Pioneering Sustainable Personal Protective Equipment with Beau Wangtrakuldee

Hello and welcome to this episode of Conscious Design. I'm your host, Ian Peterman, an author of the Conscious Design book. And today I have Bhuwang Charkuldi. She's the co-founder and CEO of Amor Sui, which makes sustainable PPE. Welcome to the show.

Hi, Ian.

Everybody loves a good origin story. What got you into tackling personal protective equipment and lab coats, things like that? What got you to get into that?

Well, Ian, I saw firsthand the gap in the PPE and safety market. I am a PhD material scientist and chemist by training. My background is that I have worked in the laboratory space for over a decade. And one day when I was still finishing all my PhDs, I was in a chemical spill accident where my own PPE, my lab coat, did not protect me when the time comes. What happened is I have chemicals that come onto my body. It literally just went straight through my lab coat without even any protections at all. So my legs and my arms, uh, was burned as a result and kind of put me out of commission for several weeks. And, Ian, after just being unable to find better products after I come back to work, I really did some research into why that is. I think it feels bizarre to me that things that should protect people does not protect people, and it's so hard to find product that actually do that. What I realized is there's a huge gap in the PPE industry in a way that the people who's selling it does not care about the quality. They only care about selling as many cheap items as they can, and the rest of the manufacturer support and enable them to be able to do that. So from that point on, I really see the gap of better products. And that kind of led us into the companies today that focus on not just only better products, but also products that are better for the environment.

I'm sorry that you had to go through that, but for anyone to go through that and then you're coming out with better products, I think that's the best outcome. One could hope for going through that because you're, I would imagine you're by no means the first person to have their equipment fail. It sounds like Because if it went right through, that sounds like it wasn't matched. I don't work in a lab. I've worked in clean rooms, but I always imagined that they would match the personal protective equipment to, you know, whatever chemical that you're dealing with to actually protect you.

Yeah. And in fact, when I first started out my business, what really encouraged me to take on starting a new venture, I know when people are starting a new business, it's such a scary place to be. Like, why would I do this? Why would I spend this time? Why would I spend my own money? Like, what is your conviction to put your time, your life, and your labor into working on something that doesn't exist before? And my first initial conviction was from lunches with my girlfriends who work in the lab. There's a bunch of labs that in the same floor and we have one lunchroom. And there is this group of my women's friends who get together. There's like about a dozen of us that get in a circle and kind of eat lunch together. Out of curiosity, one day I was telling them, hey, a few years ago I had this experience. You know, I was burned in a lab because my lab coat just completely did not work. Like, it just burned completely through. Have you guys ever experienced something like that? To my surprise, maybe not surprise, every single one of them has said something about getting hurt or having to face an accident because the lab coat was too big or something. And that caused them to be injured in the lab one way or the other. And it really provided me a conviction what the idea that I have in my head a few years ago, and at the time there's still no products for it, that it should become something that's really important in protecting people's lives.

It's protective equipment. It's in the name. It should actually do that, right? So you mentioned a couple of things that your product is addressing and you guys are launching, you have a lab coat. Correct. That's your—

That's correct.

Product. Makes sense. Lab coat needs to work. You mentioned, you know, sustainability, which is something that's— the pandemic really opened people's eyes to how unsustainable and not eco-friendly all of this equipment is. I mean, we saw— I was living in LA at the time. There's so many masks. You start, you know, 6 months in, the mask trash alone was Massive. So you're looking at sustainability, which we're all a little bit more aware of now, but also how well it works. And you just mentioned things like fitting. So what are all the areas that you're able to improve? It sounds like current lab coats and things like that are not really well made at all. What are the areas you're able to improve on?

