Interview with Marte Cazarez of DESSERTO on the Way of the Cactus

Hello everyone, welcome to this episode of Conscious Design. I'm Ian Peterman, host of Conscious Design and author of the book Conscious Design, same title. And I'm excited to have Marte here. He's co-founder of Desserto, a company based in Mexico that is turning cactus into leather. And I'm I'm really excited about this because I actually researched you guys when I was writing the book on conscious design and referenced some of the stuff that you guys are doing. So it's great to have you on this, on this episode.

Thank you so much, Ian, for— thank you so much for the invitation. It is a pleasure to be here and talk about what is our passion, that is to do cactus material. So I'm happy to talk about our history. And see if you're interested to hear from us.

Yeah, so, so tell me a little bit about your story. How, how did you guys, uh, decide and figure out that you wanted to take cactus and you're able to turn it into something that, um, well, starts to replace leather?

Well, this history is not that short. It's a long story because when we met, I mean, my partner Adrian López Velarde and me and Marte, When we met in Taiwan, we were like very young. We were 19 years old when we met each other, and we were in Taiwan learning the language and studying in the university. So we were for different purposes, and one friend in common, they introduced us to each other in Taiwan. And then we figured out that we were born on the same day, same month, and same year. So since that day, That's amazing. That was amazing. We became very nice friends, and since that day, we perceived that we have a touch in common, like we have to do something because we were born in just like 25 minutes difference in our born. So it was crazy. We became very nice friends, and since that, we started doing different things in our lives. It was not just like, let's do that at the first idea. We both had different experiences. I was working, for example, in the fashion industry. I was working also in the aloe vera industry, and my partner was working in the automotive industry and in the furniture industry. So it was— so we were in different industries. But, but when we were thinking and talking about the industries, We saw that there are so many things in common, so that's why we start talking and see how we can do something together.

Oh, that's awesome! That is very rare when you meet somebody born that close to the same time. That's awesome. And so you said like there's a commonality between all of them, and I would, I would imagine has to do with the fabrics and materials, the textile side, which is where you guys got into creating a leather alternative. And tell us a little bit about the journey. You know, you— so you have this idea, you figured out this commonality. What led you to really be able to identify cactus as, as that material? And, and what was that? That journey to getting cactus to turn into a material we can use in the way that you're able to do it now?

Okay, so years after working in different industries in the fashion and in the automotive, so we got the experience in working with materials, for example, with animal leather and synthetics for doing bags, for doing seats, car seats, for doing fashion, fast fashion. So we were aware about that these kind of industries are very important for the world, talking about economics. But because this industry, we know that cannot stop. It's an industry that we all need because we all need the shoe for wear. We'll need, I mean, a jacket, a shoe, everything.

Yeah.

