The Fabric of Change: Nancy Taylor’s Sustainable Fashion Journey at Lolë

Hello, and welcome to this episode of Conscious Design. I'm your host, Ian Peterman, and author of the Conscious Design book. And today, I'm excited to be talking to Nancy Taylor. She's the VP of Design at Lola, a fashion brand. Welcome to the show.

Hi, Ian. It's great to be here. Thank you for having me.

Absolutely. Well, excited to dive into things with you. Kind of to step back a little bit of origin story. How did you— if you tell everybody how you got into sustainability. I know you launched your own brand as well, but also worked at big companies. How did this all start and you ended up where you are now with, with Lola?

It's a really good question. So I started in the early days of the athleisure space and active space and had a fortunate journey to travel and see a lot of our factories and partners and watched the apparel business grow for over a decade. And as I was traveling, I was realizing that there has to be better ways of doing the process. We worked for a wonderful corporation, had a lot of compliance and places that, you know, like little checks and balances that were in step. But I really felt that we needed to do it differently. And so I ended that journey and really had a passion about launching my own brand. So I launched in 2018 Epoch Evolution, and it was seated in an idea of sustainability, but not just sustainability. We call it responsible, so that you had this responsibility with every step of the process, from the minutiae of the packaging and the labels to your partners and the people that made your clothes to the raw materials. We didn't say we had it 100% perfect because nobody does, but we made the best choices that we could along the way. Then I was lucky enough to be introduced to Lolli Brands, and they acquired our brand about 2 years ago now. And I have been working with their design since 2020 on really relaunching their brand after the pandemic and bringing in a lot of sustainability features and the passion for that. And now as a larger global brand with the Lolay brand with all the tiers, we're looking to secure our B Corp certification in the next 12 to 18 months, which has been another interesting journey of going through that process. So there's a big passion on doing what you can do, how you measure it, and how you make your choices are all intertwined in that path.

Yeah, well, B Corp, and we talked about that a little bit before, that's a whole path and process and a lot of work to go through. You said you have another like 12 months to go. How long have you been working on that?

We've been making a lot of the right steps and choices along the way. And we really had a passion from our brand to say, hey, could we go after this? So we're at the very early stages now of looking at bringing in consultants that can help us move through the process because our team is really lean. We're— resources are very lean, as a lot of companies are now. So to have the extra bandwidth to do that, so we're looking for external sources and really pulling it all together. So it is about a 12 to 18 month journey, and it depends on, you know, the size of your company, how many different outlets you have. And our company also involves retail plus 3 different tiers in the production. And a lot of different countries that we produce through. So that's going to take a little bit of time and gathering all the information and then also getting an impact assessment that we can communicate out to our customers. Right now we're just communicating mostly about our raw materials, and that is a great start, but there's so much more to the package.

How does that work? You're providing that information to consumers. How have they responded? How does that work with you guys?

Well, a lot of what we do, we're making the right decisions internally, and then whether we communicate it out directly to the customer or not, sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't. Or for example, we might do an OEKO-TEX rated fabrication, but we are not able to communicate that to the customer because of the regulations of how you use it. But we're still choosing that raw material to begin with. Another standard would be the responsible wool standard that they have. We always collect that whenever we do wool, but we sometimes— our partners don't have the license, or we don't have a license. You have to purchase that certificate in order to communicate it to the customer, but we're still making those choices. So along this journey, our hope is to be able to secure some of the certifications and work with our factories and partners so that they have it on their state, their level as well. And then we can have a little bit more of a higher measurement, I guess, even though we're doing it on the backend. So a lot of this is what do we and don't we communicate to the customer? I mean, our intent is the biggest thing. And now we'll be able to actually measure the products and hopefully lifecycle analysis on certain products, our key products, actually measure that impact and be able to communicate it directly to the customer so that they're confident in what they're buying and understanding it.

That's awesome. Yeah, it's a whole— as soon as you get into those regulations and certifications, yeah, it kind of Kind of limits what you can tell people officially, right? But I think there's a, the more and more I see companies like yours that are, you're making all the right choices, you just can't tell people as much. But the more that we do that, the easier we support those vendors and those suppliers, then they have the cash flow and they can grow and they can also go through the certification process, right? It all, we gotta have the money flowing to the right people so that they can—

Yeah, yeah. It's just kind of sad for smaller companies that like what you are limited to— because I think a lot of companies are making the correct decisions. But when you get into actually registering to become a B Corp, it's very labor intensive and very expensive to do. And a lot of smaller companies aren't able to do that. Or a lot of the standards in their certificates, they can make the right decisions along the way. But I don't know what you would call it, like actual certification of the compliance part of it is expensive. And so I think that that should be more accessible to everybody. And I think it would allow a lot more companies to opt into it.