Yeah, I think when reimagining the product, For our company and brands, we focus on 3 categories and buckets. One would be performance, safety performance. Like you said, you know, if PPE does not protect, what is it used for, right? Second is exactly what you said, functionality. It means fit and, you know, like any other functionality that would make the life of the people who's wearing it easier. And the third piece is about sustainability. And we kind of grew up from being a company that focused on the first 2 buckets first, which is performance and also functionality. But through the pandemic, it really allowed us to see that there are so many opportunities in increasing the sustainability piece of PPE as well. The pandemic, what it teaches us and allows us to get into quickly is getting into healthcare space. It allowed me to see that 80% of the product in PPE, especially in healthcare used today, are disposable. It's a one-time use. You use it once, you throw it in the trash can, and most of them will end up in the landfill because they become hazardous waste. And you're thinking about the cycle of creating those products that one-time use, go in the trash can. You use a lot of resources, you use a lot of industrial toxins to create one thing that will end up in the landfill for 400 years to come. A really scary fact about disposable PPE, like disposable gowns, there are over 22 billion isolation gowns used in the US every year, and that will become tons and tons and tons of just hazardous waste in a landfill, basically plastic. And so now, you know, our product focuses on performance, functionality, and sustainability. So you may have heard the 3 Rs in terms of sustainability. I think reduce, reuse, recycle. We have also been thinking in that mindset. Of course, if you make a better quality product, you're going to reduce the number of times you create something and have to throw away and pick up another one. You know, a really good example, not PPE, it's like a disposable, like, plastic plate versus the one that you can use at home. You can rinse and wash it over and over again. So by having better products, you will reduce the amount of waste and product that need to create it. Second is reusability. And with PPE, that creates a little bit complications because like personal protective equipment that need to deliver upfront protection. For example, if you have a lab coat or isolation gown, they need to be fluid repellent. And if we claim that you can reuse it for 100 washes, it means that all those protective performance has to need that level of protection every time during those 100 washes. And those are complications in terms of product design, but at the same time, it's also our moat of business because it's really hard for people to replicate it done correctly, right? And the third piece is recyclability of the products. And when you design a product, there are certain things that make it recyclable. It needs to not be made of a certain material that's too flimsy, that you can't chemically break down or shred or anything. To be able to recycle back to the raw material form that it could be used for different applications. The material that go into each part of like whether it's the trims, the zipper, whatever it is, has to be made sustainably in a way that it could be repurposed in some way, shape, or form. So those are a lot of things that go into our product design because the quality, because the reusability, And the recyclability, that's how it's made more sustainable than disposable products or other reusable products in the market.

So your products are able to be, to be reused, then people responded to that, right? Because I actually worked on some products in the dental space. And one of the things that came up was people trying to do something more sustainable and reusable. There we had some pushback in thinking, oh, it's not clean, right? Because it's really easy to go, oh, this is brand new. No one's ever touched it. It's brand new and you throw it away and it's always brand new. And that kind of seems to be one of the things that we think makes something clean, even though it was in a factory. Like, there's all kinds of ways it could not be clean. How has that gone? What has been the response? And correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels like that's a little bit of a psychology thing where people have this mental thing going, oh, it's— I need it to be brand new to be clean. Yes.

Yes, yes, really bizarre. And I have strong thoughts about that. But to answer your direct questions is that show is better than tell. We did case study, we did testing in the lab, go through different washes, you know, apply infectious disease or microbe to show that not only that our product is fluid repellent, but Things doesn't grow on it if you clean it based on our instruction. And the partner that we will work with, we would either work with our enterprise partner, or we have medical laundry vendors that will work and follow our guidelines of cleaning. If they've done it correctly, there wouldn't— there shouldn't be questions if they're— if it will deliver upon infectious control or not.

Right.

So show rather than tell, it's always better. That's being one. The second piece is there are so many studies that's done that show that 90% of our disposable gowns today doesn't even meet like fluid repellent, infectious like repellent, meaning if you spray something on a disposable gown, the whole liquid would just go through.

So it's not a barrier. Basically.

That's correct. That's correct.

It just looks like a barrier. It doesn't.

That's correct.

Wow.

So just because something is coming out of a plastic bag or coming out like completely new, you put it on, like if someone has a blood spill on you or someone cough on you, all those diseases gonna get in your scrub and you're gonna take it everywhere with you.

Hey, it's Ian here. So glad you're enjoying this episode of Conscious Design. If you want the full scoop on Conscious Design, what it is, how we do it, how you can do it, then check out our book. We wrote it so creative entrepreneurs like you can code social and environmental responsibility right into your brand's DNA. You can download the first chapter for free. Link is in the description. Enjoy the rest of the episode. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and share. Well, that means you're— then it's not keeping the patient from everybody else that you've come in contact with.

Spreading it around. Yes. Wow.

That's bad.

You know, there's an argument that our product have done well in a case study that showed that. But second piece is also show that the disposable product out to the current frequently being used product actually would not protect you in any way, shape, or form.

Wow. That's crazy. I would never guess that because of, I guess, marketing. They've done a good job marketing it.

It's also what you said, right? It's a people mindset. I'm so surprised by this, that people might say they're used to using disposable product. They think this is clean, that it will protect them. This is the best practice for— I don't know, like since we changed from textile to disposable product, this is the best practice. Some people, when they got our product, we got the same questions that you have as an initial part. And at the same time, they said, this looks too nice. Can it actually protect us?

Really?

Looks too nice? It looked too nice. Yeah, it looked too nice.