And so it's an industry that it's grown and grown year by year. So it won't stop. But we were not happy about the consequences because we knew, and we were happy with our jobs. I mean, I was working in fashion, and I was very happy with what I was doing, and he was also very happy. But then when we started asking us if we want to stay in that job, we said, yes, I want to stay here, but doing something different. I mean, being sure and being aware that what we're doing is not giving a negative impact to the environment or to the world. Because as I was working with synthetics, I knew that the waste and the contamination was a lot. I mean, it was a waste accumulation huge. And talking about the animal leather, the waste in the material was also amazing. So we said, we want to keep working in these industries, but having our mind happy with us or Or being conscious that that these these consequences are not gonna be a negative impact. So that's why we start doing some ideas, some brainstorming, and we put our tools on the table. Hey, Adrian, I know how to do this. I know this. I have experience in the fashion, in textiles, in aesthetics. And he said, okay, I have experience in automotive with animal leather, with materials, with fabrics, etc. So we put all our our experience and the tools on the table to see how we can offer to the industry a solution. Because, because we were thinking, if the industry is not changing, it's because they have no option to change. Why? Because there is no any alternative that they can use that can be real, real talking about production capacity, Quality and sustainability. So, so the answer was there. We have to create a solution for the industry so they can change. So we start using our tools. We start or well, we quit our jobs. That that was a very hard decision because we have to say goodbye to our economical life and our social life. So it was a it was a pain. But yeah, we had to do it. But after 2 years of research and development, we had a nice team with engineers. We have a nice team in universities. We learned a lot in books. We learned a lot about biology, about science, to see how we can transform a fabric— I mean, a plant into a fabric. Of course, before that, we had not the experience in that. We had to learn a lot. We took more than 2 years learning and learning to see how it's going to be possible. And at the end, we, we thought that cactus can be the solution, because if we want to create a solution, a sustainable solution for the, for the industry, we have to take into consideration everything. I mean, if we're gonna use a plant, it's important to take into consideration how many water they need to grow, how many chemicals do they need to grow. All the environmental impact is important since you grow the plant until you cut it. Okay. So if we were using a fruit that use a lot of water, then the footprint it's gonna be bad because we are using a lot of water to grow the plant. So we had to also choose a plant that is not is not demanding a lot of incomes to grow the plant, and we just and we were just looking around in Mexico, and we just saw cactus in the streets. I mean everywhere. Yeah, we say. And we said, why we were not thinking in cactus? If cactus is everywhere here, it's in the streets, it's in the fields, it's just everywhere. So we said, if we use cactus for transforming this plant into a fabric, we think, I mean, we guess it's gonna be the right solution because we won't need any care to grow the plant, Any water, any chemical, any herbicide, any pesticide, nothing. So the footprint of the plant is going to be zero. So once we so once we had this idea, once we saw the cactus in the streets and we said cactus is going to be a solution, we start this search about what is cactus. I mean, how it is, how it is grow. What are the characteristics? What is abundant? Everything about the character, all the characteristics, and we found out. I mean, we knew that cactus is gold used here in Mexico because in Mexico we use cactus for, I mean, for a lot of things. And cactus also is a food. It's in their breakfast, it's in their dishes. It is also used for the cosmetic industry. It is also for making, for making like the paintings, for constructions, for the perfumes, for flush cleaners. So, it's a plant that it's used for different industries.

Wow. A lot.

in a dish or in a cleaner or in a cosmetic, but into a fabric. And yeah, saying that, we took the research, we took the time, and after 2 years in research and development, we found out that it won't be possible. But we— but then we say, yes, it, it has to be possible. Because if we use another plant, then our solution is not going to be what we want to offer, a real sustainable solution. So, we keep pushing and pushing in cactus until— so, which plants, because as you know, cactus has more than 1,000 families, different families.

Yeah.

So, we try different families of cactus to see which one of them is going to be the most suitable for our process. We use cactuses, we use aloe, we use sábila, we use also the tequila plant. And at the end, we found out that the Puntia ficus-indica, the that that family is the correct one for, for process. Why? Because the, because the plicipersia, I mean, the plant is— there are like 4 kilos each, each, each leaf. So the biomass of each plant, it's amazing. And once you take into consideration what is important, for example, the CO2 absorption, that is what most of the new companies are focusing.

Right.

It's amazing that when you are waiting to cut or to harvest the plant, the plant itself is giving something positive for the environment. Because the plant, for example, when we cultivate the cactus right now, we have like 14 acres of land, and once— and they take around 1 year to grow, but during this year these same acres of land, they can absorb more than 8,000 tons of CO2 per year, while we only emit 15 tons to grow these plants. So they absorb a lot of CO2 just doing nothing. I mean, just growing, they absorb a lot of CO2. So taking these points into consideration, the CO2 absorption, the water negative consumption, everything, I mean, the chemicals. We said, if we achieve to create the fiber with this plant, it's gonna be the real solution. We take a lot of time in laboratories. We took like 2 years going to different laboratories in Mexico, in the United States, and the first material that we elaborate was, to be honest, was very bad, was very bad. And then we keep just pushing in more different solutions until we achieve the first material. And what we do with the CERTO is that the cactus fiber, it's a— we can create a biopolymer with the cactus fibers. So—

Okay.

