Forget Michael Saylor — 1800% Gains with THIS Bitcoin Stock

You have to be lucky in a certain form to go from 2 million to 4 billion in 13 months.

It's crazy.

Approximately every 90 days we're doubling our bitcoin per share. We've hit sort of this velocity that I think we're going to continue to compound and we have no plan to stop.

Hi everyone, Gareth Jenkinson here live at Bitcoin 2025. We are chatting to Dylan LeClaire from Made a Planet. Today we're going to be talking about their bitcoin treasury reserve strategy, how they've made Meta Planet one of the most valuable companies in Japan and what the future looks like for bitcoin corporate treasuries. Having a publicly traded stock that allows people to buy Meta Planet shares and have some exposure to Bitcoin is essentially the value proposition. You can probably explain it a bit better than that. But why is this product so successful in Japan and why is it one of the most successful stocks in the last year just in terms of price appreciation?

I'm at a public company, we're on a bitcoin standard, we're securitizing the asset class. But I still have that ethos in me, the cypherpunk bitcoin maximalist. Everybody should hold cold storage Bitcoin, right? There's no substitute for that. No stock in the world that can substitute for the sovereignty of bitcoin. With that said, there's huge pools of capital in the world that can own bitcoin on a hardware wallet, right? So there's 100 trillion of global equities, there's hundreds of trillions of global fixed income. All these huge pools of capital with mandates on what they can own Japanese small cap stocks or US listed large cap. So all these pools of capital want exposure to the asset. They can't get it. So for us in Japan, we saw a really unique scenario situation where because of Mount Gox, which blew up 10 year, 20, 15 years ago in Japan, right? There was sort of, despite Japan's very high tech developed nation, very prosperous, there was sort of like a freeze or a halt in the bitcoin or crypto interest or development, right? Like culturally, socially, politically. And so, you know, bitcoin is taxed as ordinary income, whereas other securities are 20%. So do you make a lot of money in Japan? You get, you buy or sell bitcoin, you pay 55% which is a lot. And so we said, you know, there's a really big market for bitcoin and in, you know, equity security wrapper that can be accessible in retirement accounts or tax advantaged accounts, taxable accounts, and it's also marginal. Right. So everybody in Japan, or a lot, you know, a lot of people have a brokerage account, crypto accounts less frequent, and you can borrow against your securities portfolio in Japan for 50 basis points, 0.5% because of the interest rate environment. So all of these things kind of together in total presented a really interesting opportunity. And so we put out a sort of a manifesto on the Tokyo Stock Exchange in May of 2024 and said, look, this is a bitcoin play. We're not crypto, if not digital assets, we're going all in. We're going to sell our equity, our debt, our chairs, everything to buy more bitcoin and we're going to not stop. A lot of people said, these guys are crazy. But there was a certain, you know, the bitcoin base in Japan was super excited because there was nothing like that for them. In the US we've had strategy, the miners, gbtc. In Japan, there's nothing. There's no bitcoin proxies before meta playment. You have to be lucky in a certain form to go from 2 million to 4 billion in 13 months.

It's crazy.

And so, yeah, I think now we're sort of. We're accelerating. We've hit sort of this velocity that I think we're going to continue to compound and we have no plan to stop.

Yeah, I mean, you guys have done amazingly well. And like you say, if the market cap is like 4 billion for the shares, it's crazy. The amount of ground, when you look at the chart, there's nothing that compares to Mata Planet. My next question is really about the amount of corporate bitcoin, corporate treasury companies that exist now. You've got strategy, which, I mean, let's be honest, Saylor's so far ahead of everyone, no one's going to have as much bitcoin as strategy do. They nearly had 600,000 Bitcoin at the time of recording. We've got 21, we've got Nakamoto and a handful of other companies that have bitcoin on their balance sheet. When it comes to the competition between the companies and how you measure that, M Nav has been spoken about a lot as the real metric that matters. Can you explain that in layman's terms and why all these companies are measuring mnav? And, you know, bitcoin per share is like the main KPI for the performance.

Yeah. So I think the important thing to understand is that in the equity markets all global equities are trading on a, based on a forward expectation of discounted cash flows or forward expectation of the business prospects. Right. Just because of this is how equity markets work. They're discounting the future. And so for a Bitcoin treasury company or a company that says our sole goal is to maximize, maximize Bitcoin exposure for our shareholder base.

Right.

Approximately every 90 days we're doubling our bitcoin per share. And so when a company's trading at a multiple of its net asset value, equity dilution, which is traditionally bad.

Yes.

You don't want, you know, if you own 10% of Coca Cola and you're Warren Buffett and Coca Cola doubles its shares outstanding, you don't like it, you own less of the business.

Yeah.

