FMC Fast Chat: Fighting for Press Freedoms with Dan Shelley, RTDNA

Dan Shelley is executive director of the Radio Television Digital News Association and Foundation. Much of his time is now devoted to fighting for press freedoms, and that's a topic of our Fast Chat today.

FMC Fast Chat takes you inside the news so you can be in the know in 30 minutes. Hosted by Fair Media Council CEO and executive director Jaci Clement, Fast Chat features notables in news, media, and business.

Hi, Dan.

Hey, Jaci, how are you?

Good, thank you. Let's ease into the chat today by you telling us a little bit about what the Radio Television Digital News Association does. So what do you do all day?

Sure, and thank you for having me on. It's great to see you again. RTDNA was founded in 1946, and we are the world's largest professional association devoted exclusively to broadcast and digital journalists. We do that in 3 main ways. One is by recognizing outstanding responsible journalism. We are the Murrows people and administer the Edward R. Murrow Awards.

Mm-hmm.

The second is by providing professional development and training to journalists at all levels of their careers, from students to senior executive. And the third, and this is the area where I spend much of my time these days, is on protecting the First Amendment. and defending against all attacks on the First Amendment and its guarantee of freedom of the press and the press's obligation, constitutionally enshrined obligation, to serve their communities by seeking and reporting the truth.

Okay, so it's twofold. We've got the ability for journalists to do their jobs, but also the reason why they do their job is to keep the public informed and their right to know.

Exactly. And, you know, journalists do play a critical role in society, in that they shine a light on problems in their communities that otherwise may have gone unnoticed. And when they do so, the stories that expose those problems often serve as catalysts for positive change.

Absolutely.

Obviously, the print industry has gone through some serious economic challenges, even pre-COVID, but exacerbated by the year of COVID 2020. Broadcast, local broadcast news has, has really flourished despite COVID. I mean, the industry had to completely reinvent itself, obviously, because of, of the pandemic. But then the racial reawakening movement that occurred following the death of George Floyd, the outrage over the death of Breonna Taylor in Louisville, Kentucky, and other similar cases, really demonstrated 2 things. Number one, the need for a robust news media to chronicle the events and to keep track of what public officials and law enforcement agencies are doing on the— in the public's name, on the public's behalf. And secondly, to shine a light on this social debate that really reached critical mass. So 2020, while very challenging from a COVID perspective has also once again shone a light on the importance of journalism in American society.

Back up just one minute here to talk about the training of journalists, because you offer that. Are you seeing a lot of younger journalists coming in for training?

Absolutely. And, you know, it starts at journalism schools predominantly, where enrollments Largely speaking, generally speaking, have been trending upward.

Okay.

Over the past 4 or 5 years, to levels that really hadn't been seen since the days immediately post-Watergate back in the 1970s. So yeah, there's a lot of training to be done for journalists at that level. But the journalists who are already working and already professional journalists at all levels of their career, We found 2020 to be particularly— I won't say challenging, though it was in many ways, but we found a need to pivot a bit in our professional development training to areas such as collaborating in the COVID world, where everybody's remote and in Zoom windows, and also dealing with stress and mental health issues. which were exacerbated by COVID and remote workflows, but also by the civil unrest that seemed to exist in all 50 states and communities large and small in all kinds of forms. And some of it was violent, some of it was, was not particularly safe for journalists. So we provide safety training as well. It's been a challenging time, but a rewarding time as well.

I imagine, though, you do a fair amount of traveling. Today you're coming to us from Missouri State University. So you do have your ear to the ground on what's happening across the country on how journalists are doing their jobs.

That's right. What I missed most during the year of COVID was traveling because our association is based in the National Press Building in Washington. I live in New York City. And in pre-COVID times, and now I'm finally getting back to some semblance of what pre-COVID times were like, I would spend about half of my time when I wasn't traveling back and forth between New York and Washington, traveling the country. I'm in the Midwest today. I often speak to university journalism programs. I speak to state broadcasters associations across the country. to regional journalism associations, particularly in the Midwest and on the West Coast, some on the East Coast as well. But I love to travel. And I love to put my finger on the pulse of what's happening beyond left coast and the East Coast, as it were.

You mean there's more to the country than that?

I love to be in flyover country. I love, I love it out here.

And what kind of questions do the students there have for you?

