Interview: The Champion's Mind + Comeback with Jim Afremow

You're listening to Optimize with Bryan Johnson.

More wisdom in less time. Hi, this is Brian. Welcome back to the Optimal Living Interview series. Today I am thrilled to be chatting with Jim Afromo. Jim is one of the world's leading peak performance experts Mental toughness. He has written a couple of great books that we featured. The Champions Mind and the Champions Comeback. I just learned that he's also, he's worked with athletes and organizations in basically every major sports league out there. And I just learned that he's been brought on full time to be the head of peak performance for the San Francisco Giants and all their minor league affiliates, which is just awesome. So congratulations on that. Thank you for the great books and wisdom and thanks for taking the time, Jim.

Thanks so much, Brian. It's great to be with you today.

Yeah, I've really been looking forward to our chat. Peak performance, that idea of a champion's mindset is one of my favorite subjects. And I'm all about more wisdom and less time as well. And the way that you've written both of these books is just perfect. You know, it's just, it's very inspiring, practical, grounded and short and sweet, you know, just to really help us get the wisdom and get it then apply to our lives. So love it.

Thank you so much. Yeah, it's one of those books where both books I think you could just put in your locker or put in your bag or you know, leave in your car. And when you get some downtime, wherever you stop, you could read a few pages. So that was the goal.

Yeah, well, I sat down and just devoured them. But that was exactly my, my perception of it is it's perfect for that. One of the things we talked about as we were prepping was just to orient this. You work with elite athletes now obviously you want to hear about some of that story. But your wisdom is so applicable to individuals who want to live an extraordinary life. So I'd like to start by just talking to us about that.

How do we.

What does it mean to be a champion in our own lives?

You know, the motto for the champions mind book is think gold and never settle for silver. And you know, so you're always striving to be the best you can be at what you love to do most. And so it's, you know, sport is could be one thing, it could be music, it could be business. You're in touch with your values and you're going all out in a positive way. And so, you know, peak performance is peak performance. Whatever you do you want to be your best at.

Yeah, I love it. Let's start with. We're going to start with the champions mind, and then the champions comeback. Jim says it was kind of like handing the baton from one book to the next. We're going to start with the champion's mind, how great athletes think, train, and thrive, and going for gold. So one of the things I loved was you described the vision of a champion, and you talked about one of your favorite examples of that, the story about Mia Hamm and her college coach. Can you share that with us?

Sure. Anson Dorrance is a celebrated, well known, unbelievably gifted coach for University of North Carolina women's soccer. And. And one morning on his way to work, he was driving by an empty field, or at least he thought it was an empty field. And off in the distance, he saw one of his players just, you know, hands on her legs, you know, bent over, drenched in sweat, and, you know, hurting bad. And, you know, so before the day even really started, she was getting her work in. And so he kept driving, got back to, you know, got to his office, and left a note in her locker saying that, you know, the vision of a champion, someone bent over, drenched in sweat, you know, and when no one else is watching. And she actually meant the world to her, and it was Mia Hamm, and she became one of the greatest, you know, soccer players of all time. And she kept that note all these years and put it in her autobiography. It meant so, you know, so much to her. But you want to think about what you look like when you're being tested, you know, when things get tough. And, you know, know, how could that not be inspirational when you see yourself overcoming it?

No doubt. And then when no one's looking. Right. Who are you in those moments? You have so many great quotes in the. In each of your books, and one of them was the Olympic motto for the U.S. what was that? The Olympics aren't every four years or every day.

Yeah. And, you know, and it's a simple arithmetic, but today plus today plus today, you know, equals our dream goals. And so, you know, let's make each day count.

Good stuff. Talk to us about mental toughness. I love the way that you frame it. What do you think it means and how we should look at it?

