IP Mistakes That Cost Entrepreneurs Millions

Hello and welcome to the Conscious Design Podcast. I'm your host, Ian Peterman, and I help turn product ideas into sustainable 7-figure businesses. Join me for another episode where sustainability meets innovation and business savvy. Today, I'm really excited to have Heidi. She's a legal consultant with One World Intellectual Property. They're a leader in Helping global innovation in the Middle East and North Africa region protect their intellectual property. Welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me, Ian.

Absolutely. Well, I'm really excited to talk about, there's so many different nuances, right, for every region. And intellectual property is super important for anybody developing new technology and new things. To get things started, I'd love for you to just Kind of talk a little bit about One World. I know we've talked about it. I know about you guys. You guys have been in business for a while, done a lot of work, helped a lot of companies with their IP and, and things. But I'd love for you to just give a little idea for everyone who's listening what you guys do in the areas, and then let's dive into how you got started into IP.

Okay. So One World Intellectual Property is one of the biggest intellectual property firms in the Middle East. We started in 1964. We have offices in all Middle East countries, all Arab countries. We have direct offices. We're operating directly. We do or provide all services of intellectual property covering patent registration, copyrights registration, trademarks, and all kinds of intellectual property-related prosecution matters. Yeah, and we are one of the biggest intellectual property practitioners in the Middle East. So, this is a quick summary of what we do. For me, I started my practice in 2017 in Dubai, and then I relocated back to Egypt in 2019. And the intellectual property practices really has or have an international nature of practice. We have, like, in One World IP, we do not just stick to where we stay from where we operate. I mean, we do handle lots of international prosecution matters in different countries, so each and every one of the team has an international coverage of the intellectual property practice in general.

Right. And I think we've talked quite a bit. There's a lot of, right, Asia and US companies, right? A lot of companies that want to come to the region, they need their protections, right, in place. And so you're You work in that, helping other companies come to the region, but then also helping companies, those regions you have offices, get stuff out of the area.

Yes, exactly. So we do export like registrations because people from the Middle East would like to expand outside the Middle East and vice versa. Of course, most of our work is just like companies starting to work in the Middle East or already have businesses going on. They want a correct or a solid strategy for all their IP assets to be registered in the best way so that they can exploit it, they can franchise it, and they can also protect it. Like, you know, it's everywhere in the world now. There is intellectual property piracy, if we may call it this, if we may call it, you know, this name, and everyone's copying everyone. So you would have to have a strong IP strategy that covers your business. 10 years ahead.

Right. And so I'd love for you to get into, because everywhere has a little bit of different rules, right? In terms of, I work with clients that try mostly based on the US, but they're trying to launch products in other countries. That's when they start to realize that, oh, you know, a utility patent isn't quite the same in a different region. Design patents, those are a little bit different. Could you talk to how you guys in those regions qualify or compare to, I guess, other regions and what those mean?

I mean, of course, some differences and, you know, the practice is not, it's pretty much the same everywhere around the world. The differences lies in how the examination process works and the timings and each country's internal practice. How, what's, what do they refuse? What do they accept? And how do you actually apply the application? How do you do the paperwork if there's paperwork in this country? So here lies the technical importance where you have to have a solid practitioner or a practitioner who has an eye for each country where from the practice, I mean, from the eye where the asset itself or from the intellectual property came from. For example, you're from the US. I would have to have some idea about how the US law and the US system works so that I understand what the client wants from me in my country. So, this is how it works. There are differences in the timing. So, when we have clients expecting us, for example, the filing takes a little bit more time in some countries and it's shorter as well in some other countries. So, when we have a client, they would expect a specific timing for their intellectual property to be covered, whether it's a patent, whether it's an industrial design or a trademark, and they get surprised when We tell them, no, it's going to take, for example, 14 months for the examinee, for the application itself to be examined. So this initially wasn't, or is not their plan, but then they don't have a full idea or they don't, as I said, the practice is different. So the timings are different, directly affects your investment and your ideology in this specific country.

So from a company standpoint, if you are thinking about getting into one of the regions that you guys work in primarily, What would be the longest? Like, obviously you have to plan ahead, but we kind of know if you're a US company, right? You know the US standard timeframe to get your protection in place. How soon should someone start talking to someone like you, reaching out to you and say, we want to launch the project or product in Egypt, for example, right? How early do they need to start working with you guys in order to make sure that they actually have that in place before they put the product out?

