Bitcoin’s ATH Is Just the Start - Ran Neuner On What Comes Next

We're now in price discovery. So you know, we've now broken the all time high. If bitcoin did correct now and go back to about 100,000, that wouldn't surprise me. And you can see that just off the golden cross there was a slight dump. We may get a slight dip, but generally we in a higher high now. So the pricing structure is very, very, very strong. Any thesis of sweeping the lows is now probably out the window. We've waited so long for this. Now we're here. Now we must just ride the wave and just enjoy. Took so much pain. Now we need to start to feel some gain.

Bitcoin has officially surpassed $110,000 for the first time in history. And it's crazy to think just three or four weeks ago we were hovering below the $80,000 mark. So we want to figure out where things are going for here, how bitcoin got to new all time highs. And I could think of no one better to talk about this than Rand Nooner. Of course you may know him from crypto banter on YouTube. He's a well known figure in the space and we're going to be picking his brain about bitcoin's price altcoins and where the market is heading for the rest of 2025. Ran, how's it going? First of all, congrats on 120 thou. 110,000 Bitcoin. I'm pretty sure that you probably thought that this was going to happen, but maybe not as soon as this.

Happy all time high day. Happy all time high day. Actually, to be honest, I have the receipts to prove it. If you go read our newsletter. We've been calling for the high on the 24th of May so we missed it by like two or three days. But we did call for a break in the all time high. Literally. If you follow our newsletter, for the last three weeks we've literally kept our conviction. We called it to the 24th of May and I, we got it two days early and now then I think the big question is what happens next? I've obviously got a couple of theories as to what happens next based on what we had. But yeah, I mean it's a, it's, it's great. It's nothing really unexpected actually. If you watch the videos that I made around when the tariffs, tariff fad was peaking, I said this is something that's going to last into May and, and I said if, you know, if it, if it doesn't end by May, it's going to end by August. But otherwise I said May is my, my first bet. So not really surprised. I think happy, I think we deserve it. We've been through quite a lot between waiting for the election results and between a massive and very, very hard dip in the last couple of months with lots of liquidations. Actually think that I think as, as, as crypto holders, if you've done, if you've held this long with conviction, well done. And now you're getting what you actually deserve.

What do you think two or three of the main drivers are for, for where we are now and bitcoin getting to a new all time high? I mean there's lots of different things here, right? I mean the lessening of, of the tariffs or you know, this cooldown on the tariffs, a de escalation between Russia and Ukraine has been cited as another big factor. And then of course US CPI data and the lowering of interest rates.

I think it's got nothing to do with any of those actually funny enough and it's the opposite of all of those. So I don't think it's because rates are going to drop. In fact, if anything I want to show you something. So I want to show you two charts if you don't mind. Let me just share my screen over here. So the reason why we think Bitcoin is going up now is if you look at that chart over here. So let me quickly open a few charts for you. So this is the US go to the 30 year treasury yield. This is the treasury yield in the U.S. treasury treasuries. What you can see is that this treasury yield is, is, is on, is going pretty much parabolic like you can see it's going pretty parabolic over here. What that means is that right now no one wants U.S. treasuries, right? It, what it means is that the rates on US Treasuries are going up a hell of a lot. And take you back to the weekly and I'm going to zoom out just so you can see that since 2007 we haven't had rates that are this high on the 30 year table. Then I take you to another T Bill. Let's go to JPY 40 year or JP 40 year.

There we go.

So this is the yield on the Japanese government bond. And I mean that's an even scarier chart. Look at that, look at that chart over here. It's currently.

That's crazy.