Yeah. You know, we hear the term mental toughness a lot, but, you know, what is it? And, you know, it's not, you know, having someone yell at you to be tough. It's not clenching your teeth, you know, it's really all about staying positive and proactive and especially when things get tough. And so it's having a great attitude and giving your best effort. And so a lot of times we're more mentally tough than we give ourselves credit for, but that's really what it is. And it's a muscle like anything else, that the more you practice staying positive and proactive, the stronger that muscle will get.

That's awesome. So give us a practical example, like what's your favorite way to practice that?

You know, I think a perfect one is when you have the feeling of, you know, am I going to go work out or. Or sit on the couch and watch my favorite TV show. Well, in that moment of truth, if your dream goal is to, hey, I want to reach certain fitness goals, well, then pushing yourself to get up and get going eventually, the more times you do that, the easier it will be to get to do that and you're not going to regret.

Was actually in Champion's Comeback, where you quoted Abraham Maslow, one of my favorite quotes by him ever, that in any given moment, paraphrasing, at any given moment, we have a choice. We can step forward into growth or back into safety. So basically it's that plus one or minus one, moment to moment to moment, right?

Yeah, absolutely. It's, you know, it's human nature to settle for silver, you know, and so we need to give ourselves that little extra kick to push and go for gold. And, you know, it's really worthwhile to do it, but we have to fight that inner resistance. Fight.

That's cool. Which leads us to the next big idea that I wanted to discuss is ugly but effective. Can you talk to us about the power of that?

Well, you know, it's such a great idea, I think, because, you know, the way we dream it up in terms of playing our sport or, you know, or. Or looking at our careers isn't how it's going to turn out. You know, it's, you know, we're not going to go 4 for 4 at the field in baseball. We're not going to, you know, every report isn't going to be perfect. And, you know, in the business world and, and so when you're having an off day, it's can I hang in there, adjust, compensate, and still make it a win, still make it a positive, still make something good happen. And to me, that's. That's a big separator. So it's getting your C game up to maybe, you know, a higher level as well as getting your A game up To a higher level, no doubt.

And not letting your C game became. Become an F minus game, right?

Absolutely.

You know, when I teach habits one on one and stuff like that, it's. You got to get rid of the kryptonite, because those, those days when you're not quite, not quite there are the days you can really spiral out and get into those bad habits, and then that cascades into a negative spiral, right?

Absolutely. You know, Gary Player, considered one of the greatest golfers of all time. He said he had a great quote. He said, I'd rather finish 113th in a tournament than 114th, because I always want to know that I'm doing my best and I gave it my best shot. And so you take pride in those off days that you got the best day out of yourself that day. Whereas someone else may be, you know, a John Daly figure in the golf world would, you know, he's. When he didn't, what, didn't look like he was going to make the cut, you know, he might walk off the golf course or just, you know, you know, just kind of mentally give up and, you know, that develops bad habits.

Let's sit on the golf course for a while on this theme, too, because I think it was a Jack Nicholas who said that's the difference between really good and great is that the best are able to play basically to have good, bad days. Right. To play ugly but effective.

Yeah. You're, you know, lots of luck if you always think you're going to have your aame. And so usually what happens, what I found with elite performers is they underreact to when they're not at their best. You know, we all know pretty much how to overreact. Right. And champions don't really have a panic button. They just, you know, take a deep breath. Okay. You know, gather myself, and let's stick to it and have the optimism that something good can happen. So on the one hand, you want to be strong enough to really let it rip out there, but then you also need to be tough enough that when things aren't going quite well, you could hang in there and keep battling and keep, keep going.

I love it. I want to go to your three P's in a moment and then also expect that just this as simple. I forget who, which golfer, you may remember, who said they knew they were going to have like seven bad shots around, you know, and they went in knowing that, and then when they had a bad shot, well, there's one. No big deal, right?

Yeah. You know, the stuff's going to hit the fan occasionally. And when it does, it's like, okay, no big deal, clean up the fan.

