How Social Media is Toxic to Women & Girls

FMC Fast Chat takes you inside the news so you can be in the know in 30 minutes.

Hosted by Fair Media Council CEO and Executive Director Jaci Clement, Fast Chat features notables in news, media, and business. Social media and its impact on women and girls is our topic today. I'm Jaci Clement, and thank you for joining me for this episode of FMC Fast Chat. Our guest today is expert Kara Alaimo. She is a communications professor as well as a frequent contributor to CNN Opinion. And Kara, start off, thank you for joining us today on this very important topic.

My pleasure.

So I know you have a new book out on the topic, which is very exciting as well as very timely. And I want to make sure before we end this session, because it's only 30 minutes and there's a lot to cover, we give some tips to parents, okay?

Absolutely. Well, my book that's just out is called Over the Influence: Why Social Media Is Toxic for Women and Girls and How We Can Take It Back. And I have lots of advice for parents in this book. So the first chapter of my book is called Girl Meets Instagram, and it's how social media affects teen girls. But I would say the advice I offer in this book is applicable to kids of all genders.

OK.

So one thing I say to parents is talk to your kids, check in with them on what they're seeing on social media. I actually think it's a really great idea to sit down and scroll with your kids and look for content that interests them. Look for content about their hobbies. One of the things that I found when researching this book is Social media can be deadly for teens, I believe. And I also believe it can be a lifeline for kids. And so I think it's ultimately all about how our kids use it. And the stakes are too high for us not to help them get it right.

I think— Yeah.

A lot of parents are worried because they themselves don't know how to use TikTok or how to use these other platforms. That's okay. You can still help your kids without knowing how to create a TikTok yourself. And so, you know, one big thing I talk about is the fact that kids can fall down rabbit holes of toxic content. One of the stories I tell in my book is a woman named Vivian who says that she got her eating disorder on Instagram as a teenager. She posted a picture of herself doing a handstand because she loved yoga and fell down this spiral of toxic fitspiration content. And so I think it's important to talk to our kids about why we should avoid that kind of very negative content. But also, if you sit down and scroll with your kids and help them find things they're interested in, algorithms are of course programmed to show people more of what they think they like. And so if you start searching for something about your kid's interest, your kid's gonna see more of that, and they could develop interests that turn into careers. They could get involved in really important causes. So there is all sorts of ways for them to use social media in healthy ways. I think particularly for girls, we know that kids are confronted with a lot of very negative body image content. And I am particularly concerned about visually oriented platforms like Instagram that really put the emphasis on people's faces and bodies. And so one of the things I think it's important to talk to our kids about is just why we shouldn't judge anyone, including and especially ourselves, for their bodies.

Now, something like that though, I would think that begins even before they get online, like the household that they're raised in, right?

Oh my goodness, yes. So I have 2 things to say about that. One is, yes, you have to instill these values when kids are young. And think about what they're going to be facing in the future when they're young kids. And you talk about things like why we don't judge people for our appearances, why we value people regardless of who they are and what they look like. Um, Kate Mann is one of my favorite authors. She has a new book out called Unshrinking about our society's fatphobia, and she talks about scrolling through Instagram with her very young daughter and looking at images of people's bodies, people of all races and sizes and all identities, and not commenting commenting on how they look, but rather just saying that she's glad that they're in the world with us. And I thought that was really beautiful. And, you know, if you instill really strong values in your kids, then they can go on to display them online when they're older. But the second really important piece of this is that you have to unite as parents when your kids are really young. So my kids are still very young. And I'm already talking to the parents of their friends because I know that we have to unite and decide not to allow our kids to have phones until they're older. And if we don't, you know, once my daughter's friends all have phones, I'm not winning this battle. And so we've got to get on the same page early on.

Okay. Now I know you did mention the visual social media channels. What can you rank them as? What, which do you think are the most toxic?