It's at parabolic level. So what does this actually mean? Let's just break it down for people who don't really know what this means. This represents the demand for government bonds. Government bonds are the way, the mechanism which governments use to raise money and how governments used to take debt. And what you can see now is that the rates are spiking. What that means is that nobody wants to buy US Government debt and Japanese government debt. And the reason why they don't want to buy it is because they believe that the US Credit system is not sustainable and that the Japanese credit system are not sustainable. The real kickoff was when Moody's downgraded the United States last week. And by downgrading the United States, they highlighted the problem that probably the United States is never going to be able to pay the $37 trillion of debt. And then you look at Japan and they're saying, well, we also don't think that Japan's going to be able to pay its debt. And so now there's a problem in credit markets. Credit markets are actually imploding right now as we speak. And people are saying, we don't want to be in debt in, in credit. And the reason why we don't want to be in credit is because we just don't believe that these countries will ever pay back the debts. If you're holding this debt at the moment, people are saying, we don't want to hold it anymore. It's too risky, it's too dangerous. And so what's happening? And it happened in Japan and happened in the U.S. in Japan, they had two auctions for two days. Nobody bought the bonds, so they kept increasing the price. Nobody bought the bonds in the U.S. very similarly, they had an auction last night. Nobody wanted the bonds, and so they had to spike up the bond rates to actually get people to buy them. And so when people see a collapse in the credit system, it means that they exiting the credit markets. Now the question is, if you're going to exit the credit markets, where do you go? Because now there's a whole lot of money. Where do you go? You can't stay in, in hard currency because generally when the, the yields drop, it means that there's less demand for that debt. If there's less demand for that debt, it means there's less demand for that currency. And so generally the currency is also depreciating. So you can see that the Dixie is taking a little bit of a hit over there. And so the question is, if, if the credit markets are collapsing and people need to get their money out of the credit markets, and the credit markets are the biggest markets in the whole world, where do they Go. So one option is they can go into risk, but they probably not going to go into risk if they think the financial system is going to be collapsing and the banks are probably insolvent and stuff like that. And so the next place that you say, okay, well, where else do you go so you can go to gold? As you can see, gold's having a.

Hell of a run.

I mean, I haven't looked at the gold price today, but you can see that in general, gold is having a hell of a run. It's up in the last three days. It's up from 31 to 23 3. Which in gold terms actually is quite a big massive.

Yeah.

And then they're going to other scarce assets. Because when currencies collapse, what you want to be in is you want to be in scarce assets. So both you and I from South Africa and we both experienced the Zimbabwe collapse a couple of years ago. And the interesting thing about the Zimbabwe collapse is that when I spoke to my friends afterwards in Zimbabwe and the South African Rand was collapsing, they said to me, buy property. And I said, why should I buy property? And they said, because everybody needs a place to live and there's not many places to live and no matter what happens to the currency, people will always pay the real value of a place to live. And so effectively what you want to be, and I think the message is pretty clear, what you want to be in is you want to be in scarce assets. And when it comes to scarce assets, you want to be in gold, you want to be in property, and you actually want to be in Bitcoin. And maybe, maybe, maybe you want to be in other crypto scarce assets. Like maybe, maybe you could say Ethereum is scarce and maybe you could say Solana scarce. But that's really what's driving this. So I don't think it's about interest rates coming down because I don't think interest rates can come down if the bond rates are this high. I don't think it's about inflation and I don't think that it's the Russia Ukraine war. I think what's causing this is a major collapse in the world credit system which was sparked or, which was, which was. It was like a house of cards and one of the cards was flicked out when the US got downgraded. And then, and that's, and that's how we landed up where we landed up today at all time highs. On top of that. I also think there's, there's other factors. Like there is all the things that have been happening in the United States. So like the stablecoin bill and the strategic reserve bills that have been going through, I just think that those were all suppressed by the tariff talks. And now you've almost unleashed the beast where all those things that were like bottled in have actually now been unbottled. And that's what's pushing up the price of bitcoin.

Look, when it, when it comes to all these different vehicles that are now being launched, you know, these bitcoin treasury companies, these different offerings, Microstrate, you know, led this playbook for three years already. Three or four years already. Is that an, a good alternative option? And are you surprised that these sort of vehicles are being launched now when a lot of people are sitting up and taking notice of all the things you've just said now and the real fragility of the mainstream financial industrial complex as we could call it?

