Heroic Interview: The Power of TED* with David Emerald

You're listening to the Power of ted, an Optimal living interview with David Emerald and Brian Johnson. Hi, this is Brian. Welcome to today's discussion. We are talking with David Emerald, who wrote a number of books, including the Power of ted, which has been one of the most impactful books and his model that we're going to talk about today that I'm so excited to explore. The empowerment Dynamic has been one of the most transformative frameworks through which Alexandra and I view our lives day in and day out. We were introduced to this maybe six, seven years ago and have attended a weekend workshop and just really appreciate and love David and his work. Dave, I really appreciate you taking the time to be here today and excited to talk about your ideas.

I always love talking with you. Brian, thanks. Great to be here and thanks for that intro.

Right on. Well, let's jump straight in and let's just talk about it. We've got the Power of ted, where TED is short for the empowerment dynamic. Can you tell us about the empowerment dynamic vis a vis the ddt, the dreaded drama triangle dynamic that you talk about in your books?

Sure. Well, the dreaded drama triangle is DDT is kind of the toxic nature of a lot of our, quite frankly, default human dynamics and involves the roles of victim, persecutor and rescuer. And I'm happy to talk, and we will talk further about that. But let me take a step back if I can, and offer a frame that kind of contains all of what's in the Power of Teb. And it's a frame that I have come to call three vital Questions. It's kind of what are the three vital questions that if we continue to ask ourselves as we go throughout our day, will help us really stay much more in the empowerment dynamic and in a creator mode. So the three questions are, first of all, where am I putting my focus? Where are you putting your focus? Do you tend to focus on problems that cause anxiety and then cause us to react, or do you put your focus on the outcomes that you want to create and kind of the desires of your. Of your heart and soul and take the baby steps toward creating those? So very important to consider. Where am I putting my focus? The second question is how am I relating? Now there's actually three aspects of relating. How am I relating to others? How am I relating to you? How am I relating to my life experience, to what's going on around me and what I experience and how am I relating to myself? And kind of the subtext to that is am I relating in ways that produce or perpetuate that drama that's bound up in the ddt? Or do I relate to others, my experience and myself in ways that empower others and myself to take generative action? And then the third question is, what kind of actions are you taking? Are you taking actions that are really just reactions to the problem du jour or the problem of the moment, or what's got your attention? Or are you taking kind of conscious and deliberate generative action via what I call baby steps toward the outcomes that you want to create in your life? So again, it's where do I put my focus? How am I relating, and what kinds of actions am I taking? And then the TED frameworks really helps provide some answers and pathways for being on that empowerment side of that ledger, if you will.

That's fantastic. I love the three vital questions. Where are we putting our focus? How are we relating, and what kind of actions are we taking? And one of the key, most important differentiations that helps us navigate those vital questions is what you describe as our orientation, right. Whether we're coming from the victim or. Or the creator orientation. Can you tell us the difference between those two orientations and why it's so important to understand?

Yeah, absolutely. The two orientations that are contained in ted, we refer to, as you said, the victim or creator orientation. And actually, as you look at them, the way we frame them through the frame of what I call fysb. FYSB is an acronym that stands for Focus, Interstate, and Behavior. So what we focus on engages some interstate at some emotional response, which then drives our behavior. And in the victim orientation, our focus is on problems. And let's face it, life is full of problems. But what happens is that we fix our focus on problems. The interstate that it engages is some form of anxiety. Now, there's a broad range of anxiety. It could be as mild as this is a hassle. I wish it would go away to deep fear and terror. That anxiety gives us the energy for action, and the action or behavior we engage in is reactive in nature. We either fight flight or freeze in the face of that problem. And so what we do in that orientation is we stay focused on what we don't want, which is what we don't like, which is why we call them problems. And our behaviors are really oriented toward getting rid of or away from the problems that we experience in our life. And what I would say about that, without going too deep into it, is that that orientation, that basic orientation, is really kind of the default orientation of humankind. And I know we've only got a half hour here, but what I would say is that it has served us well as a species and helped us survive. And it's reached the limits as an operating system to the benefit that we derive from reacting to threats or problems around us. And what's really called for is an upgrade in operating system to what we call a creator orientation in a dead work. And the FYSB that frames the creator orientation is that we put our focus on envisioned outcomes. What is it that we want to create? What is it that has heart and meaning for us? And as we focus on outcomes, it engages us in interstate is our passion, our desire, our love for what we want to see manifest in our lives. And then that gives us the energy for the generative action. And we take what I call the baby steps that help us get closer to and or clearer about the outcome. And let me also quickly add that some of the baby steps that we take are in solving problems in service to the outcomes that we want to create. So it's not that adopting a creator orientation in any way denies or minimizes the reality of problems, but now we're choosing the problems and facing the challenges, or what I call challengers that stand in the way of what we want to see manifest in our lives and how we want to live our lives.

