Interview with Perry Galanopoulos of Fufluns Foods on Creating High Quality Organic Supply Chain

Hello everyone.

This is Ian Peterman, your host of the Conscious Design Podcast. And today with me is Perry from FooFen Foods, who does a very interesting process to get better plants in a better format for all of us to consume.

So, Great to have you here.

It's— I love the fact that you work in so many different areas and have created such a sustainable business, and great to have you.

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

So I wanted to kind of start at the beginning. How did you— how did you get into this?

So I've always had a passion for health, wellness, and environmentalism. Uh, did, did sort of a corporate background in that I used to build distribution and manufacturing facilities. For corporate America, primarily in distribution and fulfillment, but we were a part of the entire supply chain. So I got to a point in my life where my values really didn't match what I was doing, and I wanted to make a difference. So, you know, this, this started about when the whole CBD craze started kicking off, and that— and when I started kind of looking into it, You know, CBD in essence, or CBD isolates, are really heavily processed, more quasi-pharmaceuticals than actual plant products, and that which sort of bothered me, and I knew that there was a better way. So, so we ended up, we ended up leading with, with hemp extract, and I'm sure we'll get into it a lot more as we go on, but it was really out of a desire to— one, it's been a bit of a spiritual awakening for me because as you get closer to the earth, you see things a little bit differently. And as I sort of went through the supply chain of the cannabis plant, from through farming, through extraction, and then ultimately to the end consumer, you really end up touching a lot of people's lives. And it became a lot more meaningful than I ever would have imagined.

And then—

Yeah, and supply chain, that's something that we don't always think about. Even with our food, right? We think, oh, we go get our food, or, oh, we get a plant medicine, we get plants. There is an actual supply chain to it. There's more— it's more than just, oh, it comes right out of the ground and straight to you. And so your background in that, it must have given you a little bit deeper understanding of how much is actually part of creating a product. Even in the plant world?

Yes. I mean, to a lot of extent, it was actually a bit disheartening. So most of the agriculture in this country is industrialized, right? So we do a lot of monocropping— corn, soybeans, and whatnot. There's a lot of tilling. There's a lot of synthetics using, which is actually really kind of disappointing because conventional farming practices are really designed to destroy the soil, right? And they turn it into dead, lifeless dirt. So if you look at the model, most farming is subsidized in this country because farmers aren't able to make a profit through natural practices. So really what kind of happens is they use heavy machinery, which compacts the earth. They till or turn up the soil, which destroys the mycelium, which is the vegetative state of mushrooms. But, and that which also provides nutrients to the soil. They kill the nematodes or the earthworms. And then they lay down synthetics, often salt-based synthetics, which really kill the whole soil food web. And then what happens is the farmers are dependent upon these synthetics and the companies that produce them to be able to produce a viable crop. Those said companies pay off lobbyists/politicians. The politicians give the farmers the subsidies they need to survive. And in the end, a lot of our food supply is contaminated and our earth is also contaminated by it. So in regards of plants and plant material, really what we focus on is regenerative farming or biodynamic farming, where the focus is to limit and reduce inputs over the time to produce healthy living soil versus a dead substrate, which is more of Just something that holds the plant in place.

Yeah, and I've seen studies where they've taken biodiverse farming, they've done permaculture, and they've been able to reclaim basically desert areas into lush growing, you know, very habitable, not a desert anymore space. And I've seen there's Been a few other companies. I've actually— there is one, I forget the name of it, of course, right now, but they actually are producing beef that regenerates because of how they farm the land.

Yep.

It actually ends up being a carbon-neutral farm, even though they're producing beef. And so, which is amazing, right? That's, that's a huge, huge part, but it's very small. There's very few people, like, they They had to do a whole lot of education for their customers to even explain what they're doing. So, and it's not something that most of us know about. It's not— it's kind of a little off-science. It's been proven, but it's not mainstream. It's not, you know, you ask the average person today and they probably have never heard of it. So how did you come across it? And how have you been working to obviously utilize that in your guys's supply chain and producing really good products.

