Heroic Interview: The Road to Sparta with Dean Karnazes

You're listening to the Road to Sparta, an optimal living interview with Dean Carnazis and Bryan Johnson. Hi, this is Brian. Welcome back to the Optimize podcast. Today I'm thrilled to be chatting with Dean Karnassis, who is the author of the Road to Reliving the ancient battle and epic run that inspired the world's greatest foot race. And he's also just an incredibly inspiring, fascinating human being. I'm going to share a little bit of his background and bio from our philosopher's note because it truly, every time I read it, as I was preparing for this, my jaw was just dropped again. So Time magazine recognized Dean as one of the top 100 most influential people in the world. Men's Health says he's one of the 100 fittest men of all time. And he's competed in all seven continents, including a 350 mile run. I said that correctly. 350 mile run, 135 mile ultra marathon across Death Valley and a marathon to the south pole in negative 40 degrees. And then perhaps my favorite, those are all ridiculous, but perhaps my favorite is in 2006, Dean ran 50 marathons in all 50 US states in 50 consecutive days, finishing with the New York City Marathon, which he completed in three hours flat. I don't even know what to say about that, Dean, but welcome. Thanks for taking the time.

I'm exhausted just listening to that introduction. Sounds like a lot of work. Yeah, well, thanks for having me on.

Yeah, right on. Again, just such an inspiring story, personally. And then you share a lot about your journey and Greek heritage in this book, the Road to Sparta. Just talk to us about it on a high level. What is this book about? Why did you write it? Et cetera.

Yeah, well, as perspective. This is my fourth book and my agent always says it's amazing that you're a memoirist and you've kind of spun your life in four different directions and each of them have been interesting. I think the Road to Sparta is my most personal book in that I'm 100% Greek and I went back to explore my Greek ancestry and the history of long distance running, which really started in 490 BCE with the battle of Marathon and Pheidippides, the famous marathoner who supposedly ran from the battlefield to the Acropolis and proclaimed Niki, Niki or Nike, Nike, which means victory, Victory, we are victorious and then drop dead. So that's the legend that we live with today. And I wanted to learn the real story and tell it honestly so that anyone running A marathon has a richer perspective on what they're doing and I think would feel a greater sense of accomplishment if they read this book because they'd know the lore behind and the regality of what they actually accomplished running a marathon.

Right on. And as a guy that doesn't run marathons but loves to challenge myself, I was also inspired just by the idea that we're capable of way more than we think. So to kind of move into that. Tell us about the battle of Marathon and what really happened with that ultra run, et cetera.

Well, yeah, I mean, so the Persians invaded Greece on the west coast at a place that was filled with wild fennel. Fennel grows wild. You know, the herb grows wild all over Greece. And the word marathon means field filled with fennel. So the Persians landed there in 490 BCE. The they had about 50,000 men and they were going to basically overthrow Greece. The Athenians realized that they were badly outnumbered and needed reinforcements. So if you've ever seen the movie 300. Who's the most badass fighting force in ancient Greece? The Spartans. This is Sparta. So they dispatched this foot herald named Pheidippides to run to recruit the Spartans into battle. And that was 153 miles from Athens to Sparta. So Pheidippides actually ran not a marathon, but what's rightly classified as an ultra marathon. And ultra means beyond. So he ran beyond a marathon. He ran 153 miles to Sparta to recruit the Spartans into battle. And that's the reality of what really took place.

Well, then the way I recall reading it was that Spartans weren't ready to go to battle.

Right.

So then he had to run back. Is that right?

Yeah, no, you're right. So he got to Sparta, you know, he said to the Spartans, and he got there within 36 hours, which is amazing to think a human can run 153 miles continuous, you know, in 36 hours. And this is 490 BCE, so, you know, there's no headlamps. He ran straight through the night. He didn't have headlamps. You know, he didn't have modern running shoes. I mean, he's running probably barefoot, and he gets this bar tap. The Spartans say, oh, it's horrible. You know, we're being invaded. Of course we're going to come and help, you know, try to overthrow the Persians and get them out. But we can't leave for battle for six days because the moon isn't full. And our religion, our law, religious law forbids us from leaving for Battle until it's a full moon. So now Physippetes is perplexed. He's, you know, the good news is the Spartans are coming. The bad news, they're delayed. They're not going to leave for six days. So he's thinking, I've got to go back and tell my fellow Athenians. And the news. So he turned around and deadheaded back to Marathon. Another 153 miles before running that final marathon. So he ran cumulative more than 300 miles before actually the event that killed him.

