Interview: Greatness with Idan Ravin, The Hoops Whisperer

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More wisdom in less time. Hi, this is Brian. Welcome back to the Optimal Living Interview series. Today I'm thrilled to be chatting with Idan Ravine, who wrote the great book the Hoops Whisperer subtitle On the court and inside the heads of basketball's best players. Idan has a fascinating story. Went to law school, became an attorney, but he had a deep passion for basketball. Never played at a high organized level, but just hustled. And I'm excited to talk with him about his story today and got to a place where he's working with literally the greatest NBA players and WNBA players in the world. Guys like Chris Paul, LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, Dwight Howard, James Harden, and everybody else who, who's out there doing extraordinary things. And I loved the book both for Idan's story and getting inside the heads of these great athletes in the wisdom that's imparted. It's a really, really cool combination of all those things. So if you're even remotely into sports and connecting that to philosophy and wisdom, I think you'll love it. And Idan's story is also personally fascinating. What he did to get paid to do what he loves to do is amazing. So if you're looking to discover your purpose and, and you're interested in the sports side of things and wisdom as well, this is another book for you. So tons of stuff I'm excited to chat about. Idan's been profiled in Sports Illustrated, espn and it's just awesome. So, Idan, thank you so much for taking the time today. Excited to chat.

Oh, my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

All right, well, let's, let's. As we were kind of prepping before the chat, I said I've never done, I've done, I don't know, maybe 70 of these so far. I've never once asked, asked the kind of author and expert to share their personal story. I just jumped straight into the wisdom. But your story is such a huge part of the wisdom that I'd love if you could just kind of give us a quick biographical sketch of who you are, where you came from, and how just loving what you do is such a critical part of you achieving the success you've achieved.