You know, it's interesting. I've spoken to a number of classes this week at the journalism program here. And they're very, very astute and adept questions about media ownership and media consolidation and the news deserts, as some call them, in the newspaper industry.

Yeah.

And the large swaths of America that are underserved by print journalism, and the role of broadcast and digital journalism in trying to fill those voids with more hyperlocal journalism and information. That's become very, very important.

It's actually great that technology allows us to be able to bridge that gap finally. But now let's delve into the main issue at hand here, which is It's early May, so world press freedoms are always topical right now. What is it that's going on in the United States that leads you to have to fight for press freedoms in this day and age?

Well, Monday, May 3rd, was World Press Freedom Day. It was first designated by the United Nations a few decades ago. One of the most gratifying things that occurred on World Press Freedom Day this year was that the President of the United States issued a statement in full support of press freedom and the First Amendment and the role of journalists in a democratic society.

Well, that's a bit of a change.

That's a significant change, a huge change. We're also expecting— and, you know, I mentioned that I spend a lot of my time working on press freedom issues these days, most of my time. And I've been working for months with members of Congress on Capitol Hill and their, their key staff members to push for legislation that would make it somewhat easier for journalists to do their jobs, not because journalists deserve special treatment. I'm not suggesting that in any way, shape, or form. But because the role of journalists in society is so critical. You know, Jaci can't show up at every town council meeting. Jaci doesn't want to be in the middle of a protest to see what is going on and how the police are, are performing their duties. That's, that's the role of journalists. And it's a role that we take very seriously, and that we're very eager to be able to serve the public by fulfilling. But it's become increasingly challenging over the last few years in particular. In 2017, for the first time in its history, the Committee to Protect Journalists, which is the international watchdog for journalism safety issues, partnered with us and about 2 dozen other press freedom organizations in starting to track attacks, assaults, arrests targeting journalists in the United States, something traditionally they had only done overseas in other countries. So that tells you how the mood has changed and how the paradigm has shifted. So in working with key congressional aides and key members of Congress in Washington, they're on the precipice of introducing sometime this month, we expect, 2 pieces of legislation.

Okay.

One is a reintroduction of the Journalist Protection Act. And the Journalist Protection Act was first introduced in 2017. It went nowhere in the Senate. Now, it's about to be reintroduced. And what the Journalists Protection Act would do very quickly is it would make it a federal crime to assault and/or cause bodily harm to a journalist while that journalist was performing his or her duties.

What, what is it now? Is there any rule in place at all?

Well, it depends state by state and jurisdiction by jurisdiction within each state.

Okay.

Essentially, what the Journalists Protection Act would do, it would give federal prosecutors the ability to prosecute people who physically attacked and harmed journalists if local prosecutors declined to do so.

Okay.

So it would just add that extra layer of protection. In many cases, when journalists are assaulted, Now, there are local prosecutions, but in some cases, local prosecutors have declined for some reason or another to pursue it. This would give the Justice Department that ability.

Okay.

The second piece of legislation is one that we have been championing, championing.

Yeah.

And it is called the Right to Record Police Act of 2021. And they're still, still working out the final details. Among various congressional staff offices. But essentially what the Right to Record Police Act would do is to make it an unambiguous right guaranteed under federal law for citizens, including journalists, lawfully to record the activities of police, subject to reasonable time, manner, and place restrictions. New York State already has such a law in place. A lot of local police jurisdictions have such regulations in place.

Mm-hmm.

If you watched the Derek Chauvin trial recently, you would have seen they've actually presented in evidence, the prosecution, the Minneapolis Police Department policy that guarantees citizens the right unequivocally to, and unambiguously, to record the activities of law enforcement, And as we all know, Darnella Frazier and her iPhone video is likely what led more than any other factor to the conviction of Derek Chauvin in the death of George Floyd. So the problem, however, having said all of that, is that not every state, not every local jurisdiction has such regulations or laws in place. And when you look at the federal appeals court circuits around the country, only half of the federal appeals courts have ruled that citizens have this unambiguous right. The other half have been moot or silent so far. So there's no viable pathway to get this to the US Supreme Court for an ultimate ruling because there's no disagreement so far among the circuit courts of appeal.

Okay.