Yeah, it's awesome. And it sounds simple and it is. But to actually remind ourselves of that, for me, as a recovering perfectionist, that's a very helpful thing to remember and hold those high standards. And then let's talk about your three P's. Now this is actually an idea from the Champions comeback. But you have the three P's of peak performance. Can you talk to us about that? Which seemed to be a very helpful tool when this stuff does hit the fan, right?

Absolutely. You know, number one is you got to get present. And a lot of times that's letting go of the mental brick. Whether it's a mistake or you know, something negative that happened. If you're holding on to that, then you know, then you're fighting yourself. You're not in the moment, you're not taking, taking care of business in the present moment. So whatever the mistake is in that moment could be after game, that loss, you need to put it on. You don't need to put it behind you. You need to put it 100 years behind you. Really get rid of that so you can be present and deal with what's important. Now. You got to stay positive. A lot of athletes tell me and a lot of performers in other achievement domains tell me that the work we do is about helping to keep them positive in a negative world. Cause it's really easy to start getting negative when things aren't going well. But when you really think about, that's when we most need to be positive. So you gotta be positive. You know, if you're down three runs in a baseball game, well, hey, we still have four innings left. You know, let's hang in there and then process. So the third P is process, having that process orientation. What do I need to do now to be successful? So you're not so much worried about the end result. That can wait. But you know, what do I need to do to do my job at the highest level right here, right now.

That's awesome. So present, positive, process oriented.

And you just need to circle through those three Ps, you know, over and over again.

Oh, that's great. So then let's go back to the champions mindset or Champions mind. And we're post performance. Right. And you've got a great little model that I love good, better, best. Can you talk to us about that?

Yeah. You know, most athletes talking about a recovering perfectionistic as you, as you referred to yourself as there's a tendency, unless we have the best day or the best performance out of our lives, you know, we tend to look back on the day or the performance and start nitpicking and, you know, this didn't go well or that didn't go well. So the three, you know, the three, two, one approach or the good, better, best approach is give yourself credit where credit is due. What are three things I did well? Okay. And that's going to help build confidence. Number two would be, you know, what are a couple things I could have done better? So you start looking at some lessons learned. And then number one is, you know, okay, how am I going to make those changes maybe this week so that next time I've better at what I do than I was today. So you're always making, you're making improvement a habit, which I think is really cool. And it, and it fits with kaizen, the whole process. The Japanese term for continuous improvement.

Yeah, I love it. So what did I do? Well, three things. What can I improve? And then what specifically am I going to do to just get 1% marginally better in my next performance?

Absolutely. So you just keep moving forward instead of getting stuck.

Yeah, this is good. I want to take a little tangent. Just was thinking about parents coaching kids. Not coaching, but parents, you know, of kids who are playing sports. What's your top piece of wisdom in that domain?

You know, there are three things I tell parents over and over and over again. Number one is before the game, no advice. And when you really think about it, if someone's giving you a lot of advice before you do something that's not good for your confidence, because, you know, they're basically saying, I don't think you can do this, you know, and so I need to remind you of 10, 12 different things. So no advice. So it's a bitter pill sometimes for parents to swallow, but I ask them, do you want me to be nice or helpful? And they say, I want you to be helpful. So I'll say, okay, you need to be helpful to your kids by not trying to help them. Because the only thing you could do before a contest or a game or whatever is hurt them is interfere with what they have. And so number one, no advice during the game. Enjoy it. You know, sit back, enjoy the sport, you know, the competition, enjoy the performance. You know, let your kid do the work out there. You know, sit back and enjoy it. They're either going to win or learn. So, you know, there's nothing really to worry about. And then after the Performance, this is a big one, is no evaluation. It's just, hey, that was so much fun watching you perform or watching you play. You know, let's go get something to eat. And I think a lot of times kids feel like, right when I get in that car, I'm going to hear all the things I could have done better or that I didn't do really well. And so they dread that moment, that car ride home. And that can't not hurt them while they're playing, because in the back of their mind, they know that that's going to happen. And so on the front end and the back end, you take all that pressure away from your kid and just go, let them go out there and free it up and have a lot of fun.

