Interview with Richard Schreiber of the Ubuntu Initiative - Conscious Design Podcast

Hi, my name is Ian Peterman, CEO of Peterman Design Firm, on the Conscious Design Podcast. I'm here with Richard here to talk about, uh, an interesting project that you've been working on. Uh, Involved a little bit of diversity and knowledge and learning. And tell me more about it.

Yeah, thanks, Ian. And thank you for having me on, on the podcast. I'm grateful to be here. So yeah, my background is in technology. Originally, I used to have a lot of clients that were top Fortune 50 companies, AM Law 50 companies. So in my origins, I guess, of what I did, I started out about really helping large corporations save money and better their business processes. But, you know, what changed all that to a large extent was my daughter, who is on the autism spectrum. And because of her— and I'll just tell a kind of a quick story that kind of really crystallized in my mind, and it's all related to the project that I'm working on because it's My daughter is neurodiverse, so diversity is obviously a term that I'll talk a little more about, but it obviously is a very broad-based term that talks about, you know, the differences that we are. So my daughter was going to elementary school. She was on her— it was her last day. I picked her up at school. And I noticed that she was standing off by herself and she was in tears. Now, my daughter never cries or rarely cries. That's just one of the characteristics of a child who's on the spectrum. And when I knelt down to talk to her, she said, Daddy, for 6 years, nobody wanted to be my friend. And that's, of course, one of the last things that a parent ever wants to hear. And for me, it was, you know, I was a good provider. I've always been for my daughter, but it kind of was a wake-up call that I needed to do more for her. I needed to become really her advocate. And that sort of started me down the path of, you know, really stepping up and looking at every conceivable thing that I could do for my daughter to provide for her, to help usher her into hopefully adulthood or young adulthood and beyond as she started to get older. And then we had her in a program in New York City in a school that was a special program for autistic kids where highly functional autistic kids like my daughter could be part of a general ed program. but there were 2 teachers, one special ed and one gen ed, and it was, it was a very worthwhile program. But unfortunately, in the 2+ years that my daughter was in middle school at one school not too far from where we live in East Harlem in Manhattan, my daughter was persistently bullied. And, you know, what I found for— and we would go up there and talk to the principal, meet with the school, you know, what are you going to do about it? And we didn't really see a lot of action ultimately. And it was one of the most challenging aspects is really that in the public school system here and probably throughout most of the country, they don't really have a program internally to talk to the students about, hey, you've got Neurodiverse or special needs kids roaming the hallways with you, they're different. And, you know, you need to try to understand and embrace their difference to not make them feel bad. But they won't do that in the public school. And their comment or their rationale for not doing that has always been, well, some parents don't tell their kids they're autistic or that they have ADHD or dyslexia or whatever it is. You know, which is, which is a separate issue, and I don't know, I can't really speak to the veracity of that or not. It seems puzzling to me because, you know, one of the things as parents you want to be with your children is to be honest. So we ended up transferring her to another school, but that sort of was my first exposure to, you know, this notion of diversity and the lack of really the lack of acceptance. That really stuck in my mind that I need to figure out a way to help my daughter and other families in the same situation in this space. I ended up forming an autism community in New York City. I have about 170-odd Facebook followers on a group. Before COVID we used to have small get-togethers and meetups with other parents. playdates, and I would bring in some care providers who would talk to them about what was necessary. So, you know, the advocacy was, was already sort of developed in me. And then this project, the Mbutu Initiative, kind of came out of nowhere, to be perfectly honest. I participated in one of these EXOs. A lot of them really kind of cropped up after Black Lives Matter and during the COVID thing— not the COVID thing, but the onset of COVID-19— where people were just kind of looking for projects. I think, not to be political, but in America, I think in the recent term, there was a lot of disruption, I think, to the harmony. And clearly some of this some of the racism, some of the negativity towards diversity and inclusion really bubbled to the surface. I think you saw that in what happened during Black Lives Matter and the aftermath of that. But the beauty of what happened in Black Lives Matter, although, you know, obviously there was some violence and some other things that were unfortunate was that there is a tremendous outpouring of interest worldwide in diversity now. In particular, Black Lives Matter is the single most popular and largest organization and protest, a group of protests that has ever happened in the history of mankind. even beyond what happened in our country, in America, in the 1960s, you know, with Martin Luther King and equal rights and, and what was going on back then. So, you know, there's a real groundswell in what's happening in the world today. The Mbusho Initiative came out of one of these EXO programs that I met with 4 or 5 other people back in August, and The, I guess, the overarching theme of that particular was diversity and inclusion. And when I told my story to the group about how my daughter was bullied and almost pushed down the stairs at one point, I was actually fearful for her life, which is why I ended up transferring her to another school. And, you know, when I kind of just told them my story, they said, wow, this this is pretty powerful. This is a good way to kind of communicate. And somehow the idea or the notion of building a board game where teenagers could learn about diversity and inclusion and then other critical issues facing the world that just seemingly fell off the radar or for political or other reasons, whether it was climate control or whatever, you know, just really wasn't getting the proper fact-based, science-based exposure in the press, that we decided to create what's become now the Mbutu Game. And I have 3 other partners that we have formed an organization called Games to Unite, because we're really looking at this as a starting point. Because we— our ultimate goal is to really create a whole worldwide initiative around the embracing of diversity and inclusion. And through our game, we want to expose teenagers through questions about different categories involving diversity and inclusion and some of these issues. So yeah, and so that they can have conversations about it. And there's some other aspects too, but that's probably a good stopping point for now.