Wow. Which is just literally almost impossible to wrap my brain around. And then you make the point too that they actually had a name for guys like this. Right. I forget how to pronounce it, but what was the day runner's name?

Yeah, so he was part of a class of citizens that was called the Heimer of the. Which meant day long runners. And these guys were foot messengers. The Greeks realized that in the mountainous hilly terrain of Greece, especially southern Greece, a trained Hemodromi could outrun a horse. And the translation of Pheidippides name literally means spare the horse. In other words, this runner could go run that, you know, run this barta. And you wouldn't kill a horse, you'd spare the horse life because this guy could run there just fine. So you know, that was kind of the Greek version of a faster Internet. These runners, you know, they could gather intelligence and disperse information quicker on foot than an invading force with the cavalry. And you know, I've actually proven that out. You know, I've raced against a horse during the Vermont Trail 100 mile endurance run. I've actually beat a horse after over 100 mile course. So I know it can be done.

Of course. Yeah.

Why not race the horse? Yeah, yeah.

So good. And then I think for our purposes, you know, one of the things that was most inspiring for me is, you know, if we could do that routinely, right. With the proper training 2500 years ago, what are we capable of? Right? And there's, there's so much latent potential within us waiting to be expressed. And then just to finalize the battle of marathon story, you basically say this is, this is almost inarguably the greatest athletic feat of all time because we literally saved western civilization via that run.

Right, well, and I think that's, you know, that's part of it. You know, there's obviously a lot of themes played out in this book, but you know, one of the strongest ones is that, you know, had this guy not succeeded in this Run. What would society look like today? I mean, you know, this whole idea of rule by the people, democracy was new. It was just, it was just beginning to emerge in ancient Greece. And the Persians were, you know, totalitarian society. Kind of a top down kind of thing with, you know, King Darius at the helm. And they would have crushed Greece. And this whole idea of, you know, you know, democracy would have been squelched. And what would have emerged, you know, over 2,500 years, who knows? But so many of the, you know, the. So much of the way we live our lives today was based on this early Greek culture and the evolution of, you know, this idea of democracy and some of the, you know, the values of theater, of, you know, philosophy of architecture, a lot of those things, mathematics, those probably wouldn't have developed the way they did had he not succeed, had Thadipides not succeeded in his run.

Therefore. Thank you. Yes.

Every marathoner listening to this, you can pound your chest a couple times and say, good. Me?

Yeah, that's awesome. Okay, so now drilling into some of the practical stuff that I just loved. In the book, you talked about balance and the fact that balance doesn't lead to happiness. You say balance doesn't lead to happiness. Impassioned dedication to one's life purpose does. Can you unpack that for us?

Yeah. So, you know, I give a lot of talks and, you know, I travel the world and people say, you know, you've got a family, you know, you're a husband. How do you find balance? And I kind of laugh. I say, there is no balance. I mean, I think the whole notion of finding balance is somewhat idealistic. I think, you know, a good relationship is about a healthy imbalance. And that's kind of the way I see my life and my family. Life is, you know, life's very frenetic for us. We're traveling, I'm traveling. I was on the road 250 days last year. So it's fast paced, it's disjointed, but it's really beautiful. And we have an underlying love for each other that I think sees through all. I don't think it's the quantity of a relationship that matters. I think it's the quality. And when I'm together with my family, it's just really good quality time. And we put together, we put down our screens. We really enjoy each other because it's for not a long duration. Sometimes I think being together too often too much is an unhealthy thing.

Yeah, totally. That separation creates that intimacy and to your point, it's intensity of focus while you're together, AKA the quality of it. Right. Vis a vis the quantity of. Yeah, I'm with you, and I've got my iPhone out or whatever.

Yeah.

