tools available to them if they believe and are provided with the right environment to achieve. Sounds corny, but after all this time coaching, it's that simple. I've watched the human being achieve some things that a human being wasn't supposed to have achieved. I've watched a five foot female soccer player compete against a six foot female soccer player and win a bronze medal. When you can get people aligned to believing that they are capable and then create the environment that they can go on and achieve it, but then be really specific about them achieving something that's greater than them, then a purpose has true meaning and their goals have true meaning. And with that true meaning, you're able to light a fire that burns so strong in them. So yeah, I mean, all that's sort of clustered together, but it's about helping people unlock their potential and they need clarity in what they're trying to unlock and a belief that they can unlock something.

Let's go to the belief. So how do you coach your players to have that belief? How do you cultivate it?

Well, I think that it's a multifaceted approach. I think one part is that the constant work on craft, that mantra of we will work harder and do more than you, but smarter. And I think that's a real craft mentality. Players within my environment, they have very clear role outlines, they have very clear attainment targets. They know what they have to achieve, they set those things and move towards them. So having real clarity in some of the targets that are important to them, being successful, and then having that willpower, that drive of self mastery, that craft obsession to go after it, that's a massive part of driving the belief. Because people, you'll never really, when it starts hitting the fan, you've got to realize that unless you put the work in, you don't have a foundation to draw any willpower from. Your willpower just fades very quickly. It actually becomes very ephemeral. It's there one second, gone the next there. But you know, true willpower is born out of, you know, that time spent, you know, at the tree chopping every time. And I think that's going to be the key to the first part of it. It's the work ethic and a commitment to craft. So the next part of it is then the culture of. Seeing beyond a performance. And this is the improvisation component. This is their creativity piece. So there's something about combining hard work with evolution and creativity and expanding people's ability to see a different performance, a different version of them. So that's not just cracking away at your craft, which could be just making sure you stay fit, you stay strong. It's about being able to cast your mind into the future. It's being able to cast your mind into a version of yourself you haven't seen yet and then being able to design that. So we'll do that in our environment by looking to create a hybrid version of yourself. So what would you look like if you combined all of these different things into you? What could that look like now? So I think there's an element of being able to see some of the best soccer players in the men's game, being able to look at, you know, sports athletes from Ultimate Fighter, Ultimate Fighting Championship, ufc, and just drawing parallels. And that's where I think, you know, hard work meets the creativity, which then spawns new versions of you. And I think you have to constantly have that balance because players and people can get, you know, on that hamster's wheel on a daily basis of just going through the grind, working on craft, you know, hitting the hammer against the rock, hoping it's going to break at some point, knowing it will at some point, but not realizing that there's a chisel out there or there's a pneumatic drill that you could use or you could combine. You know, it's not ability to get out of the streets of daily life and get into the clouds. I call it like a glass elevator, just being able to elevate into where intuition, wisdom, where vision sits and away from the street. And I think what I aim to do with my players is to build that self mastery piece where they can work on craft as well as project to the future and a better version of them. Us, our team, our country. So a big part of what we do, we talk about better Canada, how do we make our country better as our starting point? We represent our country, you know, how do we make it better? And then we were able to sort of drill that down to the streets, which is, you know, how do you actually make it better with what you do? So I don't know if that fully answers the question. I mean, but if I just use those two themes as a starting point to help people get the best out themselves. Vision, clear and then the passion, slash, discipline. You're motivated enough to drive a discipline, which is the constant craft development. Craft mastery.

Yeah, I love it. Clarity on vision, that ideal. I love the vision of kind of looking at people you admire and how do you integrate them and then just hitting the rock, right, and that craft, the mastery. I'm actually interviewing Anders Ericsson. Deliberate practice, genius. Shortly after you and I chat, which is pretty exciting. So that idea of just showing up, right, and pushing ourselves and just going a little bit further outside of our comfort zones consistently is the root of believing in ourselves. You don't get that by fantasizing about some dream that you aren't showing up and executing on daily, eh?