That's awesome. And then at what stage or at any stage would you recommend that? What we just talked about, that good, better, best?

You know, I think later that night, maybe after dinner or that next day, you know, what adjustments do I need to make? And you go through that process, and then that helps you to turn the page so that you can move on to the next thing.

Love it. So our next thing. Sustained obsession. You had a great quote. I think it was the Olympic rowers who actually rode on Lake Casitas in 1984. Talk to us about that. I love that phrase.

Well, you know, you have to be. It's. There's a paradox in sports where on the one hand, you have to be an obsessive compulsive maniac to get really good at anything. And, you know, but when it's time to perform, you have to be almost this Zen, like, hippie surfer dude that just goes out there and frees it up and, you know, lets it rip. But the sustained obsession is really powerful because, you know, I also talk about the three E's, so the after. You know, it's easy to be excited about what we're doing for the short term, but, you know, when things get tough, we hit a plateau. We hit some rough patches. It's really easy to either start just enduring. You know, our heart's not really in it anymore. We're just kind of showing up and going through the motions, or we just start evading. Just get me out of here. I don't want to be here. That's not going to get you to where you want to be. So the 30 is engagement. You know, you're just. You're putting your heart, your head and your heart into what you're doing to the max. And so all Olympians, you Know, when you think about it, four years is a long time to train for your big day. And so you have to find a way to love what you're doing and be passionate about your purpose.

So let's pull that thread. How do we go about doing that?

Well, you know, number one is know what you want, so that's your purpose. You know, be crystal clear and identify exactly what you want. And then in terms of that passion, that fuel, find motivation wherever you can get it. I think, number one, it's gotta come from internal sources in terms of I love my sport and I love to compete. You know, that should be primary, otherwise, why are you doing it? But we could also find motivation, inspiration from other sources. It could be modeling our favorite performers. It could be, you know, good support system. It could be trying to prove other people wrong. And so, you know, if someone's talking bad about you and saying you can't do this or that, then, you know, almost encourage that. You know, like, hey, keep talking. That's just going to motivate me more.

How do you like pineapples?

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so it just becomes more of a fun challenge.

That's great. We obviously just scratched the surface of the champion's mind. But is there anything that comes to mind that we didn't talk about that you would love to chat about briefly?

You know, I do have a lot of fun Zen stories in there, and, you know, it's kind of a different way to reinforce some of the principles we're talking about. So if you like Zen stories and you haven't read the book, you might want to check out that chapter.

Awesome. Any particular favorite?

Oh, man. You know, I do like the one about the empty. Empty your cup. In terms of always have an open mind. In terms of learning from others. There's the famous story about guy goes to his end teacher and he's trying to tell the Zen teacher about all the stuff he knows. And the Zen teacher starts pouring a cup of tea for him and keeps pouring and pouring and pouring till it's overflowing. And the student's like, what are you doing? What are you doing? And he said, well, you know, they're, you know, the cup's too full. It's, you know, starting to overflow. Trying to remind them that, hey, that's kind of what you're doing. You're not letting anything new in there.

So being coachable, Being open.

Being coachable, having an open mind and knowing that you don't know it all. Yeah. So we're still always you know, I think it gets to always be a student. You know, you're always, always in the.

Process of learning, which goes back to Maslow. There's always that next level of growth and, you know, our potential as an asymptote as. I think it was Charles Duhigg who said that. No one Charles Duhe. Someone who's this gray line, you know, we're never going to reach that potential. Right. It's always just a bit out of our reach.

Yeah, we're. And when you think of it that way, we're all underachievers. It's just how close you get to, you know, to reaching your, you know, are you underachieving at 80% or 40%? But yeah, it's exploring what's possible. And I think that's what's really exciting is just what am I capable of doing? How far can I get? And that discovery process to me is that curiosity of how good can I get is a lot of fun to find out.

