Interview: How to Solve the Procrastination Puzzle with Tim Pychyl

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Hi, this is Brian. Welcome back to the Optimal Living Interview series. Today I'm thrilled to be chatting with Tim Pitchell who wrote the great book Solving the Procrastination Puzzle. Subtitle A Concise Guide to Strategies for Change. We were joking but before we started about how you can't write a long book about procrastination, people won't get around to it. And Tim did just a great job of creating exactly what the subtitle suggests, which is a concise guide to strategies for change. I actually read it while waiting for some repairs going on on our little Prius and just loved it. So really practical. I'm excited to explore some of my favorite big ideas. But quick background on Tim. He is a professor of psychology at Carleton University in Ottawa and is one of the world's leading experts on procrastination. He's been researching and writing about procrastination for 20 plus years. And as I said, he distills the best ideas in a really practical way in this book. Tim, I loved it and I appreciate you taking time to chat.

Thanks very much, Brian. Disconcerting that you've got your Prius in for repairs, but I guess it happens.

Oh, it's doing great. This was just standard maintenance.

Good, good.

Nothing to be alarmed about.

We have a Prius too and it's going strong.

Oh yeah, ours is great. So I'm glad I could have SW those concerns. Well, let's start by talking about what procrastination is. You define it in the book and I think it's really important that we get a sense of what it is precisely. And I love the way that you frame it. So can you help us with that?

That's a great place to start because I just had a doctoral student finish a dissertation in August where he defined six different kinds of delay and procrastination is just one of them. Procrastination is the voluntary delay of an intended action. So we get this. It has to be the notion we have an intention to do something and the delay has to be voluntary in the sense that no one's stopping you, no one's putting a gun to your head saying don't do it. And this delay has one particular characteristic that you know that or you're quite certain that you're going to be worse off because of the delay. So those three things have to happen. It's going to be a voluntary delay of something you intended. So you have an intention Action gap. And you have to think that all things considered, this is probably going to come back and bite me.

That's great. Versus other delays where we just consciously choose to wait on doing something. And it's a very deliberate choice rather than the I wish I could do this and I have an intention. Action gap, et cetera. Right, exactly.

So you and I set this up quite a while ago. In a sense we could have done it the very day you contacted me, but we delayed it because it was optimal for both of us. Talk about we're using that word optimization and then there could have been an inevitable delay. Both of us have children. You might have needed to go play blocks with your son, as I read on the Internet, and something you enjoy. Or my kids school could have called and said alex has a headache. And I would have had to say, brian, I can't do it. Well, I wouldn't be procrastinating. That would be inevitable delay. So there are other forms of delay that are normal in our lives. They're part of practical reason and we shouldn't beat ourselves up for them.

Yeah, that's great. And then while we're kind of exploring the definition, can you tell us the Latin root of the word procrastination?

Yes, it means to put forward to tomorrow. So pro and crastiness come together to mean belonging to or to put forward to tomorrow. And so on the surface it seems like a rather harmless idea. But then we know that tomorrow is a bit of a mystical land where 90% of all our motivation and achievement is stored. Right. That's the big joke about tomorrow. And yeah, and I think that gets us very close to the big problem with procrastination, which is I think I'm going to feel more like it tomorrow.

Which brings us into motivation, which I want to talk about in one moment. But I also want to step back and you make the explicit point a number of times in the book that we all procrastinate. So can you tell us a little bit about that at different times, in different contexts? Basically all of us will procrastinate at some point or another. Right?

Yeah. We're not all chronic procrastinators, but procrastination is an emotion focused coping strategy. And I'll come back to that in a number of ways because it's something that I think is missed so much about procrastination. We think of it as a time management problem. We think about it even sometimes as a motivation problem. But we can be highly motivated to do something and still procrastinate on it, which is interesting. And it's because we have this emotional response, this resistance. And so all of us can face that resistance at times and that's when we can pull out procrastination or avoidance as a coping strategy. And it's similar to other kinds of really self defeating coping strategies. Like you're not eating the second row of that bag of cookies because you're hungry and you're doing it because you're trying to do something emotionally, you're trying to make yourself feel better. And it's a misregulation because eating those cookies is not going to make you feel good. In fact, it's probably going to make you feel a bit sick. And it's the same with procrastination. It's a misregulation because we believe that avoidance is really going to make us feel better. But it's a very short lived feeling of relief.

So good. And of course that's the ultimate theme of the book is to optimize our self regulation and then a number of techniques and tactics to help us do that. Let's talk about motivation and in short, it's not required. Right. We have this misconception that we need to feel like doing something in order to do it. And you talk about how the research shows that oftentimes attitudes follow behavior more than or at least as much as the other way around. Right.

That's a great summary. In fact, we have to have motivation in the broadest sense that I have to be committed to my goals. Like today I came back from a trip yesterday, on the weekend actually I was with my father who lives about six hours away. And then I gave a talk to high school students in Toronto which is about four hours away. Then I drove home and today I had a goal to sit down by nine o' clock in the morning to work. And for me just showing up so darn important at 9 o' clock I was at my desk. Now you. It doesn't mean that I felt like it at all. Like there are so many other things I want to do. I live on a small farm. I hadn't seen my horses for the weekend or a couple of my dogs. I had one dog with me. And so there are many things I felt compelled or wanted to do. But I'd made a commitment to get to my desk at 9. So I was here at 9. But then I felt this resistance instead of kind of focusing on those emotions because I don't feel like it, I say I don't want to I don't feel like it. If I stay there, I'm done. Instead I say, okay, what's the first action? Okay, well what did I say I was going to do? I can look at my day planner. I say, okay, at 9:00 you said you're going to read the prospectus draft for one of your MA students. Okay, what's the first action? I have to open up that document. I can do that. So I open up the document.