Okay. Egypt is one of the, you longest, uh, constitutional countries. I think not the longest, but we have a long process for the acceptance and the examination. There are other countries as well which are very, very short in the process, such as UAE, such as Saudi Arabia, Qatar as well. But Egypt would take, I would say, just 1 or 2 years ahead. And it depends on the type of the IP, if it's an industrial design or if it's a trademark, if there's a likelihood of rejection by the examiner. You know, we would do our study for the project you send us or for the idea you send us, and then we're going to design a specific strategy to protect the trademark and then the design. And then we would put a timeframe for each type of IP. And ideally, it's like 2 years or 1 year ahead, depends on the type of the trademark. And of course, if you expect a rejection by the examiner or um, the trademark office or the patent office, this would take more than this timeframe. But in other countries, it's only 3 months ahead, 1 year ahead.

Okay, that's very fast. You can't even do that in the US. That's very quick.

Yeah, the timings are really different. Depends on the country, the system, and everything.

And so when you're doing that, are there— because like in the EU has a pretty connected partnership, you can kind of get Once you get in one, you cover the area. Are there any networks like that where you can submit? Because I know certain countries have some reciprocity with each other where you can submit and then it's not a full filing necessarily, but it's more like, hey, I have a patent over here. Will you accept it? Is there anything like that strategy-wise that you're able to take advantage of?

I mean, there is a federal law in the GCC. Which the law says that if you protect your intellectual property in one country, the protection falls into the other countries. But you cannot fully depend on this because, you know, if someone else files an actual filing in the other country, this takes away your advantage from the federal law. So because the local law prevails on the federal law. So this is something you can take advantage of when you prove like a prior usage or, for example, bad faith. So the federal law in the GCC is, we do take advantage of this when it comes to actual legal battles and, or not legal battles, you can say even it's prosecutorial matters before the examinations or the offices itself. So this is very useful.

Got it. You know, everyone has their ideas of how strong, right, patent law is per country. I think we've talked about people don't really think that patents in China are very Very strong, right? There's that, there's that kind of idea. How, I guess, where does the MENA region sit in that of how legally enforceable, how strong of a patent do you have? I know you said that the GCC federal is, it's there, but can be overturned by more local, but kind of how would you working globally, how would you kind of rank the strength?

The strength of intellectual property protection and enforcement in most of the countries is really good, but also it depends on the country. I mean, for Egypt, for example, we have the oldest intellectual property laws in the region. Enforcement is really good. We have lots of cases. The intellectual property practice is something which is known in Egypt, not like other countries. You wouldn't see lots of IP offices, you wouldn't see lots of IP prosecutions, the cases and infringements, but Egypt is very active. Also Saudi Arabia, Dubai, of course, or the United Arab Emirates. Qatar is, is strong. Bahrain as well.

Is it usually more strong if you have a lot of cases already? You kind of have this body of cases to reference to and go, hey, this is one, this is not. I'm guessing that that probably helps it be more strong.

Of course it helps. Yes.

There you go.

You have the whole idea when you have like, when it goes back in time, the enforced, laws and their enforcement, you would find a very open, like, land for intellectual property practice in general. But as I told you, there are countries who have actual war zones in the Middle East, and even in the war zones, companies are interested to protect their IP assets because at the end, like, the investments are never stopping and you have to enforce your rights in one way or another. Surprisingly, The areas where we were or the areas in war zone, we find also like the intellectual property protection is still ongoing and expanding.

I wouldn't put that very high in a war zone priority list of things that you would be worried about, but—

Obviously, but I mean, this is something that's going on, but other than these countries, you would have like GCC, which is thriving in the IP right now. Like we've talked about China. The Chinese applications and all kinds of IP is like rising very— you could see the statistics of the Chinese applications going really high, which is impressive. Like all of a sudden each year you would see more and more and more of IP companies starting to file, even not for actual projects that are in hand, like for the future projects or something that they're planning ahead. So this is really proactive. I see that this is something which means that we're going to have like lots of Chinese investments in the future as well.

Right. You're seeing this leading, I guess you'd call it a leading indicator of they're starting to file. A lot of Chinese companies are starting to file outside of China for future technology, not just something that they're already producing. But they're really reaching into the future and trying to protect things that they're developing and haven't launched yet.

Yes.

That's awesome. That means, means more stuff is getting developed. So you said China's doing that more. Is there any other regions, I guess, any other areas that are really growing inside of like out trying to get more patents in, in GCC and MENA area?