Kind of sort of here.

Yeah. And I mean, if you, you know, you've interviewed a lot of successful people and a lot of people that have, you know, done amazing things, and they're pretty obsessive about their, you know, whatever their passion might be. You know, there's an obsession there and a compulsion, or else they're not going to be. They're not going to rise to the level they have.

Yeah, that's amazing. I want to hear you reflect on that a little more because it's something I reflected on in the note. You know, a number of authors explicitly say that, and even one of my favorite mindfulness teachers who wrote a book called Mind Dan Siegel, I was just caught by his. He articulated as. I've been obsessed with the mind for decades now, and that's why he can write this book on it. So that willingness to go all in and to say, this is what matters to me and this is what I'm going to carve my life around. Can you just tell us about your relationship with your obsession and with your passion for living the life you do?

Yeah, well, you know, there's a company I work with called the North Face, and they, you know, they have a motto, never Stop Exploring. And I think that that's kind of the motto, the modern motto of, you know, ancient Greece, which was this idea of arete, of personal bestness, of being the best you that you can be. And I think you need to look inward to find, you know, to see what your true passions are. For me, it was running. And I know it's a very primitive, basic, simple act, running, but it's what I really love to do. And I finally came to grips with that and said, boy, you just love to run, and can you turn that into a life? Who would have thought it was possible to turn, especially ultra running into a career and a life? But I thought, you're passionate about it, it's what you love. Give it a go. And it somehow worked out. So I always tell people, even if it's basket weaving you're passionate about, throw your heart and your soul into it, dedicate yourself wholeheartedly to it, and you'll figure out a way to make a.

Go of it right on and be your personal best. My listeners know that I often say that if I had to summarize My entire philosophy in one word. It's arete. It's that impulse to express the highest and best version of ourselves, which, as you know, the Greek said was the heart of eudaimonia. Right. Of that good soul. If we want to be flourishing and be truly happy, are we fully expressing ourselves? And so you're the first person I've interviewed and I don't know how many who's ever reflected back Arete. So I just love it.

Well, you know, and the thing is, there's really three pillars. There was, you know, there's mind, body and spirit. And, you know, I think in Western culture we've largely neglected two of those. I mean, we've developed incredible sophistication as far as the use of our mind. But a lot of our bodies are deteriorated. I just don't think you can achieve Arete, no matter how smart you are and how accomplished you are, if you don't have a healthy body. And as well, spirit, I mean, interpersonal relationships, I think are so important, especially for an athlete. I don't think you can have screwed up interpersonal relationships and perform at your best. I think you need that foundation. I think you need all three things, your mind, your body and your spirit to achieve arete.

That's amazing. And let's jump ahead. I want to ask you something. I was planning to ask you something before, but I want to go to our modern gymnasium in gymnasia. You're lying about. The 24 Hour Fitness with Harvard professors is one of my favorites ever. Can you walk us through how the Greeks oriented around that optimization of mind and body to allow spirit to come through?

Yeah. So the Greeks, as we know, they had their gymnasia, especially in Athens. And these were large, basically gyms, if you will, workout facilities. And the young men would spend all day in the gymnasia. And there were professors there, they would be educated in between classes, if you will, they would work out. So it was physical. It was. And mental. These gymnasia were in the community. So there's a cross pollinization because the working class would also go in there and use the gym. And that way everyone was kind of together across age groups, across class groups. So the striations between people kind of disappeared. The other thing they did, as we know, is they were all naked and which kind of strips away a lot of the pretensions we put on our bodies. And that was one thing, I think, that made everyone kind of equal in the gymnasia. I just think that idea now is more relevant than Ever. And then it was actually Aristotle who started moving outside of the gymnasium. And he would teach his classes walking around. He would walk around Athens giving lectures, and people would follow him. And his disciples became known as the peripatetics, which meant the wanderers, because he used to wander around Athens and lecture as he's walking around. And it was funny. I found a quote by Nietzsche in doing my research, and he said, only thoughts that happen while moving have any value. Basically.