So I'm going to show you one chart. This is a stock in Japan. It's called Meta Planet. Meta Planet is the micro strategy equivalent of of in Japan. As the current, as the credit market started to collapse in Japan, look where people ran, people ran to Meta Planet, okay? Ask yourself why, why is there such a good correlation between Meta Planet and the credit swaps? It's very simple. If you're a fixed income fund and you've got hundreds of millions, billions and maybe even trillions of dollars under management.

And.

The sis, the credit system is collapsing. But now remember, you are a credit manager. Your mandate, your, your, your mandate says you have to be in credit because that's what the investors gave you, right? There's only one stock that, that I know of that bypasses this. And maybe I'm a little bit ignorant because I'm only in crypto, but what Meta Planet have done is they've created a workaround. Basically what the workaround says. Invest in fixed income, you don't get interest, but you actually get bitcoin returns, right? So it's not a coincidence that this has happened because effectively the credit managers are running away from credit. They've got all this money and they're going, well, we're not allowed to invest it in stocks, we're not allowed to invest it in gold because our mandate says we're only allowed to invest it in fixed income securities. Is there any kind of, of exotic fixed income security? Oh, hold on. Yeah, there is one. It's called MicroStrategy. And what it does is it creates fixed income that actually pays zero interest but gives you bitcoin related Returns. It's like a cheat on the system. Not a cheat because it's completely legal. But that is, that is why what's happening? So I love these companies. I love the fact that they exist and I love the fact that there's multiple of these companies that exist, right? Why? Because if there was one and it was worrying me that there was one big company and it was MicroStrategy and they'd land up with 5 or 10% of the Bitcoin supply, that for me would be a negative, not a positive, because the decision to sell would come from one board, right? Like it's one board that would eventually decide to sell. When there's 10 or 15 or 20 of these companies, then, okay, one sells, that's not a problem. The other, the other 10, 15, 20 will end up buying it. So I think that this is great. I think the more of these companies, the better, providing that they're all real companies, you know, and really don't want to sell and are really building good strategies. And right now, I think if you look at this one, if you look at 21, which is Jack Mallow, it's SoftBank, it is Howard Latnick actually, ironically, ironically behind it too. I think that that's, that's a very worthy competitor in, in. In this. And I just want to say, I use the word competitor and I just want to like, highlight a little bit about the word competitor. This is the only industry that I know where your competitor is actually your best friend because the more your competitors buying, the higher your balance sheet's going. Like, you understand how, like, I don't know a case in history where 1, 1, 1 where 2 companies have been competing, but the better the one did automatically the better the other did. Like, yeah, like, the more, the more bitcoin meta planet and, and, and the other guys buy, the higher the price of bitcoin, therefore, the higher the price of, of, of. Of. Of these companies. And so it's like, it's. Honestly, it's like it's what a time to be alive to actually watch these things actually playing out. Which, like, I could have probably never imagined that these things could actually ever happen. And now, like, they're playing out in front of eyes and you're like watching this and you're going to wow. This industry that we're in, the people are so smart. Like, they are just so smart. And it's like it's such a privilege to be in an industry where, where people around you are so smart. I reckon we're probably one of the smartest industries in the world. And every morning we wake up, we get a dopamine shot. It's like, it's almost like cheating, bro. It's almost cheating, bro. Like we're cheating in terms of the.

Next 30 days, three months, six months. I don't know if you want to do a quick little bit of TA and give us some, some price or some fair predictions that you think might happen.