Yep. So, so when I started, I'm based in Chicago, so the, the closest place for me to find farms was down in Kentucky. Um, did a little bit of reading and due diligence prior to that, um, but then just jumped in the car, drove down there, and, um, you know, you know, websites always have these beautiful pictures of these, these incredible utopian landscapes of where they're growing. And when I got down there, it was a bit of a disappointment in that, you know, Kentucky, they were hit hard with tobacco's decline, and they more or less recreated the model with hemp and cannabis. And I use those names synonymously because hemp is really just a designation the government has given for a cannabis product that has less than 0.3% THC. But in the end, it's all cannabis, right? But really, the model was the same in that there's a hyperfocus on growing, a single plant, growing it as inexpensively as possible, and then using processing and whatnot to kind of clean it up and isolate the compounds or the parts that they want. But getting a little bit back to topic, you know, I began down there and didn't really care for what they were doing, which was primarily driven by science. So if you look at the cannabis plant, really what makes it special are the 400+ compounds within the plant. that work together synergistically. So, and this isn't from sort of the latest and greatest, you know, medical professional that you see on the news and has their own show. There's a gentleman by the name of Dr. Raphael Mechoulam, who's been researching cannabis for probably over 50 years. He's sort of laid the foundation of cannabis research, having identified the THC molecule, the CBD molecule, and the endocannabinoid system. And kind of where I'm going with this is that what makes it special are the cannabinoids and the terpenes and that. So in terms of quality, what you're looking for are plants that are rich in this. So I kind of had that foundation with me when I headed down there and that, and when I met with their team, I saw the farm, you know, the farm looked very conventional in terms of, you know, rows and rows of plants and that. And then they were very excited to show me their test results saying, oh, you know, like, I'd look at our quantities and that, and these are quote unquote full spectrum products. And when I looked at the test results, you know, it had CBD dominance to it, but then it had just a couple other cannabinoids and was pretty void of terpenes. And for those that aren't aware, terpenes are what make up essential oils, and they're what gives plants their smell and taste. And it's not unique to cannabis, but it has a real physiological effect on our body. Lavender being soothing, citrus being uplifting, what's really causing that effect are the terpenes. So, you know, when you hear everybody talk about, you know, full spectrum, but there are lots of, lots of different grades of that. And a lot of times, a lot of marketing efforts will take that and kind of twist it into, hey, we're full spectrum, we're a quality product, which it really doesn't mean as much unless you look at the reports. So in terms of my experience, and when you get to the plant, you know, going down there, you know, we— I saw them growing, mass-produced plants. And then in terms of what the product quality looked like, you know, they had more than just CBD, but they didn't have much more. And it wasn't necessarily an organization that I wanted to be affiliated with, nor a product that I wanted to sell, because in short, the quality and the environmental impact, I wasn't on board with.

Well, when you're— because we talked about this before— is that you're going after the whole plant. You're not going after just one part of it. So if you're only— if your test results are showing that it's kind of missing or the amounts are so small that you can't measure it anymore, that doesn't give you the product to start with even in terms of quality.

Correct.

Right? So if you're missing half your ingredients, you can't make the cake you want to make. You're going to end up with something else. It might be the shape of a cake, but it is not the one you said it was going to be.

Right. And the other side, and even kind of more concerning, is not only does it not have the ingredients, it has a ton of ingredients that I didn't want, being those synthetics that they use for herbicides, fungicides, pesticides, and all the contamination. So, the reason why you'll see CBD products and full-spectrum CBD products being clear and yellow is because they're processed. So they're mass-producing these oils, they're using synthetics, our environment is contaminated, but then they'll lean on processing to clean up. So they're not necessarily clean products, they're cleaned-up products. So when we're sourcing biomaterial, we look first and foremost for potency. We want a product that's rich in cannabinoids and terpenes, but then secondly, we want a product that's naturally free of contamination, which is a monumental task in that I literally have to drive hours into the middle of nowhere to find farms that are naturally free of contamination. And that's a function of our commitment to quality in that we test for contaminants at about a 50% concentration, or for people who are familiar with like RSO oil, and that it's a very condensed, concentrated product. That's the point in time which the appropriate time to test for it. Most of what you see when you look up a company's test results for contamination, one, they're usually incomplete. You know, they don't have pesticides, heavy metals, myco— mycotoxins, and microbials. And 2, they're testing at a 3% concentration after it's been diluted and processed, where we're testing a crude, unprocessed, unadulterated product.