Yeah, the financial barrier, that stuff, it's high. And you mentioned too, because you guys are, you're manufacturing, but you're also retail. So even though you're not Nike, you're still way more complicated than what maybe a similar size company that just manufactures or is just one thing. It's adding a lot of complication to you guys.

Right. We also, we got the information that we have a lot of different SKUs in apparel. So, you know, our season collection may be 70 pieces to 75 pieces. So that becomes a little bit more complicated as well, as opposed to if you were just selling coffee. If you were selling coffee, you're selling coffee, you're selling coffee beans, and it's a little easier of a process. But with apparel, it's a little— it's quite complicated.

Right. That's a lot of work as you've been going at it, right? You said you're bringing out some consultants and doing all the work. Is it because you've been doing it sustainably for a long time? Really? Is it more of documenting all of it? Or are you guys seeing, oh, there's big changes that we have to make with it?

I think that's a bit of both. So you do need to document it and see where your impact assessment comes out and where your decisions are. You, without measuring that, you actually could make decisions based on assumptions that may or may not be true. So when you start measuring your decisions and you have the data in front of you, It helps you make choices. I give an example of a lot of our decisions right now are currently based around the raw materials. And there's a lot of new technology that's coming out now, like in the bio-based and the biodegradable, and then you have recyclable. So you have kind of 3 different choices in these historically fossil fuel-based fibers that are used a lot in the athletic apparel for polyester and nylon. You might assume that A biodegradable is better than recyclable, or you might assume that a bio-based product is better than a biodegradable one. But unless you actually go in and measure it and understand the impact of each of the processes, it's really difficult to make that educated decision. So, and it's not easy, it's really hard. So I've been asking this question, we've been talking with our partners and our mills, And really trying to assess what is the best process. And it might be something where a new technology is actually out there, but it's not yet commercially viable to the company. And you still have to make a profit. That's the whole goal of the business. And so it might be something where you do a baby step in between. So you might have not the perfect solution, but you have a better solution that you do for one season. And then in 2 seasons, the commercial viability and access to it makes it easier to get to by the 3rd season. It's muddy. Like, when I went into it, I was thinking it would be just so easy to make decisions, and it's not black and white.

Yeah, I feel like it's one of those areas— I mean, everything kind of comes in gray anyway. Black and white is very hard, but we like to— it feels like it should be a pretty easy yes/no, like sustainable or not. There's like a line, and you're on one side or the other. And the more, and with every product, what we do in our design firm, every person I talk to has just realized that there's so many options and there's, there's multiple ways to be sustainable or create circularity. And there's, there's no easy one-size-fits-all decision. Yeah. Yes. No, it's, it's this process that you're talking about going through. Have you had any surprises that you guys kind of were running through that you're like, oh, this works and this is good. But then through, as you've been starting this process, Fab been like, oh, that's a surprise. We didn't realize that was there. Or have you so far has been pretty on track?

I think there's always surprises in looking at things. I mean, this is a simple thing on our packaging of looking at how we do our xFactory bags. And we used to solely rely on recycled content. But then as the biodegradable contents came, that's— there's a lot of different levels of biodegradable. So it can biodegrade into microplastics and it still stays in the environment, which we all know is not good. Or it can actually completely biodegrade over time. And then does that process need to be controlled in a recycled process, or does it biodegrade in a regular landfill? And when you talk about circularity, is it possible to have— is it better to have, you know, maybe those bags that stay in work more often so that they can— the customer can reuse them and reuse them and reuse them before they ultimately go to their end of life? So I think a lot of those has been really interesting of like, oh yeah, sure, biodegradable is better, but then you have to really deep dive in. You have to ask questions. I think that's the biggest thing. That I'm coming to is that you definitely have to ask a plethora of questions to be able to really truly understand what's happening. But the good news is, is that there's so much new technology happening around this now that we are slowly moving away from the reliance solely on the fossil fuel-based products and moving into things that function for the apparel and function for the product that are other options.

There's definitely more and more technology. It's much better now even than 5 years ago. It's impressive what people are coming out with. And to your point on the biodegradable, it's one of my favorite things to bring up when people are like, oh, let's do something sustainable. And I'll say like, oh, what do you think about biodegradable? And I'll get 5 different answers. Or we can dive into, you know, what you're talking about is, oh, well, is it in a— do you have to put it in a machine to biodegrade it? Do you have to What do you mean by it? And it's kind of one of those catchy words, sounds cool, but it means like 10 different things.

