Interview: The Art of Work with Jeff Goins

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Hi, this is Brian. Welcome back to the Optimal Living Interview series. Today I'm thrilled to be chatting with Jeff Goines, who is a writer, very popular writer, who's written a number of books. The one we're going to talk about today is the Art of Work. A proven path to discovering what you are meant to do. I really enjoyed it, and we get so much feedback on all the work we do around purpose and discovering our calling. And if that's something that you are pursuing right now or know someone who's pursuing that, which is basically everyone, I think you'll enjoy the book. And I'm really excited to chat about a few of my favorite big ideas. Jeff, thanks for taking the time.

Yeah, my pleasure, Brian. Thanks for having me.

All right, man, let's start at the top. The Art of Work subtitle. A proven path to discovering what you're meant to do. Tell me how you came up with, let's name this the Art of Work.

Well, like a lot of the good titles, like a lot of the best titles for my books, I did not come up with it. So I can't remember what we wanted to call this. I think I wanted to call it like, art and work or something. And my agent at the time said, you need to call this the Art of Work. And I was like, oh, that's good. So, yeah, I mean, I think the. The idea behind that, though, is so many books and so many people, well meaning people, but people nonetheless, that I can't really relate to. And I know a lot of people that can't relate to this kind of message say that, you know, in order to find your purpose, in order for you to discover your dream job, in order for you to do what you're meant to do. It is a process. It is a step by step systematic formula that you follow. And I mean, let's just be honest, life doesn't follow formulas. And so I found my dream job. I kind of created this path that felt like I was very much moving towards my life's calling. And when I got there and people said, how did you do it? My first reaction, my response, was to give them this formulaic response that a lot of people give, which is, I figured out what I wanted to do. You know, I discovered what I wanted to do. I got a vision for my future, and. And then I worked really hard and I had some failure, overcame those obstacles, and then I succeeded. And now I'm the guru telling Other people how to do it. This is kind of the way, like, self help stuff works. And that's what I was doing. Cause I thought, like, this is what you have to do. You have to sort of sanitize your story, lie a little bit and say, like, I've got my crap together. I'm sorry that you don't. And when I started interviewing people for this book, they started telling me their stories. And I realized it was a lot messier than that. And as they were telling me their stories, people who had also found their callings, I realized these things were true about my story as well. I was just changing it a little because I thought that's what I was supposed to do as a guru, is like, make it sound easier and more systematic and more formulaic than it really is. And so the art of work is this idea that it's not a science, it's an art work. And I use that as sort of your life's work. The thing that you're supposed to do with your skills and gifts and passion, like, it's an art, you know, and there's lots of different ways to get to, you know, your destination, your dream job. And it's going to be messy. It's going to feel more like a path, you know, with twists and turns. And you can't necessarily see all the way down the road. Uh, but as you get a little bit further down, you look back and you go, oh, like that makes total sense. So that's the idea behind the title, right on it.

I love the way you stress that, you know, that, that and you say finding your purpose is more of a path than a plan. It involves those twists and turns you never expected. Ultimately, these surprises lead you to your destiny. And then you make the great point that once you get there, you've really just begun. Get ready for the next leg, right?

Yeah, yeah. And it really is a lifelong journey. So when I say destination, you know, really like the journey is, is the destination. It is a lifelong process. The Art of work describes this, these, these sort of seven stages. And I'm, you know, very clear, like, look, these aren't steps, but like, like these stages kind of overlap in life and they're, they're constant themes that continue for the rest of your life. The first one is awareness. It's this idea that, like, before I can tell my life what I want to do with it, as Parker Palmer says, I need to listen to my life telling me who I am. So listening to your life is this practice that you do Initially to go, what am I really supposed to do? Who am I really? But then you do that throughout the rest of your life. It's a discipline of asking yourself over and over and over again, what resonates with me? What am I made to do? And we try different things that we think are going to make us successful or famous or whatever. And sometimes we fail and we go, wait, wait, wait a second. This thing that I thought I wanted isn't what I really wanted. So you're constantly course correcting as you go. And I like to say that you're not done until you're dead. And so the destination is your deathbed destination is a fulfilled life. So that when you're lying on your deathbed you go, look, it wasn't a perfect life. I made mistakes. But I do not regret becoming the person that I was meant to become. I do not regret missing that. And I think a lot of people do miss it and you don't have to. And this is a book that tries to shed some light on things that extraordinary and ordinary everyday people do to live lives of greater purpose and fulfillment.

