Soaring towards Sustainability: Reimagining Air Travel with Scandinavian Airlines

Hello and welcome to this episode of Conscious Design. My name is Ian Peterman, a host of this and author of Conscious Design book. And today I'm excited to have Jasmine Uter. She's the GM of Americas for Scandinavian Airlines, and we'll be talking about sustainability, which is a huge topic for All airlines and what that means for you guys. So welcome to the show.

Thank you so much. Thanks for inviting me.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, it was— we met at an event in DC talking about packaging specifically, how that impacts, which I hadn't even thought of, like the weights and things like that. But bigger step in talking about all the sustainable things, there's this big goal I just mentioned, net zero by 2050, which is great. We should have that. What does that mean for you guys? What does that look like? Are you guys approaching a target like that?

And I should say that, I mean, I wish I could take credit that, you know, we're the only ones, but it's an industry standard to get to net zero CO2 emissions by 2050. I think the entire industry takes this very seriously. And I just want to point out that today it's only about 2 to 3% that comes from the airline industry of the global emissions. And that may not sound like a lot, but it's going to increase. And the reason why it's going to increase is because, A, we're buying more stuff online. B is because growing or developing countries will adopt the same behaviors that we have. They will travel more. And I'm talking about countries like India, China, and Brazil. So if nothing is done, it looks like the emissions will increase to up to 25%, which is super scary. So we really need to address this aggressively, I should say. So yeah, so we subscribe to the overall industry goal. Being an airline, 95%, roughly, of our emissions come from the operations. So that's the aircraft and the fuel. So So as a first step, we've invested in a new fleet. So that's very capital intensive. That requires a lot of capital. So for short haul, we have replaced most of our aircraft to Airbus NEOs. And for long haul, we replaced a few, quite a few, to be either Airbus 350s or Airbus 321 long ranges. So right now, I think 80-plus percent of our fleet has been replaced. So we have the youngest and— or one of the youngest and most modern fleets of all the European carriers as a consequence. So that is, you know, based on today's technology, what we can do with what's available today. And already doing that will reduce the emissions by up to 20, maybe up to 30%, depending on aircraft type. So that's a significant reduction. So the second thing that one can do is to look at the fuel. And what one can do with today's engines and today's aircraft is to try to use as much sustainable aviation fuel as possible. The advantage with that, there are several advantages. One is that it reduces emissions significantly with up to 80% over its lifecycle. And also it shouldn't have any negative impact on water or land use and all that stuff. The other advantage is that it doesn't require any change in infrastructure. So it can be transported the same way, it can be fueled the same way. It has chemical components, or say chemical structure, I should say, as fossil fuel. So you can just put it in today's engines. And today it's possible that our engines are certified to fly with up to 50% SAF. So the rest of it would be traditional fossil fuel. The problem is that there isn't that much available. So We only fly with a few percentages today. We would like to fly with up to 50%, but there isn't enough produced. And there isn't enough fossil material today to produce what is needed, not just for the airline industry, but, you know, the transportation industry, whether it be trucks or ships, but also, you know, for your average consumer, we all need to change. So then you can start looking into synthetic fuel. Which is great. So it has the same kind of components, if you will, or chemical structure, but it's synthetically produced. So again, it's going to have all the same benefits, but it's, let's say, more readily available than the virgin fuel. But again, there's not enough, and we're not the only ones, it's the entire industry. So, you know, here and now, changing the aircraft and changing the fuel is what can be done, but we have to look at other options if we're really going to reach that goal. So that means, you know, different type of aircraft fundamentally. So for us, what we've done is we've partnered up with a Swedish company called Heart Technologies, and they are building the first electric aircraft. It's only going to be used for short haul because I think the biggest version they have is either, I think, 30 seats or maybe 45. I'm not sure. I think they have 2 versions. So it's only going to be shorter distances, so domestic within Scandinavia, and that's already 2028. So we actually sold out the first flight. We opened it up for ticket sales a few months ago and it sold out in, I think it was 2 minutes. Yeah.