Oh, for sure. I mean, you know, there's a five second answer which is, I found something I love to do. I was stubborn enough to believe I could do it. The longer answer is that I fell in love with the game of basketball when I was a kid. It just spoke to me in ways that nothing else has ever done. And I became like, you know, I became a good basketball player. But I grew up in a very religious home where my parents are, you know, immigrants. My dad is from Moscow, my mother's from Israel, and both have devoted their entire life to teaching some form of Jewish education, whether that's the Old Testament, comparative religion, Hebrew language, Holocaust studies, Jewish history. So when you grow up the way I did, there's not a lot of options when it comes to sports. And I had become a really good player and a really good athlete. But like I said, when you grow up the way I do, you kind of sort of self taught and basketball just becomes something that you're just fascinated with. So there are not a lot of career options. You know, the way I grew up, you can become a rabbi, a cantor, a lawyer, a doctor, an engineer, a teacher, a banker, right? And so I did what a good Jewish boy was supposed to do and I just buried that basketball in my backyard as if it was like my pet dog and just pursued this very practical life that I was, you know, that I was supposed to do. So I ended up becoming a lawyer and I was absolutely miserable. And when you grow up with a lot of religion like I do, you tend to see answers in some form of prayer. So I remember I would just sit behind my desk every morning, my big lawyerly suit standing at my pile of big loyally will work. Let's looking at this big oily desk going oh my God, I'm dying here. And I kind of clasped my hands together and I would just pray that God would send a lightning bolt out from the sky that would impale itself on my desk that would have a blueprint for my future stenciled on the yellow post it note. And I would pray and I would pray and I would pray and I'm a really patient guy, right? And I just was like, where's the lightning bolt? Where's the yellow post it note? Where's the blueprint? And it never came. So to self medicate and from all the anxiety and frustration I felt every single morning before I went to work, I go for a long run and a swim at this local ymca and lo and behold, one day, I don't know why, I just turned my head out as I was leaving the gym and I saw an ad posted on the gym doors for a 12 year old boys basketball team. They're looking for a head coach. And I just scribbled down the number and I got back to work. I just called the number. I thought, man, at least I can get out of the office a couple of hours a week just to maybe find some normalcy in my life. And I didn't even know if I would be permitted to volunteer a couple hours a week because my billable hours at my firm were low. The senior partners were always cutting my hours for some reason. So I convinced them that I was doing some business development by volunteering. And I paid a few hundred dollars to have the name of the firm stenciled on the back of these kids jerseys. So fast forward a couple weeks and practice started and it was fun. I was just giving kids some of the drills I had created for myself when I was teaching myself how to play the game. And after a few more weeks, parents started calling me and said, idan, I do not know what's going on. I've never seen my son so engaged, so focused, so motivated in anything in my entire life. Like, he does a stat, he gets tension, he's difficult, but when it comes to your practices, he's just laser focused. Well, I just thought I knew more than the father who was coaching his son's team. So fast forward a few more months and we went undefeated in the season. And I got a call from a parent and said, idamba, I wish you could come to practice a little bit earlier today. So I did. And when I got there, I had seen that the boys had pulled all their allowance money to throw me a pizza party. And I thought, God, that's a little strange. You know, 12 year old boys, they buy video games with their allowance money. They don't give it to some adult. They barely know who they see two hours a week. But again, I figured, well, maybe I just was a good teacher because I inherited a teaching gene from my parents who were both good teachers. So I didn't think much of it. So I continued to volunteer with these kids, just giving them drills and stuff and kind of things that I had created for myself when I was learning how to play. So then fast forward a few more months and I get summoned into one of the senior partners offices to ask me about a memo I had written. And he starts asking me a question and I answer. And he continues to ask me the same question over and over and over, each time raising his voice another decibel. And I thought, you know what? This is the camel that broke this. This is the straw that broke the camel's back. And I was the camel. I walked out of there. I quit. I typed up a letter, resignation, and I moved home. So for the next several months, I'm scrambling. I'm like, oh my God, what am I going to do next with my life? I tried a few things, they didn't pan out. You know, I was understandably frustrated and flustered and anxious because I didn't know what I was going to do next. And so, you know, I was living under my parents roof at the time. So they, you know, they were kind of pressuring me to go back to law, give that another chance again. When you grow up in a very practical life like I do, you're supposed to make practical choices. So I gave law another chance and I ended up with this really, really great firm. They paid me pretty well, the people were really nice, they got to see some of the world. But when I took off all the lipstick, it was still the practice of law and I hated it. But lo and behold, when I was working at that firm, I ended up running to a couple guys that I used to play basketball in the park with. And I was a really good player when I was young, but I couldn't really, I wasn't really permitted to play on a very organized level. So I was a really good playground player. And the years later, these kids had gotten taller and bigger and faster and better, and now they were playing professionally overseas. And I don't know why I offered it. The idea of training athletes was a million universes away from any intention I ever had. I just said to them, hey, let's go to the gym and work on a few things. And they agreed. And we got to the gym and I gave them drills that I had created for myself when I was a kid. It would be like some conditioning drills or some agility drills or some basketball specific drills. And they really enjoyed it. And they said, can we come back again? I said, sure. So they kept on coming back again and again. And I just gave my time whenever I had time, whether it be the weekends or the evenings. And then after a few months, an NBA player walked in the gym named Steve Francis, who at the time was playing with the Houston Rockets. Again, I didn't think anything much of it. I was like, oh, this is really cool. Here's some guy that just wants to do some drills I created for myself when I was a kid. So fast forward several years and I'm still volunteering whenever I have time. I'm working at this firm either 6 o' clock in the morning or 11 o' clock at night or on the weekends. And it's just, you know, whenever people Would call me. They would be college kids or whatever. I just gave my time thinking nothing of it. Well, I was having lunch with my mom a few years later, and she asked me in a really, really, really thick Hebrew accent, do I charge the players that I work with? And I thought what that question was. Like a tornado hit me. I couldn't even wrap my head around it because my entire life I had been making money doing what I hated. How now all of a sudden, can I make money doing what I would otherwise do for free? And it was something I just couldn't answer and wrap my head around. And my parents have people that give, like, tremendous wisdom all the time. I mean, their wisdom comes from quoting, you know, Deuteronomy or Genesis or. I mean, you know, their wisdom is different than other people. Right. But my mom's question just was really poignant. And I struggled with this for a very long time. So fast forward several months later, I got a phone call from Elton Brand, who at the time was playing for the Los Angeles Clippers. And he asked me if I would make some time for him. And I said, sure. And at that moment, I finally mustered up the courage and I said to him as fast as I could, I said, elton, pay me whatever you think this could be worth to you. Elton could have paid me with a bag of Twizzlers, some carrot cakes, some chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream, and some fried ice cream, and I would have been completely content. As long as I could have turned around and shown my mom this bag of sugar, everything would have been a okay. So I ended up working with Elton. And afterwards, he ended up giving me a check with more zeros than has ever seen. I felt so uncomfortable, I wanted to push the check back across the table. It also came with a beautiful flight, a hotel, and a white envelope filled with vitriol. And I felt so uncomfortable evening opening up that white envelope, because in my mind, I knew he had made a mistake. So I left that white envelope on my desk for weeks at a time, thinking he's going to call me and ask me for the money back. He made a mistake. But lo and behold, Elton never called me, asked for the money back. And at that moment, when I look back, it was a very poignant time in my life because I realized that all these years and years and years, I invested in myself, I call it an internship, in me. It was finally over. I had finally developed a methodology, a philosophy, an expertise, a talent that actually kind of quantify what I did. And I quit law shortly thereafter. And since over the last decade, I say, I call, I live a very blessed life and what I call the unimaginable life. Because never in a million universes did I ever think that I would have the opportunity to train the very, very best, best athletes in the world. And I've worked. I'm so fortunate. I've worked with everyone from LeBron James to Carmelo Anthony to Stephen Curry to James Harden to Blake Griffin, Dwight Howard. I've worked some with Dwayne Wade, I've worked a little bit with Kobe Bryant, with Skylar Diggins, Maya Moore. I mean, I worked with everyone. And, you know, it's just something that, you know, people often ask me like, how did that happen? And I say, well, you know, I was a zero star chef for a very long time, but over time I became that one star chef and then a two star chef, and then years later, I hope to consider myself a five star chef. So none of this ever happened overnight. It was just more that I always had faith in myself and I knew that I was meant for something else in my life.