Exactly.

Depending on who you're talking to. So it's always a fun one to dive into. Kind of swinging, right, you're VP of Design, you're a designer. How does all of this play into the actual design of a product, right? You have the sustainability things you're tracking and keeping in mind, you're working on B Corp certification, how does that impact the design process of your next collection for next spring?

Another really good question. One of the things that we're trying to do is really focus on our raw materials and maximize those. So instead of having a huge broad range of different raw materials, really focus in on key fibers that we know that work. And that way we can innovate within it and offer maybe 5 or 6 different designs with the same fabrication. So that helps us, one, have stronger partnerships with our mills, and then two, it helps us control more of the full circle of it, of how we're offering it to the customer, and then really maximizing what it can do for us. So instead of getting so broad and then wanting to add extra designs to the assortment that are one-offs, it's not really beneficial for us or even the customer in understanding how that's going to work. So if she finds a fabric that she likes, Or he finds a fabric that he likes, it's easier to keep iterating on that. And then we're looking at products of how circularity is another big topic. I don't think from Epoch right now we have a resale platform and we're hopefully able to integrate that onto the Loli platform soon as well. It's been challenging just because of our ERP system and some of the backends from a technical point of view. We haven't been able to do it, but we're actually moving towards that so that we can add that on. Probably within the next 2 to 3 months, which is exciting too. A lot of times you have these ideas of just wanting to move them and then, oh, our systems won't talk to each other if we just add that in. And so we can't do that. So then you have to go back and reprogram everything.

I've been there.

Yeah. Yeah. So there's a lot of things like that when, and when we look at circularity is actually a little bit challenging in the apparel space because recycling, when you mix fibers becomes problematic.

Yeah.

And everyone loves Lycra and stretch. So that is an external fiber that's mixed in. There are new technologies now that are able to start sorting that out. Again, they're not 100% commercially viable, but hopefully down the road that will be. But making sure that the customer can wear it as long as they can, if they have a place to resell it, reuse it, donate it. And then again, for the circularity, The pure fibers can be recycled, and then there's the upcycled content of that. So those are all opportunities that we have. We know that we are looking at them and how we put it into play. We are not currently executing on a lot of it, but I think that that's going to be something that our impact assessment, assessment is going to tell us. And hopefully in the next year, year and a half, we'll be able to move towards that.

Hey, it's Ian here. So glad you're enjoying this episode of Conscious Design. If you want the full scoop on Conscious Design, what it is, how we do it, how you can do it, then check out our book. We wrote it so creative entrepreneurs like you can code social and environmental responsibility right into your brand's DNA. You can download the first chapter for free. Link is in the description. Enjoy the rest of the episode. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and share. That's awesome. Yeah, there's, there's good to hear on the technology. I've been starting to see, see some things about being able to actually separate fibers, which has been the the bane of all, all attempts to recycle any of it, which is a bummer because, yeah, we all— especially you have experience on the athleisure wear side— like everything's a little, at least a little bit stretchy. And that, that's—

Wherever the customer wants it, that's the form and function of how the product works. So then how do we move towards being able to have that be there but then give it its full life cycle so that it has A better end of life.

Right. What materials do you guys really like that work really well? Kind of what is your— if you were to have your top 3 materials that really fit your need and cover all the bases for you guys, what are you working in most?

I think there's a, there's a 3-tiered approach of the mix. We love the— especially from the Epoch point of view, we love natural fibers. So we work a lot with organic cotton and wool. And again, it's naturally antimicrobial, it's sustainable. fiber, it's wicking, you don't have to wash it as much. Yeah. So there's all these things that are great that we work with from that. And then from the synthetic point of view, because there's a need for that as well for the durability and then the stretch and ease of it. So we're moving into a lot of— really looking forward to moving a lot of programs into the bio-based ones. So they're coming from like a food-based product or a wood-based product that's kind of moving in. You have Cellulose fibers as well that have a, you know, from viscose to, I would say the top end would be Tencel from the eucalyptus plant. That's a sustainable wood fiber pulp. But looking at how you can use the byproducts of waste that already exists in the environment and then bringing it into the fiber versus doing it from the fossil fuels. So that's the most exciting. And that's where we're looking at moving a lot of the programs. And it's also now commercially viable and available for us to make some key decisions without risk and moving them so they perform the same for the customer. Because a lot of the times the customer's like, oh, I'm not sure this is going to perform for me. And there's a hesitancy from the consumer level of really understanding what it is. But as we test it, and again, we won't move major programs without very vetting it and testing it and understanding it molecularly, these new bio-based polys and nylons are exactly the same. They're just coming from a different raw material.