So people want it.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So it's in production, it's under development, let's say. There are like hybrids or mockups available of this aircraft. So that's the first step, but we're in a market that's far away from Scandinavia. So we need much bigger aircraft. So that's probably going to be something that's run with hydrogen. That's a little bit different. So just 2 weeks ago, approximately, we announced a collaboration with Airbus, the Swedish energy company, the Swedish Aviation Authority, and the Norwegian Aviation Authority. To look into what it would mean if we were to switch over to hydrogen. What would that mean for the infrastructure? The timetable right now is 2035 for a hydrogen aircraft.

I love the idea. I actually interviewed a research team out of the UK, oh, almost a year ago, maybe about a year ago, that they took like 3 years and they went through and they're Their final report was 100% doable. We just need— you just put the R&D money toward it. But technically, we have the technology. No sci-fi required to make it happen and actually be done. That's amazing. You guys are partnering with this. So they're 2035. That's still way sooner than 2050.

Yeah, absolutely.

That's awesome.

The airline industry really takes this seriously, and we're very much aware of our contribution to the emissions. So, you know, on a personal note, I feel happy that we're able to take these steps. And we've taken the first steps with investing in the fleets, and we've taken the next step to invest in the next generation short-haul aircraft. And now we're taking the next step together with Airbus industry to look at the long-haul fleet as well, you know, the next generation. And in the meantime, we're also partnering up with Various suppliers regarding sustainable aviation fuel, synthetic sustainable aviation fuel here and now, because, you know, we need to start to reduce the emissions. We've already reduced a significant amount, as I alluded to, since we've changed the fleet. And our goal is to reduce it by 25% by next year compared to 2005. So we're on our way to achieving that. But this has to be done, I think, in incremental steps because A, there's a limited supply, B, technology needs to catch up. By addressing the aircraft and the fuel, that's 95% of the emissions, plus 95%. So that's a significant step. That's what we've done. And then in addition to that, we've looked at just about everything else. So I looked at every item on board the aircraft, every single item down to the swizzle sticks. Do they need to be on board? And we've removed any item that we didn't see really was necessary because every item that we remove will make the aircraft lighter, and that will use less fuel. So every item that you see on board an SAS aircraft has been reviewed. We try to replace them with material or items that are made with material that is sustainable. So just as an example, the fabric that we use on our seats is sustainable wool.

Amazing.

We replace all that. Yeah. So, and they're cleaned with a cleaning material that is biodegradable that we've developed together with a partner. Wow.

So you developed your own, your own cleaning?

Yeah, together with— I mean, we don't do everything ourselves. We need to partner with the key in this.

But still, taking on a cleaning product, that's usually not within the wheelhouse that an airline would even look at.

If you're serious about it, you have to.

That's amazing.

Yeah. We did away with tax-free some years ago, lighter, but also people buy everything online these days and they're not buying stuff on board an aircraft anymore. We've looked at all the food items. We've looked at, you know, everything, USB ports, you know, everything has been looked at. The crew, The pilots in the old days, they used to carry all this, you know, heavy stuff, all their checklists and everything. Now everything is in an iPad. So, you know, everything has been reviewed. So less material, whatever is on board is sustainable, and less items on board.

You guys have been customizing. When you bought this new fleet of planes, it wasn't just, ah, what the manufacturer made. You guys were going through And replacing the seat material and USBs and things like that as well down, really customizing for those planes as well.

We also looked at, you know, what else is there. So at an airport, when you've gone on board an aircraft and you're waiting for the pushback, you will see vehicles driving around. The SAS vehicles, with one or two exceptions, have been replaced from fuel vehicles to electric. So that's one thing. In our office, you know, we've done everything we can also in the administration. So we have like the light turns off automatically. We use, you know, recyclable material in the office. Everything is, you know, it's not just paper cups are removed and we bring our own stuff. But also we separate All the waste. And at the technical basis where we do maintenance of our aircraft, it's the same. We basically have no heat because everything is powered by the lighting. So we can reduce, you know, the use of heating. And we recycle there as well and separate the waste at the technical maintenance, everything. So everything has been basically reviewed, everything. And of course, you know, we do all the evaluations, whether they be ISO standards or other standards. as well to make sure that we have all the management tools and everything in place so we're compliant.