Wow. It's just so good. Everything about that is awesome. You like a case study in Robert Greene's mastery, right? He talks about the apprenticeship phase and just be willing to just put in the hustle. You call it the internship in me. Super inspiring. So when you're doing this, at some point, did you have the insight that maybe you can get paid to do it? Or was it up until Elton Brand, you're like, oh my God, I'm actually going to get paid.

It never dawned on me, it never crossed my mind. Because when you live an entire life getting paid what you hate to do, you just think that that's the only option. And when you grow up in a world that's very practical, right? When you grow up in a world of immigrant parents that their priority in life is making sure that their kids are okay. Sometimes the idea of doing what you love and getting paid for it is very much a luxury. So it never really crosses your mind. It's like that fancy dinner when you're a poor family, you don't even think about it. So, no, I never thought about the money. I never thought about anything. I just was more desperate to figure out a way to kind of stay afloat in the world that was like killing my soul. But lo and behold, I didn't realize that, you know, when people say, you know, people often talk about, like, do what you love in this sort of very kind of contrived way. Well, the truth is when you do what you love, it is never work. It is never. It is more like you just. It doesn't matter about the money because the fulfillment comes from the work that you're doing. So it never dawned on me because I was so fulfilled being able to do something that I really enjoyed and learning how to take something that I love, basketball, as a player, and never didn't realize that I can transform it into something else.

Yeah. And then you just, you gave every single thing you had to it too. Right. I mean, you're, you're spending all this time volunteering, not even thinking about the money yet, doing the best you possibly could for these kids and young athletes who were getting ready for the draft and that sort of thing. Right. To just get help, get better. I mean, it was just passion with mastery.

Absolutely. Because I, you know, people ask about these athletes, I always say, look, I have been. They trust me with something that comes second in life behind God's family and their health, and that's their gain. And I treat that with reverence. Right. So I don't look past someone, whether that's 12 year old or that's 27 year old. I treat them in this. They're trusting me with something so special in their life that there's nothing else I can do but treat it with, like, sanctity. And so getting paid now over these years, I mean, it is gravy. Like, you can't go to France on a handshake and hug. Right. I mean, that's just the reality of the life we live in. But I put decades of sacrifice into where I am today. And the idea is like, you know what, being a lawyer, while it doesn't necessarily look like it helped me, it did because it distinguishes me from everyone else in the space. It taught me a way of thinking that's very different than everyone else in the space. It taught me a thoughtfulness, how to deal with clients in a professional way. It taught me a work ethic that most people don't have. So there's a lot of things that, you know, law taught me that I kind of apply in a big picture level, so I know everything kind of worked out for a reason. But while you're doing it, you just think you're in the middle of a tornado. Yep.