That's so good. And can you tell us about the research around this? That when we do that, the feelings that we thought we needed to have to start come into play right following the actual action?

Well, exactly. You said it so well that our attitudes follow our behaviors. This is something social psychologists taught us a long time ago. And it's the same with motivation. But on top of that there's research to show that a little bit of progress on our goals fuels our well being. So on the one hand you have to remember what you started with, which was to emphasize that attitudes follow behaviors so your motivation will follow the behavior. But secondly, that a little bit of progress fuels well being. There's actually an upward spiral of well being which is quite incredible. But then it shouldn't be that surprising in some ways because we all know the opposite, which is going down the rabbit hole of procrastination where we feel that downward spiral of really self hatred at some point and certainly growing negative self esteem feelings of losing our self confidence and self efficacy. So the upward spiral comes from making even a little bit of progress. And quite literally at 9 o' clock in the morning when I opened that document, I was starting what I said I was going to do and there's a great feeling of accomplishment that it's nine o' clock and here I am at my desk and I've opened it now I still didn't feel like getting into it, but I started to read the first paragraph and that. And you know, because I've watched the short instructional segment you did on the book, just get started is my biggest mantra.

Yeah.

And that's. Yeah. So the motivation piece, it doesn't have to be there because if I can just get started, my motivation will follow that. And it's magical. It's a magical moment. It feels so good.

It's so good. And you reminded me with your 9am I think it was Somerset mom who said I write only when inspiration strikes. Thankfully it strikes at 9am sharp every morning.

Yes, yes, that's wonderful. And it has to. And good writers know that if you wait for your muse, you're going to be waiting a long time. Musicians know that, composers know that it comes from discipline. And Mahal Csikszentmihalyi, who writes about flow, found the same thing. It's from disciplined practice that we actually can cultivate that amazing experience of flow, that deep immersion into an experience. It doesn't happen by chance, and it doesn't happen just because the pressure's on.

Okay, well, let's go back to your mantra, which was precisely where I wanted to go next. You juxtapose Just do it with Just get started. Can you tell us about why we want to make that distinction?

Well, it's a big distinction. Just do it overwhelms me, like, I can't just do it. That's the whole problem. I could just do it. I wouldn't procrastinate. But just get started is that tiny little step. You know, you think about the many productivity gurus you know, and I know you must know David Allen, and he says, what's the next action you can take? We don't do projects. We do actions. And I'm a big fan of that phrase. I always say, what's the next action? And I boil it down as concrete as possible. In fact, psychological research shows that when we think about things concretely, it has a sense of urgency to it. It belongs to today. When we think about things abstractly, it has no sense of urgency. It's manana. It doesn't belong to today. So I think, what's the next action? I make it very small. It's something doable. And already in my own little checklist, I've achieved something, and that makes me feel good. And I think, okay, so what's the next action? And pretty soon, you know what happens? We prime the pump. So just get started for me is magical. And the thing is, it's not like I just got started at 9 and I was on a roll. That just didn't happen because I felt resistance at different points. So I read a few pages, and it's going well. And then the writing breaks down and I go, oh, my goodness. Now my work begins, and I want to walk away again. So I say, okay, just get started. Let's look at this sentence. What's wrong with this sentence? Let's write a couple words that you think the student needs to hear. So just getting started means I pull that out of my toolkit whenever I feel the resistance, because otherwise. And the key word is feeling. I'll get stuck on my feelings. And, you know, that procrastination is a coping strategy that's meant to deal with these negative feelings we avoid to feel good.

Now again, so much there you in the book reference meditation and how it's very similar to a meditation practice that Sn Gwanka's voice comes into my mind now when I studied Vipassana with him of start again, start again. His wonderful Burmese voice of your mind slips, your attention slips. Wonderful. Start again. It happens again. Start again. And it's the same exact thing with our behaviors and we get in trouble. I certainly do when we have the naive idea that it's a once and for all thing, that once we do it at 9am it's done. And I love your distinction of get prepared to do that dozens of times if you need to. Not a big deal. Just bring yourself back to the next concrete action.

Yep, start again, start again. It's wonderful. In fact, there's a lot of. As much as I'm a psychologist and a research scientist, there's a lot of Eastern philosophy that permeates my own thinking. I've. I've done five different degrees over the course of my life. Not that I ever thought I'd be a scholar. I think that's important for people out there that actually my early career was teaching tennis and then I was Mr. Canoe Head and taught whitewater canoeing. And it was only after that that I bring myself back to my studies and invest myself in a different way. And along the way I studied some, some theology. In fact a lot of Eastern philosophy. And one of my favorite stories has to do about the monk seeking enlightenment. And he says to the master, master, what do I need to do? And the master says, have you eaten your rice? And he said, yes. He said, then wash your bowl. And honestly, the just get started is so much like that. We can make so much out of things in life when in fact it is just a matter of, well, what's the next step? Let's do it. It is that simple. And there's a profound. And this is where you and I really connect. You love wisdom. So do I. And there's a profound wisdom in that.

