Episode #7: The UNDERMINER GAME

Welcome to episode seven of the Mind Games that people love to play in an organization. I'm not sure love is the right word, but anyway, you'll find them around. Today's episode is the Underminer. The Underminer. Great. Thanks for reminding me. Okay, Peter, so what do we mean by someone who's playing the Underminer game?

Somebody who is always looking to bring people down to the same level, somebody who is looking to establish their authority over potentially a newcomer or somebody who has suddenly started to look like they're going to excel and that is needing to be undermined because it puts everybody else in a bad light.

Why would they do that? I mean, what's the root cause?

Control. Which gets back to our previous video.

Yeah, go and watch the previous video.

So, so it comes down to control. It comes down to, this is how everybody, quote unquote, everybody in air quotes feels comfortable working in this environment. And we are just going to norm you into the team or into the.

Group that we're in from a value controlling. Let me dig slightly more in depth. Is this something because they are insecure of who they are so that they have to behave in a controlling manner and so that if things don't go their way, they'll start undermining people?

Yeah. So a lot of it can be driven by the kind of statement, if you keep doing that, then this is how it's going to impact me and I might have to step up to step up my game. I might be shown up for being, whatever, capable. Capable, or I'm just feeling really comfortable with the way things are at the moment. And if we do, if we all now are being role modeled by you, that's uncomfortable for us. So those are the kinds of things. Yeah.

So what is the difference between covert, someone who behaves as an undermining, covert way, and someone who is overt way.

Well, covert, sorry, overt is where you basically know you're being undermined. You go, really? Really? Is that what you're saying? Whereas in an, in a covert situation, you're having a lovely conversation with somebody and they're, they're saying, well, you know, really blah, blah, blah, this, that and the other. And you walk away saying, oh, that was lovely. And then you go, what did they just say?

Or what did I just find out? You know, half an hour, an hour later when someone says, well, by the way, this person said what?

Yeah, and actually it's really interesting because underminers tend to pull in other people. So if you starting to hear, I suppose you could call it Gossip about Joe or James or whoever it is. Or Jill. Oh, did you know that, Jill? Then you know that there is an undermining game going on there because they're going to talk to those people about you.

Correct, correct. And would you agree that someone who's more covert doesn't in undermining that way it's more dangerous?

Oh, yes, yes. Because your, your mental mindset is being moved into a pattern without your knowing. So it's okay to, if you make the conscious decision that, yes, I'm going to move into this mental mindset, mindset to, to conform to the organization, that's great. That's your choice.

Yeah.

But if you are being manipulated into it, then that's manipulation. Yeah. And the consequences are if you don't do that, if you don't conform, then they're going to, they being the comfort group, are going to move to get you sideways, upwards or just completely out.

Yes. Okay. How can we tell whether we're in a company or someone who's playing that game?

So one of the most interesting things is we are all open for critique. Well, hopefully we're all open for critique, but undermining is generally critique with no advantage purpose behind it. It's just critique for critique sake. And there's no driver that makes, that brings or that propels you towards some step towards excellence.

Yep, yep. So you mentioned about gossip. They, they tend to like to gossip to others. Yeah. And then it's. Again, I think it's more politics going there and so forth like that. I see. One of the most dangerous things is they tend to try and persuade others about the target person.

Correct. And therein lies the antidote. So if the rest of the group is now dependent on the underminer for their opinion of you, then you are always going to be at the mercy of that opinion.

Correct.

So the antidote to that is to actually open yourself out or open yourself up to that group and just basically show them who you are and say, so this is me. At one point in time, the one or more of the influences in that group are going to turn around and say, you know, Billy isn't exactly the way that Freddie is telling us he is. We're now making up our own mind.

Yes.

And the second thing is to actually have a really good communication with your immediate superior. Because the immediate superior is not immune to the undermining that takes place. Because if all he hears is from somebody who's been with the team for six years and Billy's doing this and Billy's doing that you may or may not be doing that, but if you have this open line of communication with your superior and you have a really good form of communication, then that's a really good anti.