I mean, looking nice is a good thing. That's—

Yeah, well, they just get used to the way that they are. And I think the huge piece of us as a company and the brand is not only make great product, but has to be able to communicate and educate both consumer decision maker and developers. The progressions of our new lines of product, which is circular products, we have been developing new line of product for the past 2 years. We are just getting on to the next phase of the business, which is awareness, increasing awareness and education. A piece of that is to differentiate ourselves from others in the market, whether it's a look and feel, it's our mission, but that and what we stand for in terms of vision going forward. And so I think especially with the PP industry and especially in healthcare, There's so much opportunities to create a product that empower people to deliver the best work. I feel like healthcare has been burned out, they call it, and they feel like they are in a sterile and such a soulless environment. They're just there to care for other people and just getting through the day rather than really having human connections and really caring to the patients the way that they imagined it would be. And PPE is such one of those things where people tell them, you put this on, I tell you so, you better do this, this is how it's going to be. We try to change the script with PPE and our company and also people's decision to be able to select the best product they will be proud to put it on. And deliver the best care to patients. So I think with that branding and messages, it would empower people to help tell others about us, including our sustainability focus.

Hmm, really smart way to go about it. It's a totally different space, but it works.

When you think about others in the market, this is so generic, sterile, no face. Space, PPE, any PPE look the same. Any PPE come from China, and then you just buy from the supplier. There's no face to a name, or there's no brand trust in the market of what the quality is. And we want to change that perspective.

It's all the same. There's no—

like if you go ask someone like, oh, what's the best lab coat brand is? What is the best medical gowns brand is? No one would tell you anything. They'll just say, oh, we just buy it from Cardinal Helmet line online, Amazon. It's all the same. It's all come from China, look the same, feel the same generic sterile product. We just want to not only put the face to the name, but just bring a little bit warm into the healthcare sector where the people who is putting our product on and deliver cares to patients. Feel a little bit better about themselves and protect themselves, and then also protect their patients in that way.

Right. That's part of the trust too, right? If you, if I just entered the medical field, I would have no brand trust. I would just go, it's a, it's a thing. There's no name behind it. It's, it's not like I know that brand is going to give me a product that'll actually protect me. So it's kind of just like you said, it's, I'm putting it on because the boss says so. I have to keep the job. I got to wear it. Not because I'm like, oh, this will take care of me. I know it's going to do what it's supposed to do.

Yeah.

That's so—

And I think it will also help with compliance, right? If someone is willing to put it on instead of, I put it on right now, my boss is around the corner, then I can take it off.

Right. Yeah. I'm sure that there's plenty of that. Any job I've worked, there was required equipment. If you hated it, yeah, when the boss is around, you probably don't wear it. It's not, you know, you just, because you don't like it, it doesn't, it makes you uncomfortable while you're working. So I'd imagine that's probably a big, would be a big benefit, your brand going, oh, I actually like, I want to put the coat on.

At this stage of business, it's about how could we build a brand where people are proud to wear? and proud to talk about to help spread the message. It starts with great product, but we root in sustainability that the more a product is told and adapted, then the more sustainability impact we are going to make in the market.

Yeah. Well, absolutely. And I love the fact that you're blending all these things together. And it's unfortunate in one way, nobody even tried to do any of this, but You're now entering the market and going, yeah, we actually need to do this so we can make something that works, that's sustainable. And it's already 2 things above it if you make it function, right? Fit and all those other areas. 'Cause in at least the jobs I've worked in, like in clean rooms and stuff, nothing ever fits really well. It's always horrible.

Yeah.

Except for that one person that magically was the same size as their fit model. They're like, all right, you lucked out, that actually fits you.

Well, the rest of us are stuck. Do you know why that is?

No.

I look into this a little bit more. Majority of PPE in the market are fit based on Caucasian European male size.

So that's one thing. There's a bunch of other sizes.

Yeah, so whatever that is that they had it in the beginning, that is the current standard sizing. So if you're a woman, forget it. If you're a smaller woman, forget it. Those are not made for you. In the industry where 80% of healthcare are women, it's kind of mind-boggling that no one has really worked on it before. Yeah, the second piece about that is what I shared with you before, the people who sell the product and get the feedback from customer could care less about what customer is saying about the product. You know, like these are suppliers that sell PPE along with 1,000 other products. And the manufacturer is just feeding into them. And so it's really hard to innovate on the product function and comfort and performance because they just want to keep selling the same thing without having more margins on making better products and things like that. It makes sense from a business perspective, but it doesn't make sense from a human perspective at all.

Somewhere and you just order it and nobody looking at the tag, oh, this is a really good brand. We like this one. It's just. We get it from some brand. So there's no, there isn't that brand accountability in this equipment space, which is, it's mind-boggling to me because I primarily work in with brands that are in the space where if you mess up, everybody knows.

Yeah.

The next person on, or next brand on Twitter that's getting absolutely destroyed because you messed up. So there's a higher risk. They have to produce a better product, more so than if you're able to hide, which is crazy to me, but it's great. You're, you know, you're taking that up and going, yeah, we actually want you to know who makes our product. It's us, which is great. So looking forward, I know you're starting with the lab coat, multiple sizes. You have men's and women's. You're actually providing some size options. What are you, you know, looking down the road though, what is your ultimate goal? Are you wanting to really Kind of broaden this and be able to cover a lot more different equipment? What can we look forward to in the next few years as your brand grows?