Yeah, man. And I know that's one of the things you talk about in the book and just your passion for running. Right. And I do a little trail running here. I feel like I don't relative to you, but, you know, I go out and that hour for me in the morning is just. I take no technology on it, but I actually recently got an Apple watch simply to record voice memos because there were just so many good ideas worth capturing, you know, so, so inspiring.

Well, you know, that's. It's good to hear you say that because, I mean, I've literally written my four books while I've been running. I have a digital recorder, and as you said, you have some of your clearest thoughts while you're running. And so I just dictate into a digital recorder. And then when I'm on, you know, on air flights, on planes, traveling, I type up my notes.

That's amazing. So just practically speaking. So you actually just have like a handheld digital recorder?

I used to have a handheld. Now I just use my iPhone.

Okay. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, very cool. Yeah, for me, it's just that iPhone and I, we have a very interesting relationship. So I try to keep him away as much as possible, but the watch has been unbelievably cool. Just press record for anyone interested. Ridiculous app that syncs to the cloud, that syncs to your iPhone. You can send a message like, I get done and I have like, you know, five to 10 voice memos. Some of them are from me and my writing, and some of them are for the team. And I'll literally. It lets you just text it to the team. Either the recording or the transcript. It's crazy cool. So plant that seed gymnasium. Working out the mind and the body. Let's go back a little bit. And we were talking about purpose and you decided that you're going to do what you could to make a career out of running. In the book, you share a story about an experience you had as a young kid when you went to John Wooden's basketball camp. And I just love the way you articulated, you know, Your relationship to basketball. Right, and what you were good at and what you weren't and what coach told you to focus on. Can you share that story?

Yeah, sure. I mean, it was, you know, I was at a very impressionable age, and I was short. I wasn't, you know, I wasn't the best basketball player, but I was really scrappy. I mean, I was willing to work harder than anyone else, but I just, you know, I didn't feel like I could have much of an impact because I, you know, I could never get rebounds. You know, I wasn't a really good shooter, and I got frustrated, and I just kind of lost a passion for playing. And Coach Wooden, one thing which is amazing, he attended these camps, and he would speak with us, which is kind of like having Aristotle in the gymnasium actually giving you life lessons. And he said, God, I've been watching you, and you're really quick. You're really good at stealing the ball. You're really scrappy. Yeah, you can't get boards, but don't do everything. Do what you can do. And it just. It stuck with me. Like, wow, that kind of makes sense. Like, just, I can do these things. Some things really well. I can't do other things at all. So do what I can do. And I think that attitude carried forward. I mean, I think when, you know, you look at the world and you look at all the problems, you know, you think, I want to fix everything. No one can fix everything. So just. And then a lot of people get frustrated and don't try to fix anything. You know, he kind of said, do what you can do, so fix what you can fix. And that just stuck with me as a way to conduct, you know, not just sport, but life.

That's awesome. Which comes all the way back to arete. Right. Of what can you do in a way that no one else can do and express that in your highest potential and flourish? Super inspiring. Let's talk about discomfort. You talk about the pain game in the book and your ability to endure an extraordinary amount of pain. So when you hear your thoughts on that and the general idea of just living outside of our comfort zones and being willing to tolerate discomfort individually and as a culture, can you talk to us about discomfort and pain?

Yeah, well, you know, I think. I think we've gotten a lot of things wrong in Western culture, and I think we thought that if we had all of the conveniences and everything came easy and there was this absence of pain, we'd be happy. And I think we're so comfortable, we're miserable. I think that I never feel more alive than when I'm struggling and in great pain. And I think any marathoner can relate to that. Any runner, I think, can relate to that. Running is not fun. It hurts. And when you run a marathon or ultramarathon, it really hurts. But when you reflect back on the moments in your life when you feel just most alive, it is during these moments of struggle. And so I think that running, you know, kind of introduces that back into our life, and I think that can carry over again into other elements of your life. I think pain is, you know, is something to be overcome, something to embrace. It's part of living. And, you know, if you watch television, I mean, half the commercials are from pharmaceutical companies saying, take this to deal with pain. Take this to deal with pain. And I just think that's the wrong approach at all. I think that pain should be embraced and looked upon as a challenge to be overcome, just as any other challenge you try to overcome.