Again, so powerful. And again, this is one of those. Literally, we could attend or present this over the weekend with the creative constraint of a half an hour. Let's look at. So we've got victim versus creator orientation. Now just to frame it a little bit, the DDT dreaded drama triangle. The victim is kind of the primary orientation. And then there are two other facets to that triangle. And then there are kind of complementary. In the empowerment dynamic, we have the creator that kind of is juxtaposed with the victim. Can you walk us through the other aspects?

Yeah, I can do that very quickly. And again, the orientations help answer that question of where we put our focus. DDT and teb, the empowerment dynamic really helps answer the question of how are we relating so very quickly in the ddt, as you said, so what happens if we're going through life through a problem or victim orientation, excuse me, and focusing on problems, what it tends to engender is this dreaded drama triangle where we often experience, if nothing else, we experience ourselves as victims in relation to the problems that we're facing. And in order to be a victim, I must have a persecutor, which is the problem. The persecutor could be certainly a person. It could be a condition, a health condition, like the cold I have and the cough. I just coughed. Or it could be a situation like, you know, a natural disaster or an accident or something like that. And then what happens is the dynamic gets set up between the victim and the persecutor is consciously or unconsciously, the victim starts looking for a rescuer, or a rescuer emerges and inserts themselves into the. Into the dynamic. And the reality is that in that problem, victim orientation, we all play all three of the victim, persecutor, rescue roles. Excuse me, but one of those tends to be our default role. For instance, my default role in a lot of my life used to be very much of a rescuer. When I wasn't in the victim role, I was really most of the time in the rescuer role. And as you described, the. What TED offers is an antidote to those toxic DDT relationship roles and dynamics. And TED lives in that creator orientation in which we focus on outcomes, we're tapped into passion, and we take generative baby steps. And so the antidote, as you already said, to the role of victim is the role of creator. And as a creator, there's two aspects to the creator role. One is, what is it I want to create? But the other, which is just as important, is as a creator, I own my capacity to respond to my life experiences, even when I feel victimized. Because there is, to me, an important distinction that we make between victimization and victimhood. Victimization is something that happens to all of us. Somebody cuts us off on the, you know, on the 405 or whatever. We feel victimized in that moment. Whereas victimhood is a way of being in kind of a self identity. So TED actually stands as a challenge to the DDT and a challenge to victimhood, while acknowledging that victimization happened. So as a creator, I can be victimized, but still choose my response. The antidote to the role of persecutor is the role of what I call challenger. So a challenger is a, again, a person, condition, or circumstance that comes into our lives and challenges us to learn, grow and develop. So as a creator, rather than reacting to victimization, or rather than reacting to a conscious, constructive challenger, because there are people who support us in challenging us to grow and develop, what we do is to ask the question of why am I experiencing this and what is here for me to learn and grow? And yet, as creators, we often want and need the support of others around us. But rather than looking for a rescuer, what we do is we engage in conversations with coaches. So the coach role is the antidote to the role of rescuers. And this could be a professional coach, but it also could be just a trusted friend. My guess is that you and Alexandra serve as coaches for one another, probably daily, as you help one another clarify, clarify your intended outcomes, clarify your current realities, and clarify possible baby steps. So the TAD really serves, again, as the antidote of the ddt.