Yeah. So look, generally my thesis is that the price is going up. I don't really trade short term. I don't really care about the short term. Like, I've been holding my bitcoin forever and ever and ever. And so like to me, like, you know, whether it's going to go to 114 or 115 tomorrow or the next day doesn't really matter. I think just a couple of things that we need to note. We're now in price discovery, so, you know, we've now broken the all time high. You know, when it comes to price discovery, there's very little, there's very few ways to decide how high this thing can actually go. One of the things you can look at is you can look at how high it moved from the last wedge to the next wedge, right? So you look at this wedge over here, which I'll quickly just draw a line just so that you can see it. So there was like there was, man, hold on a second. Let me try and get us a line here. So you got, you had that, you had that breakout over there and you can kind of see how high we went from that breakout. We went from, from about 65 and we went all the way up to 108 or whatever it was, right? And that was like, that was that move over there. Now there's no reason why this move should be less. I mean, if you look at the wedge, the wedge is much steeper here. And that usually means that you're going to land up going a lot higher. There's also nothing in the way. There's no technical levels in the way. There's not like no one can tell you there's a resistance and there's a support. We've never been here before. We're in hot air territory and we land up. Usually we can land up going high. So there is one little, little, little like if you want to call it a hurdle in the way. Let's talk about the smallest last. This is not even really like a technical hurdle. If you plot a trend line. As you can see, I've plotted A trend line over here from 2017. If you plot a trend line up in terms of. If you. If you take this high from 2017 and then you mark it up to top of the 2021 highs, and you go up to where we are now and you carry on in that trend line, there could be a little bit of resistance at 114, 115,000. And that is for the people that don't believe that this was a clean break of price discovery, which I think it pretty much was. And so once we get above this level over here, then there is no technical analyst in the world who can tell you where we're going, because it's just. And it's completely, completely, completely unprecedented, if you ask me. 140, 150 on the next move. Not unrealistic at all. And again, it all depends on a lot of macro factors. But for now, I think my general thesis is up. We could have one little dip. I'll show you where that one little dip could come from. Let me just give us a. Let me just quickly draw a golden cross for us. Okay, so this is the plot of the moving averages. The 50 and the 200 moving average. When they cross each other on the way down, like here, then you. When the 50 crosses the 200 on the way down, it's known as the death cross. And when it crosses on the way up, it's called as the Golden Cross. Generally, the death cross, as you can see, usually means down, and the Golden Cross usually means up. Generally, there's a lot of exceptions in this paradigm. But if you analyze golden crosses a little bit closer, what you can see is that there was a golden cross over here, and then you can see that there was a slight dip just after the golden cross. So there was a pump into the golden cross, and then there was a slight dip just after the golden cross. Right. So you can see it. You can see it over there. Actually, on the way down, you can see exactly the same thing. So if you look on the way down, there was a. A death cross. And then just as the death cross happened, there was a pump into the death cross. You see that? So that's not unusual that as these crosses happen, you actually get a little bit of a dump. So I'll try, if. I'll try to find you another gold. Here we go. There's a good golden cross over here. And you can see that just off the golden cross, there was a slight dump. Can you see that on the chart? So we may get a slight dip just after the golden cross, it's not guaranteed. But the last couple of times like let me just give you an idea of here. In this, this here we had the golden cross and here we had, we pumped very high into the golden cross and then we corrected by 9 or 10%. So if Bitcoin did correct now and go back to about a hundred thousand that wouldn't surprise me. But generally we have broken the all time high. We're in a higher high now. So the pricing structure is very, very, very strong. Any thesis of sweeping the lows is now probably out the window in terms of a charting thesis. And so I've got to just you know like, like we've, we've waited so long for this. Now we're here now we must just ride the wave and just enjoy, enjoy the fruits of, of all the, the torture that we took and all the, like we took so much pain. Now we need to start to feel some gain.

I don't know how much you're watching altcoins these days or how exposed you are to a variety of different altcoins. If you are, what are you watching right now? How do you see the sort of the layer one battlefield between, you know, Ethereum, Solana, Sui, Aptos near Tron, I mean Cardano, Take your pick. Do you think they're all going to follow bitcoin to these new all time highs? And yeah, how do you see the altcoin market playing?

That was, that was, that was me this morning and I'm sure there was a lot of, a lot of our followers and a lot of our viewers and it says when Bitcoin hits 111 and then you remember you're holding alt. So I'll just play the video.

Okay, stay calm.