Yeah, that's awesome. You do a great job of weaving in stories of just kind of normal person. Right. In each of those seven characteristics of a calling. And I want to talk about calling a little bit more, which is a word that you use a lot throughout the book and kind of what that means for you. And then just do a quick overview of those seven steps and talk about some of my favorite insights related to them. But can you just tell us a little bit more about calling and what that means for you?

Yeah, so, you know, some people sort of attach a religious connotation to this word. I think that's fine. You know, I have, you know, I'm a person of faith, but I wrote this book, you know, in a more agnostic way really, because I just found it very, very interesting that my friends from church and my non church friends, like, you know, my, my friends who didn't care anything about religion, a lot of them use this term calling, this idea that your life is about something and that something is bigger than you. So you know, you can use it with purpose or life's work or whatever. And I use a lot of those words as well. But I like the idea of calling because it suggests that there's something bigger than you that's calling you to it. It could be the work itself, the universe, God. And everybody I talk to practically says this about the work that they're doing or the work that they wish they could do. And we hear this so often, it's become cliche. You know, I like my job, or it's okay or whatever, but it's not what I was meant to do. And it seems that we are. Are almost entitled these days to finding fulfilling work. And I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing at all. I just think it's where we're at culturally right now, which is why I wrote this book. I wanted to give some language to some feelings that a lot of people were already having, which was this sense of angst, like, I don't want my job to just be a means to making a living. I want it to be a means to making a meaningful life. So a calling is really. I describe it as the reason you were born. Like, this is why you're here, and you're going to spend the rest of your life figuring that out. And I don't think that a job completely equates to a calling. But at the same time, if you're spending eight hours a day, you know, a third of your life working, you know, spend some time thinking about how can you be intentional about integrating that work with your calling and vice versa.

Yeah, I love it. And the first. One of the aspects of. The first characteristics of awareness that I loved was you say you must believe that you were called to something, right? Because if you don't have that belief that there's something bigger than us that's calling us to figure out what we're here to do, well, then good luck ever really getting on the path. Right?

Yeah. Right. Yeah. And that's something. That sense that I was meant for more. I call that awareness. And it's. It's a little nagging feeling that keeps you up late at night or gets you up early in the morning. And every once in a while, I run into somebody who doesn't have that feeling. They're fine with everything. And I don't. I don't wish those people ill. You know, I don't judge that at all. But I can't relate to it, you know, because so many people I know, you know, are sort of their lives are saying either explicitly or implicitly, that thing that Jack Nicholson said in that great movie, is this as good as it gets? Like, is this all there is? Or is there more to life? And the idea behind the Art of Work is that, yes, there's more to life. This is not all there is. You were meant to do interesting, meaningful work, and you have a responsibility. If you feel that Tug that nag. You can't ignore it. You've got to figure it out. It won't necessarily be easy, but the pain that you feel of trying it and failing is less than the pain of regret of never attempting it at all.

Right on. So that's a pretty good look at the first characteristic, awareness. Then we have the second is apprenticeship and the third is practice. I want to talk about painful practice. Talk about the importance of getting out of your comfort zone.

