Breaking Barriers in Compostable Packaging: TIPA’s Sustainable Innovation

Hello and welcome to this episode of Conscious Design. I'm your host, Ian Peterman, and author of the Conscious Design book. And today I'm really excited to have Daphne Nissenbaum. She's the CEO of PIPA, where they're creating compostable packaging for the food and fashion industry. Welcome to the show.

Hi, thank you for having me. Pleasure to be here today.

Yeah, so kind of to jump back, I know a little bit about your origin story, but for people who don't know anything about your company, let's jump back to how did you get started and when was that? And let's kind of just start there and the journey forward.

All right. So actually it started like more than 10 years ago. I had a kind of a discussion with my children around the packages that they use every day. Uh, what do they do with them? What, how the package ends its life, et cetera, et cetera. What's the damage, what's the effect on the world? And I thought to myself that within a few years' time, we'll need a package that is not based on plastic because plastic just lasts forever. We don't know if it's 400, 500, or 600 years. It doesn't really matter. That's forever for us. And I thought, what would be, you know, what would be the right solution to pack food? And the first thing that came to my mind was an apple because when I ate an apple and I throw the residuals to the waste bin, it just disintegrates and biodegrades by itself. So when we think about it, nature also packed. Nature packed the oranges, the bananas, the nuts, et cetera, et cetera, the apples. And nature packs with compostable packaging. So the question was, why won't we? And that's how it all started. We developed a— the purpose was to develop a package that is on one hand fully compostable, on the other hand emulates conventional plastic. So we have to be as good as conventional plastic in order to replace plastic. So the target was to develop materials that are durable and strong and perform like conventional plastic, but are fully compostable. And that's what we did, and that's what we offer today.

And so I know this started almost 10 years ago, or about. How long did it take you from your conversation to, I actually have a material That does all the things that I want it to do?

I mean, the development, we had kind of progress in development and we saw the materials, et cetera, et cetera, were developed and there were a few steps in development. We actually launched the first demo product, I would say around 5 years after, after we started development. Yeah.

You've been on market for about 5 years as a product for at least 5 years then, right?

Right. Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah. That was the first generation. The first generation of products was launched around 2018. We developed— we recently launched the second generation. So the first generation was more about products that are for shorter shelf life, like fresh produce, bakery, et cetera, fashion, for example, and other products that are less sophisticated to pack. And the second generation offers barrier films, which actually prevents The film prevents oxygen and water vapor coming in and out from the package. It actually protects the product, the packed product, for a longer shelf life. And those are more laminate-based products. And that was recently, that was launched around the end of 2000, of last year and this year.

Yeah. Got it. And so I was actually just talking to someone else a week ago about packaging, and they were talking about breathability. as one of the main things. And I think that's what you're talking about, right? Is your first gen is, is, would be considered a more breathable packaging. It allows fresh fruit to not be sealed in and trap the moisture and get ruined. Whereas your second one is, it's able to actually be that barrier.

So that, you know, there are different types of foods and it's different to pack. Packing fresh produce is different from packing bread and it's, it's different from packing granola bars, for example, or snacks. So for fresh produce, we need more breathability in the package. Although the conventional plastic industry doesn't offer good breathability, so we actually can prolong shelf life for fresh produce with our products. And then the most important thing for more delicate products or for products that have longer shelf life, it's called barriers. It's a barrier to prevent water vapor to come in the package, in and out from the package. So, for example, with crisps, we have to prevent water vapor to enter the package. Otherwise, the product will be spoiled. So— Right.

You don't want soggy. Those are bad.

No. Right, right. So, that's the second generation and that's the holy grail, by the way. That's the holy grail of this industry. Because compostable materials have awful barriers and we developed unique barriers. And that's the holy grail of this industry, to offer a unique, very high barrier properties products.

I guess when you're talking about a barrier plastic, what plastic are you able to replace then? Is it like HDPE? Where are you able to compete and replace?

We replace polyethylene-like products. That's the first generation.

Okay.

Polyethylene. And the second, the second generation replaces laminates and high-barrier products, like for example, metallized films, metallized laminates.

Oh, okay. But it's like a clear backing and then you have the metallized layer on it.

Right, right.

Yeah, those are really hard. Those are impossible to recycle too. Once they're metalized, those cannot be recycled, period.

Cannot be recycled.

So you're, you're able to replace something that can't be even recycled with something that is backyard compostable, right? I know we talked briefly about this, but you also use bioinks and you're able to produce— and I looked at your products, right? They look great. They look— there's no visual degradation, right? There's a lot of old versions, right? People have been doing, trying to get to here a long time, and not all of them has looked really, really good. But you guys have actually been able to achieve matching the quality. It's not even quality. Yours would be a higher quality, but it's, it's the visual expectation that people would have for packaging.