And typically, for the Supreme Court to accept the case, there has to be a disagreement in rulings between 2 or more circuit courts of appeals. So that's not a viable way to go. The best way to go, in our opinion, is through federal legislation. With the current makeup of the House and Senate, we think we have a good chance of getting something passed. Though, as I indicated, there are still discussions underway on Capitol Hill about the best way to enforce this unambiguous right once it's codified into federal law.

Okay, let's talk about reasonable, though. I think that's the key word in this. Can you give us some examples of what people could and couldn't do?

Well, it varies by jurisdiction, and we saw during the post-George Floyd demonstrations and protests and civil unrest, we saw some law enforcement agencies respect the rights of journalists, which they should. But far too often, we saw law enforcement officers and agencies wantonly and brazenly confiscating citizens' iPhones or cell phones, professional camera equipment, smashing it in the street, We've seen journalists arrested while complying with law enforcement requests to move on to the sidewalk, or to move on to a specific area where the police would like them to go.

Okay.

We've seen journalists actually chased down by police and tackled and arrested, even though they were clearly identifiable as journalists, simply because they were recording the activities of police. So it's a problem in many parts of the country. It's even— I mentioned that New York State already has a law that guarantees citizens' and journalists' right to record police. But New York State has a law, but in New York City—

Mm-hmm.

In Rochester, where there was a racial reawakening moment or two. In Buffalo, there have been documented cases, and in other parts of the state of New York as well, of law enforcement completely disregarding that law and wantonly interfering with journalists' and citizens' right to record their activities.

All right, so from the side of the argument from the police, what, what are their reasonings? Do they believe they're within their rights, or maybe they're not aware of what a journalist's rights are?

In some cases, I have to believe that they're just not aware. And that's a training problem in their, their various departments. But you cannot convince me that the NYPD, for example, you cannot convince me that the Buffalo Police Department, the Rochester Police Department, you cannot convince me that they are not aware. They should be aware. I believe they are aware of the state law that was— and by the way, the state law has not been a state law for that long. It was signed into law by Governor Cuomo post-George Floyd amongst all of the police reform legislation that was passed by the state legislature in New York last summer and early fall. So it's hard for me to believe in New York that law enforcement is unaware.

Okay.

In some cases, it's, it's just a new heightened level or heightened manifestation of the ongoing tensions between police and journalists that we've seen for years, particularly in the city of New York. It's nothing new that the NYPD has not been the kindest to journalists by and large. And for many, many years, fully credentialed journalists credentialed by the Deputy Commissioner of Public Information of the New York Police Department, NYPD, they would be mistreated, they would be corralled into specific areas far away from crime scenes or accident scenes, while other members of the public could get as close as they want. I mean, there's been ongoing friction for decades. And I'm not presumptuous enough to believe that the Federal Right to Record Police Act would, would help resolve some of those issues and longstanding tensions, but it can't hurt. And it would give journalists and regular citizens too yet another mechanism, because in its current form— and again, it's subject to revision before being introduced— In its current form, the Right to Record Police Act would give citizens the right to sue federal, state, local law enforcement agencies for interfering with their right lawfully to record the activities of police.

Okay. Are you finding that the issues that are popping up surrounding this have been exasperated by social media?

Um, maybe. I think, you know, RTDNA at its core is a First Amendment organization. And we believe every citizen has the right to gather information and to exercise their First Amendment rights of freedom of not just the press, but freedom of expression and freedom of speech. There are restrictions to every freedom, as we know, you can't yell fire in a crowded theater, etc., etc.

Right.

But I think social media, while it has been so good at connecting people, it also has a dark, soft underbelly that causes a lot of social harm in some cases. And in many countries around the world, countries I've been to, such as Russia and India, social media has played a very very negative role in spreading— in helping to spread disinformation, which is the knowing spread of inaccurate information, and misinformation, which is the unwitting spread of false information. And in other countries, that's led to rioting and deaths, and it's just horrible. We've not quite reached that level yet in the United States. But But while everyone has a right to say what they want to say, things that appear on social media should be taken with a very large grain of salt.

What kind of timeline are we looking at in terms of both of these issues?

Well, my hope and belief as of the moment we're recording this, this podcast is that these— one or both of these bills will be introduced sometime in the month of May 2021. And then at that point, it will be up to the House and Senate Judiciary Committees and their chairs as to the timing of when they're actually acted upon. The, the current Congress, as you know, runs through the end of 2022. So we've got a little time in grade that we can build up here to get something done between now and the end of next year.