That's amazing. Yeah, there's, there's so much. We just think about what's the plane, right? But there's so much, you know, like what you just mentioned, the people, all those support vehicles. There's a lot of fuel that gets burned on the ground just getting the plane ready.

There's a Planes can't reverse, so you have to use a vehicle to push them back. You know, there is a vehicle involved. So if that is electric, it's also better because the engines will not be on at that time. So there's no emission from the aircraft. So if the car then, or the vehicle that pushes the aircraft, and if that's run by, you know, electric instead of fossil.

Yeah, there's, there's so many layers to it. And you guys, it sounds like you guys have really dived into Everything goes into. And you, you mentioned, uh, the event that we met at was all about packaging and even just how do you package food, let alone everything else. So many items that get packaged when you load up a plane to be able to use it.

Yeah.

So that alone is a lot of products that go into that. You know, you mentioned there's, there's a few things and most of it's the airplane, right? Actual, actual fuselage and fuel. And fuel's been kind of a hard, hard path to get to because there's just not enough. Is it something where you guys— are you guys starting to see more fuel producers come online to be able to offer that? Or is that— is this something that you guys are looking at vertically integrating so you can get it done? Like, how are you navigating there just being a supply shortage and be able to actually jump to the percentage you guys want?

Yeah. So we're not producing it, will not be producing it as far as I know ourselves, but we've partnered up with other producers. So here in the States, it's Gevo, for instance, and there are others throughout Scandinavia. But I have to say also here in the States with the Inflation Reduction Act and the incentive with tax discounts or tax incentives for producers of SAF. We believe that that's a good way to move forward when it comes to increasing the production of SAF. So the United States will become more important to us in that sense, and we plan on refueling more here as a consequence because there is more access to it here in the States. Europe has a tendency in this case to impose restrictions, but here in the States, it's been more, you know, make it more available by reducing the taxes to produce it. So the answer is we're partnering up to get access to it. And we're trying to get a hold of it where it's available, basically. We're basically buying everything that we can. But the problem is also that it's not just that it's scarce, but it's also very expensive. It's about 3 to 4 times more expensive than fossil fuel. Uh, which is unfortunate. That, that might be a hindrance for some to switch over because fuel is very expensive as it is. And to pay, you know, 3 or 4 times more, it's a lot.

That's expensive. It's very expensive. But you're seeing, you're seeing a positive pretty soon then when in, especially at least the US and production going up.

The production is going to go up, most likely. I don't think anyone believes that it's going to be enough to get to 50% and enough for our airlines, enough for the whole transportation industry, and enough for, you know, our cars. There is just not enough going to be produced. There's not enough, you know, plants. There's not enough biological material. There are not enough producers in order to get to that point.

And this is where—

yeah, which is why we have to look into, okay, different types of aircraft that are fueled differently.

Hey, it's Ian here. So glad you're enjoying this episode of Conscious Design. If you want the full scoop on conscious design, what it is, how we do it, how you can do it, then check out our book. We wrote it so creative entrepreneurs like you can code social and environmental responsibility right into your brand's DNA. You can download the first chapter for free. Link is in the description. Enjoy the rest of the episode. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and share. Right. So what you're seeing is that these biofuels and these other options are really— they're great, but long term, with how quickly air travel will increase, because jumping from 1% to 2% to 25%, that's massive growth in the next 2050.

Yeah. And I think also that, you know, if the pandemic taught us anything, or I think there were a lot of learnings from the pandemic, but one of them was that people are not willing to give up travel. So expect people to change their behavior, it's not going to happen. I mean, there was a, you know, I'm originally from Sweden and there was a big movement in Sweden that people shouldn't be flying and it's a bad thing to fly. And some people are starting to change their behavior because of it and took the trains and all that. It takes forever if you're depending on where you're going and everything. But then the pandemic hit and everyone was locked down for I don't know how long. And then once we got out of it, you know, people didn't care one iota about this, about sustainability. They just wanted to go somewhere else because they've been locked in for what is it, 2 years, whatever. So, and it's not really bounced back since. People are still, you know, really dying to travel. So I don't think that that's going to change. And I think also if you look at it from a, you know, more philosophical point of view, I think it's probably I think it's good for mankind that we do travel, that we meet each other, that we interact with people from different cultures and backgrounds. And yes, probably help with the whole, you know, understanding between different groups of people, different nations and all that. So I think, you know, it does a lot of good, right? But it has to be done in a different way.