Yeah, that does, that was. Yes. Oh well done. Wait, I'm holding altcoins. Altcoins haven't moved that much. I do think they'll follow. I do think up until now this has been been a bitcoin only cycle. You can kind of see it when you look at the bitcoin dominance chart. We could just caught up a bitcoin dominance chart. But I want to show you something quite interesting in the bitcoin dominance chart. So this is the bitcoin dominance chart. What you can see is that we were on a clear upward trend all the way from December when the market actually, when the old, when the markets actually crashed. We went all the way up to, from 55 to 60, 66, call it just 65.4. Then we broke down and when we broke down we broke down below this trend line. Now a typical behavior on pricing when, when you break above or break below the trend line is what they call a retest. And if you were to pull out charting textbooks, what you'd realize is that what you had here was a breakdown below the trend line. And now we've had almost like a perfect retest. Right. If you were wanted to make this retest a little bit more perfect and you add the thesis that I gave you earlier that there might be a little correction in going into the golden cross. So you might, you might get something, something that looks like that, tap that and then bang. Right? So that could happen. But generally right now I've got to, I've got to be of the thesis that alts are going to follow. Why? Because the charts are telling me that the alts are going to follow. Another good chart to look at to see if the alts are going to follow is to look at the EBTC chart. That's a very good chart to be looking at. So you've had a clear breakout of a long downtrend. I mean just look at how long this downtrend is. In fact, you can probably say this DownTrend is from 12th December 2021. You've had this breakout, this breakdown and we've just broken up above this trend line. Right? So, so this is a massive, massive, massive reversal. And so, yeah, I mean when you look at, when you put those two charts, I've got to be a little bit more bullish on the alts than I am on bitcoin. But you know, that said, I've also been quite wrong about like anyone who's been in altcoins, we've all been wrong about the cycle. Because like, you know, what I said is when I woke up this morning and I, and I'll actually show you this again. So I woke up this morning and I, I was like, I followed that pattern that I showed you of that football coach. And then I, I tweeted this, I said if you were in bitcoin, your portfolio would be an all time high today. Congrats. Knowing that probably no one was just 100% in Bitcoin.

There'S not many, only the bitcoin maxis, let's be honest. Exactly. Yeah. Just following up on that. When it, when it comes to all these layer ones, do you still focus a lot on the actual, the, the fundamentals and the value propositions of, of all these different protocols or are you really kind of focused on, you know, technical Analysis and, and all the trade fundamentals.

I'm very much on fundamentals. I don't, I'm a multi cycle investor. I don't really spend a lot of time timing markets because I don't have the time. I know how to, as you've seen, I can work my way around charts and I do use charts just for fun. But when I, when I look at an investment, I basically have a blockchain thesis. So let's just separate Bitcoin and others. You have Bitcoin, which is a store of value. Then you have the smart contract layers which are effectively Ethereum, Solana base, maybe Sui and maybe Sonic and a couple of others. If blockchain is about the creation of digital value and the ability to move digital value from one sector to another, then my investment thesis pretty much says you have to be invested in the value layer, which is the Ethereum, Solana, Sui, whatever. And then you have to be invested in the layers that allow for the trade in these assets. Right? Because if you create value effectively you're going to want to trade value, otherwise the value is worthless. So that would mean that you've got to be invested in the base layers and you've got to be invested in the Dexes. What's the dex is hyper liquid. I, I don't have to name them. You, you pretty much know what they are. So with that in mind, like what I usually do is 90% of my portfolio is in layer ones and trading platforms. What are the trading platforms? Dexes, perpetuals Dexes, stuff like that. And then 10% is in the actual value that's created. And I know that generally that 10% pretty much like there can be a thousand projects, right? And they're all going to land up all trading on a layer one and all their tokens are going to get traded. So I'm going to capture most of value around the layer one, the Dexes. Now whether the project or not it's going to succeed, 99.9999% of those projects ain't going to succeed. And that's why I try not to hold a lot of individual projects. Very, very, very rare that I actually hold a project. I'd rather hold the bricks and mortar infrastructure that actually trades the value that has actually been created. And so in the cycle I actually don't do as well as my peers. So I don't do as well as the guys that are trading meme coins and they make 100% and 200%. But with my investment strategy it's not that important when you leave the casino right now, if you traded Meme coins in the last cycle, you may have been very rich, but if you didn't leave the casino exactly at the right time, then you actually lost every single one of the gains that you actually landed up making. Right. I want to show it to you quickly in two charts because I think that that's, that just. It kind of like shows you. It'll give you like an idea of, of, of, of, of why I see the world the way I see the world. So if I call up a chart of, for example, a Meme coin, Fog was a very, very, very good Meme coin. That's the chart of Fog. Okay. So I just want to show you.