That's amazing. I forget. Who was that? An ice skater, a speed skater who said that they weren't even interested in the. Maybe it was a cyclist. One of the quotes I think was just amazing. It wasn't so much the gold as just they were genuinely curious to see just how great they could perform. Right.

Yeah. Chris Hoy, he's a six time Olympic gold medalist in cycling and you know, he just wanted to find out what was possible. That's what drove him and, you know, that's what should drive all of us too. Because when you really think about, we don't know what our potential is until after maybe our career is over and then we don't really know unless we gave it our best shot. So I think that's important.

Yeah, that's awesome. So let's shift gears. We'll go to the Champions Comeback. So the Champions Comeback subtitle how great athletes recover, reflect and reignite. As you said in the, in the intro to the book, it's kind of the baton hand. So that's all about it has a lot of topics actually, but the primary theme is dealing with setbacks and challenges versus threats. I loved that way you framed it. Can you talk to us about that?

Sure. You know, if you're going after great things in life, setbacks are going to find you. They're going to stare you in the face and they're going to try to beat you down. And so you either got to fall in love with those setbacks and, you know, turn them into great challenges to overcome or you're going to run, you know, and hide under the covers. And so if you're going for greatness, you got to actually love when things get tough. You got to love when adversity strikes. And you're either gonna, again, you're gonna, either, you're gonna grow from that experience. And so, you know, that relates to the principle in sports psychology of get comfortable being uncomfortable. When adversity strikes, we get really uncomfortable and then we want to avoid those situations. And the more you avoid, the more you avoid. So instead just jump in and go for it. Your self worth isn't on the line. You know, it's a great opportunity to either win or learn.

So inspiring. Last week I interviewed John Herdman, the head coach of the Canadian national women's soccer team that won bronze in London. And an hour afterwards I interviewed Anders Ericsson, expert performance. And John, it was amazing. His discussion on adversity, basically echoing your wisdom and saying, create adversity. That's how you deal with adversity. You know, and to your point of getting comfortable being uncomfortable, then of course, Anders Erickson whole point is you can't grow unless you're out of your comfort zone, which by definition is uncomfortable.

Yeah, yeah. Can't have your cake and eat it too. You know, like if you want to get better, you gotta, you gotta pay a price.

So how do we get comfortable with that?

Well, that's using the mental skills and strategies that, you know, that we talk about in sports psychology or in other, you know, areas of psychology. It could be taking a deep breath, it could be positive self talk, it could be maintaining good body language. Those little strategies can make a big difference in those moments.

And then again, not viewing the setback as a threat to your identity and your well being, but as a challenge to step up and rise. Right?

Yeah. And who doesn't love a great comeback story? We fall in love with great movies and great performers. You know, let's get inspired by our own comeback story. And so the, the, you know, the idea is what would be your greatest comeback story? And you know, how are you going to do that? And just think about how good that's going to feel when you make it happen.

Yeah, that's awesome. So, and again, we can look at any current challenges you might be having. If we're as I'm contemplating this, anyone listening to this, any current challenges you might be right in the middle, middle of or something that happened more recently that you might still be kind of dealing with the residue of, to look at that as Part of this hero's narrative, right? This hero story. Bigger the challenge, the better the comeback, the better the story, right?

Absolutely. You have to fall in love with the comeback more. You know, you love the comeback more than you hate the setback, I guess, is a way to put it. And then you start getting inspired about, you know, I think we can do this, you know, and. And then you surprise yourself. Look at, you know, in terms of the NBA Finals, LeBron James and the Cleveland Cavaliers down three games to one. LeBron used a lot of his meditation. He used a lot of his positive self talk. He imagined that they, you know, them still winning. You know, of course he's big and strong. You know, I'm sure he could probably guard an elephant if he needed to out there on the court. But it was his mindset that kept him composed. And they hung in there and they got the job done and they did something pretty amazing. And so, you know, we need to look at those stories for inspiration.

