Interview - Introvert Power with Laurie Helgoe

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Hi, this is Brian. Welcome back to the Optimal Living Interview series. Today I'm really excited to be chatting with Lori Helgo, PhD, who wrote the fantastic book Introvert power subtitle why your inner life is your hidden strength. Many people think that I'm extroverted because I do put out a lot of energy with my creative work, but I am not. We'll talk today with Lori about how we're an integrated, dynamic integration of introversion and extroversion. But I definitely lean toward the introversion. So I was really, really inspired by this book and got a ton out of it. Lori, I really appreciate you and your work and taking the time to chat today.

Thank you for having me, Brian.

So let's start with just a basic definition of terms. What does it mean to be introverted?

Right. It means to be internally oriented. And what I mean by that is that we like to process things internally. I think of introversion more in terms of how we process information than in terms of our social world. But it affects our social world. So introverts like to take things in, think about them, then express a thought in its final form. Whereas extroverts are more comfortable and more motivated to put things right out there. Actually, their brains are kind of wired to seek rewards externally. So they like to get things out there, get responses quickly, bad things back and forth, and kind of think through talking. Introverts like to think first and then talk. So this internal orientation means that there's a lot going on inside. When we bring all this data in and we're working it, people may not think that there's much going on because the surface is quiet, but it's very active. So a lot of people can relate to the definition that introverts gain energy by going inward. That's kind of the center of. That's kind of our energy source. Also, I think that the reason for that is that we need to pull back from too much external stimulation because, yeah, because we do naturally crunch things inside and we're rather absorbent. You know, we have to limit, you know that. So we're kind of energized by going within and we're rather drained by too much external stimulation. And extroverts seem to be rather the opposite, that they are really, like I said, wired to seek out action in the external world. And they're energized by that. They may get actually kind of bored with too much solitude and really need to rev Things up.

Yeah, that's great. I love that distinction of just where do we get energized? And all the information that we're processing internally, when we combine that with what our society kind of deems as the appropriate way to interact with the world, which is in the more extroverted tendencies, that can be draining for us. Right?

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It's like we're trying to. I would say, for introvert conversation, like, introvert to introvert is like jazz, where one kind of goes off on his riff and plays, improvises until it's all out and the next one then picks up. And, you know, if you're trying to play jazz, well, you know, extrovert is batting you balls. Because I think extrovert conversations are more like a tennis match. You know, it's pretty tough to do. And I think that's kind of the challenge that introverts are often faced with, is we get these balls being, you know, batted our way while we're trying to, you know, express the nuances of. Think through the nuances of our. Of our solo.

I love it. And one of my favorite thoughts, which is, I don't think it was in the book, but I saw you tweet it, and I thought it was. I literally. I think I'm gonna put it on my bio page. It so perfectly captures that you say, I like to party, and by party, I mean read books.

Yes, yes. And I can't claim that that's original. I did pick that up from another, you know, another contributor. But, yeah, I do relate strongly to that.

Well, that's interesting.

Just to go on that tangent for a moment. Would this explain part of why for me, I love people. And you talk about this in the book as well. It's not that introverts are antisocial. It's just that we really want to connect intimately. So when it's one individual or a couple coming over or family coming over to hang out and spend time together, it's very, very different than going to a party where there's everyone there and there's just such a superficial connection. Can you talk about that in the context of your work?

Right, exactly. I think, you know, I've said in my book that the problem with small talk for introverts is not that it connects us with people, but that it actually limits connection. And that's part of the frustration is we really don't like to have to do this preliminary small talk. We want to just kind of, like, get inside. I mean, we like our own insides we like other people's insights too. And so again, you know, it's really work. I mean, I think it's work for a lot of of people, including extroverts sometimes to do that. Although my husband would be excluded. He's an extrovert who loves to, you know, meet new people and kind of size them up pretty quickly. But I think that's particularly hard work for an introvert because it just is not where our interest lies. We tend to be more idea oriented and so we want to get to what people are thinking, you know, not so much. We can be pretty bored by information about people, you know, just reporting on what family members are doing or, you know, gossip tends to bore us. We want to get to the meaty ideas.