I mean, the Belt and Road countries mainly. You can like, they are the countries which are on the Belt and Road, Silk Road, I think it's the historical name of the road where China is trying to like strengthen their relationship with the countries on the Belt and Road. On the map, you can see it stretches from China until the Middle East. So all the countries on this line, they are expanding their filings and protection, doing strategies for the future 10 years ahead. Expanding their, like when you have a project, you would have to launch it like first phase, second phase, third phase with the trademarks and the patents and industrial designs involved. So yes, this is what's happening with China.

Well, that makes sense. And is there anybody else that's doing that right now, kind of really pushing their IP? Obviously China is, but I guess, do you see an influx of any other regions right now?

I mean, I haven't divided it or I haven't noticed a specific Pacific region which is thriving, such as China. I mean, this is also extracted from the World Intellectual Property Organization charts. You would find that this is public information. You would find it on the international charts online. So you would see like other regions, it depends on the year, but China, I mean, the rise is, is something—

they stick out.

Yeah, sticking out. Yeah, that's the word.

Got it. And how are, you know, looking at The Middle East region, I know there's different areas are more active and it seems like Dubai is one of those areas where definitely a huge amount of growth of kind of, I guess we'd call homegrown IPO, more local development. Is that starting to, are there any other regions that are growing quickly? I mean, I think Dubai is probably at the top still in growth.

I mean, definitely Saudi Arabia is trying to compete with Dubai right now. So it's another— I don't have a rating for which is first and which is second, but they are both parallel when it comes to the size of investments. I mean, Saudi Arabia has been participating in lots of international treaties and hosting lots of international agreements to be made in Saudi Arabia, which is related to intellectual property. It's lately changing the scope of intellectual property practice in general. If you just Google the SIPE, the Saudi Authority for Intellectual Property would see, the size of their international participation is getting really impressive. So this is something else, you know, because also this has thrived so fast. So this is parallelly like affecting the prosecution and the legal battles that's happening in the intellectual property field. So everyone is trying to, you know, take advantage of what's happening and quickly filing other people's trademark in the region or patents. So there you go. Also the industrial designs as well. So you would see a big number of intellectual property cases before the Saudi courts nowadays. And also all the GCC is actually thriving when it, in terms of investment lately. So also in terms of IP protection and all the related battles.

Hey, it's Ian here. So glad you're enjoying this episode of Conscious Design. If you want the full scoop on Conscious Design, what it is, how we do it, how you can do it, then check out our book. We wrote it so creative entrepreneurs like you can code social and environmental responsibility right into your brand's DNA. You can download the first chapter for free. Link is in the description. Enjoy the rest of the episode. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and share. So it's also, you're talking about people that, there's also people jumping in and filing things that for other people's trademarks kind of, and jumping in. It's an area that people should be looking at just to protect their own IP filing before somebody else nags it in some way.

Of course. I mean, you have the internet now. It's relatively easier even to consult people, like do a consultation. If you have like a plan in 10 years to launch in one of the GCC countries, one of the MENA region countries, do it. a quick consultation with an intellectual property practitioner, check the systems to see if someone else has filed your intellectual property or filed something that's lookalike of your IP, you know, assets so that you have a proactive step because like in 10 years you can find like you've totally completely lost something that's been making you money. I mean, this reflects even to your country of origin because they might expand so big in the region and this is constantly happening. This is nothing— Something that's like, I'm not making this up. This is actual cases that's happening in the region. All areas of practice, confectionery, all kinds of manufacturing. You would see it in hotels, for example, resorts. When you have a big resort in the US and you would find another resort which is launched in Dubai and expanding all of a sudden to be even a bigger name other than the one In the US. So there you go, you start there and it never ends.

Yes, never, never ends.

Yeah.

And you've mentioned the industrial design patents, you've just mentioned trademarks. What are the different categories that are available in that area?

All kinds of IP protection. I mean, categories, you mean types of IP?

I'll use the US. We have copyright, trademark, utility patents, and design patents, and they Kind of everything can fit into one of those 4 buckets. That really covers, for the most part, everything that you can do.

It's the same, but the difference is only in the practice itself, the timing, the laws, the enforceability of each type of IP is different. The main, one of the big differences between the US and the Middle East is in terms of the applications. You know, the applications are patented in the US, but this is not patented at all in the MENA region. Applications are filed as copyrights. There's lots of disputes in this specific part because, you know, copyrights hold a great amount of flexibility, not like patents. I mean, if you— there is fair use concept in the copyrights. I mean, you can add to the prior art, but of course, in the patent side, there's not this much flexibility. So there you go. This is a big difference that's causing also lots of difference in the practice itself and like applications like calling for removing other or battling other applications. But the practice here in the MENA region holds lots of flexibility, not like the US.