We extract a protein from the cactus plant, and this protein is the one which is a substitute for a polymer that can be a polyurethane or a PVC.

Okay.

So at the end, what our material is fighting with is in 2 lines versus the contamination. The first is that because we are using the cactus fibers in the bioresin, we are creating a material that is biodegradable. And in the backing, in the material, as we're using recycled fibers from the Mexican oceans or from the fabrics, we can reuse what is already in the universe and give it a second life. So that's how we want to fight with the contamination and create a material that is sustainable for the, for the industry. So this is how we start the idea and why we start working with the cactus.

That's awesome. Well, yeah, it sounds like quite a journey of trying different plants because 1,000 different families of cactus is a lot to go through to find one that'll work. And so now with your— with the material, so with that protein, you're able to build a polymer replacement. And so now your material, you know, what, what kind of materials are you able to build with it?

Are you—

I think the ones I've seen is kind of a leather-like material. Um, but are you— is it something that can go into more technical fabrics? Are you able to kind of— what are you able to do with this, with this cactus protein now that you're able to— now you figured it out?

Well, once we figured out exactly what the solution and what we had the material, we did our launch in Italy. Why in Italy? Because we knew that that industry is more advanced in sustainable materials. So we did our launch and we introduced our first version of materials that was 28% carbon content. I mean, natural carbon content was the first version. Now on, now in 2022, we launched our 4th generation of materials that is 88% organic content in the whole material. So we have not stopped working in new solutions, in new alternatives. And once we started this development at the beginning, we were focused only in the fashion, but then the automotive came, the aeronautics came to us and said, hey, come on, we're also interested in a new solution. So we say, yeah, so if we can make a material that can be used in a bag, maybe we can also create the material that can be used in a car seat. So we start working the material, we start working the solution. Months after that, we had the solution for the industry. So right now we have different materials that can comply for apparel, for the footwear industry, for the furniture industry, for the automotive, for aeronautics, for boxing gloves, sports industry. So what is nice with the cactus material, I mean, with Desserto, is that this formulation, I mean, this biopolymer, this cactus bioresin can be customized 100%. anything. So we can customize the elasticity, we can customize the density of the material, also the thickness, the strength, the performance, so the color, the texture, everything. So anything that is already using animal leather or a plastic to use it like, uh, I mean, like, like leather, we can replace it with this.

Right.

So we can customize the formulation and the construction of the formula to create a specific application for any brand.

Oh, that's amazing. That's amazing. It's so, it's so customizable. So you're— because it's such a base material, you're able to convert, kind of basically convert it into whatever, whatever you're wanting it to become. So with that, is there— it sounds like you've kind of covered the industries already. If you're, if you're in automotive and sports, Sports and the fashion industry. I feel like you guys are already covering your bases really, really well in material use, which is amazing. You know, how long— you said 2 or 3 years in development. How old— how long ago did you start? How old are you guys right now?

We started the development In 2017, and the launch of the material was in 2019. So we took 2 years and a half until we launched the 3rd generation, and we're about to become 30 years old in 10 days. So we are both almost 30 years old.

Awesome. Oh, that's great. That's that. That is an amazing journey you guys have gone through. So, and you're— so the company's only 5 years old and you're already, you're already multiple generations in and, and working in different industries. Is there, you know, with this being a protein, like you said, and being able to be a biopolymer, do you, do you see an expansion into other types of materials or? Is this, this the best use case for this, this material you have?