So you're really seeing true replacement materials on the horizon for the nice stretch that we all like in our clothes.

Well, the stretch comes with the added Lycra, or it comes from a mechanical point of view of how the fiber itself is either knitted or woven. So there's a lot of new technology coming from mills where you can have a woven fabric that actually has a 4-way stretch that's mechanical and it has no Lycra in it and it has good recovery, which is really great. So you're— I think that—

Opening up the kinds of fibers you can get stretch out of, then you're able to use— that's even more amazing because there's— now you can have stretchy wool, maybe. Maybe.

Well, you can depending on how it's woven. And like a sweater is stretchy and just merino wool, how it's knitted. Yeah. So there's a lot of things happening from a multiple level kind of coming in to try to solve this problem.

That's amazing. That is exciting to hear that and see that you're actually seeing commercial, because I've seen, you know, a research level, right, which is not commercial. You're not, you're not gonna go sell it. A lab can do it, but that's not the same thing. So that's, that's exciting to hear that it's— you're actually as a company seeing this as a business direction because it's de-risked enough, or soon to be de-risked enough for you to go, yeah, we'll actually buy it and put it into That's a huge step forward for those materials.

It is, and it's exciting. A lot of companies like Patagonia and their partnership with Polartec or some of the other more sustainable mills, they're an open resource. So once they have developed it, then they bring it out, they make it available for other companies, and the technology is there from chemistry point of view too, and allowing that to evolve, which I love. So you're seeing this big push as more and more of the point comes to the consumer and the consumer cares, you're seeing this big push to solve some of these problems.

Right. I'm going to circle back a little bit because you mentioned something that was really interesting as a benefit, right? You, you don't have 1,000 materials in your library. You're narrowing down your library. So you're really building those relationships. But then you also mentioned something that I think a lot of people don't necessarily think about, which is the customer side of it. If you like— I've had this, I'll buy like a shirt that I like or something from a company and I love the material and they're like, I want to have more. I want a long sleeve shirt. I want something else made out of the same material. And then I can't find, like, they only make one product with that one material. And I, it always bums me out. I'm like, oh, I like, I just want this material. I want more of it. And so I think To your point, it's— you can create, you know, you might think, oh, well, we're limiting what we can do, we're limiting what's possible. But you're also— you're improving potentially your customer experience with your brand and your— that kind of size, at least, at least for me personally. Yeah.

The whole point of Epoch Evolution was that we would have these core materials and then she would be familiar with them and know them over, you know, season after season, year after year. And then she could come back and get new silhouettes or she could wear the new silhouettes with the old silhouettes. So that was definitely a big point that we've kept intact, that we've had some core fibers and fabrics that we've iterated on. And I think from a direct-to-customer brand solely, that that's important as well. So when the customer understands and likes it and feels it, then she knows that that's a fiber she can reorder because there's a difference between what you see on the screen and the assumption in the customer's brain Of what they're getting. So that is one other little point that helps solve the issue from a direct-to-customer solely and launching a brand.

I think it's so important, right? Because it's clothing, like you're wearing it, you feel it the entire time you're wearing it. So that tactile, when you find something that you like, being able to get it, you know, getting different shirts or dresses or pants or whatever it is, right? If you like it, you're going to like wearing those clothes. You're going to really enjoy it. So Thinking of that experiential part is very important. So great that you guys are doing that.

Yeah. Well, we're trying, but you do ultimately, as many changes as we make or as many decisions that we make, it has to resonate with the customer. And if the customer doesn't like it, then it's gonna fall flat. So we have to bring the customer along on the journey as well, which a lot of people now are saying, oh, your marketing Is— are you using it for the just the marketing ploy? But for me, I have a really big passion of educating the customer because I think that's the only way we're going to change our industry is really putting it out there and understanding why this is important, why these decisions make a difference to you. And that goes hand in hand. So not only is marketing essential, but it's also the education of the customer and the customer journey.