So good. Reminds me of David Reynolds and his work integrating kind of the east and west of. His primary question is now what needs to be done? Yeah, now what needs to be done? That's all that ever matters, right?

Well, that's it, you know, And I have other things on my list today and I can feel overwhelmed. It's all about feeling. And I want your listeners to hear this over and over again, procrastination is not about whether you're conscientious. It's not about whether you're impulsive, it's not whether you're a worrier. Those things, things might set up a bit of a perfect storm to make you vulnerable. But that's not why you procrastinate. You procrastinate because you're trying to deal with these feelings you're having about the tasks ahead of you. And so you have to. And this is where mindfulness comes in, this non judgmental awareness of yeah, isn't it amazing the feelings I'm having as I'm looking at my calendar. And you become a person who can observe those feelings and then say, but what's the next action? And when you get to that point, you're in control of your life in a profoundly important way.

Yeah. In one of the ways that you help us do that is through the implementation intentions. The if then can you walk us through that and the power of it?

This is Peter Golwitzer's work and he's done years of research on this notion of an implementation intention. It, it's contrasted to a goal intention. So my goal intention is to get work done today, but my implementation was if it's 9 o' clock, then you're going to your desk. That's an implementation intention. If then it was a pre commitment to say if this, then that. And in fact I had it even less time oriented than that is that if my horses are fed and I've harvested the pumpkins, which I did this morning, then I'm going to my desk. So I needed to work that around the nine o' clock temporal piece. But it can be just something that's a cue in the environment. So when this is done, then I do that. And so for students I'll often say, will you make the implementation intention? When I'm leaving this class, then I'm going to the library to read these five pages. So it's very concrete. And the cue for the action is in the environment. That's crucial. It's not only just that it's a pre commitment, but that my action now is, has been pre committed to a certain external stimulus. And when that external stimulus is there, it's like, oh yeah, I know what I'm doing. I don't have to deliberate because when I deliberate what's going to happen? I don't want to. I don't feel like it. That's just huge. I don't want to. I don't Feel like it. That's the six year old alive and wellness. Because that's what my son will say to me all the time. I don't want to, I don't feel like it. But the six year old can't be in charge.

And if the six year old's voice comes in then I will notice.

That's right. And that's what you picked up on. I thought that was interesting the way you discussed it in the video. And that's very true. You can use implementation intentions to manage what you know are going to be distractions. If my friends call me tonight to go out, then I will say no, I can't do that tonight. You've made the pre commitment. So yes, that can be used that way too. And Peter Golwitzer and his colleagues have done lots of research to show that it works well to manage distractions. It helps us even make the simplest of health behaviors. A true one for me is my teeth flossing. I really found it difficult to motivate myself to floss my teeth. And truly it was a six year old in me. I was saying I don't want to, I don't feel like it. So instead I made the implementation intention of because I always brush my teeth. When I pick up my toothbrush I will put the floss on the counter. When I put my toothbrush down, I will pick up the floss. So that was the if then I sometimes call them when, then, when, when this happens, then this happens. Now I have the floss in my hand and it's done right. That's that, that tiny baby step. And I realize, you know, it only takes 30 seconds to a minute to floss my teeth and it's in my hand so there's no more excuses. But I really needed that implementation intention to go from a vague goal of I want to floss my teeth to an implementation intention of then this is how I'm going to do it. So that's huge. And it does come through the whole book because I think it's a powerful practical strategy to actually get started.

So good. I recently interviewed Gabrielle Oettingen, Peter's wife. And of course that's a big part of her, you know, mental contrasting and implementation intention strategy. And I love the way she talked about that when we do that we enlist the support of our non conscious mind as well. Right where there's that pre commitment and it's almost as if we're priming that NASA computer esque non conscious mind to help us that when our non Conscious mind sees that stimulus, it's going to work for us rather than being led by the emotions. Right, yes.

Thank you for that. In fact, the non conscious mind was also in our conversation when you talked about, you know, good writers. It's fortunate that my muse is there at 9 o' clock every morning because in fact it is when you get a regular habit in writing. For example, there's a lot of non conscious pre writing work that's going on. So a lot of procrastination is also non conscious. I don't necessarily. I'm not able to articulate all the negative emotions I'm having around a task. I'm just having them. And so in a sense then these implementation intentions harness our non conscious life in a good way because already the non conscious parts of our life are alive and well in a self destructive way with procrastination.

Yeah. And just to share, I love your if then examples. I just want to share one of mine because it's my number one habit that I think, well I'm most committed to which is getting a good night of sleep is my number one keep me going consistently creative habit. And then I've discovered that if the sun goes down then all my electronics go off is the most powerful implementation intention I can create. And it's literally the number one kind of keystone habit that I'm most excited to continue to cultivate. And it's just so simple, like it's just a simple relationship. And I think it's so helpful for anyone listening to think well, what's your number one? We come back to fundamentals a lot in our work in these sessions. So what's your number one self care habit that you know when you do this you're likely to have a good day. And then how do you frame an if then around that in a really powerful way? And then you give so many great examples of to kind of complement the positive habit we want to build. Well, what's your number one negative thing you do that's triggered by an if this and you unconsciously do the then this procrastination or whatever and we can do the same thing on it Right. Of if this impulse comes up this then I'm going to address it in this more constructive way.