Yeah. So painful practice is this idea that one of the myths that I tackle in the book is that just because it's easy doesn't necessarily mean that you should do it, and vice versa. Just because it's hard doesn't necessarily mean that it's not your calling. And I see so many people give up worthy pursuits because it gets hard at some point. Here's what I learned through this little research project that I did. I interviewed hundreds of people who had found their calling. And I found a lot of similar themes amongst all these different case studies. And they resonated with me, you know, with my own experience. And they resonated with a lot of biographies of famous people that inarguably discovered what they were meant to do. People like Mother Teresa and Walt Disney. Not perfect people, but people who left an impact in the world nonetheless. And, you know, one of those themes was that at a certain point it got hard. In fact, it always got hard. And it kind of aligns with this idea that we've heard before about the 10,000 hour rule, which is based on a study by a guy named Kay Anders Ericsson. But one of the interesting things about that study that people don't realize is it's not just about 10,000 hours doing anything. It's 10,000 hours of what he calls deliberate practice. And one of the qualities of deliberate practice is you basically have to, you know, in athletics or in music, which were, you know, some of the people that they studied, you had to push yourself to the limits of your ability. Right. I mean, if you think about working out. Right. Not that I'm necessarily all that acquainted with working out, but I aspire to one day be acquainted with working out. No, like you think about going into the gym or whatever, or, you know, training for a half marathon, you want to get better, right? So if you're going to get stronger, you don't just lift the same amount of weights every time, like just do the 10 pound dumbbell or whatever. I really can't do much more than that. You don't just do that. Because you're not going to get much stronger. Repetitions help, but at a certain point, you've got to do more reps and probably increase the weight. And so that's that idea of deliberate practice. So what that means is, when I'm in the gym and I want to get a little bit stronger, guess what's going to happen? It's got to hurt a little bit, you know, like, this isn't. I wish it didn't hurt, you know, but at the same time, that pain, any, you know, any bodybuilder knows this. Like, that pain means that something good is happening. I think the same thing is true in work and pursuing what you're meant to do. At a certain point, it gets hard. And that doesn't mean that you should quit. In many ways, it means that you should keep going. But here's the thing. If you keep going and you don't like it anymore and it just kind of sucks, then you probably should quit it. Because the people that I know who love the work that they do, when it's tough, when it's hard, when it's painful, they still love it. And so painful practice is this idea, like, push yourself to the limits of what this craft demands of you and see if you still like it. And if you do, it just might be your calling.

That's awesome. I love the way you describe it. And we talk a lot about Anders Ericsson's work and his new book, Peak. Yeah, really excited stuff and just so cool, just that importance. And I love the way you just described it and you described it in the book of being willing to get out of your comfort zone and the beauty of homeostasis.

Right.

We're going to recover and get stronger so we can handle that new challenge. But it's not just about putting in the reps, but being willing to invite that pain. Which actually brings us perfectly to the next idea I wanted to hear your thoughts on. I described it as you juxtaposing leaps versus bridges. A lot of times, as you say, we have this naive notion of making a big leap, and you say it's more about building bridges, and you juxtapose that desire. We have to want a clear map vis a vis. What we really need is a shovel. Can you talk to us about that?

Yeah. Well, this is this idea that you're uncovering your calling, that it's more about looking backward than it is about looking forward. And I talked about listening to your life, and that's what I think we're talking about here. If you're going to figure out what you're meant to do. It's probably not something completely new. At the same time, you're not constrained by the things that you've done. So, like, if your dad was a plumber and your grandpa was a plumber and you grew up plumbing, you don't have to be a plumber, right? But the chances are that hidden in your past is some clue about your future. And so I say it like this. The past doesn't dictate your future, but it should inform it. So, for example, when I was kind of feeling this angst, you know, I was in this good job. I was kind of approaching the end of my 20s, and I just saw this pattern. You know, I've been working at this job five years, and basically at the end of every year, I got a raise, I got a little bit more responsibility. I got a raise, I got a little bit more responsibility. It happened every year. And so that was really exciting, you know, like being a hamster and going up and getting the little water thing, getting a little drip. And I was like, oh, okay, I do this, I get a reward. I do this, I get a reward. So I kept doing that, and I was like, well, what if I extrapolate this out for the next 10, 15 years and I'm 40 and I'm still doing this, still getting raises, still doing well, still being responsible? How will I feel? And I realized I would have felt like I coasted because what I was doing was easy compared to what was in me, but I didn't know what was in me. So I felt this angst. And I literally drew a line on a piece of paper and started plotting out major moments in my life, memories that popped into my head. And one of those moments was when I won the sixth grade spelling bee and the winning word was acquiescence. And I was like, that's weird, you know, like, how many sixth graders know how to spell acquiescence?

Challenge me to think about how to spell it right now. Nice job.