Yeah, I mean, I think that's the hamster's wheel. You know, it's. And the deliberate part of this, and that's what people love about the environment they work in with us, with the women's national team, the players love how deliberate everything is. You know, I'm currently working on the Australian tactical blueprint. It'll be our first game in the Olympics, and we break down the skill sets required, the tactics required, and then for, you know, 10 training sessions, the players will work deliberately on honing their craft and then looking at the opportunities that they can bring to a match. I mean, it's not just showing up, it's being clear. But then elevating to know that winning that match will tune in over 3 million Canadians, which will then inspire a group of youngsters to continue to play the game or take up our game, which then inspires a country to be, you know, healthy, rock their fundamentals, as you call it. You know, there's a greater purpose to everything that we do here. But it comes down to, you know, Ericsson's, you know, some of his theories on just being absolutely deliberate with. With your work.

That's so good. So many different ways we can go.

Let's go.

Let's fast forward to right before the match. So. So let's just say, you know, you guys are in the locker room getting ready to go. What are you going to tell the team? Or what do you tell the team in situations like that?

I think it's. I mean, we have a pretty refined process, you know, building into games. We brought in top neuroscientists, psychologists, physiologists, that just help us to understand how to optimally prepare the group for a performance. But, you know, linking in your work should be done prior to even saying anything before they go out there. I mean, there's all sorts can happen on a day. A bus can be late, which means you have to interject. But the reality is the team should feel light, bright and clear. And that is the goal of any coach, any leader. When you need performance, you need a feeling and a culture. You should be able to take a barometer in and have that feeling of light, bright and clear. Clarity drives intent, which drives intensity in a performance. So you need clarity and clarity. The opposite for me is confusion and complexity. So clarity is about simplicity.

It's.

It's about value based simplicity. On the opposite side of complexity. If you think, you know, simplicity with little value never really crosses complexity. I'm talking about simplicity with massive value that's crossed complexity but has come back to simplicity that under pressure people can perform it and under fatigue people can perform it. And that is the art, I think, of any leader in any coach in any business to know that your team can perform when the bad weather sets in, when the temperature heats up. That's the key. So that's clear. When I talk about light and bright, it should have a feeling of lightness. Not too many tactics, not too many rules, not too many distractions, not too much clutter around the place. So there's a process of completely decluttering the environment. Whether that's social, emotional things that might be going on with coaches or players, whether it's mental things that are creeping in, whether it's the media or parents, etc. You know, light, bright and clear is our goal to take the team over a four day usual four day prep for a game that we reach a point where you can sense it, you can feel it, you can hear it. Yeah. And see it.

Right on.

So you don't have to say much. Brian. I think that's the answer in the dressing room. There's too many any given Sunday speeches that you see that they're just not real. Yeah, yeah. You know, to.

You haven't done your job if that's what you're having to do. Right.

You're right. You're right. That's your last ditch, you know.

Yeah, that's great. We didn't properly prepare, so let me see if I can get you fired up right now. That's awesome. Again, so much there. Let's kind of turn to a different angle. Talk to us about adversity. So what's your number one tip in terms of dealing with adversity?