Yeah, that's awesome. Well, so much there. Let's talk about the. It's not the fact that it's not either or you make this great distinction as well, that it's not like you're either introverted or extroverted, but there's this dynamic integration. Can you describe that for us?

Yes, exactly. Well, Carl Jung, I think I like his conception, which is that whatever we express consciously, we have its opposite, you know, as a less developed function within and we draw on both. I mean, when you think about it throughout the day, you know, all of us probably are at times reflective, which would be an introvert function, and expressive, which is extrovert function. We use both capacities. But I think the difference is we tend to. What I ask people is when you're under stress or you're really tired, do you prefer to be alone or do you seek out people? And that can kind of help people make that distinction about where it is that kind of home base. Is home base kind of inside, or is it home base in connection with people or with stimulating activity? And so I think I love the concept of the yin and the yang, the whole Tai Chi symbol, this idea that when we really indulge one side of the personality, we naturally then want to move toward the other side. And the problem for introverts is we've been not allowed to indulge our introvert side. We've become psychological bilingual, whether we want to or not. We're trained, you know, in extroversion from birth, practically from our first play dates, you know, so whereas, and the studies have shown this is that introverts, it's easier for them to act extroverted than it is for an extrovert to act introverted. And which makes sense because introvert skills are really not fostered in our society. I mean, do we teach solitude skills along with social skills? No. In fact, we worry about the little girl who's upstairs reading. And I think about it, she's reading, hello, she's happy. But we've been, you know, that's so in our DNA, our cultural DNA, to worry about people who enjoy solitude. So yeah, so I think that in my book I really advocate, you know, just kind of a immerse immersion in our own introversion. But that naturally, with that with really allowing ourselves to be fully who we are, we'll want to, you know, Jung's thought was in midlife anyway, people often find themselves bored with their full time personality and want to expand out a bit. And so that in a breath. And I do, I talk to people who notice that like, okay, I'm kind of extroverts who are tired of the, you know, heavy social, you know, occupation and want to pull inward and introverts who start dancing on tables. There's the balance we all seek.

I think that's great. And that dynamic integration. And you talk a lot about in the book, and you referenced it briefly here of just our culture and what it supports. And we're so conditioned to be externally extrinsically rather oriented, particularly in the US and we just were recording this a few days after the 4th of July. So, you know, celebrated American patriotism. You have a phrase in there that you share. I think it was from Isabel Briggs Myers who talked about being psychologically patriotic. We've touched on that in different ways. But can you describe the power of that phrase for us?

Yeah, I love that term of hers, meaning that we are patriotic and loyal to our own preferences. So if somebody says after work at the end of the day, hey, let's go at a happy hour, that'll be fun. Instead of saying, yeah, that sounds great, but in making up an excuse which is disloyal to yourself because you're saying, you know, yeah, I want to do this, but you know, maybe I'm too tired or, you know, I'm too much of a loser to really want to go when you really, what you mean is really sounds boring to me. Really looking forward to getting home and you know, going to the woods by myself or, you know, whatever. I mean that's psychological patriotism. When we. And I think that the problem for introverts is that we've learned to mask our preference and to inadvertently be disloyal to ourselves. We may act out of loyalty, we may find that time, but we talk about it Maybe in a way that diminishes it and makes it sound like a liability or a problem when, you know, we know deep down it's not that at all.

Yeah, that's amazing. And it's. The story I used to have for myself was something was wrong with me that, you know, in college everyone wanted to go and go to the bars and do all that thing, and it was the most uninteresting thing to me in the world. But I didn't have anywhere near the perspective that I do now. To see that, to have that psychological patriotism. The other phrase that I love you use is introvert integrity. And to actually see that as a strength, not a weakness, which of course is what your entire book is all about.