Yeah, as I shared with you, we really believe in the vision of better, fewer products, meaning that we're doing a lab coat now. We might be doing another iterations of it or maybe, you know, another version of it. But there won't be a lot. That would just be a really high-quality product that you can come back over and over again. But we are currently extending it. We have a product roadmap that will be launching in April and through the end of this year that include different levels of fluid repellent and also waterproof isolation gowns and also fire-resistant protection clothing. So those are already in the pipeline to launch with our website this year. And for future outlook, I think that product is just a piece of it. I think that, as I share with you, the whole industry for PPE and medical supply is broken. And it's, I think it's a sales channel, you know, it's built for sell one-time use things and throw away. And I think the wholesale channel has to be in that. So we actually working on a way to make people be able to buy things in a circular manner, not just a product, but then also can we partner with logistics who could clean our product, reprocessing our product in a circular manner, put it back to hospital in a rental manner. So it allows people who use disposable product to use our reusable product easier. And we also looking at partner who will do a take-back program. Easily and capture all those data around sustainability impact. I think overall, it's not just the product itself, but the full circular manner that will kind of invent this industry in a way toward more circular economy.

I think it's an important thing, and people often overlook that. They go, oh, here's my very sustainable product, but they— you got to think through the whole part to make it sustainable. Otherwise, In the trash, I guess.

There's no adoption. Yes.

I love the idea of being able to actually reuse it, actually be able to recycle it, or cleaning. I think there's a lot of use for that. I'm excited to see where you guys go from there. I think there's, there's a lot, there's a lot you can fix with these ideas, tackling this problem and actually going—

And there's different categories. I'm not sure if we are, we feel like we are innovators and we want to bring partners on in this. We don't want to take over every single piece of the sun because I feel like that would take us forever to get to the point where this will be impactful globally in a broader sense. So we hope to bring more partners by enabling the system, the circular e-commerce system or circular commerce system to make it easier to bring on a partner on different types of categories.

You tackling the infrastructure part, right? If you have That in place. I've actually been having a lot of conversations about this with people, is one of the big blockers to sustainable products is the backend. All the stuff nobody really sees that make— that closes the loop. You got to close it. And if you don't have that, then I could design a billion super sustainable products that won't be sustainable because there's no system to actually close the loop.

Yes.

So I think as you're— I love tackling that because it's such a blocker for anybody else, right? It's— Yeah.

It's like, yeah, anyone working on sustainability, you can't just be a product company. You have to think through the whole system.

Yes. It's systems thinking, which is— we like to ignore that right now. That's how we got here. So I love that you guys are— you're really going after the system and how you can improve that. And you also happen To make a product as an example, I think that's really big is showing people, right? If you're able to be successful with it, if you're able to build the infrastructure, proving everybody who might think it's too hard or not possible, you're just going, yeah, well, we did it. You're showing how you're doing it with your product in general. You're showing here, hey, this is done. It's here. Now come up with some more products, use our system, which I love.

Yeah.

Amazing. Before we wrap up, I just wanted to— anything else you want to share? And then also, how can people find you guys? I know your website's up and you're— but you're launching the product soon. Where can people find you?

Yes. I mean, we would appreciate anyone who's listened here to tell your friends, or if you're using lab coat or isolation gowns or fire-resistant clothing in table form, to check us out. Our website is www.amorsui.com. It's A-M-O-R-S-U-I, www.amorsui.com. Our Instagram, it's @amorsuiclothing, amorsuiclothing.com. We also on LinkedIn and Twitter, but we more active on Instagram right now. But, you know, just share the word about us if you don't use PPE, but I'm sure there's someone in your life that wear a lab coat or isolation gowns, and I think they could be better protected. And then also we could also improve on the health of our planet together.

Amazing. Well, thank you so much for your time, Bo. I really appreciate you being on the show and sharing what you guys are doing. And I'm, I'm really excited to see how the next few years you guys can hopefully really shake up this industry.

Sounds good. I'm happy to stay in touch, and thank you so much for the opportunity.

Hey there, thanks for joining us for this episode. I hope that you're enjoying the content we're putting out. If you're looking for more ways to learn about this, to get involved, create your own consciously designed products, there's a couple ways that you can do that. First is our book Conscious Design, which you'll find a link to in the description of this episode. Please check that out. Go over quite a bit of information, what the process is, how I've applied it to product design, and some really great examples of companies out there that are doing really great work, some of whom you have seen on this podcast. The other way is our course, 4 Weeks to Launch, where I peel back the curtain on how to develop a product start to finish in a way that can create positive impact rather than any negative ones. So please check that out. That is a great resource that will also be linked in the description as well. And see you in the next one.