But you keep on doing it and you keep on doing what needs to be done on both sides of the equation. Right. So you're professional and you're making sure you're taking care of the, the, the nuts and bolts in your normal day job. And then you're also doing everything you can just to give back and serve and master your craft.

Right? But without. Without the idea of a business plan, without the idea of a revenue model, without the idea of any of that. To me, those are like, kind of this. I don't know. Sometimes these are, like artificial blueprints that people create in order to move forward.

That's awesome.

I think sometimes a lot of that stuff is just fluff. Tell me something you really love, and then I'll watch your commitment, and I know you'll be okay doing it.

Yeah, that's awesome.

I don't need to say anything else.

One of the frames, when I was reflecting on your experience and getting paid to do what you love to do, and I just love that story. Story of Elton Brand could have paid you in candy, and you would have been stoked. A bag of jelly beans.

I would have been happy. Yes. Yes, absolutely.

For me, there's a similar parallel, not just with law school, but I actually asked myself the question, well, how can I get paid to do what I love to do? And it was very clear to me that I love to read, I love to study, and I love to optimize my life and help other people do that. And it took me the better part of 15 years to get to a place where, oh, wow, okay. This is what it is. And it's the exact same thing. And I got to the point where I said, well, what do I love so much that I would actually pay to do it? Like, I would literally pay to do this, you know, to have this conversation with you and to be able to share this wisdom. And it's the feeling, since I had imagining you in the gym with these guys, you literally did pay to do it, right?

With your. Yeah. I mean, again. And the thing that's funny is that, like, I didn't just necessarily the idea of paying sort of this traditional money sense, right? I paid with my time. I paid with my sacrifice. I paid with my face. I paid with my contribution. The exchange was deeper than money. I paid with my. I love. I paid with a lot of things, right? And I paid with struggle. So I think a lot of times that, you know, when people ask people what they love to do, what's very sad is a lot of people don't know, right? And to me, it's like, in order to figure out what you love to do, you got to be a little bit more courageous, right? Because if someone said to me, you know, I love to juggle, I say, well, I Hope you become the best juggler in the world that you can be. Because when you really love it, that's what you want.

Yeah. Unbelievably cool. And I think what your story is a demonstration of is the fact that it is possible. It's not easy, and I love the humility with which you communicate it. And you say throughout the book that there is no way. Right. It's like, look, I'm going to quote you. You say, ain't no right or wrong way, just your way. Hashtag noformula. So stop asking. Right. It's be willing to do the work and let's see what evolves. Right?

Right. And I think what happens, like I see it oftentimes in the health and wellness space is that everyone's looking for a model. Everyone's looking to replicate or copy a drill or a saying or something, as if people are like mechanical like that. And I always think, you know what? You're not going to get that from me. You're not going to get. There's no blueprint, there's no model. It's incumbent upon you to figure out what works and what works best for the athlete you work with and what's best in the service that you deal. Right. This is not. It's not like if you want to do great stuff, we got to consider ourselves all Mona Lisa's. Right. And you're not going to copy it. Yep, yep.

By definition. And then go, get to work, hustle, master your craft, be, as you said, the best possible juggler you can be, and then we'll see. You're not guaranteed anything at that point, but we'll see. You might have a chance at achieving.

A level of greatness, but if you love it, right, then the risk of it not happening doesn't matter because you enjoy it so much, you're fulfilled anyways. Yeah.

So good. And you talk about this a lot too, of the athletes you work with. You're like, look, it better be about a lot more than the fame and the money because you add that ingredient of passion and true love and that guy's going to outwork you, which is going to lead to greater results than you're ever going to see if all it is is the material. Right?