Right, which, which means your, your product is quite a bit more If the test results were the same and you're measuring it at 3% versus 50% concentration, that's quite a bit of a magnitude difference between those, those 2 testing points.

For sure. For us, that's paramount, and that goes beyond any sort of certification, soil test, or whatnot. Often those are snapshots in time. When you, when you're testing for contamination on the plant at a crude level, that's going to tell you if that plant in that environment at any point in time in the process experienced any of those sorts of contaminants. So for us, a very, very, very hard process is sourcing.

Right. And because you're— so what you're just saying is, because of how you're testing it and when you're testing it, you're actually getting a picture of the entire life of that plant. From the time it started growing until the time it's been harvested.

So that you—

so you actually know because of how dense it is, how concentrated it is, you actually know if you did get— if maybe on week 3 of its life it got contaminated, you would know because it would be outside of an uncontaminated life then, correct?

Correct. And it's not just the farmer. So, you know, I've interacted with with very well-intentioned farmers that are doing the right thing or everything right, except the location of their farm. So it's not just a single farm, but it's also everybody else around them. And that if there's water runoff, if somebody's crop dusting a mile away and it blows, cannabis especially, because cannabis is a bioaccumulator, meaning it pulls everything from its surroundings. And it's not so great of getting rid of those contaminants. So cannabis can be used for bioremediation of dirty soil as well. In some cases, you, of course, don't want to consume it in any manner, but it's really a good bird in the coal mine sort of test in terms of what the environment looks like.

Right. Acts more of a filter that gets dirty and cleans everything else around it. Right.

And then, and then becomes something you don't necessarily want.

Um, let's talk about your process. So one of the other really unique things about what your process is, and most people don't know, is spagyric. But let's— if you could talk about that, your process and how you actually take it from plant material, you're able to break it down, reassemble it, and not damage it because of how you are actually doing that.

Sure. Yeah. So most people out there are using heat to decarboxylate, and herbal alchemy or spagyrics is very similar to biodynamic farming, and it kind of goes hand in hand in that the process is— it has fundamentals that all beings are made up of a soul, a body, and a spirit. And that's whether it's a mineral, whether it's an animal or a plant. And in cannabis, because that's the easiest representation, your soul or your sulfur are your essential oils, your terpenes, and your cannabinoids. Your spirit is your alcohol. Traditionally, it's fermented, but when you get to that high a proof, alcohol's alcohol, right? Ethanol, and when you're at 95%, chemically, it's all pretty much the same.

Right.

And then the body are the salts or the minerals of it. So really what this herbal alchemical process is, it's separation, purification, and recombination of the soul, the body, and the spirit. So what that sort of translates to in a practical sense is you're doing an extract of an alcohol extract at low temperature, Once that extract is done, you take the carcass or the spent biomaterial and you calcine that and you extract the minerals out. And what's kind of interesting is that those minerals are base. So if you add those base minerals into an acidic tincture, an acid and a base neutralize one another. So I guess to back up for a second, the plant really grows cannabinoids in an acidic state. Cannabis doesn't grow THC and CBD, it grows THCA and CBDA, right? So if you eat a marijuana bud, you're not really going to get high or get any sort of psychoactive effects from it. I mean, depending on how much you eat and how old it is, because it'll convert over time, but in essence, it doesn't fit into your CB1 receptor, which is in your brain. It's like a lock and key, it's too big, doesn't fit. So normally, What you do is you apply heat to it. You smoke a bowl, you make brownies in the oven, etc. And if you're going after the psychoactive effect, being primarily THC, it really doesn't matter. However, if you're going after medicinal purposes, terpenes are key, and you want to preserve them as much as possible. So what happens is they start vaporizing a little bit over 100 degrees. You have to get up to 225 to decarboxylate. So you're adulterating the plant and you're changing its chemical composition from how it's grown. So if you, if you go back and you extract with alcohol, one, you're grabbing all the water and the oil constitutes out of the plant. Then when you add the minerals back in, these minerals are base, and it actually causes a verifiable chemical reaction in that it decarboxylates the plant without heat or converts the cannabinoids to a usable form. non-acidic in that. So this sort of woo-woo herbalism from days ago actually has a verifiable process that is confirmed with science and leaves the plant in its natural state with its natural ratios in terms of all the oil solubles, the water solubles, and the mineral solubles.