Well, I think that we still have a lot of work to do because this material is not at the end. I mean, we want to achieve 100% biological material. So right now we are in 80%, but hopefully this year or next year we can achieve like 100% organic content material fully of cactus. So that's our goal, and it's still like a lot of work to do, but we still want to use cactus. You know why? Because cactus— well, we're Mexicans, so you know that all the world knows that Mexicans have the cactus in the face. So cactus is a lot more than that. I mean, cactus is a lot more than the national symbol of Mexico. It has the potential to generate thousands and thousands of jobs in Mexico in different industries. So if we're focusing this industry, we are putting this, this, this national symbol that we want to focus in, that is the Certik. This is the Certik, and it's made of cactus. And once we are using this material, and once we, once we achieve the 100%, we have to develop this same material in 100% organic for all the industries, because it's not easy. To create a material for footwear similar to the handbags or for a belt, because the strength and the performance of, for example, the seat is much more strong than is needed for a wallet. So we have to develop new constructions, new materials to see and to be sure that what we're offering, it's a nice solution, because we cannot offer the Serto or we cannot offer a sustainable solution, you cannot use it. Because if it's not— because if the performance or if the strength of the material is not the right one, I mean, isn't the right one, then any brand or any industry is going to be able to use it. So we have to be sure that it's a combination or a balance between sustainability and quality. Because if we have not the right combination between those 2 important aspects, then it's not gonna be a real solution. And also we have to be sure that that formulation is scalable because all the industries, all the brands, all the sharks of the fashion and the automotive, what they want to receive is a real solution that can be used in production. Because if they just use a capsule—

Right.

I mean a capsule, because if I am a small company that I can only produce 100 meters Per month, then for a big brand is nothing. Why? Because if they use it, it's not gonna be a real change because they are just changing like the point zero zero zero zero one percent of why they use. But if they can receive a substitute that can be a good replacement in the whole production line, then you get the interested from them because then they say, okay, this supplier, I mean this material. It's sustainable, they have the quality, they have the price, but they also have the production capacity that I need. So, once we put these 3, these 4 things on the table, then we became a real solution for the industry. So, that's why cactus, we're still thinking that cactus, we have to focus on cactus because cactus is abundant, it's not fighting with the food industry because it's a subproduct So if we still focus on this, then we won't have problem to adapt the industry, because as you know also, the land use change is a big problem now on. So land use change is changing. I mean, all the weathers in all the world are changing, and this is causing problems for all the agricultural aspects in fruits and vegetables. if there is any change in the weather, then all the crops are gonna— I mean, are gonna go down. But cactus doesn't matter, because if it's cold or it's hot or it's raining or it's not raining, cactus say, I don't care, I still grow. So, so that's why we said we have to keep this plant and—

Mm-hmm.

And grow more, because this is— the future for the sustainable materials with plants, because cactus is going to be there always to offer the biomass, because it doesn't matter whether a problem change or a land use change of the materials. I mean, the land that cactus need is any land. So that's why we keep developing new materials But using the same fiber and offering best and new solutions. I mean, new solution for— I don't know, for industrial use or for airplanes or whatever, but using this plant. And this plant is not yet in its full— in its 100% capacity. So we want to get it at the, at the maximum level as soon as possible.

Also, basically, it sounds It sounds like you guys are just beginning then with, with this material. If you guys are, you know that there's more that you can get out of it. And it's, it seems like such a, a great crop to choose because from what you're saying, you know, it's something that's, it's not going to be impacted by weather changes and it, and it takes so little. And, and that's amazing to find a crop that You know, it's, it's carbon negative because it grows, it pulls in more carbon than it, than it needs to grow. So you're already starting off in a great spot and it grows no matter what. And you're able to, you know, use it in so many different ways. And you're— it feels like you guys are just scratching the surface on, on what's possible with it, which is great that you're— you've identified that this has so many good features to it, right? The Cactus just has so many great features, and you guys are figuring out how to use it, which is fantastic. So, you know, just for kind of wrapping up here, you know, you guys have this material, you guys are gonna keep developing, you guys are using it all over the place. You know, do you have any other future goals to it? Is there other things you're wanting wanting to be able to do with this material and Desserto? Or is this kind of— or we covered it all so far?

No, of course not. We have not covered all because there are many things that can be improved. Because all the processes, all the ethical aspects, all the social aspects in the companies, in the traceability of the company, all of them are important. So we have to improve all of them. I mean, we're doing that as soon as we can. But for example, right now all the production and the warehousing and the companies in Mexico, and we only— I mean, we only keep locally the 10% of the production. So 90% of the production of Deserto is exportation. So what is—

Wow.