You know, And, I mean, it was just like, it felt normal to me. And I realized, well, like, that wasn't normal to everybody else because my mom used to read me the dictionary on car rides, because she just. She loved English, you know, that was her thing. She was a very meticulous speller, and she wanted me to be a good speller, too. And it was fun. And so I was like, well, that's weird. Like, not everybody has that sort of experience, you know? Then fast forward to being a teenager and my dad taught me how to play guitar, and I joined a band. My favorite part of being in a band was writing songs. And then I became a Spanish major in college. And I loved language. I loved vocab and grammar and picking apart, you know, the different vocabulary, verb conjugations, and just learning about how do you communicate in a different language? And so you look at these things on the surface, you know, And I used to draw when I was a little kid, and they're all different, right? Was he gonna be an artist? Was he gonna be a musician? Was he gonna be a professional spelling bee champ? Like, what was he gonna do, a translator? And that's how I looked at my life when I graduated college. That's how a lot of people look at their lives, at these moments when they enter adulthood. And sometimes for the rest of their lives, they go, none of this stuff makes any sense. They now, listening to your life is this idea that there's a theme woven throughout all of those things. And when you pay a little bit more attention, you realize, oh, like, what were the things that I was doing when I felt most alive? I was creating. I was making things. And so maybe I'm supposed to be a creative. And at the time, I was a marketing director, and there was a creative component to that and a non creative component. And so as I started listening and looking and paying attention and dabbling in things, I realized I, oh, you know, I'm supposed to be a writer. Or at least that's what I'm supposed to do in this next season of life. And then, so then I started writing, and as I did, I fell more and more in love with it, and it got more difficult, and I love the challenge of it. And I just kept growing through that. So had I never just stopped and paid attention not to what I thought I wanted to do with my life, what I admired about other people's success, but instead grabbed that shovel and started digging up pieces of my life and going, what was I doing when I was feeling most alive again? The past doesn't dictate the future, but it should inform it. So buried in your own personal history are at least clues of some of the things that maybe you should be doing more of.

I love it. So bust out your shovels, get to work. And then the next idea you want to hear you riff on is pivoting, which is kind of, if you do the shovel digging right, and you're kind of looking at the past and seeing where you want to go these days, you try different Things right. Some will work, some won't. I love the way you described that. Pivoting isn't plan B, it's part of the process. And the people didn't succeed in spite of failure, they succeeded because of it. Can you talk to us about that?