Oh, that's good. I definitely see COVID and Black Lives Matter, just 2020 in general, it produced a lot of things that brought into the awareness, like Totally agree with you is diversity, inclusion, equity. Those, those were not burning hot topics in 2019 at all. And now, and now they are, and a lot of shifts are being made. And, you know, kind of, we talked about your project a little bit before and your initiative, and I really enjoyed that the gamification works. It gets people to look at it.

But, you know, when you guys were looking at this topic and how to get people engaged, were you just looking at games or were you—

did you kind of mull over like, how did you end up with, oh, let's do a board game and turn this into a launching point for more to go after?

Yeah, I think the real rationale behind doing a board game is that it gets people face-to-face in a very old-fashioned And interestingly enough, even in spite of COVID or maybe because of COVID board games have become much more popular in recent times than ever before. They're at— there's a huge enterprise out there in board games. And the idea of half a dozen or 8 teenagers sitting around a table playing a board game, interacting with one another in person, You know, was really appealing to us. And, you know, we do intend to plan to have the game also distributed as a web version because we know, you know, the COVID reality. And also we began to see— I think we've all learned, Ian, that through Zoom, you know, Zoom has made the world a smaller place.

Does it have much smaller?

Yeah, and it's actually in some ways improved and enhanced communications. It's like my wife, for example, she has family in Peru, and, you know, they would call maybe once around the holidays, but now they do Zoom calls like every quarter and get the whole family on. Everybody sees everyone, the new babies and whatnot, and it's, and it's become, you know, kind of a social phenomenon. So We recognize that too, that, you know, we have to— we have to— and also by digitizing the games, your earlier point, the aspects of gamification kind of come into play. Although not so much in the traditional sense, because I know I have a 14-year-old who has an Xbox, a Switch, you know, every imaginable thing. And, you know, from— Oh my God. Yeah, and from observing her, you know, with, with those kinds of games, there, there's, there's books written about this, um, there's an addictive component to playing these games because there's a reward system, um, you know, you play with other players, competitive. So there's, there's that kind of aspect that we didn't really want to go there. But we did want to build a game that users would want to play over and over again. So we have some thoughts on, you know, where a young player could create a profile, they would accumulate points, and then one of our ideas is to kind of make the availability of contribution to the game. You know, maybe some of the questions, some of the experiences in a crowdsourcing scenario.

Mm-hmm.

So that if you're— if you've reached a certain level, you get to contribute, you know, 3 questions that will become in rotation in one particular category. So we want to kind of get the players involved in contributing to the game as well. So that's sort of the way we look at gamification, not so much for currency, you know, not so much for those kinds of things.

Right. Well, and yeah, to your— definitely to your point, there's the gamification, you can take it to the To the point of playing on, you know, addiction, dopamine hit, and getting very, you know, make it a slot machine. Or, you know, also just learning, interacting and learning. If you learn, it gives you additional levels of learning something, not just reading it, which is, you know, great. It's great by itself. People learn all kinds of things reading a book. But adding this level of interaction That you're talking about and participation as well.

Yeah.

It sounds like it could really help connect people more and have more interesting questions even, especially if you're getting questions from people that are living it themselves and just that is their life. And so then they can have some interesting questions. Oh, you should ask this question and see how that goes.

Yeah, exactly. And, you know, you could be playing the game with players all over the world, and, you know, their questions would be different than someone— someone from South Africa, their questions would be markedly different than someone from New York City.