What it means that our main clients, our main market is not local, so we have to export and we have to fly the material, or we have to put it by sea. And this is a logistic contamination because the logistic transportation and the footprint of the boat or the train or the airplane, all of them, all of that has a negative impact. in the— I mean, the chain.

Yeah.

So, what we want to do is to reduce the logistics footprint that we are causing to our clients, because we know that, okay, yes, we do a material that is very good, and it's a nice quality and sustainable, but it's in Mexico. So, you have to put your own, I mean, logistic plan to fly it or do it, and this footprint is for you because you are Because you're finding it in other country. But right now, what we are doing is to open our own warehouses and our own factories in different continents to reduce that. In that scenario, if we produce or if we put the warehouse in Italy or in Korea or in China or in France, I don't know, then we can reduce a lot problems for everybody. I mean, problems in logistics and also reduce the logistic footprints that we're causing for the clients. This is our next The next step is to create or deserve worldwide expansion through this kind of plans, logistics, and reduce the footprint of the company. Because, yeah, because the market is there. I mean, the brands are interested and the market is growing. So we know that the brands are interested in our materials. So what we have to do is to make it easier for everybody and reduce the footprint because it's important for us, it's important for them. So, and if we're focused on sustainability, we have to take into consideration everything.

Yeah, that's such a good point. And I feel like there's a lot of companies that don't think about that as much, or more companies are, but it's great to hear that you guys are actually thinking about the delivery, the actual complete supply chain, you know, of your material, because you're totally right. You can have an amazing green product, but if you take that, take your product and stick it on an airplane, airplane and fly it around the world a couple times, you kind of undo, undo some of the good that you're trying to do. Um, with your expansion, I'm, I'm curious, are the cactus plants— are you able to grow them in different climates? Because I, I know there's— cactus doesn't grow too far north, I would, I would think. But is that something that you're able to overcome with what you're doing, is be able to actually— You know, grow the crop more locally as well?

Well, that at first step we will still grow the cactus in Mexico and, and do the production in Mexico and fly it to other countries. And in the second step, it's to grow in the other countries that crop. We think it's possible, and because we saw that, I mean, whoever is so in different countries that they have the same species in that country, so it's easy to grow, and the climate change, it won't matter. So it is possible. So our first step is to open the company, the warehouse, and do everything for everybody, and then the production of the crop in that area. But yeah, we think it is 100% possible to do it.

Amazing. And, and when you're, you're handling the transportation, kind of what, what are the things that you're— you guys are thinking about to reduce carbon footprint and things like that for transportation? Is there— are you looking at any, any alternative options? Is there, is there something, a process that you guys are going through to, to make that more efficient, um, and, and less, less of a bad impact from transportation?

Well, yeah, we have some ideas. I mean, some quick ideas right now, because, for example, opening a new factory takes time. But so right now, for example, as our main market is in Europe, and we ship very— I mean, day by day, which— I mean, we ship to Europe in air a lot of materials, and it's like in small volumes to a lot of brands. So what we're doing now is to ship in once all the productions to our warehouse in Italy, and then in Italy we distribute to everybody. So in this way, we ship only once from Mexico to Europe, and not like 1,000 times. And this way, it is the quickest time to do it.

Right.

But in the future, we want to reduce it like in the 90%, so we are Seeing what's the best strategy, and the strategy is to do the production there and put the warehouse in that different continents. Because yes, also we know that the Certo is also in the market, it is interested for the brands, because we know that we're only a tool. Yeah, I mean, because the change of the industry, of the transition to a better world or to a better industry is not your responsibility from us. I mean, it's responsibility from everybody. So—

It's a group effort.