Right. And in the book I referenced the idea that, you know, applause is like, I'm trying to think how I phrase it. It's like if you're seeking applause, you're running a race with no finish line because you'll never have as much as you want and you'll it just makes no sense. So I think it's more like there just has to be something in you, and I don't know what necessarily that word is. Maybe it's better. There is no word. There just has to be something in you that just this means so much to you that you'll never stop.

Well, it's interesting, too, because when I. When I listen to you right now and reflect on the book, I think that, you know, you mastered your craft and you put yourself. You were just all in since you were a kid. I mean, you just loved it and you trained ridiculously hard and came up with this creative stuff, studied everything you could. And I think there's a life force that you bring, call it whatever we want to call it, that is palpable, that differentiates you. Where it's just an intrinsic. This is who I am, no pretense. And I've put everything I possibly could into this. That is what these great athletes resonate with because they're on that level. Right. And they're sitting here saying, well, everyone else is fawning, you know, and trying to get my attention, and this guy's just doing the work.

Right, right, right. Because, like, over the years, you know, you develop very, very personal, close friendships, like I said, because they share something with you that's so precious. But that's not my intention. Right. My intention is that, like, they share something with me that's so important, and I want to make it shine the brightest that I can. And that is the only focus. And it's my responsibility to do it in the best way possible. And if that means the most unconventional way, then that's what's required of it. So I don't look for inspiration from traditional sense. I don't go to the clinic to watch what the coaches 75 years ago. I don't care. It's my responsibility to be incredibly cutting edge and unconventional and figure out the most innovative ways to touch and to affect and impact and improve the performance of the athletes I work with.

So good. And then let's talk about greatness. So you say in the book that you are committed to the individual's greatness and you won't work with an athlete unless they're committed to their own greatness. Can you tell us what that means?

Yes. I'm going to curse a little bit, but not at you, but more like. It's more like how I call it when people ask me, like, what makes Carmelo Anthony or Stephen Curry and let's say James Harden, Chris Paul, so special. And I want to say they are absolute in pursuit of their own greatness. And that means self reliant and consumed and selfish, but in a good way. And everything they do is meaningful in the pursuit of that. That destination. And I don't need someone to tell me that they're great. I need some. I know if it's an energy I feel when I meet you, it's really. That's your commitment. And I know within five seconds whether you're showing me magic beans or whether you're really authentic.

Amazing. Another way you phrase that is a ferocious quest. Right. So just that they're just all in. There's no hesitation. Right. And they have the willingness and the audacity to say, I want to be the best in the world at what I do. And I'm willing to put in the effort to get there. Right.

Yes. And I don't. And I don't need to see your Instagram video or this nonsense that you might post. That's all just. That's just like, you know, icing. I don't, I don't. I don't need that to convince me. I just know by your energy and by how you look at me and make. By the tone of your voice how much this means to you and you done it enough, long enough, man. I just know.

Well, we could just sit in that for a while. That's awesome.

Yeah.

Oh, so good. Anything else on that particular theme you want to share?

No. On the greatness? No, I think that's something that people use those words very loosely. I mean like, they use the word love very loosely. I think it takes a lot to love something or someone. It takes a lot to prove that you really want to be great. Right. And you got to be very careful in how you use those words because to me they're very. They mean a lot more than just those two letters. And so if you're really gonna. If you're really gonna go there and you know, you really have to meet it, then you have been. It's a marriage. It's not a, you know, it's not. It's not. It's not a relationship. It's a marriage to the idea that's forever.

Wow. And that requires that ferocious quest.

Yeah.

Which is non negotiable. All in. Every aspect of your life is dedicated to pursuit of that end point. And I, like you said, the selfishness, it's a healthy expression of a commitment to actualizing our potential.

Yes.

You use an example of one of your athletes who you knew had potential for greatness, and they just weren't showing up in a way that was consistent with that. And you gave them an exercise that I call the two buckets. The good and the bad is kind of how I framed it in the little video. Can you tell us about that? And you just boiled it down. He said, look, at any given moment, you have a choice. Can you walk us through that?