Amazing. And just so powerful. So then to recap that, if we drew two triangles, we'd have the victim at the top of one triangle and the creator at the top of the other triangle. And then in the victim triangle, the DDT one, we'd have persecutor and rescuer at the other two points. Then juxtaposed with those, we'd have creator at the top, and then we'd have coach. I'm sorry, persecutor would go to the challenger, and then the rescuer would go to the coach. So, again, so much that we can talk about here, and I encourage everyone go out and get the Power of ted. Fantastic fable, really fun, simple read with all these ideas unpacked. And it just, I found to be a very brilliant, creative storytelling that we've shared with a number of people to get more on this because it's just so powerful. But for now, let's look at. We have these two models. We have two different orientations, and we can fall into different perspectives within those two orientations. And then how do we shift? So you talk about how shift happens, and you've talked about it a little bit, but can you. Can you kind of crystallize that for us? Yeah.

And actually, just one real quick, subtle point is that actually when we draw the DDT triangle, we put the victim at the bottom of the triangle is pointing down because of kind of the downward energy of the ddt. And so I just wanted to make that point. Yeah, but the way we shift. Great question. Is that the essential shift from victim to creator is being able to ask and answer over time, if not immediately, what do I want? Because in creator orientation, we're focused on what we do want, and we take generative action toward what we want. So the essential shift from victim to creator is being able to ask, what do I want? And part of it may be in that shift is also given my sense of victimization or given what's going on in my life experience, what do I want in terms of choices? What's my range of choices here? How do I choose to respond to what is occurring in my life?

The shift from let me step in right there, because that's such an important point that I want to make sure everyone just let's press pause there and get this, because this one shift, this one question, what do I want? Has been so unbelievably powerful for me and for Alexandra that I just want to make sure people get this. Because the shift is actually pretty straightforward. As you've been saying in the victim orientation, we're focused on what we don't want. We're gossiping about problems, we're criticizing other people, we're thinking about all the things that are going wrong. And the shift is very simple, which is, what do I want? I want a more healthy relationship or I want to feel relaxed as I drive to work rather than angry. There's always an answer to the question, when what do I want? And that very simple question gives us that shift. I just love the way you articulated that. So I just want to make sure that that profound idea, it sounds so simple, but it's such a profound idea is heard. So thank you very much for letting me interject there.

Sure, you bet. Well said. So the shift from persecutor to challenger, there are a couple aspects of that. One is what I've already spoken to, which is in terms of my life experience, being able to shift from reacting to the sense of victimization to asking the question of what has this come into my life to spur me to learn, grow, develop? The other aspect of it is how do we become what I call conscious constructive challengers in our relationship with others? And what's really key there is, before we challenge someone, if I were going to make a declaration to you or to make a request of you, or to tell you what I think you should do, the question to ask myself before I say anything is, what's my intention here? Is my intention to be right, to be one up to show you how smart I am? I can flat out guarantee you that if I'm coming from that intention, you're going to perceive me as a persecutor. Conscious constructive challengers challenge out of a learning intention. Is there something here for the other to learn? And how do I support them in their learning? In ways that may be a form of tough love, or it may be pointing out an observation that you have and asking them to reflect on it and doing that in a way that is not attached to them having to take your advice. So again, a conscious constructive challenger is supporting the learning and growth of the creators in their lives and really seeing others as the Creators that they inherently are. And the same thing holds for the shift from rescuer to coach. Coaches, rescuers, inadvertently out of wanting, very often out of good intention, actually are reinforcing the powerlessness of the victim. Whereas a coach really sees the individual that they're engaged with and that they are talking with and supporting as a creator in their own right and who is capable and resourceful, whether the other person knows it or not, or acts like it or not in that moment. And the way that a coach supports another is by inquiries, by asking questions. And the three basic questions that we use in TED coaching is what do you want, which we've already talked about. What's your current realities? What's going on in current reality that supports what you want, what's going on that inhibits or gets in the way? And then the third question is what are the possible baby steps that you can take toward what you want? Or given the situation that you're in, what are the choices available to you? So we support by asking questions to help the other discern and uncover their way forward.