Right.

You know, they're just dealing with different issues. They go about things differently from a cultural perspective. So That's why we want the interaction, or the participation rather, from the players to really have an input on how, you know, what are the questions, what are the conversations that get asked. And we call it an experiential game because in addition to the fact that, yeah, there's the in-person or the video component, some of the categories will will actually have collaborative activities like pick a player and debate this topic, you know, one person takes one side, one person takes the other side, or work on— play charades or work on arts and crafts together, or maybe, you know, cook something together, create a menu together or something. So the idea is to also make it collaborative between one or more of the players as well. Then the final piece is what we intend to do with both alternate reality and virtual reality. Our plan is you could be playing the game, it might be projected on a big screen or a big-screen TV, and through AR, you could use your smartphone to walk up to the game, scan a barcode, and actually experience what it might be like walking on a dusty street in Kowloon, for example.

Hmm.

And, you know, different geographical locations in the world. And then the final piece with the virtual reality would be— our thought is to create avatars for participants so that For example, someone who's neurotypical could put on the glasses and would see firsthand what it's like to be someone who's on the autism spectrum, where the sensitivity to light and noise and motion can be really jarring to them that the average person just doesn't really see and appreciate. But might see an autistic person shy away or react in a strange way and not know the reason why. Well, now you can understand why they're sensitive to light and loud noises and, you know, fast motion and things like that, and, and gain that appreciation and that understanding through an avatar experience.

Right. Well, that would seem like a very interesting way to take it even farther than autism, but other kinds of Um, you know, spectrum that the human race is, is in, in experiencing it as an avatar, different, different—

For sure.

Levels. Um, and that kind of way you mentioned wanting to expand, so do you— where do you see, where do you see this initiative growing since you, you started as a core? Do you— are you staying in one area? Are you wanting to add more, you know, products and experiences, or what does that look like for you the next couple years?

Yeah, that's a great question, Ian. I know one thing that we're planning and we've already sort of envisioned is that because we're also interacting, or interjecting rather, cultural affairs, you know, beyond inclusion and diversity and other key areas like we talked about climate change. We see the game kind of evolving into perhaps different flavors of the game. We might produce a version of the game, for example, that is more specifically targeted to neurodiverse and neurotypical players together that might be more suitable for that kind of environment. Or, or we might create other versions of the game that are maybe more geographically suited or local or what have you. And, and then eventually, you know, we would like to expand. We're thinking of expanding definitely beyond teenagers into college age and then into young adults in the workforce. I think in the workforce today, You know, the area of diversity and inclusion is incredibly hot on corporations because the younger workforce, they're, you know, this is so important to them. And not that it isn't to my generation, but, you know, my generation, as I guess as baby boomers, you know, we were just sort of used to just suck it up and get it done.

Right.

But a little bit of a different mentality.

A little bit different mentality. But yeah, the younger labor force today, you know, some of their most pressing concerns is, does my company have an affinity for, you know, what's different about me? Is this the kind— do I work for a kind of company that espouses inclusion and diversity, that there are indeed equal opportunities for me regardless of my race or color or creed? Does the company have a program that accentuates that? Which in large part in the past, as we know, in corporate America was not a primary focus. So that's changing. So we possibly see evolving our product into even a corporate space.

Mm-hmm.

Where using the same kind of philosophy and either playing a game or having kind of these interactive sessions, um, with, with, with employees and, and, uh, employers that they begin to learn about, you know, this in a, in a much more open, safe space.

Yeah, well, I would, I would love to see something like this turn into, you know, a corporate team building exercise. It would be— yeah, well, something like this. That would help, you know, bring awareness. And like you said, just kind of let people, you know, let people walk in somebody's shoes, even if it's only for a few minutes, and understand or hear their questions, you know, and they kind of see things through their lenses. It's— there's nothing beats that really in helping people understand, okay, this is what their life is like.

Yeah.

Now I have a little bit more— you can build empathy much quicker if you actually understand You know, how— what is the life of somebody else? And then it, it helps connect those bridges in our minds and go, okay, well, now I know what it is. Now I understand how— now I can have empathy because I actually really understand what, what that means to that person.

Yeah, as long as you're creating a safe space. I know Undercover Boss was a fairly— is a fairly, uh, popular show on TV, which is sort of similar in that theme, that boss goes behind the scenes and kind of observes the rest of his staff and And gets, you know, some kind of feedback and input from, from that. But yeah, this would be taking it, um, several steps beyond that. Um, because yeah, we have a, we have a younger, more diverse workforce, and this is where we are moving as, as a people, as, as a, not only as a nation, but throughout the world. So, you know.