Looking good.

I want to show you like a lot of people actually made like a ton of money. If they got in over here, they made 700% all the way up right now. But if you didn't exit the casino exactly, exactly, exactly at the right time, then you have given back 97% of your gains and you're actually lower than where you actually started. Right. However, the place where all these Meme Coins were actually getting traded was a place called Radium. Right. That was like the biggest exchange on Solana, the biggest decks in Solana. Now it's a slightly different chart, right. So you can see that if you look at the. I'm going to go to this level over here and you're going to say, okay, cool. Radium went up to $850. It's trading at $3. It's trading at. At around $360. So it's only down 50%. I prefer to be here and hold on to my money. And the thing is that now I don't really care whether the next cycle is a Meme Coin cycle, an AI agent cycle, an Internet capital market cycle, or an info info cycle. I don't care. The next thing is because I know regardless, all the tokens are going to be traded on Radium. And so I just hold Radium and I watch all these things for fun. And sometimes I put a little bit of money into them just, just to play around. But I know I'm. My assumption is with that money, that I'm definitely going to lose it.

Yep. Look, you played around a bit in Meme Coins and you, you know, you had a lot of critics when, when you guys launched the Meme Coin and it got sniped. As someone who really understands what Bitcoin is, I. I still just wonder why. So many KOLs and influencers and guys with big followings go into these things when they know that, like, Bitcoin is, is hard money, it's sound money, it's a great store of value. And a lot of these other things are just gambling. Why Ran? Why would you even tell you?

I'll tell you why. And I think, I think I've got a very good, a very good argument about this, right? Today it's a Meme Coin, today it's tomorrow it's something completely different. But if you cut it at the level of the Meme coin, then you've ruined innovation. So I'm going to give you a couple of examples just so that you understand it. When CryptoKitties was launched on Ethereum, do you remember, you were around, I was around. You remember how angry Everybody got about CryptoKitties being launched? Ethereum, it's the launch of the financial system and you guys are running it. You're trading cats and cats that are breeding on the Ethereum ecosystem. Now, we could have cut it there, right? But we didn't. We let it ride. And by virtue of the fact that we let it ride, we developed multiple token standards. The first thing is we developed the NFTs. Now, the NFT in my mind, is still going to be the platform for every single type of identity document, deed, whatever, right? Movie ticket, et cetera, et cetera. And on top of that, we also created another token standard, which is called ERC404, I think it's called. And basically what that does is it allows for multiple token holders to buy the tokens. And when you get a certain number of tokens, that token turns into an nft, okay? And now we could have cut it. We could have cut it at CryptoKitties, but we didn't. We experimented and we let it run and we let it run more, and we let it run more, and we ended up developing a very good technology. And I give it. Let's talk about Meme Coins. We learned that Meme Coins was a way to create value out of attention, okay? Now, we could have cut it there, but we didn't. And then we launched Pump Fun because Pump Fun was amazing, right? So, I mean, I could just give you example. When we launched our Meme Coin, Pump Fun didn't exist. But because so many people were launching Meme Coins and so many were getting sniped, they launched this thing called the bonding curve, right? That same bonding curve is now being used in Internet capital markets, which is with things like believe, right? And Only if the founder can raise a certain amount of capital, then the founder actually gets the capital to be able to use it in the development of the product. So I mean, you can criticize people because maybe V1 wasn't amazing, you could criticize the developers of cryptokitties that V1 was, it was a piece of shit. But if we didn't go through V1 and we didn't get sniped 800 times and people didn't lose money and reputation as a result of being sniped, we would never have developed the anti sniping technologies. Right? And if we don't develop the anti sniping technologies, then there's no way that the traditional financial system is ever going to move on to chain because they know they can get sniped. Right? And so don't kill innovation just because a certain version of a product is not, is not a finished product. You have to let experiments run. You have to let experiments run. You know, I remember when ETH launched the bitcoin Maxis all said, why are you launching eth? Like, why do you need eth? Well, if we didn't have Eth, we didn't wouldn't have Solana. And if we didn't have Solana, we pretty much wouldn't have smart contracts. Yes, I know the Bitcoin Maxis tell us that you can somehow, some, through some miracle you can do a smart contract on Bitcoin, you know, but you can't, like, no one can practically use those smart contracts on bitcoin. So I think there's two schools of thought. You either here for the store of value and the bitcoin thesis or you're here for the experimentation and the growth of the, of a new kind of industry. If it was up to the bitcoin Maxis, then innovation in blockchain would have stopped 10 years ago. But because it's not, we have an amazing industry where we are breaking new barriers every single day. And so yeah, I don't regret any, I don't regret any of the decisions. I mean, I think, I think it was, was, it was amazing.