Yes. And I think it's great that you bring Charles Duhigg's notion of a keystone habit in there because we do want to find those in our own lives and because they precipitate so many other good things out of them. And sleep is huge. In fact I would encourage you to chat with Joel Anderson at Utrecht University and I can give you his contact information because he and his team are doing work on sleep procrastination. And many people will take that. You know, I think we'll probably get to this point of, you know, the one minute idea. Yes. But many people, that's their problem at night. You know, I'll just watch one more show or it'll only take me a minute to do such and such. And so they find that they don't get enough sleep and then it really takes apart their lives because without enough sleep, it wrecks the way your body's dealing with sugar and you start to overeat and you don't want to exercise and there's so many things that go down. So sleep procrastination is a new and interesting area worth discussing all on its own.

Wow. Yeah, I look forward to meeting Joel and I appreciate your support with that. And it's really funny, we're completely in sync here because that was precisely the next idea I wanted to go to, which is it will only take a minute. And I mean, this is. Is both great and funny. You shared an anonymous blog comment, I believe from your Psychology Today blog on procrastination. But tell us about this.

It will only take a minute. So a classic story that I actually started telling in the 90s, I think one of the first talks I ever gave to my university colleagues was I talked about how I ended up cleaning out my fridge. And so it starts with, things aren't going well at my desk, and the writing's not going as well as I think I'm staring at a blank page, so I think I'll get a snack. And of course, hunger has a lot to do with stress. And you go to the fridge and you think, oh, I'll have that yogurt. So at least you think feeling you're gonna eat something good for yourself. And then you notice that the yogurt leaves a ring on the shelf. Now, you're not necessarily one, or I'm not necessarily one, always to fastidiously clean rings, but for that moment, that day, you think it will only take a minute to wipe that up, which is true. So you go to get a hot cloth and you reach in with the cloth and you realize the pickle jar is stuck and the pickle jar is in the way. You think, it will only take me a minute to pull the things off that shelf and wipe that shelf. Well, you know how the story goes. Thirty minutes later, my wife walks by and says, are you cleaning the fridge?

No.

No, I'm not. But you actually are. You never decided to do that because it was this slippery slope of it'll only take a minute. Now, not everyone's gonna see that happening with their own fridge cleaning. Although I know there are people that do similar things. But they will see it when you say, it'll only take me a minute to update my Facebook page or check Instagram or tweet this out or to alphabetize these or. And of course, we know where that goes. Three hours later, you're wondering why you're watching these cat videos. Well. Or watching another episode of whatever show. And that kind of bleeds into the sleep procrastination. But of course, that's what happens when we make rational decisions. It will only take a minute over an irrationally short period of time, which is a minute because a minute later you face the same decision, same question, and you make the same decision. So whenever you think it'll only take a minute, you really have to question what it is you're doing. Now, I know when you did your video on the book, you talked about the fact of you contrast that with the two minute rule, which I really think is powerful. Something only takes two minutes. Don't schedule it, just do it. But the downside of some of those is that if you find yourself saying it'll only take a minute, then you have to say, is this what I should be doing right now? And that's a powerful question too.

I love it. Yeah. And we can bring back the implementation intentions on this again of if I say to myself, oh, it'll only take a minute, or whatever equivalent, then I will do what you just said of bring my awareness to now what really needs to get done that supports my goals most profoundly. Right.

Yeah. So. And then sometimes then you make a deal with yourself. Like when I was doing the student's chapter today, I got to page 8 and I really wanted to take a break. And I thought, no, don't stop right now. Make a different decision. Say you can stop when you get to page 10. Earn a little bit more. So I recognized I needed a break, but I didn't want to just give in to the impulse because now I'm setting myself up to a habit where I do that all the time. So I did give myself license to take a break because I needed one, but I made myself not take it. Just the moment I had that feeling of resistance. Instead, I moved through a couple more pages and then I took a break. Now, breaks are really important both for our bodies, especially if you're sitting like I am all the time. But you have to be careful about what you take a break around. Some breaks are bottomless bits, right. If I go off to some of my favorite social media, I might be there way too long and I wouldn't start doing any sort of E commerce because I'm too much of a researcher. You have to know yourself a little bit. So there are some things that are worth taking a break on and other things that you're really just another level of self deception. You're about to go down the rabbit hole. So take a break. But then, you know, be mindful about the break you're taking so that you're not just tricking yourself into escaping again.

Well, this leads us to another one of your powerful ideas which is disconnecting. And it's kind of another. It's not quite a pre. What is a pre. Commitment, right. Of kind of the Odysseus tie me to the master plug your ears equivalent. Right. Of.

I thought that was great. You did that in your video. That. That's the classic, right? I know I'm going to be tempted by the siren. So tie me to the mast. Don't let me out. And we do need those strong peak cream and it's a beautiful image of that, but, you know, it's the least palatable. I told you, I was just speaking in Toronto yesterday and it was to high school students and it's the hardest one to sell, that they need to shut off their social media because we want to believe we can do this, but as we know, it's killing people on the highway and that's just a crazy tragedy, but it's also wasting our lives. Like we're spending time away from the things that we know are important for our own sense of accomplishment. And I'm not talking about just being a productivity monster. I'm just talking about achieving the things that you want to in your own life because that's what gives your life meaning, that pursuit of your goals. And instead you're being drawn away often to minutiae. So we have to recognize that we don't really multitask. We task switch so that we have to shut these things off. And I know when you do your own writing, you make a commitment to doing that, but you do it in spurts. You say, okay, for this amount of time I'm shutting things off and then I have a license to turn it back on and deal with it. And doing that makes you very mindful Much like if when the sun goes down, my technology goes off, those really important rules.