Yeah, education is so important. Even working with people in business, there's still a lot of, not necessarily misinformation, but old, old information where it's like, yeah, maybe that was true 10 years, 20 years ago. But like we were talking about, there's new technologies, there's new mechanical material, chemical. Like there's so much new stuff coming out that really lets, lets you as designer be able to go, I can make I can make things now that I couldn't have made before and do it sustainably and do it in all these ways that, you know, most people, the average consumer, right? They're not sitting there with, they're not spending time researching what's out there. They're just going, oh, well, this is cotton does this, wool does this. That's all I know. Polyester's this, because they've worn it. They've worn it for years and that's what they think it is. And Education is hard, but I think it's really important. How have you approached that education side with what you're doing with the products?

Well, we try to communicate it out within our marketing. We do have a wholesale division and we do train all the wholesale reps so they understand. So when we hand over the collection, we talk about it. We hand that— we, you know, hand over a deck that tells them exactly where our choices are and what's going on. But mostly through marketing is our biggest opportunity when you're talking directly to the customer. We do some information on the hang tags of the garment, like what we can put out so that they really understand it. But the biggest thing, and then like the podcast, like having a conversation with you, the customers get to listen to it and then they really understand what our beliefs and our mission and our intent is. Because again, to nail it 100% correct is really virtually impossible, but making the best informed decisions with the information you have in front of you and letting them know why we made decisions and how it is, especially with our production partners. And then we do get a lot of pushback sometimes on the pricing for Epoch, but we produce in a way where it's small batches with great partners and it's not a mass-produced product. So you have to understand that people need a fair wage. They need— all this part is brought together. And really educating the customer on why that matters as well.

Right. Well, that's awesome. I mean, it's a, it's a big task to do, but worthwhile because the more, I think the more brands like you that are out there talking about this, oh, we can, we can shift common knowledge, right, to what it is today. And that's an ongoing process. It'll never end. We keep inventing new things no matter what. If that's built into like how you guys operate, educating, then it— you can— we can bring the customer along with the journey of, oh yeah, well, it's not going to be the same in 5 years, but here's what it is right now. Here's the decisions we made. I love that, you know, sharing the decisions helps with that transparency because it's been murky for a long time, right? And I think anything that you can do to go, hey, we're making— this is why we made the decision. They may disagree with it, but at least they know Okay, well, they thought about it. They have a reason why it's not just cheapest. There's some thought behind it. And I think that connecting with, with customers will help them build trust again in brands that are actually doing it right. Don't trust the ones that aren't. But I think that'll help the fashion industry as a whole.

So yeah, we have a long way to go. It's still really challenging. As much of a passion as I have, I love fashion. And it does change, especially for women. And so it's interesting conundrum that I think we can solve though, through thinking the design process through at the beginning and thinking more circular that we have nowhere but up to go to improve the process. So that to me is what's exciting about it, really making a difference.

This has been a really great conversation. Love what you're doing. It's a lot. So good luck with all of that. I hope it— B Corp, it'll be 18 months, but then you'll be done. You'll have it. It'll be there. I think that's really great for you guys to go through that process. Before we wrap up though, is there— I just want to open up for you if there's anything you want to add, thoughts, message customers, partners, whatever it is.

Well, I love your concept of really thinking things through from the beginning on the conscious design part of it. I was really intrigued to meet you and the whole philosophy. And I also like your philosophy of looking at every portion from— it's not just the product, it's the packaging, it's the transportation, it's all of those components that go into it. And thinking it through from the beginning helps make informed decisions that hopefully will be better than the way the status quo has been.

For anybody that wants to find you guys or connect with you, What's the best place to do that?

Yeah, well, lolaylife.com is the brand and Epoch Evolution, and you can reach out to both the help centers. I get emails all the time that come in through there, so you can send it to us and the information gets directly to us. And I'm on LinkedIn as well with Nancy Taylor on LinkedIn.

Perfect. For everyone listening or watching, all that will be added to the show notes, so do check them out. Again, thank you for being on the show. This has been a fun conversation. Love the idea of conscious design. You have the book, so that's always exciting. Yeah, looking forward to chatting again.

Great. Thanks, Ian. Nice to be here.

Hey there. Thanks for joining us for this episode. I hope that you're enjoying the content we're putting out. If you're looking for more ways to learn about this, to get involved, create your own consciously designed products, So there's a couple of ways that you can do that. First is our book Conscious Design, which you'll find a link to in the description of this episode. Please check that out. Go over quite a bit of information, what the process is, how I've applied it to product design, and some really great examples of companies out there that are doing really great work. Some of whom you have seen on this podcast. The other way is our course, 4 Weeks to Launch, where I peel back the curtain on how to develop a product start to finish in a way that can create positive impact rather than any negative ones. So please check that out. That is a great resource that will also be linked in the description as well. And see you in the next one.