So, you know, a lot of this is about how people use platforms. And so I think, you know, I'm concerned about visually oriented platforms like Instagram in particular, but some people can have very positive experiences on Instagram. I'm on Instagram trying to promote my book. Um, and so, um, ultimately I think it's about teaching kids and, and telling ourselves to just steer away from these images of fitspiration content and body content that don't serve us well. Um, because it's easy. Even as an adult to lose sight of the fact that so much of what we're seeing on these apps isn't real. One thing I call on tech companies to do in my book is to tell us when photos are altered. And I think if we had that constant reminder that what we're seeing is the heavily filtered version of people's lives and bodies, it would be a reminder not to judge ourselves Against them. I talk in my book about how the so-called Instagram body is like generally only achieved through surgery. It's not what people generally look like, but we need to be reminded of this.

Yeah. And I, I think just kind of going along on that point now, on the topic of influencers themselves, I mean, you know, we, we see these very glamorous photos of these people in very luxurious types of settings, and I wonder how much of that is really true.

I think very little of it. We all know— I know that being a mom is a very messy endeavor. Um, but I think to be fair to people like momfluencers, right, or these women who portray these perfectly charming lives with these pristine homes and well-behaved kids, the thing that you have to remember is that these women have huge incentives to do so because that's how you get lots of followers and that's how you attract brands sponsorships. So no one wants to buy products so that they can look like harried women with messy homes and misbehaved kids, right? As I say in my book. Um, and so, you know, I, um, while I think that some of this content can be bad for us, I am hugely sympathetic to these women themselves. Um, you know, today most teens say that they'd like to grow up to be influencers. I think it's the new version of the American dream, and I think they have no idea what it's really like. So the reality is that most influencers are women who never earn enough to support their families. Um, you know, it's not people who are, you know, out-earning everyone else in the neighborhood like, um, people often perceive. Um, they're often hugely exploited by brands. There's a huge pay gap between men and women who work as content creators. Um, and a lot of the women who are influencers today are women who I think, you know, 15 years ago would have been freelance journalists writing for, say, a women's magazine. But now with the advent of social media, all the money that used to pay those women through advertising, right, now goes to Facebook and Google. And so magazines and newspapers can't afford to pay freelancers a decent rate. And we all know what kind of an economy, you know, we live and work in, where, you know, if you're a mom, it can be incredibly difficult to find a job with flexibility to pick up your kids at school in the middle of the afternoon. And so a lot of these women are women who are trying to earn a living in a flexible way while also taking care of their families. And I'm just incredibly sympathetic to what they're up against because I think it's incredibly hard for them.

Just curious, is there any information on what the average influencer actually makes?

So it depends on what you define as an influencer, right? But most content creators never earn above the federal poverty level. You know, and so there's so many people who are trying to be an influencer. And so therefore they think, you know, you've got to do some of this stuff for free, right? You've got to do some sponsored content for free or for very low prices to start to build some experience. And then the other challenge for them, of course, is that you can't just have all sponsored content. You have to look authentic. So you have to surround that by tons of really beautiful, highly professionally produced non-sponsored content. Brands tend to pay women very little. And also, you know, social networks are constantly changing their algorithms. So you might think you've got it figured out and you know how to get lots of likes on a video, and Instagram could change that on you tomorrow, and there's just absolutely nothing you can do about it. So it's also very, you know, highly unstable.

Got it. Okay. Now you, you talk about body image, but If we go further into this discussion, I think at some point we really need to talk about mental health issues that are arising from social media. What are you seeing for young girls in that regard?

So there have been studies done. My favorite was done by the Center for Countering Digital Hate, and they pretended to be a young girl searching for content about mental health and body image. And, you know, you see on platforms like Instagram and TikTok, within minutes these platforms are showing teen girls things like ads for weight loss drinks and tummy tuck surgery and lots and lots of very toxic content. And so that is one of my biggest concerns, that teens fall down these rabbit holes and end up in these communities or end up feeling like they do not measure up because they do not have glamorous lives like their friends. And so while I think social media can be a force for good, I think unfortunately that is where we see a lot of the mental health challenges Yeah.

And is there really a big difference between how young girls are interacting versus young boys?

So the thing is that young girls care about their social relationships more. So I think that these things affect them more. There is research that tells us that young girls spend more time on social media, and particularly during puberty, the confidence of a young girl drops so much more than it does for boys. You know, I was telling my young daughter the other day that I had done another interview about my book and, you know, just talking to her about basic things like if someone asks you to do something and it makes you uncomfortable, what should you do? And she's a young girl, so she said, well, say no, as if I had asked her the most obvious question in the world.