And then as you said earlier, when we do that consistently, it's literally like building a muscle. Right. Where there's a ton of willpower that needs to be exerted in order to create a new habit. But once the habit is in place, it actually then works for you rather.

Than against you and you get the reward. Like, at first, you can't understand the amount of reward you're going to feel in doing that. All you know is the potential pain of not being connected anymore. And I watch how well there's been good studies done to show that students in particular get very anxious when you tell them they can't have their technology because they feel disconnected. And social motives are strong motives in our lives. But you can't know the reward on the other side of it. I'll give you another example that's a little different, but it's just as strong in terms of not knowing until you're there. Is that when I used to go to malls and see parents with children, I thought, why would anyone have kids? It's just crazy. But it's not until you have your own and their hand slips into yours, or you have those moments where you're getting that embrace or all the good things that come in relationship with another human being that you understand. Yeah, there's a yin and a yang here. There are those moments that are challenging, but you can't know that until you're in it. And you won't know some of these rewards about shutting things off until you try it. And that, I think, is amazing. It's much like when you get something done, you can't believe how good that feels.

So I'd like to unpack this a little more because I just did an episode in a philosopher's note on Walter Mitchell's marshmallow test.

Yes.

And you know, his Description of Hot vs Cold and Hot is very concrete and the cold is very abstract. So these. All of us. But to use your example of these students who are just. They're hot. They're. They're addicted really to that. That hit. That's very concrete of the social media. How do you help them bring that heat, cool off the. That impulse, and then heat up the benefit that they can't currently see. Do you have any tips on that?

Well, that's a really tough question. You have some of the answer within the fact that Walter Mischel saw some kids do that naturally, like when they were facing the marshmallow Task, they turned around and sang a song about something else. They had some self regulatory skills. And mindfulness is the other thing that you mentioned earlier. I embrace mindfulness meditation to build that self regulatory muscle, particularly around attention and non judgmental awareness because those are, that teaches us that we can direct our attention to where we want our attention to be rather than to perseverate or ruminate on the feelings we're having because they just grow and grow and grow. So to make something go from hot to cold, we have to learn to develop a non judgmental stance and sometimes physically. I'll tell you the practical advice I give to people who've never tried this is that when you feel like running away and I'll talk about where I live, which is at my desk for most of my tasks, but you can take any context you're in is breathe deeply, breathe deeply for, you know, 10 big breaths and things are going to cool down. I mean that's your physiological response is the parasympathetic nervous system is just going to cool everything off. And so that's a simple physical way to do that. Now there's mental strategies as well, but suppression's not one of them. Like if you say someone don't think about a white bear, that doesn't really work. You have to be actively think about something else. And here I would invoke the notion of Parker Palmer, who's written a beautiful book called the Courage to Teach. And Parker Palmer writes about the fact that he writes a lot about the culture of fear in our university, in our students and in our faculty. And he argues that, you know, we may have fear, but we need not be our fear. I just love that. That's one of my personal mantras. I may have fear, but I need not be my fear because I can work from some other part of my inner landscape. And there are other parts of me, but I have to focus on them. My curiosity, my desire to learn, all of those things are alive and well in me. And so I have to just turn my attention from not trying to stop to think about a white bear, but instead, which is fear, but instead turn my attention to the fact that yeah, I am really curious about this or I would like to try that. And that to me is so important because we're all going to face those moments where we have these negative hot emotions and then I have to work from some other part of my inner landscape. So I turn my attention there. So that's what I'd offer by way of an answer to moving from hot to cold. But I'd say you've hit the nail on the head, because that's what procrastination is all about. It's not a time management issue. It's dealing with the negative emotions you're having, whatever those may be. Frustration, boredom, resentment, fear, anxiety around a task.

I love the physiological cooling with the breathing, and then in my own process, to really groove in the joy. And you mentioned this as well. If you just need to try it, you need to do it so you can feel how good it feels to be the type of person that can say, you know, I really want to go online right now. One of my things is I don't go online until I've done a certain amount of creative work, reading or writing or whatever it is. And of course, there are so many times where I want to do that. Right? And of course, there are times when it makes sense for me to consciously, deliberately choose to do something other than what I typically do. But the joy that I experience when we all experience when we do that, which is best for us to really celebrate that when we do it, you know, for me, it's. That's like me. God, that feels good. And to make that as fresh and hot as possible so I can bring that recollection back and know that, yes, the impulse will feel good momentarily and then not so good. And this feels so good once I do it. So let's do that. Right?