Yeah. Yes, I agree with you. The visual, the processability, the customer experience. So it was very important for us as a company wants to make a massive change to be able to replace plastic and offer a product that offers the same experience as conventional plastic. So experience to the manufacturer, experience to the end user, experience to the co-packer, experience to the supermarkets. So it just replaced material one by one without really So it feels the same then.

I worked on some packaging before where we— I had a client that was like, oh, we want to do compostable packaging, and all we could get was this very crinkly semi-hard— it was flexible, but it did not feel or sound like packaging that you would be used to. So you've been able to recreate that? Yeah, we've been able to recreate that. replicate that feel as well then for the end customer? When you grab it, you're not gonna go, wow, this is weird, weird, weird feeling.

Yeah, it feels like, uh, like conventional plastic. It was actually the target of the, you know, of the first, when we started development, that was the first target to really look and feel like conventional plastic. That's one of our big, uh, innovative steps.

Yeah, that's a big thing. I was about 5 years ago, struggled to find something that was compostable and not crinkly. So that's a big leap forward.

Yeah.

Be able to do that and have that feel, 'cause from the customer standpoint, right, it's great to be eco-friendly, it's great to be sustainable, but we also have these ingrained expectations of, what quality feels like, what you're going to have that experience as. So being able to copy that and not create any potential adverse reactions to your product is, I think, really important, especially the brands you, you work with, or that I've seen on your website, they seem to very much care about their customers and how that experience is. So You know, their brand. If I'm running it, we're running a brand, I'd want it to not lose any of that, that quality that I had.

Right. Yeah, it's very important. It's the brand's face. It's the brand's reputation. It's, it's the marketing position. Yeah.

Hey, it's Ian here. So glad you're enjoying this episode of Conscious Design. If you want the full scoop on Conscious Design, what it is, how we do it, how you can do it, then check out our book. We wrote it so creative entrepreneurs like you can code social and environmental responsibility right into your brand's DNA. You can download the first chapter for free. Link is in the description. Enjoy the rest of the episode. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and share. To talk about manufacturing a little bit, you've said that— so you drop the material in, no new tooling, biodegradable inks. You're able to just go into production with it. And both version 1 and version 2, you can do this with, right? As both materials.

Right. It was very important for us also to provide materials that are easy to process with the same yields as conventional plastics, same machinery. same experience to the operators. This is what we offer today. And materials that are, you know, from each angle that you will look at it, it's similar to conventional plastic, but it's compostable.

Now, where do you guys sit in the market price-wise? Are you able to do all this and price compare? Like, how, how are you able to sit there? Okay. No, it's fair enough. You've managed to do a lot with your materials. So.

First of all, you know, conventional plastic, it's an ocean, ocean of materials. So there's so many and the offering is huge and it's a huge market. And new, new innovative materials are in a different scale than conventional plastic. Conventional plastic is very Very high scale. And this is only a beginning of the scale, the new materials, all the bioplastics, us as well. So obviously pricing is different, but the pricing difference derives from the cost of the raw materials. So we don't use conventional plastic at all, at all, at all in our solutions. We only use compostable materials. The price difference derives from the cost of the raw materials. The good news is, Then if compostable materials were very, very expensive like 10 years ago, it's still expensive, but not very, very expensive, right? So it's still expensive. So the package can be, you know, it varies from between 30 to 50% more to 2 times more or whatever. It depends, really depends on the package, depends on. But at the end of the day, the package is a minor part of the product. Very minor part. So, example, if we talk about granola bar, so if a granola bar costs, I don't know, let's say $2 and the package costs 10 cents, so now it costs 15 cents. That's the difference, or 20 cents. That's the difference. So it's more expensive, but it's definitely doable.

Right. Well, I guess, yeah, that's probably a huge, a huge benefit is your material is not the primary product, so it's not driving most of the cost. You're kind of this ancillary in a way, and packaging is always super important, but you're, you're not the primary cost driver for something.

Right.

That makes sense. That's a good place to be in to start a, start a material.

Still, it's not easy. Still, there are questions.

Oh no, no, no.

People pay more, but, um, they want to be green. They want to go sustainable, but it's definitely doable. There are companies who are serious about what they do. They're serious about what they're offering to their customers. They want to be loyal to the customers and they go all the way and offer products that are perfect for, for their consumers.

Now, talking about industries, I know that you're in fashion a little bit. You're mostly in food right now. That's where you started out focusing in. Has there been any other industries that are interested or that this material could be— that you're looking at? Or I know there's 2 big ones, so they probably keep you busy for a long time, but I'm just curious if As you know, you've been out for a few years. Where else has some interest come from?

So interest comes from all directions. We were approached, we get approached by so many industries, so many needs, so many people who want to understand what we sell and what can we offer to them. But as a company, we focus, we focus on the food industry. That's the main reason is that the food industry is the number one contributor to plastic waste. It's a huge industry, an industry that grows, an industry that uses a lot of plastic every day. Every product is packed. You know, we consume so many packages a day. And plus, it's very challenging to pack food. So we focus on the food industry. There are other industries that our products are suitable for, for example, like the fashion industry or the apparel industry. So we work with the apparel industry as well, but we're still focused on the food industry. As a company, we want to stay focused.