It's just a way to break it all down into a nice little tincture as if you were consuming the whole plant, but in a— what do you call that— a format that your body can actually ingest rather than, like you're saying, it's kind of, it's all there, but it's kind of a little bit separate because it's sitting as an acidic form. You can't really intake it. Your body, your body ignores it basically. And then you're able to— Condense it and actually not lose any of all those little ingredients inside of the plant that you want to have there.

For sure. I mean, the acidic form of CBD has some benefits, but not to the same extent. But really what we try to do is let Mother Nature do the heavy lifting and provide unadulterated products. We're trying to mimic the plants' ratios in their natural state, and that rather than taking pieces of it, right? We take the entire orchestra rather than taking the woods or the brass or whatnot. And that where, if you can compare it to conventional methods, so saying your CBD isolates, right? So if you look on the back of your label and you see aerial parts and you see CBD as an ingredient, what that product has gone through is one, you know, it started with conventional farming, rows and rows of plants. They cut the plant at the ground level. They grind up the stems, the seeds, the stalks, and the flower. They put it through a technology that's called CO2, which the producers claim is a great technology and it is safe. However, all it does is grab the oils. CO2 is also used to dry clean clothes and inexpensively decaffeinate coffee. So it's not really designed as an herbal extraction tool. It's sort of what industry said, hey, we can use this machine to inexpensively grab the most active ingredients from the cannabis plant. So after it goes through CO2 extraction, they'll then take it through a process called winterization. They remove the chlorophyll, the waxes, the lipids, Then they go through fractional distillation and you'll separate your cannabinoids and terpenes. Then you'll go through chromatography, you'll isolate your CBD molecule, turn it into a powder. Then you put it in a bottle with some oil, add some flavoring, add some colors, wrap it in a green label, and try to sell it as a natural product.

Yeah, that sounds like the process I've seen before. So how did you, how did you How did you come across your process? Like, how do you— because we all— anybody that works in that field knows CO2 extraction. Like, that's very—

CO2 is boom.

Right?

It was— I mean, I took— I spent about 3 months sort of tracing the path. And it wasn't something that was set out, but, you know, again, it began down in Kentucky. I went to Colorado. to California, I went to Oregon, I went to Washington. You know, my wife likes to call it my 3-month vacation on and off. And it was incredibly enjoyable. But throughout the way, I kept meeting different individuals that really sort of impacted the product, right? I mean, you know, I went to this World CBD Expo up in the San Francisco Bay Area. You know, and it was going there was probably kind of naive. You know, it was at the Marriott, which I thought, okay, this is, this is legit. I got to the Marriott and they said, well, it's not actually in our convention center. It's in a tent out back. Right. And it was a big tent and it was a, it was a nice tent, but it was a tent. Right. So my expectations dropped a little bit. You know, the next morning, got in line to go in. I looked at the people around me and again, expectations lowered a little bit more in that it wasn't it wasn't for— it wasn't necessarily the crowd that I wanted to be with. And overall, it was an interesting— it was an interesting event. But the one thing that stuck out was I met a gentleman by the name of Leonard Lenow, who wrote a book called Healing Without the High. And he owns Synergy Wellness in Marin County. And he's been a cannabis practitioner for 40 years. And I'm sure he probably wouldn't remember me, But I hung out with them for about 2 days and kept going back to their booth. I met another farmer, a gentleman by the name of George. I met a Dr. Michael Moskowitz. And these guys were doing the real work. And that's really what kind of inspired me in terms of sort of cementing what I wanted to do. Everybody has been kind of jumping in this industry because it's been the hot industry. But there are sort of the true believers and the people who are really producing products and really want to help. And then there are sort of other individuals that are kind of looking to get in, get out, and maybe make quick— quicker money.