That's amazing. Can you drill into that a little bit more just like how you approach it and less in your races and more just in your life?

Well, you know, the whole idea of getting, you know, how do you get through pain? And what I really like about running and I mean, you know, I'm kind of. Obviously, you can tell I'm a preacher when it comes to running a marathon. I think every person should try to run a marathon because it teaches you so much about yourself, because you're forced to have to overcome. How do you deal with pain? You're going to have pain. What do you do to get through it? And, you know, what I found is that when I'm in moments of pain, what I used to do is try to put my mind somewhere else or chant a mantra, try to not pay attention to the pain. But now what I do is I really try to focus on the here and now, just the present moment of time. And when you're running a marathon, that can be as granular as just trying to put your, you know, your next footstep in front of your last footstep to the best of your ability. So you're not thinking about, you know, where's the next hash mark for that mile? You're not thinking about how far I've got to go to the finish line. You're just thinking about taking your next step to the best of your ability. And I think that's how I get through pain in the rest of my life, is that I don't look for when is this going to be over. I just look for being in the here and now and in the present moment of time and doing the best you can at that moment. And, and it's almost like a zen like state. And running teaches you how to get into this place, you know, the zone, if you will.

One step at a time, pure focus.

Baby steps.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. We talk about that a lot in our work. Okay, so as one of the hundred fittest men of all time, what should we be thinking about to optimize our both fitness and just overall health and well being?

Well, you know, the one encouraging thing I will tell the listeners is people can change. So I'll never live down the story. In my first book where I was out on. I was trying to run this 200 mile relay race just solo because I don't have 11 friends. So I was out running 200 miles by myself and I was in this remote area. I was late at night, I didn't have any food, I ran out of food. There was nothing out there. But I had a cell phone and a credit card. So I ordered a pizza as I was running and had him deliver this pizza to me on the run and basically rolled it up into a big kind of Italian burrito and ate a pizza as I was running. I used to eat a lot of junk food. And over the course of the past decade I've really changed my diet a whole lot. I think that's contributed a lot to my overall health. I've gone to this modified paleo diet, if you will. If I can't pick it from a tree, dig it from the earth or catch it with my hands, I won't eat it. So I've kind of eliminated all packaged foods. And I think that just doing that alone has really improved my health. And I've basically stopped eating grains altogether. All grains. So no wheat, no rice, no oats, no barley. And that is just. It helped me naturally lose body fat and shift to a higher percentage of lean muscle tissue. So I think the dietary shift along with this idea of constantly working out throughout the course of the day. I've got a pull up bar in my office and a sit up mat. And I have this HIIT routine which you probably know. High intensity interval training that consists of pull ups, push ups, dips, sit ups and burpees. And it's about a 12 to 14 minute routine, but it elevates your heart rate very, very high. So even after, you know, before this interview I did a set. After this interview I'll do a Set and again it's 12 to 14 minutes. And then I'll just get back on with my emails and I've got another couple things I'm writing right now, so get back to my writing and I might go for a run later on, but throughout the course of the day, maybe five or six times, I'll go.

Into this HIIT routine of 12 minutes. So it's basically like a little micro workout.

It's a micro workout but your heart rate is very highly elevated. So you're, you know, you're basically working every muscle in your body.

Oh no, that's great.

You know, the pull ups, the push ups, sit ups. Yeah, it's just very high intensity, very quick.

That's amazing. And then as you said, continuous. You're doing it throughout the day. You're not active and sedentary. Right where you did your workout, but then you sat the rest of the day. I'm just asking.

I tell people that all the. Yep. I think that's so key. I say don't compartmentalize your workout. Don't say, oh, I've got to go, you know, get my gym time in for an hour. View yourself through the lens of an athlete, you know, be the best animal you can be. Which means, you know, going to the gym for an hour, walking out in your, you know, in your, in your, you know, your track stuff, maybe running to your car in the parking lot, you know, driving to your office, running up the stairs. I know it sounds kind of weird, but always have a stand up desk and if you can get a sit up mat and just put it next to your, next to your cubicle, I'm.