Sorry, go ahead.

Well, I was just going to say. So the essential questions in rapid order are what do I want? What's my intention to shift from persecutor to challenger? And then I didn't really name the third question, which is what kinds of questions can I ask? And the essential question is do I see the other as a problem to fix or do I see them as a creator in their own right?

Which is such a big point. And I want to kind of again, underscore some of this and unpack it a little bit, the kind of intentionality. My big thing is I fall into the persecutor. So I've got to be right and I've got to be. I kind of know what's going on and just kind of say what's going on from an intense perspective without changing, checking in on what's my intention here? Is it to be right when I'm falling into the kind of DDT model? Or is it to support and to challenge in a healthy, growth oriented way, where, as you said, I think two really important distinctions are One, the other person is okay, they're a creator too. They don't need to be. Their problem doesn't need to be solved by me as either the aggressive persecutor telling them where they're wrong or the rescuer kind of sweeping in and saving the day. So I think that orientation of recognizing that the person we're interacting with is a creator, they're a problem solver. They're empowered and is just so big. And that's been kind of my big shift. And it's great to hear you remind me of that intention. What's my intention here? And I can speak as an expert in when you want to be right, whether or not you mean to be persecuting, you will be received as a persecutor. So such a cool thing. And kind of that for me too. It's a. Am I triggered here? Is there an energy of kind of not even anger, but kind of that subtle like needing to be right versus the calm? Well, what about this perspective? They're two entirely different energies for me that have been helpful in navigating that process.

It is a very different energy. So that's, that's well articulated.

Really cool. Again, this is one of those things where we can dance around and maybe we'll come back. But let's, let's move through a little bit right now and talk about dynamic tension. You and I Forget where else 2 different instances got turned onto this. Is it Peter Senge? Is that how you say his name?

Peter Senge. And actually comes from Robert Fritz's work of structural.

Got it. Yeah, of course, of course.

And it's just my derivative of it. And it's really dynamic tension that helps answer that question of what kinds of actions am I taking? And it's actually very simple creative model in that. And I've actually already spoken to it in the way that we coach in the TED Framework, which is the way that we create outcomes. And you've got a great video on what you call integrate written piece on rubber bands and creative tension. And as you know, I use a rubber band as an illustrator of this. But what we do is our first. It's really a three step dance, if you will. The first is answering the question of what do we want? What's the envisioned outcome? One of Robert Fritz's most powerful questions is if you had the envisioned outcome, how would you know it? What would you be doing? What would you be experiencing? What would you be seeing, et cetera. The second step is what's my current reality in relation to that? And that's what engages that tension that I illustrate with the rubber band. Because there's a tension between what I want and what is in my current reality. And as we assess current reality, there are two kind of main lists that we create or that we look at, which is what's going on that supports or is helpful in creating outcome that I want and what's Going on in current reality that is inhibiting or getting in the way the problems that I need to solve. And then the way that we resolve that tension over time is by taking baby steps and baby steps from our current reality toward what we want to create. And baby steps to me are short term, they're small. The things that I can do, it might be making a phone call, having a. A particular conversation. And what we know about baby steps is every time you take a baby step, one of three things is going to happen. Either it's going to be a step forward, a step from my current reality toward the vision. Sometimes it's going to be a step back. I take a step and it didn't go the way I thought it would or had hoped it would. And then the question is, what do I learn from that? And then what's the way forward? And then the third possibility is that we never know when a baby step going to be a breakthrough or quantum leap. That would not have happened had I not taken the baby step. So it's either step forward, step back, or breakthrough. And. And we continue in that. That three step dance is what my wife and partner, Donna loves to say. The, the three step dance of what do I want? What do I got? What's next? What do I want? What do I got? What's next? We harness and use the, the dynamic tension and going after the outcomes that we want in our lives.