Yes.

And within this focus, the food industry is a huge industry. So there's so many segments, so many products, so many different types of needs in the market for products to be packed in compostable. So there's a lot of work for us to do. And so we focus on the food and we stay focused there. And as I said, there are other industries who buy products from us and they find the products suitable. That's great, like the fashion industry.

Looking at your material array, you had your Gen 1 and your Gen 2. Do you ever see going into trying to get into like injection molded plastics or things like that? Or is this better as, you know, a film? Is this really a film-based material?

It's just a film base. We do only flexibles, only flexibles that are based on films. We have a variety of films, we have a variety of laminates. Those are our products. The only thing that we do have is a zipper. We manufacture zippers, which are more— are not films, for our zipper bags.

You're able to make the zippered baggies, basically. And it's all— so then the part is your material as well, so it all just decomposes.

Yes.

That's awesome.

And it's also home compostable.

So, hey, maybe you want to do some Ziploc competitor. Those get used so much and are unfortunately not compostable. That's great. That's really good that you're able to do that. Now, looking forward, are you guys looking to expand at all? New materials? Is there growth? Or like you said, You know, is it really just focused time for you guys for a while and really just grow this food segment?

The food segment, it's a huge industry. We focus on the food industry. There's a lot to do there. It's a complex technology. It looks like maybe, you know, it's an easy technology. No, it's a complex technology and there's a lot of demand in this industry and we have challenges there. And I believe personally that this is the main industry that needs to offer compostable packages because of the type of the packed products and the type of the industry it is. So just imagine every product that we use is, I mean, in the majority of the cases, it's contaminated with food. So the packages need to be composted and that's the most natural way to consume food with compostable packaging. And the majority of the packages cannot be recycled. And those are the ones that we still focus— that we focus on, on the food industry.

And because your, your material is fully compostable, it's home compostable, it doesn't really matter if there's food on it. Nobody needs to worry about cleaning it.

Right, exactly.

That's amazing. I love that this product exists, that you guys are able to, able to do this. Before we wrap up, I want to make sure if there's anything else you want to mention, of course, and then where can people find you? And I think this is something primarily brands, right, would want to be able to, to find you. But I also would imagine manufacturers who are wanting to expand their material options. could pretty easily, because it works on their machines, just easily add it to their options.

Right, exactly. So we have teams on the ground in North America, in Europe, and in Australia. It's easy to find our people there through our website, probably, which is tipa-corp.com. Tipa-corp.com. And, you know, we'll be happy to work with anyone who wants to offer our solutions. We look forward into, you know, growing the markets, offering our products to more and more brands, and growing with us and changing the world to be a better place with us. I think that if we look, you know, a few years' time from now, we understand it. I think everybody understands that we cannot continue using plastic as we do today. The majority of the plastic cannot be recycled. We know the numbers. The numbers that the plastic that is recycled today is less than 10%, right? It's less than 9%. And I'm talking about all plastics, including bottles, including everything. So obviously we cannot continue to do what we do today, doing what we do today. So I think that every brand will go compostable and offer the products in compostable. We'll gain more market share, we'll gain more customers. good points or increase their reputation in the market because they won't use plastic, but use the right way to pack food or non-food. So, you know, I would encourage anyone to look at it and consider it and hopefully join the movement of change, of getting rid of conventional plastic.

Yes, we need more of that for sure. Really quick, as a new brand, if If they're looking to utilize your material and they maybe don't have a manufacturer, do you have a network of manufacturers that you— okay, so—

Yeah.

A new brand could come to you and go, hey, we want to use your material. We also need a manufacturer. We need help creating this, you know, whatever their custom packaging is. You can help make all the introductions and help them start in this direction.

It's easier for us to work with our manufacturer. They already use our materials, so it's pretty straightforward.

Got it. Perfect. So that's, so then, and you have that network, Australia, Europe, North America for now.

Yes.

I'm sure you'll expand some more at some point. Bring it to more continents.

Yes. Step by step.

Yeah, you can't take over the world all in one day. Gotta take a little bit of time before you get there.

Right. It's a lot anyway. Yeah.

Perfect. Well, I really appreciate your time. This has been really great. Love your products. Love that you have this barrier part. And that's, that's impressive. Something that I haven't seen yet. You guys are the only ones that I know of that are able to do barrier that's biodegradable, actually, you know, throw it in the dirt and Decompose it. So I know there's a journey. Great on you guys and be able to achieve that. And yeah, for everyone listening, there will be in the notes, there'll be links to everything. Please check them out. If you are a brand and sustainability is important to you in fashion or food especially, definitely reach out, connect with them, check out the links. And Again, thank you so much for being on the show. I really appreciate it.

So much. Yeah, thank you for, for, it was pleasure to be here. Pleasure talking to you. Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity.

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