We need to be able to get from place to place.

Yes. But better.

You brought up my room.

And it's up to all of us to change our behavior.

Yeah, and I think you brought up a good point of how there's developing economies, right? There's even just, you know, just taking a look at Africa, there's a lot of developing economies. And people, as those economies grow, people get money. As they have more disposable income, they will want to fly more and go visit places. They want to leave their continent, check out other cultures, other varied areas.

Our lifestyle. And I don't blame them. And we can't tell them No, you can't do it because we've been doing this for so long. We just need to make sure that we do it different than we've done for many years. None of us can continue in the way that we have. But to say to people, no, you can't fly, that's not the answer. It's not going to work. People won't accept that. So we just have to make sure they can do so sustainably. So yeah.

I love that. I think it's For a long time, there's been a lot of focus on, oh, just reduce, reduce, reduce. And that you can maybe say that in some of the top economies of the world right now where you could go, hey, there's excess. But you can't say that to developing nations where they're growing and they want to catch up.

Well, who can blame them?

Yeah, I mean, I would too. Like, why would we want to go backwards? I think it's one of the biggest things about sustainability is that anytime we've tried to create sustainability by restricting or kind of that negative side of motivation, people push back. They don't like it. You say, oh, if you do it, you can do it. Just do it this way and it'll be sustainable. Then I feel like you get a lot more, you get a lot more support and then you can, then you can make, you figure out how to make it cheaper and better and all that, all that stuff. But you gotta give, at least give an option that you can still fly. You can still be able to do that. So like, hey, we have this, we're using these fuels, we're using better planes.

Yeah.

All these things, you can still fly. You're just, this is, this is a better way to fly now. And then we'll get better late.

Exactly. Exactly.

Yeah, well, that's— it's amazing. Um, you're— so kind of jumping over to the hydrogen planes. So that's something that you guys— so when you go looking forward, that is what you guys see as the next technology to really take, take you to net zero then? Like, that's— are you thinking of kind of removing all the biofuel and transition, like a full transition over? And then is that, is that kind of what you guys are looking at as that tipping point to go from almost maybe could get to net zero and then cross over? And yes, net zero is 100% possible with hydrogen.

I think my best guess is that there will be a mix for some time before, you know, everything is transitioned over. I think there will be Sustainable aviation fuel. We'll start introducing the electric aircraft on some routes. And then 10 or 8 years later, we have hydrogen and we might have some still that run on SAF. And I think it's going to be a mix. But maybe 20 years down the line, maybe it's all going to be hydrogen.

Right. So maybe by 2050, that's your— it might be.

But I think that it could be even then, maybe some aircraft are electric, some are hydrogen. The end result will be the same. There will be zero emissions from the aircraft.

Right.

So much like today, when we have, you know, this aircraft model for short haul and this aircraft model for long haul, it could be the same then that we have, you know, electric here and hydrogen there, as long as the end result is the same.

Right.

Yeah.

It's still, as long as it's net zero, it's—

Yeah, exactly. So I think it's a matter of phasing in and phasing out over time.

Got it.

So, yeah. But I think moving over to electric and hydrogen needs to happen, you know, in the near future, but also in a way that is, you know, safe, obviously, for everyone.

Yes. Well, absolutely. That's, that's one of, and that was one of the things when I, when I talked to the research group, they were was very interesting is they were predicting an even higher safety level with it if done right. You introduce hydrogen.

Okay.

And yeah, that was interesting. So yeah, I think it's an interesting technology and it's great that you guys are looking, right? That's another decade of development. A long time to go to like a first prototype kind of test line, have a, have a plane fly that way.

But imagine, I mean, it's because, you know, technology is just not there so that it needs to be developed. And, you know, what I mean, we're kind of developing after the need has occurred in a way. So, and how often does that happen?

