Interview - Enough Already with Alan Cohen

You're listening to Optimize with Bryan Johnson.

More wisdom in less time. Hi, this is Brian. I am so excited to have Alan Cohen with us today. Alan is one of my favorite teachers and favorite people in the world. He holds the record for most number of philosophers notes. He's tied with a couple of other great teachers, but we've done three so far. I'm working on a fourth. His great books, why youy Life, Life Sucks, and importantly, what you can do about it, Relax into Wealth, A daily dose of sanity, and his most recent book, enough already. Just such an extraordinary teacher. Got to know him through his role in Finding Joe, a documentary on Joseph Campbell that we both happened to be in. And Alexander and I were watching the movie and Alan kicks off the movie and we just fell in love with him. Just such an articulate, passionate, grounded, inspiring human being. And I asked the director to connect us and we've become friends over the last. Whatever it's been. Year. Year. Alan, I am so excited to have you here today. Appreciate you taking the time.

Oh, the feeling is mutual. I have so much respect for what you're doing, and I'm just happy to play with you in any capacity.

Right on. Well, let's jump in because I want to spend this time just really highlighting your energy, your wisdom. I've got a bunch of my favorite big ideas that I'd love to hear you talk about. The first one is about being in integrity. It's one of my favorite words, being in integrity. And in daily dose of Sanity. You talk about what that means for you and you tie it to being total. So being in integrity and being total. Can you talk about that for us?

Yeah. To me, integrity means that the life that you're living on the outside is an accurate expression of who you are on the inside. And I think that the reason we experience pain in our life is because who we're living is not who we really are. And I've worked with people over many years to help them close that gap. And that's where healing comes. Healing comes when you have what I call spiritual confidence, which means that you trust that the spirit of what's moving you is good enough and will work in the outside world. And you don't have to play games or image management or presentation. It's all about authentic living from the heart. And that's what really gets your mileage in the success world.

That is awesome. And this ties into a few of the ideas on this theme that I wanted to hear you explore. You talk about. And we Talked about it, both of us did, in Finding Joe. The idea that there's this. You call it a persistent call to greatness and that those of us who step into it answer that call. Can you talk about what that call is like, what gets in the way? All those different things.

Oh, fabulous question. I've been looking lately at what geniuses because. Because I'll watch a movie or listen to music or see a painting. And I just know that this was inspired by higher power. Like, no human being could conjure this up with a rational mind. And so I truly believe that there is God, there is wisdom, there is universal intelligence. And this power, whatever you call it, wants to move through us into the world to make the world a better place, scientifically, artistically, medically, whatever you want to call it. And I believe that each of us is seeded with greatness. Each of us has a great contribution to make. The only question is, do you trust it and are you willing to act on it? And I think a lot of people suffer or experience poverty because they don't trust their talents. They don't trust their unique inclinations. And I think the moment you quit judging yourself or attempting to live up to the expectations of others, suddenly doors and the greatness that spirit has seeded within you starts to blossom. And great genius works come into the world that bless you and everybody you touch and also make you very, very successful. Because your genius is really the key to your prosperity. I can't emphasize that too much.

And you talk about the importance of. You tell a great story. I think it was a daily dose of sanity about the guy who came to you or came to his master, and he wanted to replicate his master, and the master told him, you need to replicate yourself. Can you talk about that and how we get into that? Kind of weird.

It was somebody who came to a shaman, and they said, how can I be more like you? And the shaman said, the only way to be more like me is to be more like you. And the idea is that you can. I used to have a teacher said, you cannot carve and copy God. In other words, you can't imitate somebody else and find your own way to your own joy and your own success. So you have to be inspired by other people and use them as role models, but don't try to mimic them. That's the whole deal, really. There's no way around coming from your own unique talent. You have to have absolute, impeccable trust in your uniqueness. And that's where all the cookies are. Does that deal with your question, Brian.

That's perfect. That's perfect. Well, I knew it would be amazing, so I can't say even better than I anticipated. Love it. And I just love your storytelling as well. I want to really celebrate that. And your books are just so wonderfully written with so many great stories that bring this point home. So that is definitely where the cookies are at.

Thank you.

So one of your stories, metaphors, if you will, that you talk about is dialing in to know the radio station. Know. How do we do that? How do we dial into that station? Of knowing.