Moving mine in from our little gym into the office. But yeah, my thing is burpees. So I have like a 15 minute timer that counts down. I'll just bang out 10 burpees. So I just do 100 burpees a day and do the pull ups and do the rowing and all that kind of stuff. But it's inspiring to hear your training mechanics and just that level of consistent intensity, like that's just super inspiring. And as expected, will be upping up my game. So thank you.

Well, and you know, I travel a lot. You know, I get to the hotel room, I'm constantly, I'm eyeing any, you know, finger holds for my pull ups or you know, a lot of times there's a shower rod where I can do chin ups. So it's a, you know, the routine I've got, you can do it anywhere you're at, which I really like. I mean, you can do burpees in your hotel room. It probably sounds kind of weird, but you can still do it.

Yeah, yeah. That's amazing. And then you mentioned in our little prelude, when you travel, you create a standing desk cow.

I use the ironing board from the hotel. I pull up the ironing board and put it next to the window. It's great because most of the kind of desk setups in hotels face a wall. Right. So you're looking at a blank wall versus standing up, looking out a window, seeing the outside and doing your work on a mannering board.

So good. What practical idea have we not talked about that you think would be fun to share?

You know, there's one thing that I learned about in researching the road to Sparta and it was something that the ancient Greeks called the apostles fast, which we know about fasting now mostly around religious holidays. And these are kind of modified fasts. But ancient philosophers used to routinely fast for 24 hours or 48 hours. So I've kind of gone into this cycle periodically of intermittent fasting. And I think that's a really incredible thing because one, it teaches you discipline to overcome your natural urges to eat. And it's really tough to do. But if you can fast periodically, if you can try a 24 hour fast, it's amazing how great you start to feel. And I know the whole idea of intermittent fasting is kind of becoming more mainstream now, but I've been doing it for about a decade.

That's awesome. Yeah. I try to eat within an 8 to 10 hour window of time every day and have that kind of daily intermittent fast and do like to do kind of the seasonal fasting. What's the rate or frequency with which you do that? Sort of 24, 48.

I would say maybe one or two days a week. I'll try to do a 24 hour fat.

Really? Wow, cool. Yeah, that's awesome. And then I'll echo your experience with eliminating kind of the modified paleo approach of eliminating grains. And for me, just upping the greens and all that and the fat. And it's been just truly astonishing to see my energy levels, my blood sugar levels and my body fat percentage levels optimize. So just to echo my own personal experience in that. And I appreciate you sharing and experimenting and bringing that wisdom home. Well, if you were going to share one piece of wisdom to someone passionate about optimizing their lives so they can make a difference in the world, what would that one piece of wisdom be?

Oh man, there's A couple proverbs I really like, and I guess one of them is a Chinese proverb that went something along the lines of, be not afraid of moving slowly. Be afraid only of standing still. So people think, boy, like writing a book. It's such a heady game because you've got to fill 300 pages somehow with something that people want to read. And, you know, it's overwhelming at points. And I just would say that proverb to me all the time, like, you're moving slowly, but that's okay. Just don't stop.

Wow. Which works in your races and your writing and in every aspect of your life. Dean, I really appreciate you and just the life that you've created for yourself and the embodiment and demonstration of arete and enthusiasm. So thank you for being you and thank you for taking the time. Where can people learn more about you and dive even deeper into you and your work?

Yeah, I mean, they can just go to my website, which is ultramarathonman.com that was the title of my first book. And they can learn more about the Road to Sparta or any of the other books I've written, as well as some of my adventures, like running 50 marathons in 50 states in 50 days. And I kind of. I wrote a book about that. I mean, to me, it was the ultimate road trip. I took my family along. We got to see all 50 of. Of the US states, and I got to run a little bit and exercise in between.

We need to talk after this because we're planning to do a road trip with our family, but we're going to do 50 cities in a year. Right. And just kind of see our community around the country and then plan to do it around the world. So I was inspired as I was prepping for this and remembered that you had done that, but that's awesome. So. Ultramarathonman.com the road to Sparta is fantastic. And check it out. If you're into sports and heroic feats and memoirs, it's just. It's a fantastic read. So, Dean, thank you so much.

Thanks for having me on. It was a pleasure.