Right, so this thing you're referring to is that it's J.R. smith and basically the Cavaliers now. And J.R. is one of my favorite people on this planet. He's very, very misunderstood because I think people see an outside that just doesn't look consistent with what should be that way. He's got all these tattoos and yada, yada. I think it's sort of an archaic way that we judge people. But he is a very thoughtful and caring and just a very good soul. Right. But the thing with him is that what he wanted was not always consistent with what he gave me. And at the end of the day, I said to him first, I said, look, you've been in the NBA since you left high school. It's your ninth year. And the word everyone used to describe you over the years has been potential. But there's going to be a point in your career when they're no longer going to use the word potential. They're going to call you an underachiever. Right? And the second point was I say, I look at life in two baskets, right? There's a good basket and a bad basket. And whatever you do in pursuit of something, it either goes in one of those two baskets. So those are your choices in life. And if you choose to make choices that don't necessarily help you in this pursuit of all these goals in the mba, and those things fall in the bad basket, well, you're doing this to yourself. And ultimately, it's a decision you make in terms of how you want to fill your buckets with good or with bad. And I'm not a preacher. I'm not here to tell you what's good and bad in your life. That's for you to decide. But I know that your actions are inconsistent with your goals. And he just nodded his head. I think those words marinated in his belly a little bit. And then the JR I saw for the rest of the summer was amazing. I'm not saying I'm the source of inspiration. Maybe I was just, you know, a window. I mean, I was just a mirror holding him, holding it up to himself. So you kind of get some more Clarity. And he ended up winning six Men of the Year that year, which to other people, they thought was great. And I thought it was the equivalent of being called cute rather than pretty compared to the ability I know he had. But, you know, it's something that everyone sort of struggles with to maintain that consistency. And I know that he does, but I have enough faith in him that I know that he will figure it out and he'll live the life that's important to me.

Yeah, that's so good. So I want to talk. You just mentioned consistency. You have a great line in the book. You say talents and fireworks on a few random nights in December aren't enough. Succeeding in the NBA requires consistency over an extended period of time. 82 regular season games, six months of daily grind. And then you can extend that over a year.

Right.

And a decade plus, if you're truly committed to greatness. Can you talk to us about the importance of consistency and why it's so hard to lock in on that?

Yeah, absolutely. And I think sometimes when it's. When you phrase it by you, but if people phrase it in terms of athletics, it's hard for people to really understand. So I try to give it, like, more context in terms of civilian life. Right. So, you know, you're six years old, and you're growing up in New York City, and you kind of think to yourself, you know, maybe one day I want to go to. I want to be a doctor. Well, so at the age of six, you sort of make that commitment to yourself, and you become a really good student. And then from there, you get into those really very tough private schools in New York City to get into, and you get really, really good grades. Right. It's really hard to get those good grades to those private schools. And then from there, you go into an Ivy League school and you get really good grades again, and you're really committed to your study. And then from there, you score really well in your MCAT because you studied really hard for them. And then from there, you go to medical school, a really good one. Then you get really good grades again. And then from there, at least the grades, residents residencies and internships and fellowships, and eventually you become this really practicing, really good physician. But in medicine, you got to bring it every day because it's not like life and death is on the line. My best friend is an amazing heart surgeon, electrocardiologist, and trust me, if he doesn't bring it every day, well, people's lives are on the line every single day. I think in Civilian context, it's better to understand what it means by bringing it every day, because you needed that in order to become successful position one day in life. Right. So I think that when. I hope that people are always committed to things. Right. And not to say that you can't find some time to play, but just be really sort of serious in your responsibility and your commitment for what you want to do in life. Otherwise, I think you kind of live in a sort of an empty. An empty life.

Yeah.

And, you know, when people look at an athlete, they think, oh, what is that little commitment? Well, I'll tell you what. When Carmelo Anthony is five years old and he's in elementary school class, and the teacher goes around the room and says, what do you want to be when you grow up? And Carmelo raises his hand and says, I want to be in the NBA. And all the kids around the class laugh, and even the teacher giggles. And the teacher's like, you know, Carmelo, you could be a fireman. You could be a soccer player. You could be this. There's only 15 players in 30 teams, and there's 260 million people around the world that play the game. That means 450 spots. You're joking. And Carmelo's like, yeah, you'll see. So the commitment is that he picked a life that is so unconventional, so impossible with no blueprint. It's easy to be an engineer, a lawyer, a doctor, but he's a basketball player, of all things, and he makes it. He didn't make it just because he's talented. He makes it because he was an absolute mother in the faith that he had in himself. Right. And his commitment to being an NBA.