Okay, I'm curious, the pushback to both of these issues. What is the other side's argument that we don't need either of these acts?

On the Journalists Protection Act, it's that, well, journalists are like every citizen, they already are protected against assault by existing state and local laws and ordinances. So why do you need a federal law to do something. It's the same argument you hear when people oppose hate crimes laws. Okay, it's already against the law to assault somebody. So why should they get in more trouble if they assault somebody because it's, it's a hate crime motivated kind of situation?

Got it.

So I'm not equating the two, but I'm saying it's the same argument against JPA, Journalist Protection Act, that you hear in those cases. On the Right to Record Police Act, it's a little more complicated because there is not much appetite on Capitol Hill right now to provide incentives to police departments in the form of additional federal funding. The original draft of the Right to Record Police Act would have rewarded state and local police agencies for complying with with the law by giving them a small percentage in additional federal funding each year. Well, the reality that we've run into is there's very little, if any, appetite on Capitol Hill to give police agencies more money at this particular moment—

Mm-hmm.

When the post-George Floyd era and the racial reawakening conversations are going on. So that's what's being worked on right now, not to get too inside baseball about it, Yeah. The staffs in the Senate and the House are both working to try to find, all right, what incentive can we give to local law enforcement? We've got the stick in the form of the right to sue anyone who doesn't— anyone whose right to record police is violated. We need a carrot as well, particularly for local and state law enforcement. What will that carrot look like, I guess, is the best way to put it. That's, that's, that's where the conversations are at this moment.

Okay. So if you're successful with both of these acts, what's next, then? What's the next step in this equation?

Well, there will always be some level of threat to, you know, a lot of people historically have said the public's right to know, and I agree with that 100%. But I'd like to say, it's the public's need to know that has always been under assault in some form or another, and has always been threatened in some form or another. It's become very popular. By popular, I mean widespread, not necessarily popular like, yay, I love that idea.

Mm-hmm.

Among local officials all across the country who felt empowered and emboldened by the previous administration in Washington to be resistant to the news media and to press inquiries for things that had historically been routine, like routine public records requests, routine access to public meetings. State open records, some states call them sunshine laws.

Mm-hmm.

And we are seeing more and more restrictions in states across the country to access to public records, access to public meetings. And it's becoming more difficult in many places around the country for journalists and the citizens they serve to get access to that publicly funded, publicly owned information that often is critical for the public to know so that the public can make decisions that will improve their communities.

Now, how do you stay on top of all this? Do you rely on the journalists that are members of your organization?

We rely on journalists that are members of our organization. We frequently partner with other press freedom groups who may become aware of a situation in a particular location around the country. that we haven't become aware of, or we're often alerted to these situations that we make our partner press freedom groups aware of. And we work very much in concert with each other when it makes sense for all of us. For example, in the last week of April, I signed on to a letter on behalf of RTDNA with more than 100 other press freedom and other groups a letter to Attorney General Merrick Garland, urging him to include treatment of the news media in the Justice Department's new reviews of the Minneapolis and Louisville police departments, which stemmed from the George Floyd and Breonna Taylor cases.

Yeah. Okay, good for you. That's amazing work. And the collaboration of everyone coming together makes it so much more powerful.

You know, yeah, absolutely. And the same thing happened during the Obama administration, or something very similar. You know, for all the criticism President Trump got into for fake news, fake news, enemy of the people, enemy of the people, no one that we're aware of at the highest levels of the Trump administration ever ordered the arrest of a journalist.

Yeah.

There were federal law enforcement officers and agents that arrested journalists. But no one at the highest levels of the Justice Department or the White House that we're aware of ever ordered the arrest of journalists. The Obama administration at its highest levels did order the arrests of journalists.

Yeah.

In, in cases where journalists had gotten confidential leaks of classified information, journalists were threatened with jail, a few journalists were put into jail. So our association, in concert with many of our partner freedom— press freedom organizations, met with then Attorney General Eric Holder and got him to rewrite the department— the Justice Department regulations so that federal law enforcement could go after journalists to try to find the source of leaked classified information only as a last result, and then only with the personal approval of the Attorney General.

Okay.

And despite when Jeff Sessions was appointed Attorney General by President Trump, one of the first things he said was he was going to review those Holder rules about going after the news media, but he never actually did. So those rules still exist. And we are going to hold Merrick Garland's feet to the Eric Holder fire, if you will, to make sure that those regulations remain in place and that journalists are pursued by federal law enforcement only as a last resort.