Yeah, no doubt. And it goes back to your three P's, right? I remember hearing a little snippet from him midway through of, you know, it's one next game. I'm going to stay present, I'm going to stay positive, I'm going to stay process oriented. I don't need to think about whether we're down 3:1 or up 3:1. I got another game. I gotta get prepared for that.

Yeah, he rocked the three P's pretty well, didn't he?

Yeah, no doubt. So good. Okay. I love this as well. Outperform your contract. One of my favorite ideas. Can you, can you share that story with us?

You know, I had a chance to meet J.J. watt when he was training for the NFL combine coming out of college, and what a great person, what a great attitude. Always trying to be the absolute best he can be in everything he does. And so, you know, his idea is, you know, whatever you pay me, and it's going to be an absurd amount of money, you know, in the NFL, one of the top defensive players in, you know, all of football. He's going to still try his absolute best to outperform his contract so that people look at him and say, man, that guy's getting, you know, that guy's underpaid. And, you know, what a great motivational approach that is, isn't it? You know, most of us like, I deserve more, I deserve that. And. And we start getting entitled and entitlement is a toxic emotion. And so he stays grateful for the opportunity and wants to show that he's Worth every penny. And so I think we could all take a page out of that book, too.

No doubt. The humility of that. And just, again, seeing that I can do even better, I'm going to go out and astonish day in and day out, right?

Yeah. You know, I would say confidence is equal parts arrogance or astonishment in the sense that when it's time to perform, I'm the best of the best. You know, I love my stuff more than their stuff. You know, I respect my competitors, but I focus on myself. That's the way to think, feel, and act on the field, off the field. That humbleness, that humility, that how can I get better today? What can I do to learn from my coaches and my teammates to be even better? And so the combination of those two is really great.

That's awesome. And that leads us to the next idea. I wanted to hear you riff on practice until you can't get it wrong.

Yeah. We want what we want when we want it, and we want that instant gratification. So we might be working on a different technique or in sport or a certain task in the workplace. And when we get it once, we almost feel like, okay, I did it. Move on. But champions realize that I can't just do it once. I got to be able to do it a million times and do it over and over and over again until I almost can't get it wrong. And that's when you become a true master at what you do. And so I think that's a good way to look at, you know, whatever I want to do, I'm going to do it so well and work on it so hard that I almost can't do it wrong. And then that gets back to our whole thing. When you have your off days, you can still get the job done.

Yeah, I love it. And when you have the off days, for me, it's been fun to notice. Today is not. I just. Just don't have the same inspiration and clarity that I like to have. And the old me would say, oh, well, you know, I guess I'm going to have to do something else today. And the new me looks at it and says, awesome. I'm going to practice performing at my best when I'm really not feeling my best and celebrate that. And then it becomes this fascinating spiraling.

Up, you know, oh, it's super cool. Yeah. Because usually we just throw in the towel and say, okay, you know, I'll really hit it hard tomorrow. And, you know, and then tomorrow becomes the next day and the next day and we never get there. And so there's only today. And so whether you're at 80% or 100%, give all of what you got, and you're not going to regret that. And when your head hits the pillow that night, you're going to have that peace of mind that I did my best today, and then you're going to sleep like a baby.

Yeah, I love it. So I'm curious, when you come in and working with the San Francisco Giants, what's your primary intention? What is it that when you think about what success would look like for you and how you would help these guys perform at their peak, what is it you're trying to kind of instill or install or however you want to frame it?

Sure. You know, the ultimate goal is to be in the greatest state of mind and mood day in and day out, and you know, that's the target. And so part of it's remove, helping to remove interference. You know, what, what are you thinking, feeling, doing what's going on off the field that might be getting in the way of you being your best self on the field. And then maybe what's going on on the field that we could work on that will help you to feel more confident, more focused, and have better composure. So it's, it's a lot of fun because at that level, you know, when you start getting into pro sports or, you know, anything at the, you know, top tip top of human performance, you know, it's not like they're afraid, you know, scared to death out there. It's just, you know, there might be a little doubt here or a little distraction there, but that could be the difference maker. So it's really just a lot of fine tuning the mental game.