Player and then showing up day in and day out, whether he felt like it or not.

Yes.

And Right.

But yet you have to love it enough that there's very little knots. More like you wanted to.

Yeah, yeah, right. And. And just bringing it every day. I want to connect that to two things. Just came to my mind. Bringing it every day, right. Because you love it so much. John Wooden's idea. Right. Of make today a masterpiece. Make this practice as perfect as you can make it. Right? And then.

Right.

I talked to a guy named Mark Devine, who's a Navy SEAL, a commander in the SEALs, and he said they need to earn their trident every day. It's not like you're a Navy SEAL and then you're just done. Congratulations, you got through boot camp. Now the work begins, Right?

Yes, but again, but it's very, very hard to fuel that if you don't enjoy it. So that's why I tell people that, like, I don't really care what you do. You just have to be something that you find joy in. And if I means you want to juggle and you juggle, that means you want to dance and you dance. If that means you want to make candles and make candles, but you'll never find that fuel if it doesn't come with something that you really enjoy. And I see how people get burned out because it's just. It's hard to be going at 100 miles an hour when you're thinking, man, I don't really want to be here. You're just running on adrenaline, not care.

Okay, so let's say I'm in that position, right? And I'm running out that I'm willing to work hard, right? I'm doing this thing and I'm willing to commit, but it's just not it. Then what do you. I know there's no one way, but what do you recommend in terms of how to orient such that we can tap into that deeper passion?

I think. I think it requires a level of self exploration and courage. And I think it has to do with the idea of. Stop talking about the revenue model. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter whether stacking bottle caps as your hobby when you watch football games will ever lead to anything. But the point is that it gives you joy. And if people stop considering themselves with, how am I going to pay my rent for the things I love? You know, you're not good enough yet to even earn a dollar from it. So stack the bottle caps because it gives you joy. And then maybe one day, one year, six months, six years, maybe before you die, maybe you'll find a way to be good enough. Good enough at it to get taped to do it. But if you have to be courageous enough to say, I don't care how ridiculous something is, somebody else, I enjoy this. And then you have to just follow that and let's see where it takes you. I don't think you quit your day job because obviously people have responsibilities. But we all have off time. We all have free time. That's the time I insist people be selfish and do things that they find joy in and see where it takes them.

That's so good.

Don't have the conversation of money because you didn't earn it.

Yeah, I'm talking with a guy named Cal Newport. He wrote a book called so Good they can't Ignore you, which is basically exactly what you just said of go get, go, master whatever it is you love so much, go, go. Not even that. You're not even saying that. You're saying, go figure out, wipe the slate clean. What do you love so much that you just want to do it, period, without any.

You just want to do it and don't talk about it, don't advertise it, don't instagram it, don't tweet it, don't just do it, do it because you find joy in it, and that's it. And then one day, something else will come of it. I don't know when, I don't know where, but I promise you it will. That's where the faith comes in. Because I grew up very religious, so I used to see faith in the context of religion. But as I got older, I started seeing that faith had a much more broader meaning to me. And a lot of this book to me is about the importance of relying on faith when trying to find some purpose. And faith meant me that I would find my purpose. Faith meant I would find my direction. Faith meant I had faith in myself. Faith meant that the heavens weren't abandoning me just because they didn't answer my prayers right away. And faith meant I knew I would find something that I could line to pay my rent with each month. Right? So you got to have a lot of faith, right, when you choose to want to do something that you like. Because there's. Because you never know when, like, things are going to kind of turn out for the best. You just have to believe that they will eventually.

So good. And this connects to. And running up on our. On our time that we had talked about. I want to. I wanted to hear your thoughts on exiting the cave, Plato style, because I think this is part of what you're talking about. The faith, the. The courage. Right. The self awareness to actually live an authentic life. Color outside the lines was another metaphor you use. Can you talk to us about Plato in exiting the cave?