Right.

When she turns 13 though, will that still be the case?

Right?

And so we know that the confidence of girls drops right at the time that they're joining these apps, right at the time that they're you know, going online and looking at other people's bodies and looking at other people's glamorous lives, and here they are stuck home in their bedrooms thinking that their lives just aren't that great and that they're not that great. Um, and I will say that, you know, Dana Boyd has done really fascinating research where she talked to American teenagers. Um, and, you know, we as parents often have this perception that teenagers just want to be on social media. Not so. Kids say they would much rather get together with their friends in person, and the reason they don't is because their parents don't let them and because they have overscheduled lives and they don't have transportation. And so I think a lot of parents think they're protecting their kids by saying, no, you can't go to that party.

Okay.

Which could sometimes be the case, but I think the reality is that if they're home in their bedroom interacting with a male predator on TikTok, they're potentially in a far, far more dangerous situation.

Yeah, that's a really interesting juxtaposition happening there. Yeah.

And I think the same thing is true for adults. You know, right around the time that phones and social networks cropped up, we saw huge decreases in friendships and increases in isolation. Marisa Franco says we live in a time of friendship famine. And this is, you know, this is devastating for people. Research shows that, you know, having friendships is more important to our health than even things like diet and exercise. We're talking about real friendships, right? Real friendships. Yeah, like the kind where you have coffee and talk about your life. And so it's not, you know, I mean, you could use Facebook Messenger to check in with a friend who's had a bad day, right? You can use it to bolster friendships. But I think and fear that what we're seeing is that a lot of people are going online and cultivating lots of online friends at the expense of spending time with even just a couple of people. Who are close to you, which is what you really need for your health.

Yeah. Okay. Now we talked about young girls, but what about women? When women go online, what's the impact there?

Oh my goodness. How much time do you have? So I talk about every aspect of women's lives in this book. Um, I'll mention a few of them. One is my concern with dating apps. Um, I think dating apps can be hugely dangerous for women. Um, some of it is catfishing. So these apps are matching women with people who aren't really real, right? It turns out these men are actually kind of being held as slaves in places like Cambodia by criminal syndicates and, you know, sort of forced to develop emotional relationships with women and then hit them up for money. Um, it's the fastest growing form of fraud in America. Um, I'm concerned about, you know, the mental health of women who use dating apps because so many women who I interviewed for my book told me they eventually stopped using them because they were just sick of being treated so terribly by the people they met. And a lot of research shows that when people think they have lots of options, they value the person in front of them much less highly. And so dating apps give the impression there's just always someone more to swipe on. And so I'm really concerned about that. I'm concerned about women's careers. So 3 academic studies, in addition to my own research, have found that when women use social networks to try to bolster their professional profiles, they end up with fewer followers, fewer reposts, and fewer resulting opportunities. Like speaking engagements than men in their fields.

Why?

Because people don't turn to women for expertise in the same way that they turn to men. It's implicit bias. But people are always surprised when I say this to them. You know, and so one of the big messages of my book is that, of course, if we as women all collectively decided that we were going to radically change how we use social networks, we could change social media and the world. In fairly short order. So one of the things I think we all need to do is make a conscious effort to follow other women and to repost other women. I am so concerned about this that I created a list on my personal website, caraalaimo.com, of feminists to follow. And it's just like 50 women from all different fields and walks of life. They're just the tip of the iceberg. But if you start following them, of course, algorithms will recommend more.

Right.

But I think it's hugely important for us to make a big effort to follow one another. And amplify one another's work, to post about issues that we care about. I also think employers should wake up to this reality, because if, if corporations realize that this were such a big problem, I think they could make a bigger effort to repost on their official social media channels the social media posts of women in their organizations, women at every level of their organization. Tech companies should wake up to this and start amplifying the voices of women experts more, um, because ultimately we need to change these perceptions.

Yeah, so I guess in some ways, even though it's new technology, it's old bias that's just coming back at us, right?