Yeah, the analogy I use, people say, how do I listen to my intuition? How do I hear guidance? And I suggest that guidance is always being broadcast to you by the universe. I think A Course in Miracles says that your ability to hear the voice of God is only equal to your willingness to listen. So it's like this radio station of guidance and wisdom broadcasting from within you at all hours of the day. And the question is, are you willing to stop your busyness or craziness or obsessiveness or workingness or worryingness and just listen? So there's two grounded messages you can use. One, of course, is some form of meditation where you quiet the mind and you get to get beyond the chatter and you just get still. Whatever that means to you, whether it's breathing or laying in the woods or playing some music, anything that gets that mental chatter out of the way will open the door to higher wisdom. That's method number one. Method number two is to follow joy. And you and I talked about this a great deal in Finding Joe, that when you are true to your bliss, to your highest excitement, two things happen. One is you have a lot of fun because bliss is the best feeling you ever going to have. And two doors open when you're in your. When you're in your high vibration and your joy vibration. The universe connects you with people and events and experiences that are literally miraculous and will open doors for you that trying to plod your way through and work your way through and worry your way through would never do. So bottom line, get still for a portion of the day and follow your bliss as much as you can, and you will hear that radio station, I promise you.

That's awesome. Getting still, following our joy. Fantastic. On that front of following our joy and humor, you bring to life one of Harry Potter's brilliant spells. Ridiculous. Can you talk to us about that? Yeah.

There's a great scene in one of the Harry Potters, I forget which one, where the wizard professor is Lining the young wizards up to train them. And he brings forth this thing called the Buggart Box, which is sort of a closet where your demons hang out. And the box is bumping. It's very mysterious. And he tells people, he tells the students that when he opens the door to this Buggart Box, the scariest thing they can think of will come forth. And whether it's a monster or a snake or a skeleton or whatever. And he says the only answer to this is to lift up your wand and say, ridiculous. And one by one the students do this. And the monster transforms into a silly clown or a Slinky or something really funny. And the mark of true mastery is to be able to laugh at fear. And of course, in Miracles tells us we can indeed afford to laugh at fear because it has no real substance. So I just love people who can laugh at life. I mean, to me, I really respect a good hearted humor because, you know, people are too serious, we worry too much, we think too much, and why not play with it all? I mean, I think God's just waiting for us to get around to laughing. You know, we're on the late show waiting for the comedian to come on. We are the comedian. We have to, we have to be the comedian and laugh at the comedian.

That's awesome. And that leads us perfectly into one of the other books I wanted to explore some basic ideas from Relaxing into Wealth, Another one of my favorite books. Highly recommend that. Check out the Philosopher's Note and check out the book Relax into Wealth. Talk to us about that.

Well, most people think you have to struggle into wealth, but most of us have struggled in some form or other and have gotten very far. Now you can have a belief system that says if I struggle, I will get wealthy. And that will probably work because you're in integrity with your belief system. But in the long run, it won't work because the struggle will probably kill you before you get to enjoy your wealth. So my idea is that. Not my idea. My experience is that when I am the most peaceful and the most relaxed, the best ideas come to me. And I know this because I meditate every day. I take some downtime every day. And in the moments of napping or doing yoga or swimming or walking in the woods, my mind is open and the best ideas fall into my brain when I'm playing, not when I'm sitting there at my computer trying to squeeze a good idea out. So what I've learned, Brian, is that when my work starts to feel like a struggle, I stop. In fact, I have an agreement with my partner Dee, that neither of us need to struggle over anything. I know this is radical for relationship because some people define relationship as struggle. How's your relationship? I'm working on it. Well, good luck. And so one day I was working on my computer and I was kind of all balled up in some website thing, and my partner Dee came in the room. She says, are you having fun? I go, well, no. She said, well, stop it. So I got up and I walked away. And God bless her, she was right. Because you cannot achieve anything when you're in a diminishing returns mode. You have to step away, get your head on straight, relax, play. And then in that relaxed state of mind, flow comes and good things result.

Just wonderful. So loving that. Are you having fun? No. Stop doing that. That's part of the idea of you separate. The difference between getting money and. You're really clear in your book on relaxing into wealth. This wasn't a book about getting money. It was a book about building consciousness. Can you walk us through that distinction and how we go about building consciousness?