Well said. That is just so exciting. Worth a pause and a rewind and a re. Listen. That dynamic tension model, I mean, that's it. It's how we approach the very mundane, you know, a discussion with someone that might be challenging. What do I want? What do I want in this discussion? What's working? What's not working right now? And what's the next best, most empowered baby step in that direction? So amazing. And then of course, it works when we're setting up a business plan or we're getting ready to do anything creative. That model. Just love it. Appreciate how you just articulated it. Let's talk a little more about. Well, the baby steps, your three things with we. The going forward, we're going backwards, we're going to have a breakthrough. That's the first time I've heard that described that way from you. And it's just amazing. I love that too. I talked to Alan Cohen and we had a chat and we talked about baby steps and he said they were particularly important for overachievers. Can you talk about why baby steps rather than the giant leaps that we sometimes think we need to take are so important for us.

Yeah, absolutely. And actually I'll answer it in a little bit different way, but it's in the frame that Alan is talking about. And I'll tell you, I first started using this notion of baby steps working with happened to be in the banking industry, but working with executives in some of the leadership development work I was doing. And what happens for high achievers is there's this assumption that I've got to figure out all of. I mean it's kind of tied up in, we often see it in long term planning. It's like, what's the future state that we want? What's our current state? And then we've got to plan out all the steps from A to Z before we take action. And I can tell you, Brian, every time I'm with especially business people, I say, you know, how many of us have spent all this time doing these detail plans and we get to step D and it's void because of something unanticipated and they nod and they break into laughter and it's because they spend all this time planning for the steps rather than taking them. And the power of baby steps is that it opens us to the possible breakthroughs and to the learning along the way. So what can I do in the next 30 days is actually much more powerful than, and is much more in action than looking out a year, five years. And I'm not saying that we don't do that, but the power of baby steps, especially for the high achievers is taking the immediate actions and the small, the shorter term actions that then are going to inform the subsequent actions and that we don't have to have it all figured out before we start. And I can tell you for the high achievers, that became quite empowering. In fact, they would actually literally sigh. I would hear sighs in the room and go, oh, you mean I don't have to have it all figured out before I start working on it? It's like, no, you know the story that I love a lot. I'm not going to tell the whole story, but you've heard me talk about, I grew up in Dayton, Ohio and the Wright brothers, the Wright brothers didn't have some strategic plan around. They didn't even know whether or not heavier than air flight was possible. But they took the baby steps, they experimented, they had the breakthroughs, they had the setbacks. And over time they found their way toward that solution and that outcome so great.

John Mackey from Whole Foods describes it as ready, fire, aim. So Many of us get stuck in the ready, aim, aim, aim. And I have mastered that ability as well. So the introduction of this idea of just the tiniest baby step and then breaking it down from, okay, you have a nice long term vision, but what are you going to do this quarter? What are you going to do this month, what are you going to do this week and what are you going to do today that holds that dynamic tension you're in integrity with it and moving forward and having that bias to action throughout the experience has just been so empowering for me. So thanks so much for that wisdom. And you talk about the, you have this great quote in here and I think this might be related to Fritz as well, the idea that it's impossible to invest your soul in a compromise.