I think the number one tip is to create adversity. I think that's the best tip that I can, you know, give anyone. Create adversity. Create it so you can deal with it. Without it, you can't get stronger and you know, all the stories that I've seen and in the pathway to excellence, you know, I have a young lady in my team who's, you know, 19 years, 20 years of age. She got the, you know, FIFA World Youth player of the year last year. She's just been voted into the FIFA pro team, which means she's one of the best 11 players in the world in her position. But when you looked at her tapestry, her life tapestry, the adversity she'd met from the age of 6 through to 16 ultimately shaped her into being the best player in her position in the world. At this point, I cannot emphasize it enough. The more adversity, the better. I mean, you don't put yourself into situations where, you know, it's life threatening for sure. But what I feel, Brian, is, you know, we've become as we get older, too risk averse. Our cultures become almost Teflon, like nothing sticks and no one's willing to really accept accountability or responsibility so they can grow from it. We're too quick to give athletes and people crutches, making excuses for their failures. And we have to let our children and our employees and our family members fail. Because without failure, there's no respawning, there's no regrowth. You know, I think that's one of the keys to success in life. Like, you know, a little analogy, I'd say, you know, my wife is ultra protective of my children. I'm sort of Mr. You know, go and climb the biggest tree you can find. And we argue constantly about it and you know, it's a nice yin and yang that goes on in our family environment. But you know, I keep saying, you know, you go and climb that tree. If he falls out, what happens? What's the worst thing? He breaks his arm. Okay, he breaks his arm. So what happens then? He goes to the doctors, to a hospital. He gets looked after by doctors, doctors. He, you know, decides that the care that he got there is what lights a fire for him to end up becoming a doctor to follow a passion for caring for people. He falls out of the tree, breaks his arm and finds he hates trees. So he decides to be a lumberjack and cut them all down. I mean, there's something, I know it sounds stupid what I'm saying, but there's just something about exposing people to those oh, crap moments and letting people deal with it without pulling them out of the pit too quickly. Let them experience it. It's not being sadistic. It's about allowing people to take some accountability, responsibility to Learn and evolve. And that's what I think is important. Find diversity and expose yourself to it. Be my number one hit.

I love it. I love it. And it's kind of one of the themes we talk about a lot is anti fragility. So, you know, not being fragile or even resilient, but seeing that you're gonna get stronger from all those times that you're challenged and struggle. Right. So just to break that down, I get it. On the, on the kids side, give us an example in your own life, how do you strive to embrace adversity and kind of invite that in as a, as a channel to growth? If you're open to sharing?

Yeah, I think it's being ready to take some risks with what I'm doing in my daily job. I mean, in my job that I have, I'm constantly scrutinized by media, public, and I could make a lot of safe decisions, but I'm not wired up like that. For whatever reason, I've been a risk taker in my life. And I'm not talking crazy risk. Like I don't gamble. Yeah. I mean, I don't go jump out of airplanes and things like that. I mean, I look at my life and go, right. I was a lecturer at a university, at a, you know, a good business and coaching at an English Premier League club and decided to go to New Zealand in a job that was probably three steps backwards. Massive risk to me and my family at the time, but a huge opportunity because I've seen something different. I mean, most people would have sat comfortable. It's what our parents were telling us to do. I mean, it's that sort of risk. It's about, you know, seeing something else within that no one else can see, if you know what I'm saying. Like, everyone can see the reasons why you shouldn't, but it's seeing that one or two reasons that no one else can see and then going for it. And I like to think, you know, I'll do that. As a coach. I'm not frightened to change tactics in games, change players that, you know, people didn't expect, give young players an opportunity. Yeah. So I think, you know, when you talk about adversity, I'm prepared to put myself in those adverse situations. Like, great example, in the build up to this Olympics and the Women's World cup in 2015, I brought tier one teams to Canada for matches knowing that we would get beaten. Their matches most likely in front of 30,000 of our home fans. And an exposure of the critics because there's something about, you know, you wanted to expose the group to those tough, tough matches, you know, so they could build the thick skin and the resilience required, you know, to process it, move on and deal with your next task. So I don't know, when you talk about adversity, it's calculated. It's not just crazy adversity, let's just go and do something and expose yourself. But other aspects of adversity you can't control. And that's things that are happening to your family. I think with that. On an adversity point of view, if your fundamentals are solid physically, you are exercising, you've got good nutritional habits, you've got good sleep habits, you can get through anything because you can muster the energy to focus and bring clarity at times you need it. And it's about mustering that energy at the right time. And what I see is people struggling the adversity situations when they've let their adversity tip the balance of their life. And that's where it becomes very difficult. So when I'm telling people to go towards adversity, if you're unbalanced in your fundamentals, it's very difficult to get through it because your natural reaction will be emotional and you'll have a fight flight and freeze response. And your brain's naturally going to try and take you away from adversity anyway. So if you're not strong and feeling balanced and energized, your brain will take you as far away from adversity and keep you in what I'd call mediocrity normality for the rest of your days. So getting your fundamentals right, Brian, I think is crucial to be able to summon the energy and the willpower to be able to hit adversity and move towards it and through it rather than away from it, which is a key to embracing adversity.