Yes, but I think it's worse now. So one of the arguments I make in my book is that social media has invited people to judge women more than ever before. So women have been judged for all eternity, but now on social media Um, you know, first of all, someone can create a video of you, a video of mom having a meltdown on the playground, and post it online, um, for the whole world to publicly shame them. And people have real incentives, monetary incentives, to do this, because if you can create a video that goes viral like this, you could sell the rights and make some money. Um, but, you know, more importantly, you know, when people post on social media, the whole world feels like they have an invitation to comment on what that body looks like, or whether she's authentic or fake. All these things that just sort of men generally don't, uh, receive to the same degree. Um, and so I think social media has really provided platforms for the increased judgment of women.

Okay. I'm wondering, do you see any upside to current, um, maneuvering by the tech companies? Um, any things being put into place that are actually meaningful?

You know, I've been writing about this since 2016 for CNN Opinion, and I finally told my editor, I've been writing about this for so long, we've seen no legislation. Social media is as toxic as ever for women and girls. You know, yes, I see tech companies doing small things like, you know, offering reminders when you've been online for a long time or making it harder for strangers to directly message children. And yes, those small things are great, but I think we're missing the bigger picture here, which is that these networks are hugely toxic for women and girls. And just, you know, basic things like these apps claim that they disallow hate and misogyny on their platforms. But, you know, these posts are all over their, their platforms. And when women report this abuse to social networks, they regularly say that they don't get responses or they get responses saying, you know, no, that rape threat did not violate our community standards. And so I think there's a huge disconnect between what these companies claim and then, you know, what is actually happening and very visible on their platforms.

Yeah, I know one of the current campaigns that Meta has undertaken is if you're under 16, you need a parent's approval to download certain things. But when I actually look at their customer base, if you're under 16, it's not a huge portion of their customer base either. So I wonder how effective that can be. Yeah.

I mean, I think we know kids lie about their ages. They log onto computers while their kids are sleeping. Kids are savvy. And so, um, you know, as a parent, I think my efforts are going to be focused on helping my daughters use social media in healthy ways. But I'd say, you know, I went into writing this book with my biggest fear being, how am I going to teach my kids how to use social media and protect them? And having written this book and reflected on it, that is no longer my biggest concern. My fear is that my daughters are going to have to live in the world that social networks have wrought. And I think in many ways, you know, we're seeing so much sexism and misogyny on social networks, and I think it's normalizing it, and I think it's spilling over offline. And I think that can help explain why it's become more common to Deprive women of rights and resources offline. Um, one of the things that really struck me was the CDC put out a report last year which found that between 2011 and 2021, so right at the time that social networks were taking off, there was a 17% increase in the percentage of teen girls who said they'd been forced to have sex.

Really?

And if you look at all of the violence against women that's happening Online, and you think about all of the research which tells us that people who witness acts of violence in media are more likely to commit acts of violence, I absolutely trace this back to what's happening on social media.

So it's almost as if the MeToo movement has spawned a backlash.

I think there's huge backlash to feminism right now. We know that every feminist movement results in backlash. But in addition to that, I think something else is happening. I think there's been a huge increase in misogyny and sexism on social networks just over the past few years, and it's permeated youth culture on TikTok. So, you know, now it's considered hilarious to joke joke about violently abusing a woman on a social app. You know, I interviewed an. Expert on this in London who pointed out that that is unique compared to other forms of extremism. On TikTok, people don't generally think it's hilarious to talk about beheading someone, for instance. And I think that the normalization of this is one of the things that, for instance, could explain the overthrow of Roe v. Wade. We've talked about all the other ways that that happened, right? And the right-wing effort that was funded over many decades But I think the piece that's missing from our public conversation is how what's happening on social media is normalizing the deprivation of women's rights, deprivation of resources to women. We've seen a huge backpedaling in congressional funding for childcare. Congress, after 25 years of bipartisan support for WIC, which helps pregnant women and women with young children feed themselves and their children, is now no longer willing to provide the funding necessary for that.

Yeah, and I can't help but wonder if we're going to get any traction with representatives who are as old as they are and not necessarily tech savvy like we need them to be.