Yeah, well, you know, one of the stories in the book and all of these stories sort of, they're all representative of the whole process. But I tried to choose at least one story of somebody I talked to that especially illustrated a certain, you know, step in the process. And so one story I told was the story of this Singaporean single mother named Ginny Pong. And Jeannie becomes a mother. She gets pregnant out of wedlock, which that's a big taboo in Singapore, even bigger than in the United States. And in fact, if you're an unwed mother, you do not have the same social rights in terms of the ability to access welfare or anything like that that you would if you were like a widowed mother. And so, you know, it's a big taboo. Her boyfriend broke up with her, her parents kicked her out of the house. Everybody said, you need to have an abortion, otherwise we're gonna disown you. She didn't wanna have an abortion, so they disowned her. And all of this was kicked off by the fact that she didn't do that well on her exams. And she decides that she wants to have a natural childbirth, even though that isn't really done at the time. All the babies are on formula, everybody has C sections. And she decides for whatever reason that she wants to do it this way. And she told me, she goes, you know, I've always been a rebel. And so she wanted to do this, but her mom didn't know how to coach her through this process. She was living with her aunt at the time because she'd been kicked out of her parents house. Just lots of pain and really failure. Like her life wasn't looking that great. At 23 years old, she's out of work, she's pregnant and she's sleeping. She's initially homeless, then she's sleeping in a family member's house. So she has the baby, ends up having to have a cesarean because it's just too painful and she doesn't know how to deal with that and ends up just really struggling through life for a while and has a very painful experience with childbirth, very confusing. And late at night she spends looking up websites on the Internet about sort of natural child rearing. She decides she wants to nurse and do these different things. She starts connecting with other mothers online who have, you know, similar interests as she does this. One person tells her, who's a doula, says you should be a doula. She's like, what's a doula? A doula is a birth coach. And she ends up taking some classes. She becomes a doula. And long story short, Ginny becomes kind of a national celebrity. She becomes a spokeswoman for single mothers in Singapore. She ends up on national television. She's been in some documentaries, done a lot of really interesting stuff, and now she leads the largest doula organization. And to be fair, she says, look like there's not a lot of doula organizations in Singapore, but she was like the first full time Singaporean doula. And she ends up building this business around this. And she trains birth coaches. And what's really fun about her story is her pain of having a painful childbirth, being disowned by her parents, being sort of a social outcast, being a pariah, all of that gets redeemed. And all of a sudden she gets to be that coach. She gets to be that person who helps all of these mothers walk through their birth plans. She gets to be that person that she never had. So what does it have to do with failure and pivot points and those things? Well, failure, as they say is. They say failure is not an option. Well, that's silly. Of course. Failure is an option. It's going to happen. Failure is an inevitability, right? Failure is an opportunity. And what I learned from studying all these lives of famous, successful people and also just ordinary everyday people living out their life's work is failure was a necessary ingredient in the path to their purpose. But here's the thing. When they failed, when Ginny failed, for example, they didn't give up, they didn't quit. They didn't see it as a sign from God that they should just, you know, close up shop and go do something else. Instead, they figured out a way to pivot around the obstacle, right? They went over it, under it, around it. And a great business example of this is how Groupon got started. Groupon, many people don't know this, started as a non profit entity called the Point. And the guy who started it, Andrew Mason, wanted to use social media to get people to vote on, like charitable activities that they could do. So a year into it, they had lost a million dollars. They're getting ready to lay people off and close up shop. And one of the investors said, what if we try to use all this technology that we've Built. And instead of giving something away, we try to make money and we're like, well, we'll give it a shot. And $13 billion later, that was a pretty profitable pivot and it would not have happened were it not for that million dollar failure. Similarly, were it not for Ginny Pong's failure and just sort of, you know, fumblings through early adulthood, she would not have become this national celebrity speaking hope into the lives of so many mothers in Singapore. So failure is totally an option and more than that, it's inevitable. But the question is not whether or not you're going to fail, but what are you going to do with that failure? How are you going to use it to get you to your ultimate success?

Yeah, that's amazing. Super inspiring to see how we can alchemize those challenging times and those pains. Not as like shouldn't have happened kind of things, but as Ryan Holiday says, the obstacle is the way, right? These are inherent parts of our lives that when we allow them to be the fuel for our growth and contribution, they can be that in a really powerful way. So beautiful story, really inspiring, really appreciate you sharing it. And that actually perfectly again, dovetails to the next idea. I wanted to hear your thoughts on the first of Jeff's seven characteristics of a calling was awareness. And then apprentice, practice, discovery, profession, mastery, legacy. I talk about those a little bit in the note, obviously. Get the book for more details on each. Tell us about the last legacy. What does legacy mean for you and how should we be thinking about it?

So when I was writing this book, I mean, it was really important to me to not sort of be some sort of armchair philosopher or guru saying, hey, at 33 years old, I've got it figured out. Here's what a meaningful life looks like. And so this is why I studied so much. The lives of again, like I said, successful people and then these ordinary everyday people that you may never heard of before, like Jenny Pong, Singapore's first full time doula. And one of the things that surprised me, I guess in this process was realizing that unbeknownst to me, you know, sort of to my own shock, I thought the end of this process was going to be mastery. So when I wrote the book that sort of had these six stages, but, but I realized once you become a master, once you become great at something which kind of in the old days takes a minimum of about 10 years and it's not 10 years of being in the workforce, it's 10 years of doing that one thing. So for most People, you're going to hit mastery at the earliest, at 40 or 50. And then there's this whole, hopefully, second half of life that you get to figure out, what do I do with all this stuff, all this experience, all this knowledge and wisdom? And what I realized is, in my own journey of wanting to reach personal greatness, I was missing some of it. I was missing the whole point. And the point is legacy. And what that means is it's not about you being great, really. You're given all these gifts to be given away. You're called so that you can call others. And so what that looks like is, I think that true success is not what you make or do in this life, but really what you leave behind. And that really is about the people that you invest in, the way in which you multiply your knowledge and your gifts and your wisdom by investing in the lives of other people. And we can all do that in our own ways each and every day, right now with the experience that we have. But, of course, this gives us a goal for greatness as we get better and better and better. The point is not so that people just remember us, but it's so that we can really multiply our influence and our impact by helping other people find their own way in their journeys.