Yeah. And then. And we've been doing research recently based on some of the work that Hal Hirschfeld at UCLA and previously at New York University has done on the discrepancy between present self and future self. He's shown us that if we can think about retired future self, for example, by seeing a digitally aged image of ourselves, we're more likely to save for retirement. And that we think about future self more like we think about a stranger. We actually process information more about future self like a stranger than we do like present self. And so we have to develop empathy for future self. And so that's another thing that we can do to try to make different decisions in the short term, is that we think more empathetically about, well, what's future self going to be facing at the end of the week if I make this choice now? And that's a very interesting route to dealing with procrastination. Because the thing that makes procrastination self defeating is that present self is always trumping future self. Why? Because present self wants to feel good now, they're willing to give in to feel good, but at the expense of future self. But if I can have some empathy for future self, it starts stacking the deck towards me. Not making that choice now.

Oh, that's so good. Walter mentioned that research. I didn't realize who did it and where, but on the present and future self and fmris and actually lighting up the zone in their brain that the future self was basically more like a stranger than their self center, visualization or imagining themselves. That's crazy. And so exciting to see. Wow. Let me just cultivate a relationship with my future self and realize I have really a moral opportunity and responsibility to do what's best now for that version of me so that he can look back and say, thank you.

Well, that's it. And also this notion, this larger eastern notion of becoming and that we're all in this process of becoming. And so when I do do the things that are the person I want to be, that's why it feels so good. There's also Hazel Marcus's work on future possible sel. And I have a feared possible self. And I have a desired possible self. And about moving towards that desired possible self, it just cultivates all those positive emotions that I broaden and build. Like, that's a really positive way to think about what's happening to me emotionally. That progress on goals that define me, that make me feel whole, that move me towards my possible self. Really do good things in my life.

Wow, this is so good. And I want to backtrack a little bit if we can. You mentioned the dangers of texting. Well, you mentioned you were talking about in the context of multitasking, but you cited some extraordinary research. And I think as a guy who used to text not all the time, but more than zero, which is not a wise thing to do, and I no longer do that yet. I never thought it was that big of a deal. You know, you kind of sort of know, but it, you know, when you're driving, you mean. Yeah, well, you know, looking at a stoplight and that leads to two seconds after or whatever. Right. And the research you cited on that, it was just staggering to me. And I just don't think most people have as deep an awareness of just how dangerous that is. I'd love it if you can briefly reflect on that.

Well, there's a lot of different studies coming out now. And in fact, in Canada, we've just upped the fines for having a phone in your hand or texting while you're even in the car, even at a stop sign. You're not allowed to do that except. Or you'll be fined heavily and, and there'd be demerit points because the research in general is finding that it's much more dangerous than drunkenness while driving. We're all afraid of drunk drivers, Mothers Against Drunk Driving. But we also have to be terribly afraid of texting because it seems so.

Less.

Socially wrong and doesn't seem as dangerous, but it's terribly dangerous. And the only way I can do it is by making a pre commitment because like anybody, if her phone is sitting there and you've got work on your mind and you're running late, you're going to pick it up. I have to put it in the back of the vehicle in the bag and it can still talk wirelessly to my system in my truck. So I can drive hands free and I can use the voice activated system. It's great that I can just say, you know, call so and so, and that happens. But I can't pick the phone up. And that's the pre commitment. If I'm getting in my car, then I'm putting the thing in the back seat and because if I don't, I know my, my worst self will pick up that phone. And that's kind of leveraging better self. You know, we all have points in a day where, you know, you feel motivated, you feel like you're going to exercise and you know you want to do that. So leverage that and then make the pre commitment. So you're phoning a friend and saying, I'll meet you at 4:30 for a run because you know, on your own at 4:30, you're going to say, no, I don't feel like it. But now you've made a pre commitment to a friend, you're probably not going to let them down. So it is a matter of managing a man. Sorry. It is a matter of leveraging our better self at times. And actually if you do talk with Joel Anderson at Utrecht, he talks about extended will, this notion of, you know, we don't have to think of willpower just as an individual resource. And I know you've talked to Roy Baumeister about his book on willpower and the Willpower instinct by Kelly McGonigal. Great books. But he takes it a step further. He says, you know, there's a notion of extended cognition where you can do more math with a pencil and a paper than you can do in your head. So why don't we have extended will where we develop tools that will help us that way and so There might be apps to help us that way, and you can just set the environment up to afford us in a different way. So if I want to ride when I come home, I have to trip over the bicycle to get in the house, as opposed to, I got to go find it. So all these things are really important to us being successful.

I mean, it's weird how the subtle things are so big. I want to share one thing on that, but I want to go back to the Virginia. I searched this. I think you might have referenced Virginia Tech Transportation Institute, or I might have just pulled this out somewhere else. But their stat that I read was texting while driving is six times more likely to cause an auto crash than driving when intoxicated. I mean, that's just. I can't even wrap my brain around that. Right. Because none of us would drive intoxicated. Very few of us are going to say at the beginning of the day, yeah, I want to drive intoxicated tonight. Right. That's on the list of things to do today. Right.

But you might text all day long when you're in a vehicle, and that's.

Six times more dangerous. You might as well. And obviously, we should never do this, but you might as well. It's safer than texting. I mean, that comparative analysis was enough to just. Completely done. Never happening again. And for me, I just. I usually have my phone off or it's an airplane mode or whatever for the same equivalent. I love your idea of just having it in the back.

Well, it's really part of it. And I'm glad you quoted some of those statistics, because as a cyclist, I live more in fear of the road than I ever have because it's that the drivers don't even see me because they're looking down. And one thing about intoxicated drivers, at least they're trying to look up. Right? They're struggling. That's right. Whereas here, we're totally unaware that we're taking our attention because we think we're multitasking and we're totally looking away. So I don't think we could ever understate how important it is not to do that. I think it's one of the biggest problems we face today in terms of our own safety. For sure.