Right, right, exactly.

One of the things that came up as you were describing this idea that when the little girl was upstairs reading, we kind of wonder. Right. And the other thing I realized, we have a three year old and as he's going to be three in a few months. And I just struck me one day how bizarre it is that we punish children by forcing them to be alone. That not only do we get nervous about them when they are alone, but that's actually a form of punishment. Go in the room by yourself. And it came up for me because you planted the seed of the fact that we are socialized on how to socialize, but we are not socialized on how to spend time alone. And in fact, we associate that with doing something wrong or being wrong. Right.

Oh, that's brilliant. And that's right. Yes, yes. What a message that sends. This is supposed to be painful. This is your punishment. I know. I've heard from introverts who say I loved it, but yeah, that's a strong one.

Let's go down that path a little bit. How do we build solitude? You call it solitude skills. So rather than social skills, how do we build solitude skills?

Well, I think sometimes it's as simple as letting the child be who he or she is and really applauding their ability to entertain themselves. You know that and also kind of tuning in, asking about that inner world. Instead of saying, come out here where the life is, how about saying, show me the life you're living in here. And by in here, I don't necessarily mean indoors, I mean in, you know, in your head, in your imagination. Be curious about that. I just posted something on my introvert power page, Facebook page that, you know, this cartoon of the introvert, you know, having these. Wow. These volume of thoughts in the thought bubble and then the beach bubble had nothing. And, you know, it's like we lose out on this richness if we don't. If we don't be curious about it. And the problem is children, and you know this with your 3 year old, is that they look to adults to find out how they're doing. So the kid slips and falls and looks to the parent to decide whether to cry or not because, you know, is the parent freaked out and the parents freaked out? The child's gonna freak out. And I think it's the same with this kind of thing. It's a child, the parents all worried. If you're by yourself, the child then takes in, oh, what's wrong? You know, with me, I'm weird. You know, there's something. Yeah, like you said, you know, that. That sense that there's something wrong instead of seeing the strength and the gift that that comes with that capacity to be alone. I mean, psychoanalysts have talked about that for years about the capacity to be alone as a hallmark of mental health. We all end up having to experience alone. But having the experience of being alone and feeling that you have company in that aloneness is the kind of experience that promotes mental health. And so you can see that a child who doesn't feel like the parent is with them when they're alone, and I don't mean necessarily physically with them, but supportive, interested, connected, is not going to be so learned to have solitude skills is going to have a harder time developing solitude skills. It's like I. And then they feel really alone. Then it's a different kind of alone. It's not just, you know, that. That rich solitude, but it's a feeling perhaps of disconnection or abandonment.

Yeah, so much goodness there. And it's exactly been our experience of just disciplining ourselves. And we follow something called rye. I don't know if you're familiar with RAI parenting methodology, but it's just fantastic. And this idea of warm, neutral response to basically everything. We are not overreacting. It's been fascinating to actually have fun having those moments be not times when we get up, if he falls down, it's not a rush in and dramatize it, but just observe and then actually kind of have fun with it. This is how it happens. No big deal. Sometimes in life you fall down and you get back up. And literally, he started saying that and it was just one of the most fun experiences. But yeah, love that. Yeah, it's so inspiring. And so again, that comes back to. As parents, there's kind of two things. One, we're always obviously teaching the most by what we're doing and who we are and how we relate to our own silence and space by ourselves. And then how do we cultivate that? So as adults, let's say that we didn't have the wonderful context that you just laid out where solitude was celebrated. How do we cultivate our own solitude skills at whatever life stage we're at?