I love it. 7 characteristics of a calling. A proven path to discovering what you were meant to do. The art of work. What did we not talk about that you think is important for us to highlight?

Well, you know, I maybe didn't talk a lot about the leap. You may have asked me about that, and I just didn't respond to it well. I tell this story about how I asked this girl out in college. Some friends of mine told me to go big or go home. I didn't know her that well. And so I was like. I was a little bit nervous about that, but I was like, okay. So I wrote her a song. And one random Saturday, I ran across campus, and I knocked on her dorm room door, and she opened up, and I stepped into this room full of people, and she had about half a dozen friends there, just hanging out on a Saturday. And I realized, like, I'm in a tough spot because if I don't do this right now, I'm never going to do it, because I'm never going to work up the courage again to just kind of kick down this girl's door and ask her out with a song. And yet, on the other hand, if I do this and I risk failure, like, that's not gonna feel good. So I Stepped into her room and I started playing that song. And for about 90 seconds, I played this love song. And I looked in her eyes and everybody looked at her, and she looked at me. And I strum that last C chord. And then there was just this silence. And then she said, I can't. I have to work. And then something worse happened. I decided to not leave. I don't know what was broken in my brain that day that made me think that it was less awkward to, like, play the song, get rejected, and just hang around than it would be to do all that and leave. But that's what I thought. I just hang out for, like, 10 minutes, enjoying the party. You know, people are, like, looking at me with strange looks. I'm like, what? Like, what's the big deal? Like that thing that I just did. No big deal. I do this all the time. It's just another stop on the college dormitory rejection tour. And then finally I get up and, you know, leave after 10 excruciating minutes. And she follows me out and says, thanks and bye, and I left. And it would be a long, long time before I ever did something so bold for a girl ever again. In fact, it would be another four years, I think, before I ever played a song song for a girl like that. And the next girl I serenaded was the woman who became my wife. And the way I approached that relationship was very different from the way I approached the previous one. I treated it not like taking a leap, going bigger, going home. I treated it like building a bridge. And one of the surprising things I found in talking to all these people who are living their dream, when I asked them how they got there, it took a long time. And it was. It was a bunch of gradual effort over time. In fact, I met this couple who started a coffee company in Burundi, the second poorest country in the world. It's in Africa. And I asked them how they got there. Like, how did you get to this point? They moved their whole family to Burundi. And the mom said, well, we took a leap. I said, wow, that's amazing. How long did that take? She said, it took 10 years. And I thought, that's a really long leap. You know, like, that's one of those slow motion matrix jumps, right? Like, that's not a leap. That's a bridge that you build over time. And so if you're thinking about, like, I want to do something meaningful, I have a dream and I don't know how to get there. I'm tired of hearing people say, you just need to take the leap. You need to go big or go home. I don't disagree that maybe that works sometimes for some people, but for most of the people I talk to, most of the people that I know who are succeeding in life and work and are doing the kind of work that most of us would dream of doing, it took a while to get there. They didn't take a leap. They built a bridge.

Amen to all that and I appreciate you sharing that story. That is awesome. Bridges more than leaps and bumped heads in the process that are all part of the process. Process redefining pivots, painful practice, and then that awareness that we're all called for something great. Jeff, I really appreciate you. Where can people connect with you and your work?

Thanks Brian. I really really enjoyed it. These are great questions. You can go to my blog goinswriter.com and if you sign up for the email list, you're going to get the first two chapters of the Art of Work for free. Again, that's goins like coins but with a G writer.com right on G O.

I N S I learned before our chat Coins with the G writer.com check it out and everything else that Jeff is up to, which is a lot of stuff. Once again, thank you Jeff.

Thank you.

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