That's great. And then I love your idea of, what are we tripping over the bike.

I do that.

I have a certain system of what I do when I produce content. I read, I write, and then I record. And I literally put the little kind of pad that I stand on when I record that's kind of a cushion thing in my way by my studio. So that it's just, that's what's next, you know. And I'll put the computer over there, I'll put it in airplane mode. And if I'm going to not do that next, I need to go through this hurdle and that hurdle and that hurdle and tiny things like that are so powerful to get us to take this action and solve that procrastination puzzle.

Yeah. Environmental affordances. Is the environment working for you or against you? And a classic with people who are struggling with overeating is well, if the snacks are in the house, you've already set yourself up because weaker self is going to have a point in the day where that's how you're going to give in to feel good. You've got no self control. Last, you've depleted your willpower. And if it's in the house, well of course you're going to eat it, but it's not in the house. Well, now you've got something working for you, not against you. And that's where the pre commitment comes in in a different form.

Did you call that environmental affordance?

Yes. Wow.

Yeah, it's cool. I love the phrases you guys come up with.

Environmental psychologists. There's a long history in that. And yeah, these affordances are really important. And in design of communities we talk about that. Are neighbors going to meet each other? Are there places to recreate? Those are broad notions of environmental affordances. But then there's micro notions of it as well.

Powerful. Well, I'd like to wrap up with one question and just checking to see if there's anything we didn't cover. But you talk about the fact that we need to expect to stumble and self forgiveness as it relates to procrastination. So obviously we need to bring awareness and mindfulness. But can you tell us about the importance of making this a process and being willing to forgive ourselves?

Yeah, it's very important. In fact, I did a study with Michael Wall, who's a colleague at my university, a very good researcher. We co supervised a graduate student and we were going to do something on forgiving and procrastination. And I thought, Michael, it's going to be forgive and forget. If I procrastinate and forgive myself, it's going to be more of the same. Well, lo and behold we found the opposite. And I said, I don't get it, Michael. Why would someone who forgave themselves procrastinate less in the future? He said, well, Imagine that you and Brian had had a transgression against the other. Like, you know, you said you'd get onto Brian's podcast and he didn't show up. You just left him hanging on Tuesday 6th October. What would be the motivation? Well, I'd want to avoid Brian. I'd be embarrassed. He says. Exactly. Now what if Brian offered you forgiveness, what would be the motivation then it would be approach, he said, well, with procrastination, the transgression is against the self. And if you don't forgive yourself that whole area of your life on what you procrastinated, the motivation is going to be avoidance. And until you forgive yourself, you're not going to be willing to approach and try again. And I thought it was so profoundly important. And a colleague of mine, Fuchsia Sirwa at Sheffield University in the uk, she's taken that a little step further and saying, yeah, we need even more self compassion. Self compassion is a big piece of the puzzle in terms of we have to expect it's always two steps forward and one step back. We're only human, we're never going to be perfect and we're going to fail even with our best intentions. And if we beat ourselves up about that, we're not going to be willing to try approaching and trying again. So self forgiveness is a really important part of it. Now. You can never remove the fact that you still have a commitment to that possible self, a commitment to your goals, but a recognition of yes, but it doesn't happen overnight.

And the self compassion is much more powerful than shaming in pursuit of that ideal future self.

Well, shame and guilt are all related to procrastination. In fact, this edited book that I'm putting together right now, a colleague from Guelph University here in Ontario and Canada, he's written a beautiful chapter about how social norms and shame drive procrastination in terms of how we feel about our behavior in relation to others. So we can either feel pride in what we do or we can feel shame in what we do. And if we live with shame, it's not an emotion that brings us good things or broadens and builds our lives. Instead, shame brings us down. And so we have to be able to forgive ourselves, not to stay there. Brene Brown's work is so important in that sense. You know, she's a shame researcher, but she talks about wholehearted living because she's able to talk about the stuff that gets in the way. And self forgiveness is the root to being able to talk about the stuff that gets in the way and then to step up and try again.

And then we had, I chatted with Kristin Neff and her work on self compassion as well. And just seeing the common humanity. Right. Which is why I started with the idea of we all do this to different degrees now some of us have chronic habits and others, you know, it's a passing thing, but there's that common humanity of we're not alone in this. And I used to shame myself in thinking I'm the only one who's doing this or afraid or whatever. And that sense of no, this is just part of the human experience and dust myself off and go get back to work and enjoy the process. Knowing that that's inherently how it works.

Yeah. And every day like today, even just before we got on the air together, you know, I've accomplished a lot. I haven't missed a step today, but I still don't feel good. And I had to kind of examine that and say, where's all this coming from? And part of that is just this kind of non conscious. We talked about this earlier, this fear that it's not going to work out. And I think just look at the next action and get that done and have some faith. But you know, it is common humanity. No matter how successful we've been and no matter where we are in our lives, this can be the way we're operating. And so for some people to think, well, someone who's published all these things and understands this, then they must be apart from that, stand above it. No, it's not true. In fact, the reason I can be successful is that I'm willing to apply the strategies in my life on a day to day basis. And that's when it comes back fully to that eastern perspective. It's the practice, it's the sitting, it's the doing. It's not that you've transcended these things, it's you've developed a way of life that builds that wholeness.