Right, right. I think one thing I emphasize in my book is just for people to keep introverts to keep in mind that a good 50% of the population shares your preference. I think there's something helpful about remembering that even being in a room, even at a party, knowing that there's people, you know, that share your preference, so that there can be that sense of being alone together. There's a community of people who have this preference. And I find that introverts have really gravitated toward social media sites that, you know, for introverts, because there can be that mirroring that they didn't get as kids, like, oh, yeah, me too. I want, you know, I can't wait to be home on a Friday night. Me too. You know, I hate small talk. And then I think there is. People can kind of nourish that part of themselves and feel in community around that. I mean, we don't want to go to the meeting, but we'll communicate this remote way. So that's one way. And I think finding, you know, I think it's important for introverts to have introverted friends. I think, you know, extrovert introvert relationships are also enriching in different ways. But I think we need spaces where we can just have that kind of room for our jazz solo and, you know, kind of experience. There's a term another psychoanalytic series talked about is quiet pleasure. The importance of sharing quiet pleasure. And I find that happens. And he was talking about parents, you know, fostering that, where, you know, you're sitting, maybe doing different activities even, but you're. You're quiet together. I find that that gets created in a coffee shop where people, you know, it's completely socially appropriate to read a book by yourself, but you're surrounded by people. I've written most of my books in coffee shops because I love that nourishment where I'm alone, but I'm with other people being alone, and I love that. And I have extrovert friends who say, I could not do that because I'd want to talk to everybody. It's like, no, I have A And so I think, and I think the coffee shop movement is one huge validation that very introverts in our midst. As is, you know, the popularity of the Internet. So. Yeah, so I think those are ways I think, you know, I loved going. I went through psychoanalysis and in part because what a luxury to have somebody listening to just me. And for me to have that experience of real intimacy with my own thoughts, with another person witnessing and helping me to kind of firm up who I am instead of, you know, imposing his or her values or thoughts into me.

I love it. Well, those are some wonderful ways to build the solitary skills. And again, grounded on the idea that it matters. Right. Giving yourselves permission to see again, as the subtitle says, that our inner life is in fact our hidden strength, which I think is a huge roadblock. Right. When we don't even get that, then there's just no permission to actually start cultivating the muscle of. And independence and solitude, etc. Can you tell us about. You mentioned in the book some thoughts around language and how you've written a number of books and one of them, your editor or publisher or someone announced the deadline and it just blew you away. Can you talk to us about that?

Yeah. She said the final deadline was called the drop dead date. I thought, oh, well, wow, that kind of language, you know, what kind of pressure that puts into the creative process. And I think again, it's like the high pressure tennis game. And I might note that I suck at tennis, so that might be why I choose that metaphor. But I know many introverts who are wonderful tennis players, but they're also not trying to think through philosophical as they're playing the game. But anyway, yeah, so now I've gotten distracted by the tennis balls. What did you ask me?

No, we were just. I was asking you to reflect on the time when your publisher said that the drop dead.

Oh, yes, right, right. And so I just was thinking about that language and deadlines and the pressure oriented approach to creativity and I thought, you know, what if we thought in terms of birth lines, birth times instead in terms of a book or a creative product, because that's how I work, is that I become full with thoughts before I'm ready to birth them. And it very much feels like a psychological pregnancy that I'm thinking a lot before I write anything down. And I think many introverts have that process, many creative people have that process where there's a lot of metabolizing going on inside and then you feel the pressure to release it and it's natural. Nobody has to push you. You want to push it out. And so I just find that, that metaphor so much more inviting and relevant than the whole deadline and drop dead. But I think it speaks a lot of our society and how we mechanize things and we pull ourselves away from the natural process, which I think introverts are naturally more. More attuned to. We're often nature lovers, but we also often work better at the pace of nature and you know, high pressure board meetings don't often welcome that pace. Yeah.

So good. Or packed schedule. I mean, one of the things I love is having a calendar that's nearly entirely free. Right. Just that autonomy to create and to be present with whatever is kind of coming up at the moment rather than always under some other someone else's schedule. We've hit a lot and obviously we can talk about a lot more. We've talked about a lot. I should be. We're just being aware of our language and I say we hit a lot. I'm thinking of those tennis balls you're watching. Go back and forth by the pool. You're on now. Is there any. What's that?