I feel like you get that every time there's a new market, and it's not very often you branch open a whole, whole new industry like, like CBD and cannabis and all that. It definitely feels like a once-in-a-lifetime event, and we're all kind of seeing what happens when you, when you generate something like that now. It's kind of interesting. You have everything from, you know, the very industrial, hey, we're gonna put a few million dollars, make a factory, pump it out till it gets too expensive, and then we're gonna close shop and walk away. And then people like you that are like, no, I'm on a journey to find the best possible version ever known to man. And then make it and sell it and make this more a way of life than, than a quick buck. And it's just that, that spectrum is pretty big.

But yeah, and there, I mean, I mean, through the journey, I've really met some of the most amazing people. And I've also met some that I just have learned to walk quickly away from.

And that Yeah.

But we're definitely looking to, to try to provide a product that, that's, that's as good as we can get for consumption for humanity and animals, um, but then also something that is going to help our environment. And I, I really believe more and more in synchronicity. Um, I believe more and more in intention and that, you know, the universe presents things when you're ready. And it, it sounds corny, and me 20 years ago would be laughing at myself Right now, but I find I'm much happier, I'm much more at peace, and I feel like I'm a better human being in terms of what we do. And, you know, we're not perfect by far, but we continue to refine and adjust as needed. You know, we were using beeswax at one point, and then, you know, a couple of our customers were like, hey, you know, you really shouldn't be using beeswax, the bees are in trouble. So we switched to candelilla wax and, you know, and all through the way, we're still sort of tweaking products and we're changing. And I think from a cannabis perspective and hemp perspective, we're pretty solid in that we have great vendors and they know what they're doing. We're still figuring it out a little bit in terms of the mushroom realm and ashwagandha, and we're wanting to kind of get into a couple other things here and there.

Yeah. Now, how is that— you established this supply chain that is at least as clean as you can get it in existence now. How is that translating over? You mentioned working on other crops, basically. How is that— is it being helpful, or are you having to relearn it again in order to work with a new plant?

You know, it's— there's a little bit of relearning. I mean, honestly, the hardest part of a lot of it is just sourcing and finding quality, reliable vendors in that, because right now there aren't any large businesses doing this. I mean, I would love to see— I mean, as much as it would put us out of business, if some large corporate player decided that they wanted to grow regeneratively and biodynamically and they put me out of business, I would be okay with that. And I think my farming partners would be okay with that because the world would be a much better place. It's just not how everybody sees the world, right? I mean, I like profits. I'm a capitalist on many levels, but we just don't want to sacrifice product or our planet for that. I mean, and we're kind of in the mode now where I'm getting ready to try to raise some capital and I have to convince investors that we're going to put organic organic cotton balls in our, in our, in our capsule bottles, right? And like, you look at it from every, every different angle and like, why the hell would you do, you know, like, why would you do that? And, you know, and we use organic cane alcohol instead of just regular, uh, ethanol, um, which in essence is the same thing, but it's sort of part of who we are in that we, we really want to work with those that, that want to do good and we want to support them. And if it doesn't work out, I'm okay with that, knowing that I'm gonna do this my way and what I believe is the right way, or not at all.

Well, I feel like now, now is a good time. People are much more aware. They're— people are finally thinking about the supply chain and that there is more to just a couple steps to get a product made, and there's more of an impact in the manufacturing process, whether, you know, it's 5 steps or 1,000 steps. There's, there's a huge impact that is made environmentally, socially, and of course financially. And as we all know, without profit, a company won't exist. So that means nobody gets to enjoy the product they make if they, if they go out of business. And I think I think it's— yeah, I think this is a great time for you guys to be coming out and, and helping show people what can be possible. Because if nobody does, then no one will stretch. And that's how we— that's how we grow as a, as a planet. Every single time somebody goes, hey, there's a better way, and then long enough, hopefully not too long, everybody else goes, hey, it is actually profitable. We can make something that's sustainable and healthy. and good for everyone and the planet and, and make money at it. And it's okay, it's gonna work. So yeah, somebody's, somebody's got to take the first step. I mean, that's really, that's really what it comes down to is somebody's got to jump first to show that it's all fine, it's all good, and you can, you're going to stick the landing just fine.