Okay, so a little bit more flexible. Sounds like a good benefit then if you use it properly, can be a really good Really good benefit.

If you see it that way, of course. Or yeah, and there is also a website, the cybersquatting in the trademark, when someone copies or a famous trademark and registers it as a website. And the website can be like a .com or .sa, the country, or .eg, depends on the type of the website itself. This determines the way of canceling this cybersquatting. It's called cybersquatting because you're abusing a type of intellectual property by another form of protection. The website itself does not have to be an identical copy of the trademark. So it can be, for example, xy.1.com. So there you go. If XY is a famous trademark, then this is cybersquatting.

So the best way with that is you get your trademark, but then you also should get the domain. Like that, you kind of have to get both then to really protect. If you want to make sure you're covered, you need to get both, cover your bases.

There is actually, not related to cybersquatting, but there's actually, I've mentioned before in the beginning of the podcast that there are lots of trademarks that got wasted in the Middle East or other people took advantage of how famous they are and they actually managed to register it. A very funny example, which you can relate to, is, you know, Chick-fil-A. Yes, we have in Egypt Chicken Fila, one of the very famous chains in Egypt. So you would have this Chick-fil-A was not launched in Egypt, so they're not my client. So this is why I'm able to disclose it. But this is something that's going on in the market, so you'll see it a lot.

That's a loss. They they could have grabbed that. You were mentioning before investment levels. I'm curious how those are. tied together as you're seeing, and it sounds like they are. You're seeing a huge rise in IP getting filed, especially you said UAE areas, and they're competing to buy. Do you see that as IP has started and now the money is coming in, or are they kind of just both together? They're just rising.

It has to be both together. I mean, the investments are rising, so the importation of the IP is happening and the importation of other projects because of the investments that are happening. The franchising is going on really well. Everyone is franchising even if they're not directly investing in the UAE, like the GCC, the whole GCC market. So the rise is parallel. I mean, when you have this, you have that as well.

Obviously we have a lot of, you know, sustainable companies that listen to this and Middle East is often oil comes to mind, but how is sustainable brands, sustainable projects? Those seem to also be on the rise from what I've seen, but I'd love to get your kind of take on how that fits into the region and IP and all of that that you've seen.

I mean, the sustainability is a global trend. I understand it's something that facilitates your IP. Lots of laws have inserted facilitations to the sustainable products, but in the Middle East, we're still backdated in this specific part when it intersects with IP. I mean, this is something that's independent than IP, you understand? So the IP protection is something else than the sustainable products itself. I mean, it can, it has to be related to each other, I understand, but the laws are not very much aligning with the sustainable trends. Which is happening around the world.

That makes sense.

But the countries itself really facilitates other stuff related to the investments when it comes to sustainability in general. But this is separate than IP. There is not enough facilitation for products or that are sustainable, or I believe there should be a gap. You know, there should be a gap in this. You have to have like a faster track for sustainable products when it comes to IP for industrial designs and patents, this will definitely thrive as well in the upcoming years. Because you would see, if you would read about lots of projects being planned by SAIP and by lots of governmental authorities related to this sustainability trends, but right now we don't have it.

You're saying the project, basically the projects are happening, the investment side, people are investing in it, nobody has changed or created a fast tracker or something to help accelerate that on the IP side. It's still, IP is, is what it is and it's just staying, staying the way it is. But people are, you know, those, those types of things, the region is, is growing in that area. This has been super, super informative. And I would love to just ask kind of the blanket question, is there anything that you've worked with A lot of different companies in different countries. Is there anything that you would recommend someone who, like, what your recommendation to do in general for someone that is, if a company is wanting to get into the region, what are the top things that they should think about? Obviously talk to you, but what are the things that somebody should think about as in protecting their IP and being able to come to that market in a successful way that they don't end up being a Chicken fillet and losing out on that.