Yeah. So the industries, as individuals, I mean, as you and I, we have to most transit into sustainability as persons, as companies, because yes, we do the material, but if the brands are not using it, then we are not changing nothing. So we have to also change our minds, change our education, change our perception of how we see things, and how we see the industry to make a real change. And, you know, I think that the pandemic came as a reminder of that. The pandemic came as a reminder that we're running out of time, that the comprehensive care of the environment, irresponsibility of all of us, and not just for the big brands of the companies or the government. Responsibility of all of us. So we have to all put our small part of grain in the environment. And I think that at least see what we're buying, to see that what we're buying is something sustainable or is something that it won't be in the world for 100 years. So I don't know. I mean, I just want to say that we are not just a tool to be a better green world. And if the companies or the people is using it, we say thank you, because thanks to them is that we can achieve our goal. Because we, without them, we are just nothing. So yeah.

Right. Well, that's a really great point, right? You could have all the amazing materials in the world, but if nobody uses them, it doesn't really matter. So we— it is, it is a group effort. Everybody needs to make a decision to, to do that and, and to take advantage of it. And, you know, I looked at some of the brands you guys are working with, uh, on your website, and it looks like some pretty big brands are starting to recognize and work with you, which is great, right? That's, um, It's a great thing to see that even big, big companies are, are seeing that, and you guys are providing a material that is, that is meeting their standards, right? It's, it's something that you can actually produce enough of where big companies can say yes to it. You know, you're, you're actually checking off the boxes, uh, which is impressive.

And not all— there's—

I've seen lots and lots of really cool materials, but not all of them are have figured out how to produce them at this scale to make a difference. Because like you said, if it's not being used, it's not doing anything. And so the way to get— make that huge difference that you guys are aiming for is to get big brands to say, yeah, let's, let's use this material. Let's, let's use it in millions of cars. Let's use it on millions of clothing. And that's when an impact starts to scale.

Right.

And you guys start to go, yes, we're seeing a difference because our material's actually getting used in millions of different products. And it's not just, you know, somebody makes 10 of something or even 1,000 of something at this point. You know, it's that— so that's great to see you guys are there and you're getting your material used. Yeah, this has been, this has been really great talking with you and having you on and learning about what you guys are doing. And, and it's amazing. It's amazing to me. It's congratulations to you guys. This is an accomplishment on your guys's part of being able to make something like this happen and get the attention of, of other brands to actually start using your guys's material. For it, for anyone that wants to connect with you, work with you guys, reach out, you know, is it what's the best way to get a hold of you? And is there anything else you want to want to share to anyone watching listening?

Well, our social media is open to everybody. I mean the Instagram and the Facebook iteserto dot pele with double S deserto and double L. Pelle, like, like leather in Italian. Deserto Pelle. And also the email is hello@deserto.com.mx. So you can reach us out in email, in the webpage, or in any social media to ask about more information, or also our catalog or materials if you want to see what we produce for different applications. It is also open in the catalog in the webpage. So you can see the prices and the materials there. So we are really transparent with, with what we sell and with all our climate impacts in all the aspects. So it's all in the webpage. And what I just want to say is that, that I think that, that together, by using this kind of materials and adopting ethical practices in the companies, we can really be able to help through the fashion industry or the automotive industry build a better world. So the fashion and the automotive, it should be not like the barrier. We can use it to be a better world. So we just need to find the nice tools and the nice practices to get there. And this is a responsibility. I keep saying this, keep saying this, the responsibility of all of us. So Let's help the world stay here for thousands and thousands of more years.

Yeah, well, keep saying it until we all— until we all get on the same page. It's good to have, have, uh, people like you reminding everyone that, yeah, we need to— we need to all work towards something and make a decision. And yeah, I'm, I'm really excited to see you guys are getting the success you are, and I hope that you, you You guys continue to grow. And yeah, I appreciate you taking some time out of your busy day. And you've been traveling quite a bit with launching products and everything. So I appreciate your time to share your guys' story and what you're doing.

Well, thank you so much, Ian. It's a pleasure to talk to you about what we're doing. We're passionate about this industry, so we are really happy to be talking with you about this.

Fantastic. Thank you so much, Marte.

Well, thank you so much, Ian.