Right. This, it's planetary level at this point.

Absolutely doing it. Yeah, no, absolutely.

That's good. It's a good direction to be moving in for sure. Yeah, is there anything else? I know we're wrapping up here, so is there anything else that's on your mind you would love to share about the initiative?

Yeah, I can talk a little bit about kind of where we're at. Right now we are in the process of very close to having our first beta test product. We have several schools and organizations that have agreed to test our product because, you know, we, we're really excited about, about that phase. And, you know, after that, it's basically— Our intent is to create perhaps a Kickstarter campaign, rather, where we make the initial version of the game available to the public in a pre-order type scenario so that, again, we can get this out, you know, in a reasonable time frame. Where the intent is to make the game very affordable, it'll be $20 or less on the consumer market. We anticipate, Ian, that You know, in order to really serve communities around the world, that we're likely going to be donating the game. Because, you know, this— our ultimate desire is to get as many people playing the game. It's not so much about a— it's not a money-making campaign. This is a— this is really a— An act and a movement of love and of a desire to really open people's minds and hearts. to what diversity inclusion really means, right? And how beautiful it is, and how by embracing it, we embrace our differences, and then we become stronger as peoples, not, not weaker.

Yeah. But do you, do you see it as something that you're possibly gonna partner with schools and, and having it— you know, you mentioned partnering right now, but do you see that as like a long-term You know, getting it into schools and, you know, maybe even into part of the curriculum that schools offer or have.

Absolutely. And, and those are the kinds of conversations we've had with like charter schools, you know, schools that don't have as many limitations as public schools do. And again, nothing against public schools. You know, my, my daughter has gone to public school. I think it's great. We have nothing but incredible admiration for teachers. They are heroes in our minds, whether they're public, private, or otherwise. But yes, we really see the impact of our game being in school systems that, again, as more and more school systems, particularly on the public side, become more integrated, that— I don't want other parents to have to suffer through what my daughter went through. And every, every kid deserves to be respected and treated with decency regardless of their disability or who or what they are, what color they are, race or creed. And our hope is that by playing this game in the school systems, that some of those barriers will really be overcome.

Amazing. Well, I hope, I hope that it does. I hope it doesn't take too long and you're able to get in and your beta goes well. That would be great. I'll definitely be keeping an eye for your Kickstarter and see how you guys do.

Thank you.

For anybody that wants to, you know, look at what you guys are doing or follow you, you know, where can you be found for people interested?

We have a website, Ubuntu Game, that's ubuntu— can't see behind me— .com. Fill out— we have information or a page where you can send in your commentary or your questions.

Right.

We are, in the spirit of crowdsourcing, we have You know, much interest in getting as many diverse perspectives as possible in the true spirit of really crowdsourcing our knowledge base and this product. So if you have any interest in joining our journey, please don't hesitate, and we'd love to talk.

Amazing.

Well, thank you so much for your time. It was great having you you here and look forward to following, following up with you guys and seeing, seeing how it progresses.

All right, and great mission. And thank you, Ian, and thank you for having me on, and thank you for having the courage to have a listening for, you know, these kinds of projects. And, uh, we're very grateful. I'm very grateful to, to be here and to spend some time with you. So thanks, thanks again.

Appreciate it.

Hey everyone. Thank you for watching and listening to today's episode. It was great to have our guest on today and looking forward to having more of these interviews. Please like, share, subscribe, all the things we all know we can do. Without you guys helping to promote and grow, this show won't be as big as it can be. Our guests definitely appreciate any, any comments. Please leave us a comment. If you have any questions for them, feel free to reach out to them directly. Uh, we always put information in our show notes. You can check out there how to get a hold of them. Anything that we've mentioned in the episode, any links, things like that, they will be listed in those show notes. So take a look there and please like, share, subscribe, help us to grow this channel and help get more and more people interested. And that way we can have more guests that are sharing what you guys are wanting to hear about. And If there's anyone that you think that we should interview, that you think that I should talk to, please let us know in the comments, or you can of course message us directly. We're on all social media platforms. Let us know what you are thinking. You can contact me directly, Ian Peterman. I'm, I'm on social media as well as @PetermanFirm. We'll get you a hold of us.

I am—

My team, and we'll Be happy to take a look at what you would like us to talk about next. All right, thank you and appreciate it.

Thank you.