So not very often. It's a good— I like that when you can do it.

Yeah, so it's, you know, I think that everyone is feeling, you know, we need to get this in place. But again, you know, being an airline, it's, you know, first and foremost is safety. So it needs to be managed and handled in a safe way.

Well, I think it's a great thing that you guys tested with selling tickets to your Electric plane. Like, the great— that's a great way to get it, get that vote of confidence and say, hey customer, are you— if we offered you an electric plane, would you, would you be willing to put your money, money towards it? And how do you— would you feel safe with it? Right. That's a huge public perspective and—

Yeah.

On things. So, which is great. I'm super excited to hear that that was, that was sold out in 2 minutes. That's pretty solid.

Yes.

Just something. There's not much else gets sold out that fast. Maybe some Taylor Swift concert tickets.

Maybe, but it's one of us.

So it puts it up there. It puts it up there. Fantastic.

Well, I have to say that the reactions to the news the other day regarding the partnership and the hydrogen aircraft was incredibly positive. So I think that—

Oh, that's good.

A willingness and an interest out there. So not just for electric but also hydrogen.

I feel like hydrogen's kind of been floating out there for a little while and people have gotten kind of used to it. I even— yeah, what is it? I think it's Toyota has a hydrogen car that you can—

you can—

I think you can only get it in a couple cities because that's where hydrogen— you can actually buy hydrogen.

That's an example.

But it's groundwork, right? You got to, you got to make sure people actually buy it before you invest in, because it is an infrastructure change. You can't just throw hydrogen in a gas tank and have it work.

Exactly. The other day I drove my first Tesla and that was, you know, it felt great. So I, you know, I drove quite a while and I could drive, you know, in a sustainable way. But then finding a place, where do I charge it? And that's more difficult than finding a traditional gas station, obviously.

Yes.

But that's, I think, the biggest downside. And plus it takes a long time to charge.

Yes.

Yeah. So there's still some hurdles, some work that needs to be done. And I think that that is true for the transformation that we're in as a society right now to transform into something more sustainable. It's going to take us some time to get to a point where it's both sustainable and on the level that we're used to.

Yeah, it's something that just as long as you make sure it's as easy, then it becomes easy. The easier you make for the consumer to be able to switch for— I think there was— I was talking to someone about this and it's It has to— the change has to be convenient and easy. And if you do that, then it's easy. It's easy for everyone. If a customer— they almost shouldn't know the difference, right, between the sustainable version and the unsustainable version, because their experience should be the same.

Yeah.

Only they'll go, you know, other than knowing this one's sustainable and I'm— we're improving other things.

Yeah.

It's important. Yeah. Well, this has been a great conversation. I'm really excited about everything you guys are doing. It's— you guys are— you guys seem to have checked every single box diving through all the things you could possibly do, which is an impressive feat.

We— I didn't cover the food and beverage section. Do you want me to go through that as well?

Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about food and beverage.

Yeah. Because that's a, that's actually a big part as well.

Okay.

So we have, as part of this transition over to net-zero emissions, food is a big part of that. Plus, we carry a lot of food and beverage on board our aircraft. So one of the things that we've done is to look at what kind of food is it. So we've changed to organic and locally produced. So that we don't have to transport the food for, you know, longer distances for it to be able to be loaded onto the aircraft. So that's one thing. So we have more healthy and, as I said, locally produced. And the packaging has been changed. So again, we've reviewed all the items on the tray and removed some things. I don't think that any customer noticed that we removed some things because, you know, it's just there. And again, you know, that extra salt and pepper shaker or whatever it is, you know, it adds up after a while.

Right.

And then, so the whole packaging was reviewed as well, and we've changed the material and removed everything that wasn't necessary. And by doing that, we've reduced the amount of plastic that was used with over 50 tons per year. That's a significant amount. And then, We recycle what we can as long as it's in line, obviously, with local legislations. There are strict rules on what you can do with waste from food, but we recycle aluminum cans, what have you. We have on some routes the possibility to choose in advance what you want to eat. So we will In a few weeks, we'll be launching the same on our long-haul fleet. So in business class, we'll go first. So you'll be able to, before boarding the aircraft, choose what you want to eat. And it's, I think, not just a nicer experience for the customer, but also we know exactly how much food is requested and what people want to eat. So it will lead to less waste. And less weight on board the aircraft.