In order to start in the Middle East, you'd have to understand that each culture is different and also the cultural perspectives do affect IP in a way or another. You would have to understand that, for example, there are some things that get rejected in the Middle East that get accepted in other countries, such as the protection of alcoholics. For example, some countries in the Middle East does not allow protection for alcoholic beverages, but some countries do allow it. So if you have this type of products, you would have to reconsider the filing strategies that you would do in the Middle East. And this applies to other types of practices as well. For example, also the translation or transliteration effects, and I'm talking from the trademark perspective now, the transliteration, for example, Meta had lots of IP struggles and had to invest a lot because they did not do their homework right when it comes to the transliteration and the translation of their trademark because Meta actually means death in some countries and translates to other meanings in other languages. So they face lots of struggles when it comes to this because the laws prohibit the registration of anything which is contrary to the public morals. So they considered death one of the contrary to public norms words. Also, some countries do tend to reject, for example, any trademarks that has religious meanings. This is directly mentioned in laws. For example, the words heavenly, God, cross, and everything that falls under this bracket would most likely be rejected by trademark examiners. In the patent scope as well as the industrial design scope, there are also some restrictions which are only in some countries. So here falls the importance of the practice itself. So in simple words, if anyone wants to launch their project or have a plan to launch their project in the upcoming years, I would say that You had to consult with an intellectual property expert, do your homework online and check the scope of, or your trademark in these countries and do an official trademark search, which will reveal if anyone else has tried to file your trademark, do the official search in terms of industrial design, filing trademark if you're planning to launch in the upcoming 10 years so that it's a proactive filing. Because most of the MENA region countries are first-to-file countries.

Okay. So they do follow the first-to-file. I remember the US changed to first-to-file and that was a big, a big shift in, in strategy, how you, how you thought about things. So that's good. That's good to know. That's, that's super helpful. And I think it's great that you, you know, pointing out the cultural side. If you don't understand it, you can go in there and you don't think about words and their meanings. And when you have a bunch of different languages, you're definitely going to get some different interpretations of what that collection of letters means. And not everybody likes that. That's not— it doesn't fit. It changes the meaning drastically. Yes.

And it can be that it means nothing. I mean, the collection of letters itself can indicate something else which can be rejected by the Trademark Office or the examiner. So it's really not complicated, but it happens. You wouldn't want that in your project because definitely the registration process is not cheap. So you wouldn't want to risk it.

Yeah. Or spend 2 years and then get rejected because you didn't look up the meaning, the meaning of the word. That would be, you should avoid that.

I mean, ChatGPT is also there now, so it's a little bit facilitating this kind of stuff. You can use it, you can check the different words' meaning in other different cultures, different languages. Even Arabic countries do have this between each other, you know, one word can mean another meaning in other countries. So we face it a lot, even in the same area.

Yeah, that's a lot of complexity, especially if you're not from the region and you don't know. And I think US companies probably have I think one of the worst kind of, I guess, built-in thought process, because we're a pretty good-sized region and the 2 countries that border us, they all speak English. So it's a pretty, pretty easy, right? It's a large population, all close, that words generally mean the same thing for everyone. And that's not the case in most other areas, right? It's, you know, Yeah. Middle East has many, many different languages. It's not just one. There's lots of versions to it. So it's something that I, I think US companies are probably the least practiced in it. So we just don't have to, we don't have to think about, you know, a different, the next state over being a different language. We just go, it's all English. We're just going to walk, keep going.

This is definitely something positive for me. I have more cases.

Yes. Yes, it'll keep you guys busy for a very long time. We'll definitely be doing that. Yes. To wrap up, I would love for people to know where best to reach out to you guys. I know you guys, you guys handle everything, so that part is easy, but where best to reach out to you guys, connect with you, and work with you guys on their projects?

I mean, directly through our website, you can reach out to whichever you want to in all of the countries. The website is so easy, it will direct you to the country and to the person you want to talk to. Even all our information is publicly, um, disclosed on the website. You can contact anyone you want. And also, I trust that you're gonna put my email down the— or below.

So there will be links for everyone in the description.

Yes, or even directly reach out to us. Everyone is on LinkedIn. Of course, this is how I believe we got to speak with each other.

Yes, yes.

Yeah, it's very easy. And you would meet One World, like, if someone from the intellectual property field is listening to this podcast, One World is participating in pretty much all of the international conferences that's happening. Even in the US, we do participate directly. We do have booths in the IP conferences, which is happening All along the year. And yeah, we would make sure to answer you in a timely manner.

Wonderful. Sounds good. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to share about IP and the region. And this has been great. Thank you.

Thank you, Ian. Happy to speak with you and happy to be on your show.

And that wraps up another episode of the Conscious Design Podcast. If today's episode inspired you to bring your product idea to life and turn it into a sustainable 7-figure business, Visit petermanfirm.com or click the link below. Your ideas have the power to change the world, and we're here to help make that happen. Thank you for joining us, and I'll see you on the next episode.