Yeah, I mean, it's a balancing act. I mean, I mean, you, you want to, you want profits, But you don't want to be entirely profit-focused because then that drives your, your entire business, right? And then you start making— you may start making decisions purely based off of the numbers. You start losing touch with, with the earth and the product, right? And that, that's a lot of what we see, and that's kind of a frustration, you know, in terms of the CBD industry, is that, you know, one, It's— the science doesn't back it up. I mean, I'm a firm believer that history is going to look back on these CBD isolates as, you know, the high fructose corn syrup of the hemp industry, because we haven't consumed them for a very long time. And you have a lot of people doing a lot of different things in the industry to it, and you don't know what's in that bottle. And that's— so, you know, for me, you know, we stick with nature, we stick simple, we stay with simplicity. And that, and it simplifies things across the board in terms of how we act, how we interact with the planet and everybody else. I mean, where we look for fair.

So let's, before we wrap up, what are your, what do you see down the road? Like, what is your, and obviously you'd be happy if a giant company started doing what you're doing and kind of took over, mainstreamed it. But barring that, you know, it probably won't happen in the next year or two. Where, where are you wanting to take this? Kind of what, what is your plan with taking what you're doing and, and growing it?

Yeah, I mean, I mean, I mean, hopefully we become that big company, right? I'm good with that. I'm good with that. I'm good with that too. You know, right now we're sort of, you know, we offer, offer mushrooms as well. And we've got some really really solid mushroom products. We're still sort of figuring out our place in the marketplace in terms of balancing the delivery methods and that with also what the American consumer likes, you know, in terms of alcohol tinctures versus capsules, and then in terms of the different blends and how to best introduce it. Really excited about, you know, we also offer ashwagandha, which is another big herb in Ayurvedic medicine. We're going to be getting into shilajit, which is a mineral resin that forms in the Himalayas, which is another one. And we're also working on— we're R&Ding a Lift and Focus, a nootropic product that'll help boost mood and mental function that we're hoping to be used as sort of a standalone product, but then also something that can be used with psilocybin, either microdosing or even heavier dosing in terms of trying to promote the experience, and then also encourage a more positive experience. Because sometimes, especially if somebody hasn't done like psilocybin or psychedelics, you know, it could go either way. I mean, it's very therapeutic, but sometimes you're unloading a lot of baggage at once. And it, it's not always fun. So if you use, you know, cacao, blue lotus, different herbs that relax the mind and the body, we can kind of try to encourage, encourage a good outcome.

Well, that would be great. I know there's more and more, even therapists are starting to work with, with those things as we're slowly decriminalizing things like mushrooms. And so yeah, having, having something that would help if you're doing it with a therapist who's going to guide you through that, being able to make it a little easier on everyone involved. I think that would be good. A little gentler session would always be appreciated. So that's great. That's great to be able to work with that kind of thing.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Well, I really am very happy you were able to make some time to record this with me and be on a podcast. I really— this kind of work where you're actually making that Earth better and making a great product that you can sell. I feel like there's a lot of win-wins with what you're doing. So this has been, this has been great. I love hearing about what you guys do. It's fascinating to me, the world of organic farming and regenerative farming and what you can do with it. So it's nice to see someone's really pushing it ahead and trying to make a successful Product and company to show it works.

No, thank you so much for having. I really appreciate being on.

Yeah. So last thing is where can people find you guys? They want to buy your product, check you guys out.

Where would they go?

Well, Air One, right? So everybody in the LA area, our big proof of concept, and we are beyond proud to be to be offered at the Air One markets in in LA County. Great store. Great store, great store. Uh, up in San Francisco, we're up at Good Earth, up a little bit north of Marin County, up in San Francisco for everybody out in California. Uh, Ukai Natural Foods, um, we're in Mendocino, uh, uh, county as well. Um, and then of course we're all over the Chicagoland area and a little bit in Milwaukee, and then of course online.

All right, and what is your website?

Uh, fufflunsfoods.com. Uh, F-U-F-L-U-N-S-F-O-O-D-S dot com.

Perfect.

Awesome.

Well, I'm hoping there'll be a link somewhere in the bio, or—

We will definitely be adding all of the links in, in the description, uh, wherever we post this, so those will be easily available. And thank you again, I really appreciate it.

Thanks for Thanks for having me. Awesome.