What about them being competitive? Does that. Does that ring?

Yeah. A lot of the underminers are quite happy where they are, and it's about keeping the. And their status quo.

Okay.

Where it is, we're very happy. We're sitting here with our, let's say, fat paychecks and all of our perks, and now here, along you come, and if you don't conform with the rest of us, our game is up.

Yep. From an undermining perspective, they could do something like withhold information or, I'm not sure, vindictive behavior in terms of derailing a project, but you could do that. It depends on the threshold.

Yes. And look, it's a really interesting way to compromise people because we're talking about being inside of the bubble of the team, but if the underminer now starts talking outside of the team to potentially a competitor, or this, that and the other, then you're opening up a leak line where people can be compromised, where people can be tainted in reputation, where. And from those points, leverages can start to occur, which can then lead to all sorts of interesting things.

Yep, yep. Let me sort of touch on a point. The idea of them being fake, is that real or false? So fake from. Well, it's a Persona that they're built.

Yes.

To protect their own selves.

Yes.

So are they acting as fake because they're trying to put a veneer in front of them?

I think they become that Persona to be convincing in. It's. You know, there's the old acting school. You either act or you do method acting. And method acting means you basically become that person. So the most convincing Persona is the one that you basically, you live in the skin of. So essentially, people who live inside of a Persona, the most successful people are the ones that take that skin on.

Yeah. How do they. Or should I sort of just change the question in terms of how they actually target an individual or a group, how do they distinguish? The difference here.

Most often in just an ordinary office politics, is they just don't like you. But also, if they perceive you as a threat, you may have been inside of a team for months, years, and all of a sudden you do something that challenges that status quo, then you might start receiving. Be on the receiving end of the undermining process.

In Australia, we have a saying called the Tall Poppy Syndrome. And elsewhere, it's called don't make me look so bad. The idea of trying to knock someone who's reached maybe a higher level than you and bringing them down to your size is quite common. That could be maybe sort of an example of an underminer, but it could be also a group that behave in a collective way and say, well, why should that person be promoted to that role? Why wasn't I?

And this is a perfect example of rocking the status quo. We're all quite happy chugging along at the same pace with the same output, with the same deliverabilities, with the same results. And here you come and you're showing management that actually what we've been doing has been coasting.

Correct? Correct.

So we're not going to take that anymore.

Correct.

You're going to now conform to our very low standard.

Yes. That happens a lot. Yes. Question. What are then the risks that organizations face with such people?

You get, you get the kind of results that consensus brings. Everybody is in consensus that this is the way we should do things, which is not always the. Which is not always the output that you want. And also, if you establish a control mechanism inside of an organization, we're looking at a risk scenario here. If I can control Billy on small incremental ways. Keep on picking on Billy, don't I? Yeah, poor Billy. If I can pick on him or her in small incremental ways, then I am wearing a channel. I'm opening a channel of control. And potentially, if I was a nefarious controller or if I was a nefarious underminer, I could then manipulate that person to do things that they would not normally do inside of a. In their. I guess you would call it sane mind. Yeah. And that then becomes a problem if you have somebody who is opening up. For instance, if you, if you open up a channel with your systems administrator and you start chipping away at the systems administrator and next thing you've got them in control. Well, hello, big problem.

Yeah, you have a bigger problem. What are then other sort of key takeaway message?

As a. As a manager supervisor, your radar needs to be open for that for two reasons. The first reason is that your, your output level is going to be at the same level, is going to be at the same quality and quantity all the way through. No matter how you strive to employ people who are experts or are there to make a difference or to become change agents, they will either conform or they'll leave.

Yep.

So your level, your plateau will always be at the lowest common denominator. And secondly, if you have an underminer that starts to control influence over people, you have potentially a security risk going on there.

Great. So with that, thank you again for watching the video. And if you like that video, you'll also like the book that I've recently published, the Human side of Cyber. You can get it, it's free. So you just have to provide me with the details and I will send you a copy of the book. Next video, we're going to be talking about the silent treatment game that people play. So with that, stay tuned and thank you for watching.

Thank you.