But for microstrategy shareholders or Meta Plan shareholders, you want more Bitcoin. Right. So when, when there's a dilution event and then the proceeds are recycled back into the vtc, you own more BTC per share. Yes. And so the M NAV is just the ratio of your enterprise value to the net asset value. I think it's an important metric. But a lot of people are looking at static snapshocks. So they say strategies were mnav is 2x meta plans, m nav is 3 or 4 or whatever. I think that's important. But it's also, people need to, people need to factor in as an investor, know what is the velocity of, of the, you know, the turnover of the actual trading volume, but also of the, the execution of the treasury operations. Right. So you know, how much is your BTC yield or your Bitcoin per share increase year to date? And also, you know, what if your volume, you have your absolute volume, the trading volume, but what percent of that volume are you actually issuing? Equity capital? Right. So people look at the static snapshot and they say, okay, this company's worth this and this company's worth this, but two companies could be worth, have a 2xm nav each and one could grow 10 times faster if the relative turnover and the relative equity dilution of the treasury operations has a higher velocity, is spinning faster. Right. So I think, you know, there's sort of this new wave of know metrics and KPIs and investor tools and it's still being figured out.

This is a more philosophical question and you touched on it earlier. When it comes to corporate treasuries and even nation state adoption of Bitcoin, it's fantastic for Bitcoin advocacy and bringing more people on board. But at the same Time, it removes a lot of people just buying and holding and using bitcoin as a means of payment. How do you feel about that? Do you have some comms with the, the institutionalization of bitcoin? Ironically, this is what everyone wanted five years ago. Now we have it and everyone's like, hey, this is against the ethos of bitcoin. How do you feel about that?

You know, I don't think it's mutually exclusive. You can have Bitcoin beach in El Salvador using bitcoin as a medium of exchange. And you can have Michael Saylor building a treasury that he will never sell and never move. So Meta Planet is acting on behalf of, let's say, you know, 100,000 people and we're transacting on chain once a month or once a week. Right. And so you know that in a way is bitcoin scaling. Because to buy our bitcoin, we're conducting tens of thousands of transactions over a one day or one week span, right? And then we consolidate, send one bitcoin transaction. So there's hundreds of billions of dollars of notional bitcoin exposure that's not being, you know, reflected in an on chain transaction. I think that's fine. That's the natural scaling, right? I think if we're going to go to 8 billion people using bitcoin, not everybody is going to be transacting on chain every day. I mean, just the pure block, block space constraints. That's true, right? So, you know, for me, it was always inevitable. I was always that, okay, right now this is a cyberpunk club movement. In 20, 25 years from now, Wall street and all the corporations, like they're going to be going hand over fist. I think that's proving to be true. I think the next phase is, you know, you have the nation states of the world, specifically the non Western, non G7 nations, the El Salvadors of the world realize, okay, this is a lifeline and we need to act first. Right? The game theory is you act first. I think that both camps are right. It's not mutually exclusive and it's often portrayed as this or that. Right. And the reality is like bitcoin is for enemies. It's FU money. Right? And so if you don't like what NetPlanet's doing, then sorry, we're going to do it. But you can also do your thing.

Precisely.

And so I think that's the power of bitcoin. That's power of a permissionless network.

No one gets. Exactly. It's permissionless. No one Gets to choose. Right. I guess my last question is there's a lot of people that are throwing around questions about the risks of these Bitcoin corporate treasury companies. Again, in layman's terms, can you explain what could go wrong with the strategy or a Meter planet or a 21 or a nakamoto or a buying all this bitcoin, issuing debt or convertible bonds, those kind of things. What's the risks?

I don't think there's a systemic risk at all. I mean, the risk is by definition to the con of shareholders. Right. So a company's buying bitcoin, they're holding it. Obviously there's. And you just read through a 10k right? In the risk factors, there's a million things of custody or what happens if a fork or what happens if an asteroid comes and destroys the world? And you know, like everything that can go wrong is disclosed in those 10k. So just go read it. But I think, you know, on a, on a more realistic level, you know, the risk is obviously a company, you know, especially I think in the later stages of a raging bull market, we always see everybody, now everybody wants to take on leverage at the, you know, the timing with probably the least opportune, you know, a company that comes in late, that's trying to catch up, that's trying to stack, that does it with too much debt or debt that has a really high cost or using your Bitcoin as collateral. Right. So for us at Meta Planet, I could just speak for us. We have $70 of Bitcoin for every $1 of debt per. So Bitcoin can literally go down 99% and we have more Bitcoin than we do debt. They are 98.5%. So for us, we really have no leverage. So the risk is like you take on too much debt, there's a refinance risk, it comes due in a year. It's, you know, high interest rate. You don't have, you know, your m net premium goes from three to one and all of a sudden the dilution isn't accretive. And these are all realistic risks for companies. Right. But you know, I think for us, we want to remain very much delevered. I think we'll look at the fixed income, you know, instruments, the preferred equity, all that stuff. Especially, you know, kind of after a, you know, a downturn or maybe it's always tough to say, you know, when the next bear market is right until it actually comes.

Exactly.

But we want to, we want to stay very flexible until that time.

Dylan thanks so much for chatting to us today. We look forward to seeing how Meta Planet's bitcoin strategy goes from here on out, and I think you guys are really leading the pace. And having done a little bit of homework on what's going on in Japan and just how popular this approach is, I think it's only a matter of time until some other Japanese listed companies follow suit. So thanks so much for your time and we'll catch you soon. Indeed. Awesome.

Sam.