Yeah, I always think, think back to that famous moment, you know, where a senator asked Mark Zuckerberg, how do you make money? And he responded, Senator, we sell ads. And it's just, I think there was less of that in the most recent Senate hearing on the impact that these tech companies are having on children. I think definitely, you know, members of Congress are getting savvier. They're also, you know, enjoying the spotlight more. You know, I watch these congressional hearings very closely, and I actually don't appreciate it when senators ask a question and then don't allow tech companies to fully answer it. You know, there's so much showmanship that they do. Um, but oh my goodness, I mean, we have, we have almost no laws governing tech companies. It is just absolutely remarkable.

Yeah, and I don't think the average person understands that. I really don't. Yeah, we talk a lot about the algorithms, but I don't know if the average person understands that either. You know, how they come to be and how they actually keep manifesting against you in certain ways. Yeah.

Yes. But I also think that tech companies use this to their advantage. And so I call this classic mansplaining in my book, where tech companies try to convince us that the way their algorithms are programmed is proprietary. It's impossibly complex. We could never possibly understand, and therefore we can't get involved, can't regulate it. Um, I think that's a word I probably shouldn't say on your podcast, but, um, I don't, I don't think it's true. I don't buy into it. Um, and I think that, um, that message is one of the things that has precluded the regulation that's just long overdue.

Yeah, because I don't think the average person is stupid by any means, but I do think they don't have the information they need to understand what's going on.

Yeah, and, you know, one thing I'd say is just remember everything you click on and consume is a vote. You know, attention is the new currency. You know, when you follow a person, you know, en masse, that determines whether that person gets a book deal later on. And so I think it's important to think about what we click on, one, because we're training algorithms, right, in what we like, but two, because that has a huge impact in, you know, who has a voice in our society and who doesn't.

Yeah, now I just want to go back to one thing you said in the beginning, which is when parents may not understand a technology, but you don't want that to stop them from engaging with their child and that technology. What can we do to build the parents' confidence so that they're not intimidated by these technologies?

So on my website, carahalaimo.com, and in my book, I have a whole list of tips for parents. But I'd say, you know, if you ask your kid to pull out TikTok and watch some videos with you, I don't know, at first the kid might think it's a trick question or whatever, but they're probably not gonna say no. Let your kids show you how these apps work and just have a conversation with them. And so I think, you know, you don't need to know how to make content, but you do have to be up on what's happening in the news. News. So, you know, if I had a teenager right now, I would be talking about the deepfakes of Taylor Swift that are all over social media, and I would be using that as a teachable moment to talk about why, one, we should not, you know, we cannot trust what we see on social media. We have to verify it. But also, two, why you should never, ever, ever engage with or create this kind of content. You know, when nude images of a woman are posted online, whether or not they are real, it puts her at greater risk of sexual assault and depression and suicide. It makes it harder to find a job and harder to date. It's devastating. And we have to teach our kids this because now it's easy for kids to create deepfakes themselves of, say, their classmates. Um, you know, I'd be reading the news and just knowing about the Sephora Kids and Botox Babies content that's all over TikTok right now, um, which shows tweens, you know, hoarding beauty products and You know, very young people getting Botox. You know, you got to be up on what's happening in the public conversation and having these conversations with your kids. And just one huge thing, probably the most important thing I'd say to parents, is that your kids have to be able to come to you. I interviewed an attorney for kids and women who have been sexploited and sextorted, and she said, you know, one of the most dangerous things that can happen is when Um, a girl is in a very bad situation, but she's afraid that if she tells her parent, her phone will be taken away. Um, and your kids have to know that you won't do that, and then you can't— you have to actually follow through on that.

Yeah. Oh God, that— it's so complicated, you know? It's so tricky. So, well, um, we need to wrap up because believe it or not, that's time already. Is there one takeaway That you want to leave us with?

I think my biggest takeaway of this book is we can change things. We all have to band together. We have to share information about issues that we care about, issues that affect our lives on our social platforms. We have to amplify other women and follow other women. And if we all started doing this, if we all started calling out, not on social media but offline, people who post sexist and misogynistic content, We could radically change things for the better for women, both online and off.

Okay, Kara Alaimo, thank you so much for joining us today. I want you one more time, the name of the book for people that are listening.

Over the Influence: Why Social Media Is Toxic for Women and Girls and How We Can Take It Back.

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