Actually, that statement comes from my friend and colleague Bob Anderson of the Leadership circle and the Full Circle group from whom I really learned the orientations that we talked about. And he's absolutely right. The reality is that we can't invest our souls in a compromise. And what happens when we engage that dynamic tension between what we want, the vision and what we have? Our current reality is that with that tension often comes sometimes form of anxiety. It's like, I don't know if this is possible. I don't know if I've got the capability of really manifesting this. And if we give into reacting, if we feel victimized by that anxiety, we'll react in a way that what we do is we can compromise the vision. So as you so well do in your explanation is that what I can do is if you've got the rubber band between your fingers, that what I can do is drop the vision and it releases the tension, but it doesn't get me any closer to what it is that I really want. And so what Bob's referring to in that statement is that we know when the action we're taking is compromising what it is that we really want. And part of the discipline of being a creator is to really allow ourselves to, to have big visions and to live into our big visions. And you know, we may not accomplish them all, but we'll be feel much more fulfilled because we're taking action in relation to what has heart and meaning.

For us in our lives that's so great. And holding that big vision in the context of kind of the reasonable stretch goals that we're taking in the near term and kind of finding that dynamic balance between that rather than thinking we need to have everything tomorrow and then kind of that rubber band, I like to say you can pull out of the stretch zone into the snap zone, where you literally just pull it so hard it just breaks, you know?

Right.

So holding that vision for our lives in the context of. I like to think of a series of little rubber bands where, okay, let's just identify the next reasonable stretch goal over the next year or six months or month, and then let a number of those line up. And over the long run, we'll be heading in the right direction and achieve many of, if not all of those outcomes we're so inspired by. But in any case, we'll be taking the baby steps and being engaged in this moment. And as we do that from a creative orientation, enjoy the process.

Exactly. And I know that you, Brian, are an exemplar in really utilizing the dynamic tension. And I've watched you over the years, and what you have created, created and what you're creating, what you created before we ever met really was consistent with harnessing that dynamic tension.

Well, thank you and again, thank you for helping make some of that implicit explicit and then giving some such. Again, just unbelievable tools. So simple, so elegant. If I haven't convinced you, listening to this to go get the book, please do. We've given it to our family members who have loved it, who have given it to other family members. Such a cool model. So I'd love to wrap it up with just a quick look at some of your fundamentals. One of the things we talk about in these chats is Optimal Living 101. What are the basic things that you and other people I admire do to really stay plugged in when you're feeling your best? What do those fundamentals look like? I'd love to hear if you'd like to share some of your fundamentals you've developed.

My fundamentals are. And we've talked about a lot of them, or actually probably all of them is being able to identify where am I? And to kind of catch myself. Because I don't want you or anyone to think that I don't go reactive or that I don't find myself in a problem orientation or even in the DDT from time to time.

You're not perfect, David. David, One thing we can count on, none of us will be perfect.

That's right. So to me, a real fundamental is being able to catch myself or stop and say, where am I? And in the early days, one of the things I used to do is to set on my phone, every two hours, kind of my alarm would go off and I'd catch myself and Say, where am I? Am I reacting to problems or am I really focused on outcomes and solving problems in service to those outcomes? And then the other key question is, what do I really want? When I am confronted and I experience a challenger in my life is being able to stop and say, what do I really want here? What's my range of choices? And then I guess the third fundamental is that it's become kind of a mantra for us is to choose choice. No matter what's going on in our lives, we are at choice. And there may be a narrow range of choices. I mean, if you get stuck on the 5 and traffic is not moving, you've got a narrow range of choices in terms of what you can do. The choice may be, do I relax into this or do I get stressed about it? So it's really being able, moment to moment, day by day saying, what's more choice here? So it's choosing choice really that is probably the most fundamental is I am always a choice and what do I choose in this moment?

I think you just answered my final question. Which is your number one tip?

That's it.

There we go. Choose. Go on.

Choose choice. Well, choose choice. And what do I want? Which is certainly. Those are all bound up together.

Right on. Choose choice. Choose choice. Choose choice. And what do I want? What do I want? What do I want? Such empowering wisdom. David. Thank you so much for taking so much time. People can find you at. Is it powerofted.com powerofted.com Fantastic. Well, once again, thank you for everything and look forward to chatting more soon. We hope you enjoyed this optimal living interview. Please visit BrianJohnson me for more.