Yeah, that's great. And then consistent consistency in every aspect of their lives. You can't turn it on on game day if you're, you know, floating around in a suboptimal state throughout the rest of your life. Right.

Yeah, you have to, you know, you want to win on and off the field, and what you do on the field sometimes bleeds to what goes on on the field and vice versa. So a lot of it is really, really getting good at your routines and having good mental and physical routines that help trigger that state of mind that you want and for you to play your best.

Yeah, it's awesome. Is there anything we haven't discussed that you want to chat about?

You know, I would say is we all need to put more fun in our Gatorade for whatever we do, because you know, I think that the closer we get to our goals, whether in a game, whether at work, you know, any type of situation, the more serious, uptight, nerdy we start getting. And that's how we get in our own way. And so it's really about going out there and just absolutely freeing it up and knowing that you could live with anything that happens out there. And so the more fun you have, the better you'll do. And the better you do, the more fun you have. But most of us look at it, you know, when I get the promotion or when I get the raise or when we win the championship, then I'm going to start having more fun at what I do. But you're never going to get there if you're not having the fun. So fun is a key idea. And when you really think about, my favorite question is what is at risk by going all out in a positive way and having as much fun as you can possibly have? There's no risk. So let's go for that.

I love it. And that might be. I like to wrap up these chats with the question of what's the one piece of advice or wisdom you would give to someone seeking to optimize their lives? That might be it. Is there anything that comes to mind in addition to that?

You know, I would say I, let's stick with that. You know, let's, let's you know what is at risk by going all out in a positive way in whatever you do. Enjoy and ask yourself, yeah, enjoy the process to the max and ask yourself that question every time you go do something. Right on.

Jim, I appreciate you and your wisdom and your all in approach to your own peak performance. And we had chatted in the, in the prelude to our chat about a potential third book. I'm pulling for it. But for now go have fun with the Giants and the Champions. Mind the Champions comeback. Find them both where you ever get books and then if people want to learn more about you and your work, what's the best place?

Sure. So my website is goldmetalmind.net and on Twitter it's gold medalmind@goldmetalmind. So follow me. I'll follow you and look forward to connecting with your listeners. But thank you so much for having me as a guest on your program. I had a lot of fun.

Right on. Well, I did too. This is one of my favorite chats and also just to promote. I don't spend any time on Twitter but for some reason some people connected us in some tweet and then I looked at your Twitter flow and they're just awesome. I mean, follow Jim for some great, great, great, inspiring quotes to fire you up on a consistent basis if Twitter's your thing. And yeah, I really had a great time. Thank you so much for taking the time.

Thanks Brian hi, this is Brian. I hope you enjoyed that interview. If so, I think you'll enjoy everything else we offer at BrianJohnson me. Two basic things one our free newsletter. It's called the Optimizer. Over 50,000 people start their day with it and they tell us it's pretty awesome. And 2 our optimal living Membership program. This is where I put all my best stuff. 10 bucks a month for a ton of wisdom. Two primary things in there philosopher's notes plus optimal living 101 classes. When you sign up, you'll get instant access to 250 philosopher's notes, which are basically six page PDFs and 20 minute MP3s where I capture my favorite big.

Ideas from great books.

The PNTV episodes are kind of a mini version of all that goodness. You'll also get instant access to all my Optimal Living classes. This is where I take all the ideas we cover in the Philosopher's Notes and boil it down to the most practical stuff you can apply today. Classes include Confidence 101, Getting Stuff Done 101, Relationships 101, Habits 101, etc. You'll also get access to what we call micro classes that I think you'll love. We aim to astonish and we're blessed to have thousands of members telling us we're helping them change their lives and that this is the best 10 bucks they invest in themselves every month. Go to BrianJohnson ME membership to learn more. Thanks for your support and have an awesome day.