That's great. That was a great idea.

Yeah. So probably down the line, it'll be more commonly used that people pick what they want to eat before boarding the aircraft. And thus, we know that people will eat whatever it is that they choose, and we don't have to load a lot of extra stuff. So that's another example of trying to reduce The weight, but at the same time, you know, keeping customers happy, uh, on board our aircraft. So.

Right. Oh, I love that. It's definitely— I feel like that's a better experience being able to pick beforehand, and then you just, you know what you're gonna get and you don't have to worry about all of the one dish running out on the plane because you're the last one, last one to order.

Exactly.

Now you have one option anyway. So yeah.

That—

I love that idea. Definitely more efficient for everyone, really.

Yeah, yeah, I think so. So it's a good combination between customer satisfaction and sustainability. So, you know, win-win for everyone, basically.

Amazing. Before we wrap up, is there anything— I love that you brought up the food part. Is there anything else that you want to mention or or talk about?

So yeah, I can just mention that by choosing SAS, it's a good choice for sustainability if that's one of your key components. It's a good product that we have irrespective of if you believe in sustainability or not. But if you want to make it even more sustainable, you can buy sustainable aviation fuel. If you buy your ticket on our web page, you can buy blocks of sustainable aviation fuel. So we sell them in blocks of 20 minutes and they're $10 each. So that's one way to contribute even more. If you are a company or you work for a company, we can offer a— you can buy sustainable aviation fuel in bulk through us.

Okay.

So we can set that up so you can buy once or you can subscribe so you buy it repeatedly. We have different options available. Also for companies, if they want to buy a larger quantity for their employees when they travel on behalf of the company. And also, if you're a member of our loyalty program, we will automatically offset. It's not the same thing as reducing, but it's still, you know, a small step in the right direction.

Right.

So we will do that on your behalf as well. So there are different options that you can choose from if you want to travel even more sustainably.

That's awesome. It's always good to have options.

Yeah.

Perfect. Well, I really appreciate your time being on this and being able to talk about everything you guys are doing. It's great to hear you guys definitely looking at the long term, which is important to hit that goal. And it sounds like you guys are well on your way and able to be able to achieve it relatively Yeah. You know, easy.

I think so.

You know, it sounds like a simple plan now that we laid it out. It'll be, it'll be hard. It'll be a lot of work to get there, but it's, you know, it seems easy at the surface, at least. A clear, a clear path. Maybe that's a better, better way to do it.

Yeah. A clear path is a good description.

Which is good. I think it's, it's a massive change from, you know, 10 years ago when it was more of a I don't know how we're going to achieve it. So yeah, well, perfect. And for everyone on the show, you guys can obviously find you guys— what is the best way to find your guys' website and any way to reach out about sustainability or anything like that?

So if you want to just book a ticket on SAS, You can go to a travel agent or our webpage is flysas.com, which is where you can book tickets. If you want to read more about what we're doing and our strategy and our goals and all that stuff, sasgroup.net is the place to go.

Perfect. And we'll make sure those, for everyone listening, those links will be in the description too. So you can just click those. And again, thank you so much for taking the time. Really appreciate it, Jasmine.

Thank you so much.

Hey there. Thanks for joining us for this episode. I hope that you're enjoying the content we're putting out. If you're looking for more ways to learn about this, to get involved, create your own consciously designed products, there's a couple of ways that you can do that. First is our book, Conscious Design, which you'll find a link to in the description of this episode. Please check that out. Go over. Quite a bit of information, what the process is, how I've applied it to product design, and some really great examples of companies out there that are doing really great work, some of whom you have seen on this podcast. The other way is our course, 4 Weeks to Launch, where I peel back the curtain on how to develop a product start to finish. In a way that can create positive impact rather than any negative ones. So please check that out. That is a great resource that will also be linked in the description as well. And see you in the next one.