Well, there's this idea that, you know, there's, you know, Plato talks about these folks kind of sitting and facing this cave, and they get sort of the only thing they know is, like, what's inside of this cave and the shadows inside of this cave, what sort of when they step out of the cave, they become so overwhelmed because they did that, because that's not the reality that they know. And I always sort of felt that the institution of sports is very much like that cave. It's filled with a lot of folks. I mean, you know, that essentially because they wore a jersey, a professional jersey in the past. They sort of feel they have a monopoly on wisdom and they think they know everything about everything about everything about everything. And they don't look like these people, they don't come from the same background as these people, don't have the same resume as these people. But it's never really been a situation where I was so concerned with what they thought because I felt deep down that I knew I was doing something special. And I think I didn't look to them for my approval because I knew they wouldn't give my approval because I don't come from that good old boy network that they do. So a lot of times I think sometimes you just have to say, you know what, that's the way you guys do things. I don't do things that way. And I think it has to be very. Have kind of a very open mind and a lot of confidence to think that just because someone's been doing it for 100 years doesn't necessarily have anything. It's a blessing because I wasn't privy to the institution. They didn't give me a chance. I don't come from that world. I had to learn how to create my own magic. And I didn't regurgitate doctrine that was passed on from decade to decade to decade. And again, there's lots of stuff I don't know. 100%. 100%. But there's a lot of stuff that I do know. Yeah, right. And I think it's important. It's like to kind of be so involved with something and have the so self reliant that you learn how to create your own magic in the process.

Which is where true greatness is always going to come from. Right?

Yes.

It's amazing. I like to wrap up these chats by asking if you could only share one piece of wisdom with someone who's passionate about optimizing their lives and actualizing their potential, living a great life. What would that one piece of wisdom be? It might be something we chatted about or tangentially related. But what would that one piece be?

Gosh, I think we're going to go back to that idea of you really have to be a mother pursuit of this. Because there's going to be so many people in this world who are going to discourage you, we're going to laugh at you, going to ridicule you, you're going to think this is silly. They say you're not credentialed enough, not smart enough, not fat enough, not skinny Enough. Some of you not rich enough. Everyone's going to tell you why you can't. Right? Everyone. But you just have to be so committed to this that it's just, you don't hear anything. Like my players say, it's just cricket. Right? And that and that. And that's just how you have to live your life. I don't want to call it blinders. Right. I want to call it focus. I just wrote down so committed to this. Right. And it's okay if you're not. It really is okay. Right. I don't, I don't expect everyone to be super committed as I am to something, but I do hope that in finding that in living your life, you do find something that gives you that purpose. And it's about having such an open mind to be able to kind of accept it and be like, you know what, there's something about camel making that just makes sense to me. There's something about bottle cap stacking that makes sense to me. Not everyone is meant to be an Oscar winning actress. Not everyone is. That's not everyone's purpose in life. But I do believe that everyone does have a bigger purpose in life and it's their responsibility to try to find it.

Right on. Idon, I appreciate you again, the hoops whisperer on the court and inside the heads of basketball's best player. The same energy that we just created right now is what I felt reading the book. Really inspiring, humble, yet just all about it. Where else can people go to learn more about you? Obviously they can pick up the book on Amazon or whatever, but where should they go to learn more about you and your work?

You can find me on, obviously on Facebook, it's Idon Ravine. Id A Nick R A V I N. You can find me on Twitter idanwan. Idan W a N. You can find me on Instagram as well. ID A n W a n. And for those that kind of want to know sort of more about what this book is, it's not necessarily basketball, it's not necessarily training. On the macro level, it's about the importance of finding, of using faith and intuition to find your purpose. And on a micro level, it's sort of my journey and how it's connected with many of the best athletes in the world. At the same time, it demystifies and humanizes them. And over the last year since the book has been released, I found that it's really, really resonated with parents, with women, with executives, with professionals at a career crossroads, with students, with artists with entrepreneurs. It's really just faith based organizations. And I've been doing a lot of kind of speaking around the country to really, really interesting audiences, seeing that the book just resonates in different ways with different people. And that to me is a very special thing because I'm a very regular person that chose to live a very irregular life and I hope that other people sort of do the same thing as well.

Right on. Yeah. And it's easy to see why your book would resonate with such a broad audience. Can't recommend it highly enough. Awesome stuff. Thanks for taking the time, Yidan.

Thanks buddy. I appreciate it.

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