I once heard a Zen lecture where somebody asked the Zen master, how do I get more money? And he looked a student in the eye, he said these words, he said, you are the gold. You are the gold. And so money is really a byproduct of joy. We believe that if I get the money, I could be joyful. But the truth is, if you're joyful, you get the money. Or it may not come in the form of money, but the universe will absolutely support you. And so all of life is lived from inside out. If you don't believe you're worthy, if you're disliking yourself, if you have a job you hate, if you have relationships you hate, you're not going to get results because you're swimming upstream in the universal flow. There is truly a thing for the universal flow. Lao Tzu called it the dao. You know, there's lots of great references to stuff like that in your books. I know, which I enjoy very much. And it's almost like you have to come to peace with your wholeness and your worth before stuff in the outside world can come to you. Now it's always coming to you by grace. And I mentioned a course in miracles a couple times. And the Course in miracles is big on grace. It says that you are worthy of all the good things that you can imagine. You just have to let them in. And the way you let them in is by recognizing you deserve them. Every single Person on this planet deserves to be fantastically wealthy. And I mean that without exception. And there are different forms of wealth. There's money, there's love, there's nature. I mean, it doesn't matter so much. But you deserve to experience wealth in the way that is most meaningful to you. And that has to be done from inside out. You have to fall in love with yourself before you can, before the universe will express its love to you in your experience.

What gets on that theme? What gets in the way? Why is it that so many of us don't feel that we do deserve it?

Programming. You know, your dad told you you were stupid. Your dad said that you have to have a PhD before anybody will love you. You look at your parents, modeling, struggling over money, fighting over petty stuff. Most statistics show that the most common reason for argument in marriage is money. Most people argue over money more than anything else. So if we see our parents arguing over money, you get the program that money is something you argue over. It's not a fun thing. It's not something that comes easily. It's something you fight over. It's something that you resent people over. And so, you know, we learn at young ages that a lot of weird stuff about money and then we have to come to your seminars or mine to undo that. And so it's that and fear. Fear always constricts us. Anytime you go into fear, you're not going to attract anything that's really valuable to you. So you have to check out your programming and ask, is this really working for me? And if not, what would you? And you have to see if you're coming from love or fear, and you're always in one or the other.

Love it. So how have you dealt with fear in your life? And how do you recommend we approach fear?

Good question. I still get afraid. You know, it's like I've been dealing with this years, but, you know, I get more tools. So the first thing I do is to notice that I'm afraid. And I know how that feels. There's a constriction in my gut. My mind starts rambling, I start tensing up. I just notice, okay, I'm now in fear. Okay, got it. And then you don't judge yourself for it because some people say, oh, I'm supposed to be spiritual, I shouldn't be afraid. And then you start beating yourself up for being afraid. Well, that doesn't help either. So you have to just notice it and accept it and say, okay, this is an experience I'm having. At the moment. So the thing that helps me, Brian, is then I ask, well, what would love do here if I were not afraid? How would I be acting differently? And if I can wrap my mind or my feeling world, even for a moment around what it would be like if I were not afraid. There's a door, there's an escape route. Cute little story. Many years ago, I took a hike into Haleakala volcano on Maui. And as we were going down, there was a switchback. And it was real cool, cloudy, and it was all fun. And it's about a thousand foot descent. And as we were coming up a couple days later after camping out, I noticed that we were on the edge of like a 3,000 foot precipice on the other side. And there was this little trail like maybe six or eight feet wide. Now, I was not in real danger of falling, but I got scared. And I experienced what the only experience I've had that might be like a panic attack where I just felt like I was afraid to go back and I was afraid to go ahead. All I wanted to do was stand there like, somebody get me out of here. But of course that wasn't going to happen. And then a few moments later, I saw this woman hiking down the trail and she was having such a good old time. She was laughing and smiling and whistling and looking around. And I thought, well, she's on the same trail as me and she's having a good old time. I can either cling to my fear or I can imagine what it might be like to have a good old time here. And for a moment I imagined throwing myself into her consciousness and it worked and it unfroze me and I went up the rest of the way. It wasn't perfectly happy, but I enjoyed it a lot more than when I'd been scared. So basically, if you can latch on to some model of how it could be easier, how it could be more fun, that's a doorway, that's great.

So you just gave us a few doorways. How could it be easier? How could it be fun? What would love do here? And if I weren't afraid, how would I respond? Each of those are such powerful. And then the first point you mentioned of being aware that we're afraid, oftentimes you talk about how anger is really just kind of unexpressed or unrecognized fear that kind of bubbles up that way. So that that primary act of just becoming more aware that we're actually afraid and then choosing a more empowered response.

Right, well said. Well said.

Well, that's cool. And then speaking of hiking and steps, you make a great point about small steps and how important small steps are, particularly for those of us like, ahem, me overachievers.