My only counter argument to that is that there's still so much grift and so much money just being made of retail and unsuspecting investors. And, and that for me is, is the biggest problem. Like I've met you have as well, we've met Tony and other people. You know, like, I'm sure he didn't want Solana to just be the home of meme coins, you know, like the crypto gambling capital. Like he wanted it to be something different.

Hold on, who cares? Like, if people are creating and selling, creating and trading digital value, you shouldn't care what the value actually is. You know, like, let me give you an example, right? When they created the Internet, right? I don't think that they thought that porn and gambling would be what people actually use the Internet for, right? And today those are the biggest industries on, on the Internet, right? Like, okay, yeah, the question is whether the creators of the Internet would have been proud or not proud. I don't really care whether they're proud or not proud. I'm just glad that I've got porn and gambling on the Internet, you know, like, don't. When you create a technology. When Vitalik created Ethereum, I don't think he ever thought that Ethereum would ever be used to trade pretty pictures of cats. And it was okay. Now who cares? No one cares. It's just another use case. You know, luckily for Toli, just because he has meme Coins doesn't prevent him from having the future of finance, Internet capital markets. AI agents, you can have everything on the Internet. And so if some people want porn and some people want gambling, and some people want this form of gambling which is actually masked in this beautiful rapper which they call meme Coins, give the people, that's okay. I don't really care what they listen. As someone who holds tokens in salana and radium, bro, I don't really care what people want, just give it to them.

Fair enough, fair, fair enough. And I mean, I've spoken to Yatsu so many times and this is literally the anecdote, anecdote he gives. He's like, what really helped the Internet explode? Porn. It is what it is. And like, whether or not you like it, it is just the truth of the matter. Just the final question, obviously we're halfway through 2025. If we were to chat in six months time or a year's time, where do you think we're going to be in this market? I don't really know where bitcoin goes from here other than up. Yeah, I mean, that was going to be my question.

200 plus. I don't know what it. I don't, I don't whether it's 240 or 250. I don't know, bro. I've been here, I've been here since $500. I think it's going to be a $200,000 plus. Really, like, you know, I could say 240 250. I don't know and no one knows. And if you make a prediction to a date, I can tell you it's going to go up and it's going to keep going up and to the right for the foreseeable future. I think it'll get to 140 quite soon, maybe even the next couple of weeks. And then I think it go from there. I think it goes to 250 very, very, very quickly. So, yeah, that's, that's really my thesis.

Amazing. Ran, thanks so much for your time. We look forward to crossing paths again. You're about as busy as I am and traveling as much as I am, so I'm sure we'll cross paths at the next big conference in the next few months time.