Right on. The more you invite, the more important those fundamentals become, right?

Yeah, they do. I think that's your biggest challenge. You have to be ready to move towards challenges. In my profession, and I know the players I work with, they, you know, to go and put yourself out there in front of 12 million Canadians that'll tune in on TV, half the population, you've got to have an ability to move towards that because naturally, as I say, the brain is taking you away from it.

I want to shift gears a little bit and tell me, you've worked with so many great athletes. What differentiates the. All the ones you're working with are obviously at A world class level. But what makes the truly elite of that group different from the rest?

Well, I've worked with one player particularly a lady called Christine Sinclair. She's the second all time leading goal scorer in women's soccer internationally and coming and doing and achieving that in a country like Canada where maybe she hasn't got the same supporting cast as the Abby Wambachs and Mia Hamms, you know, people that she's overtaken and is chasing is pretty remarkable. So when, when you start to work with a player of that, that quality, and I'm talking Michael Jordan type quality, you start to realize a few things. And what you realize is they're pretty normal people. And what I mean normal is they, they just simplify life. You know, life isn't overly complicated for them. They have their sport and their family. And that is what I've noticed with this lady Christine. She has two key things and those two key things are easy to manage for. Her attention isn't, you know, placed over too many things and she's able to then give attention to what's important at the right time. So yeah, it's difficult to really encapsulate what separates her but it's, there's a real simplicity to her. She just loves her football, her soccer, loves her family, two simple things. And her life seems very clutter free because of that. Now when I say love football, there's an obsession there. Like she would pick up a ball and play it at any time, anywhere with anyone. She wants to do extra all the time. You know, you have to hold her back because of sports science. Now back in the day she'd just be out training every day. And then the second part of this is she just loves playing. Like results or no results. Like people talk about an obsession with winning. She just loves playing the game. So win, lose or draw, she just loves playing the game. She hates losing but loves playing. And there's this sort of obsessive genuine love for that not fuels a commitment towards self mastery and you know, all the other things that she has to do that, you know, sit around the game. So what separates those people is a propensity to move to a level that normal people won't be because of a deeper love, drive, passion for what they do. And often it's, it's an identity that's been, you know, sealed from the edge of 7 to 13 when they were really scripted, you know, where people have told them, God, you're good at this, you're good at this, you're good at this and that identity is built in a real inner confidence that's unshakable. So there's something about these athletes that they do when they're young or what they do when they're young that creates the foundation for their future and their ability to move to new levels. Because, you know, we talk about your character and personality being scripted quite young. When your identity is that deep or scripted that strong, where people have said, you're good at this, you're good at this constantly. And she was very young. Yeah. That unshakable belief starts to unfold as you get older.

That's awesome. It touches on so many of the themes that we've discussed today of just. I was thinking of your point of clarity and simplicity and how that drives intent and that drives intensity. Right. Just her being light, bright and clear, day in and day out, year in and year out, with that identity and that vision of what's possible and then mastery of the craft in the process. Right?

Yeah.

Okay. So then, one final question for you. I like to wrap up these chats with this question, which is if you could offer just one piece of advice to someone passionate about optimizing their lives, what would that one piece of wisdom be?

Listen first, listen second, third, fourth, until you really hear the person. I think that has been one of my biggest shortfalls if I'm talking about optimizing my life. If I could have had my time back again, I would have certainly listened more deeply to truly understand before trying to be understood. And I think that's one of the greatest coaching gifts is that active listening and implicit listening. So absolutely. Listen more to more people more often.

I love it. Go Canada. Good luck in Rio. Thanks for taking the time.

Cheers. Brian.

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