Chop wood, carry water, wash the rice bowl. Right.

Yes, exactly. And you know, and I think again that's where we've come, I was so happy to accept your invitation is that you're a lover of wisdom. And I think that's where this comes together. It is the wisdom of making a life. And what's profoundly important to me when it comes to understanding procrastination is that there's only one limited resource you and I really have and that's time itself. And we don't know how much of it we're going to get. And so when we procrastinate, we're really wasting our own lives in a profoundly important way. In fact, I think that's why every major world religion has some notion of sloth which can roughly be translated into this notion of procrastination as well, because it's wasting the most precious gift we have, which is our lives. So sometimes we might just say, oh, I'm procrastinating on this or that. No, in some ways you're procrastinating on getting on with life itself. And that's for me, why Procrastination is a deeply existential issue and one which. The flip side, much like Brene Brown's work on shame, the flip side is wholehearted living. And the flip side of the study of procrastination is really embracing life and having a sense of agency.

Beautifully said. So inspiring. Is there anything that we didn't discuss that you want to bring to light? Covered a ton.

I think you've really done good job at guiding the interview in terms of questions asked. And the most recent research we've been doing has been on this notion of future self. And then I've mentioned in passing that there's many different forms of delay. And we're really eager to continue to distinguish other types of delay from procrastination because for many people, they get to the end of the day and some things aren't done and they beat themselves up and they use that terrible word of procrastination which brings with it guilt and shame and all these other things. But in fact, the delay was rather purposeful because there's only so many things you can do in a day and you had to optimize things and said, well, this has to wait while I do that, or this inevitable delay that things come up and we have no control over and it means some things have to wait. And I think it's important that we recognize all these flavors of delay in our lives and then understand when we're truly becoming our own self defeating foe. And then work on that. But then understand that, yeah, delay is part of life, delay is part of practical reason, delay is part of optimizing and strategizing and that sometimes delay is even an outcome of having some sort of emotional distress. So people who are depressed or someone who's grieving, and those can often go dance hand in hand or terribly stressed, your problem's not procrastination. The problem are these emotional problems and you need to focus on those first and the other thing will go away. And I think that's really important to understand those differences and not throw them all into one bucket, which is procrastination.

So powerful and again, so inspiring to just imagine and to look into the work that you're doing with your colleagues and the wisdom that's coming out of that. That's just empirically based, scientifically grounded, and so practical. If you could share. I'd like to wrap up these interviews with one final question, which is if you could share one piece of wisdom, it might be something we already discussed or something outside of that with someone passionate about optimizing their lives and actualizing their potential. What would that one piece of wisdom be?

Well, I'd have to borrow from a person that we both admire in terms of productivity, David Allen, because those are his words. But I would say don't ruminate on your emotions. Don't focus on the resistance you feel. Acknowledge it. But then say, but what's the next action? So what I've added to this strict productivity focus, which is a really important one, is the fact that I'm acknowledging that I'm going to have this emotional response, this resistance, and that it's real, but that I have to not ruminate on that and instead let it be. Because you know that emotions come and go. But for all of your listeners here, if I could put a bubble over your head and it allowed me to see every one of the emotions you had, and the only control you had was to turn it off or on. I know most people turn it off because we have crazy thoughts and emotions over the course of a minute or two. And so you have to recognize, and this goes back to the Eastern philosophy, this sort of Buddhist perspective of monkey mind, that we've got this tumultuous life experience or internal experience of thoughts and emotions and acknowledge that they're going on, but then say, and then what is my next action? And just put those actions together. And that to me, it's going full circle to where you and I started. That truly is the secret. Yeah, and I guess it's my kids. You know, we both have young children and Kung Fu Panda, and I get to watch all these great movies. And this one's a few years ago, of course, but. But the secret is that there is no secret. And it's so much fun when it comes down to those sorts of things, even when we do all this science and all this work, that the wisdom is something as simple as just get started. Don't focus on the emotions, just get started on the next action. And magical things are going to happen. So that's where I think I would want to end it.

Amazing. Tim, I appreciate you and your grounded wisdom and just passionate pursuit of all these ideas. If people want to connect more obviously, I so highly recommend solving the procrastination puzzle, which you can find on Amazon or wherever you buy books and then website procrastination ca. Is that the best?

Yeah. And then back in 2005, as podcasting was just emerging, I began a podcast called I Procrastinate.

Awesome. That's right. And then you also.

And in there I do interview colleagues from around the world and kind of dive into the research end of things. So different, sometimes different than the conversation we've had. But for those who are hungry to hear about the details of studies, that's a place to go to.

That's fantastic. So I procrastinate. Search for that in itunes or stitcher wherever you do your podcast listening. And then you also have a popular blog on Psychology Today, right?

Yes. Yeah, I've been. And I've returned to it. I hadn't been writing for the past year because I was so busy administratively, but now on sabbatical, I've been writing again. And I know I'm a little distracted because my edited book is due at the end of this month, but you'll see a lot more writing coming there as well.

That's great. So Tim. And then Tim's last name is spelled P Y C H Y L. P Y C H Y L. Tim, thank you so much. I'm thrilled to be connected.

My pleasure, Brian. Great to meet you, if only virtually.

Yes.

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