Okay.

Last resort.

Got it. Now, I've heard from plenty in the Washington press corps about just how tough the Obama-era rules were, but yet little was said of it.

But because no one imagined at the time that, uh, the United States government would actively pursue journalists until they did. And when they did, uh, we and other press freedom groups responded accordingly and were able to get calmer heads to prevail in, in the form of Eric Holder, President Obama's first Attorney General. And as I mentioned, the Trump administration never did change those rules, despite indicating that they wanted to. We're pleased so far, even though we're barely 100 days into the Biden administration. But I will tell you, the Biden administration is a lot tougher to cover than the Trump administration was. Because it's much more disciplined in terms of message control.

Okay.

And the White House correspondents I've spoken with, some of whom are members of our association, they, despite all of the perils of covering Trump, particularly at his rallies around the country, despite all the perils of covering Trump, his White House was— it would leak like a sieve, and you can get juicy scoops every day to the point of exhaustion for a lot of journalists. Yeah, I mean, the lid was never on in the Trump administration, right? Because you get a tweet at 2 in the morning, or you get a leak from a disgruntled administration aide about something that was going on or being contemplated. The Biden administration is extremely disciplined.

Now, I'm going to change gears on you a little bit here. because we have a question. The question is, what steps do you feel need to be taken by the industry to help regain the public's trust in journalists?

Well, there are a lot of things, and that's a great question because it's a significant issue. The trust in journalism has been eroding slowly for many years, exacerbated by the administration we had in power until January 20th of this year. And there are several things that news organizations can and should do to regain trust. First of all, the good news for local journalism is that public opinion surveys consistently show that while— and I hate to use this expression almost because it's kind of trite, but it's very true and apt in this case. You know, people always used to say, I hate Congress in the aggregate. But I sure like my representative.

Right.

And now people often say, I hate the media, the news media in the aggregate, but I sure like that John Smith who gives me the news at 11 o'clock every night on Channel 2 or Channel 4 or Channel 5 or Channel 7.

Yeah.

And the same is true. So to your question specifically, what must newsrooms do? Be as transparent as possible, not just about what they report, but about how they report it. Show the public, demonstrate to the public how the sausage is made. It's not always attractive. It's not always a pretty picture.

Yep.

It's not always pleasant, but it's critical. If, for example, and this sounds very simplistic, but I think it's a very important principle. If you're doing a story as a journalist on a scandal at City Hall and you try to call the Commissioner of Sanitation, 12 times to get a comment, actually show your reporter on the phone making the call to, you know, proof of life kind of thing to show that you actually did make the call to try to get a comment from fill in the blank public official. The other thing about transparency is that you have to own up to your mistakes. And you have to own up to your mistakes promptly. You have to admit and clarify and correct the mistakes with the same prominence in which they first appeared, either in print, on radio, on television, in digital. And then you have to own— you have to hold those responsible for the mistakes accountable. You have to disclose to the public how the mistake was made, why the mistake was made, who made the mistake, and how you held that person accountable. That's the only way— and those are the only ways, I should say, that the, the fourth estate has any reasonable chance of regaining public trust.

Okay, and apologize when you're wrong, right?

Absolutely, without question and without hesitation.

Okay, one more question as we have to wrap up already, and this is the hardest question of all. You ready?

Okay.

What's the best part about being Dan Shelley?

Oh my gosh, the best part about being Dan Shelley is that You know, I'm a lifelong journalist. I was a working journalist for many years in one of the smallest markets in the country and the largest market in the country, New York.

Yeah.

And now I get to travel the country and travel the world and speak as an advocate for journalism, and as a representative for journalists, and for the public, because journalists, as I've said many times in this conversation and say many times in other conversations, journalists exist to serve the public. And I'm one of the guys who gets to go around and preach that gospel, if you will, and help explain to people why journalism is essential to our democracy, and help journalists do a better job of fulfilling their responsibility to seek and report.

The Fair Media Council is a 501 nonprofit organization advocating for quality news and working to create a media-savvy society. For more information about the Fair Media Council and upcoming Fast Chat shows, check out fairmediacouncil.org. This podcast is a part of the C-Suite Radio Network. For more top business podcasts, visit c-suite-radio.com.