Right.

We want to do all this and all this now. And you've really kind of informed me about the importance of the small steps. It's been a huge shift for me. Can you talk about that? Small steps and how important they are, especially for the overachievers?

Well, nature moves in small steps. If you watch a plant grow, a tree grow, usually they grow very slowly and they develop their roots. And I live in Hawaii, and we just had a windstorm, actually. It's kind of cool in a way. But the first trees that get blown over are the papaya trees, the banana trees, because they grow very, very quickly and they have a very, very small root system. So when the first wind comes, they're down. At the same time, we have ironwood trees and Norfolk pines and koa trees, and they grow slowly and they're hard woods, but they have a very highly developed root system. So they're pretty much impervious to the wind. And we've all seen businesses grow that shoot up overnight and they shoot down over the next night because they're not established in integrity, they're not established in experience, they're not established in customer service. So I'm not a big fan of people taking huge, wild leaps of faith. Sometimes that works. I'm not saying you should never do it, because sometimes people do it and they score. But for the most part, I recommend that people take gentle steps. If you're a funny story, I had a lady in my workshop said, well, this guy wants to go out with me at a bed. I'm really nervous about seeing him. Well, why? She said, well, what if we date and then what if we have another date and what if we have some more dates and what if we start having sex and then what if I get really involved? And then what if I marry him? Then what if I have children, and then what if he's not the one? So I said, look, you know, honey, it's just a date. I said, you have one date with a guy, and you see if you like him or not. If you like him, you can have another date. If you don't like him, you don't have another date. You don't have to decide if he's the one before your first date. I know it's kind of a silly example, but we do tend to go there. We do tend to try to make big lifetime decisions without gathering information. And the universe is merciful. The universe is graceful. The universe will give you plenty of time to make healthy decisions. But you cannot rush the universe. Sometimes you go to an Italian restaurant and say, please be patient. Good food takes time to prepare, and so a good life takes time to prepare. Not that you shouldn't move as rapidly as you can, but also balance movement ahead with pacing, breathing, and acknowledging the power of each step as you go.

Beautifully said. Thank you. And that leads us to one other idea. From relaxing into wealth. You say that people need to lighten up. And you said, while most people believe they are not doing enough, the real problem is that they are too hard on themselves. It's this idea of setting crazy goals and going after for them and not taking the time to actually let those truly inspired ideas come through in the stillness.

Yeah, yeah. Well said. Well, you know, I'm a believer in the dao. George Lucas called it the force, on and on. And I really think that there's a flow to life. And I think that when you're in that flow, good things happen. Now, sometimes the flow moves quickly. Sometimes the flow moves more slowly. Sometimes it doesn't seem like the flow is happening at all. And that's the time to just be. I mean, people start to go crazy if nothing seems to be happening. But maybe that's exactly what you need to happen in that moment. And my experience is that when nothing seems to be happening, there's like a breathing period where you get to regather your forces and get your head on straight. And then when things start to happen again, they really happen. So you have to be really sensitive to what wants to happen and ask spirit to guide you. I mean, I do this on a daily basis. Well, you know, I have a project or real estate opportunity, whatever. Okay, spirit, what would you like to happen here? How can I be a humble servant of spirit instead of trying to call all the shots? And I noticed that when I allow spirit to guide me, amazing things happen. When my ego gets in and thinks, well, I have to make this happen now, well, good luck. So it's a matter of aligning with the flow. That's all I could say about that.

That ties to another one of the ideas that's really been inspiring for me. You're describing success as a byproduct of following our spirit. So that same basic idea, right? And the whole you are the gold. How do we align with this dao, with this force, that higher being or sense of self more and more consistently, right?

Well, the answer is astoundingly simple. I mean, people will not believe it, but the answer is have fun. Enjoy what you're doing. Follow your passion. Be with the people you want to be with. Don't be with the people you don't want to be with. Do with the projects that turn you on. Don't do the projects that shut you down. I mean, I know it sounds crazily simple, but when you're in your joy, as I said earlier, you have astounding power to create. And the best things that have ever happened to me, Brian, were when I was having fun. The stuff that I tried to do hasn't worked out so well because, you know, it's ego motivated. But when I get an exciting idea, like I'm just starting a new program now, I get an exciting idea that excitement is the driving force and it's also the organizing principle. And so if you can just stay with your excitement and if stuff bores you, let it go. If stuff grates against you, let it go. Now, it doesn't mean that obstacles don't come up here and there, but if the joy and the passion of the vision is great enough, you will burn through those obstacles without too much struggle. If it's all a struggle, and mostly struggle, it ain't it.