Right. Yes.

Is there anything that we didn't discuss that you want to chat about before I ask a couple of questions to kind of wrap it up?

Well, you've really covered some ground in a way that invites depth, which I very much appreciate. So I'm good and I don't. Yeah, I'm not feeling bombarded by the tennis balls.

Wonderful. Well, I like to kind of conclude by asking two questions. One is if you're open to sharing some insight into your own practices and what you do. My work in our work in these optimal living sessions and classes and stuff is really grounded in fundamentals. So the basic things that we've learned help us stay connected to our highest selves. And so I just love to ask authors. I admire what they do. So if you're open, I'd love to hear what things you've learned really work for you, practically speaking, on a kind of consistent daily or weekly basis.

Okay. One, I say no. And one thing that can be rather challenging is to say no to opportunities. I'm on a nine month teaching contract and I had an opportunity to for a promotion that would have gotten me to a 12 month contract. I said no. And because that replenishment I get in the summer is so essential and it makes my quality life. Quality improves the quality of my life, but it also improves the quality of my work. So there's that I find it necessary and very important for me to take solitary walks and to get outside. I find that even when I'm alone, sometimes I get cluttered by my own thoughts and I need to actually pull away from them and make more room. Meditation is another wonderful practice that puts more space between the thoughts. Travel is another practice. I like to work into my life as much as possible. A change of scenery does helps me so much pull away from. Yeah, I say, you know, we talk about small talk. Well, there's also such things as small thoughts that we can get stuck in repetitive thought patterns. Not all thought is profound. And so for me, a change of scenery often opens up my thinking and stimulates new places in my brain. I love to be a flaneur, to go to a new part of the city or a new place and stroll around and take in new sights. Recently I've started painting, which calls on a whole new part of my brain. It's very intuitive process and it's very restorative and relaxing. I mean, I have to say that these aren't things I force myself to do, but they are things that I just allow myself to do because the desire is already there. And I think most introverts can relate to it. It's more the permission to do them. I think the biggest challenge for me and many introverts is the fomo, the fear of missing out. I've really made a practice or try not to tell people, you have to see this or you have to do that, because we bat that around a lot and you get that you have to go to this party, you have to do this as if, you know, you're missing out on the world's greatest event. And I have to really give my, you know, tell myself, yes, I may miss out. And yet what will I miss out on if I do go? You know, that's the part we don't question. What do I miss out on by depriving myself of the solitude? I promise myself I also love to write. It's a conversation I can have with myself and it takes the thoughts out of my head. It's the closest thing I can find to Harry Potter's Pensieve or Dumbledore's Pensieve, which I want one of those. Fold your thoughts out and put it in a big pot and pull the ones out that you need so your mind doesn't get too cluttered. But a journal, as Michael at the closest thing I find to that. Those are some of the things I do.

That's great. Thank you and the energy that I felt as you were describing that, and the kind of humility and spaciousness with which you described it, is that another one of your phrases of melting into introversion, where there's not the continued yang forcing, but the real melting into and allowing that to be part of your life because it's an authentic desire, not because it's a should that you think you need to integrate. Well, thank you so much for sharing. That's great. And then the final question I like to ask is if you can only share one piece of wisdom with people who are passionate about optimizing their lives and actualizing their potential and making a difference in the world, what would that one piece of wisdom be?

I think it would be listen to the small voice. And also a little piece of recommendation would be to go see the movie inside out because there's a voice in there that kind of gets brushed aside for a while. That's very important. But I think that the thing that we often are pushing aside is the thing that's our deepest wisdom. And that little feeling that, yeah, even as you're saying, yeah, that sounds great. To have this little voice saying, no it doesn't. And to try to tune in and give that. That voice more airtime.

Wonderful. Well, thank you, Laurie. This has been wonderful. I appreciate your time and again appreciate you and your wisdom and embodiment of these ideas and so happy to be connected.

Me too. Thank you so much. Brian.

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