Have fun as a guiding principle. It's funny how we want to make things complicated too, right? My work is boiling down to the simple, but just realizing that that's the practice, right? Be happy. That's the ultimate outcome. Practice it.

Someone said that the truth is simple. If it were complicated, everyone would understand it.

Unfortunately true, in my life and in all of our lives, varying degrees. Well, let's talk about a couple more ideas that have been profound for me. And then I want to chat more about your fundamentals and kind of wrap it up with some top tips. You talk about thought bouncers and lawyers in your head because one of the practices obviously is getting our minds right, right? And dealing with the self defeating thoughts. Can you talk to us about how to go about doing that?

Yeah. Every thought is coming from one place or another. It's either coming from love or fear. This is back to Course in Miracles, but not only Course in Miracles, a lot of pathways teach us. And love has a vibration and fear has a vibration. And so I've been doing a new exercise in my workshops that I like and people like as well. And that's if somebody says to me, how do I know how to differentiate between the voice of Love and fear. Good question. Okay, say, well, who's your best friend? Susie. Okay, if someone called you up and said hi, someone you didn't know called you up and said, hi, this is Susie, I really need to meet you at Starbucks an hour, will you be there? What would you say? And the person usually says, well, if I didn't know this person, it wasn't Susie, I would just say, definitely not. I said, right now, let's say Susie called you up and she didn't even say her name. She said, hey, something's up. I need to meet you at Starbucks an hour. Please be there. Would you go? Well, yes. Why? Because I know Susie's voice. It's familiar, it's safe, I trust it. And what I suggest is that Fear Guided voice has a unique vibration. It's not peaceful, it's contracting, it's pressure, it's work, it's struggle. It ain't it. The voice of love always brings a sense of openness and peace and well being and possibilities. And I'm in my right place and this is going right. If you can practice getting to know those different vibrations and discerning the frequency that is sourcing any particular voice, you will be able to decide all things easily and quickly.

Amen. That's worth a. We're going to have transcripts for this as well. I can't wait to read that. Fantastic. Well, this is just so cool. One more question for you and then we'll get into a little fundamentals here. Actually, it's more of a statement because I think it captures what you've been saying throughout this quick chat that the only true measure of success is happiness and the best surfer is the one who's having the most fun. I think that it just so beautifully captures so much of what we've talked about here today and I'd love to hear what fundamentals you have in your life now. Maybe some fundamentals that you had in different stages of your practice that you recommend we consider. You mentioned meditation and taking time just to be still every day. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Yeah, you know, you have to move beyond shoulds and shouldn'ts. You know, I was just watching Finding Joe again this weekend and one of the speakers said that Campbell said that the dragon we have to slay is made of scales, is covered with scales. And those scales either say thou shalt or thou shalt not. And Campbell said that we have to move beyond externally dictated formulas if we're going to be successful. We have to take our power back from what the world says we should do or who we should be. And we have to become entirely internally sourced and resourced. And so a great exercise is to ask yourself when you're planning an activity or making a decision, how much of this is coming from an external should or shouldn't, and how much of this is really being sourced from my own inner wisdom. And if you can have the guts to follow your own inner wisdom more than the external sourcing. This is the formula for true greatness, genius and achievement and service to the planet.

Beautiful. And that's kind of cast in it as path with heart, right?

Exactly.

Wonderful. So to wrap it up, do you have a. Well, I think you just did it. I think that might have been our number one. I'd like to wrap this up with a number one tip. I don't want to answer for you, but does that sound like your number one?

Yeah. I can actually quote from the philosopher Goethe, who said that when you finally trust yourself, you will know how to live.

It's so appropriate you should share that because I actually, as I was preparing for this, reviewing my notes, shared that just about 45 minutes ago. So just love that. Let's repeat that. Say that one more time. Can you?

When you finally trust yourself, you will know how to live.

Finally trust ourselves, we will know how to live. Well, thank you so much for giving us so many great big ideas on how we can go about doing that. You are fantastic. Alexander and I and Emerson appreciate you so much. Appreciate all your work and just who you are. Thank you, Alan.

That gets you, man. It's always an honor to play with you.

Hi, this is Brian. I hope you enjoyed that interview. If so, I think you'll enjoy everything else we offer at BrianJohnson.

Me.

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