Creativity as a Life Force: The Intersection of Music, Movement, and True Health with Abel James

I'm very skeptical of any gimmickry. This idea of biohacking or shortcuts, using this one thing that's going to solve all of your problems, that can be very, very powerful for businesses to kind of like get an edge in there. But there's not that much new that's going to completely change the game. So it's worth putting in the education to just learn how to eat in a way that's honoring our ancestors and all around real food and then hopefully move in a similar fashion. What?

Welcome back to Everyday Ancestral. I'm your host, James Berry. Today's guest is Abel James. Abel is someone who I recently got connected to maybe like six months ago, and we've had a handful of conversations. I was on his podcast and every time I talk with him, I feel a connection of brotherhood. Conversation goes deep. And he's just truly a lovely person who is on mission. You know, he's on mission to help people and ground them and be a source, a resource for them as they are on their health journey. Abel James is a New York Times bestseller author, a top podcaster and a musician. He's a leading voice in health and technology for more than a decade. Actually, I think it's like 13 years now. He hosts an award winning podcast to help people across the world optimize performance, mindset and longevity. Please enjoy this podcast with Abel James. I am so honored to have you on here. You're one of a handful of people who I would say are the OGs of podcasting. You started this, what, in 2012?

Yeah, I actually started recording in 2011.

It's incredible. I mean, it's kind of rare in these days and time for anyone to say, oh, I've been doing this for 12 years or 13, whatever it is, you know what I mean? I think that was like our father's and grandfather's generation where, oh yeah, I've been at this job 19 years and I'm about to get a raise, you know. But you've been doing this a long time. I just have to immediately wonder, like, you have spoken to over 500 world renowned experts. How has that changed you? Because would you have said you're the expert when you started?

No, not really. Generalist and a passionate hobbyist is how I considered myself because I was mostly coming at this from my main sport, which was like marathon running and trail running and that sort of thing. And so as far as I was concerned there, like I was finishing pretty quickly, but nowhere near like elite pro level or anything like that so I was just kind of like getting into this as a strong passion. You know, I've always loved the world of movement and getting outside sports, that sort of thing. And for a while there, you know, it was kind of like nutrition was a necessary evil and something that you needed to figure out to perform at your best. So I think as the years went on and I talked to more people, especially, you know, extremely bright, intelligent, researched sorts of folks, I was surprised by the fact that if I sat down and like read their books, if I spent the weekend before going through their work and getting deep with it, then I kind of could hang with them. That did surprise me because I didn't consider myself like near their level, especially in their domains. But if you do your homework, you can really perform at an incredible level with some of the best world class people out there. And I think that's important to know. Like, you'll be bad at first, but. But if you put in the time, whether it's behind a microphone or on stage or practicing your craft, whether that's cooking or an instrument or a sport or something like that, you can get there. But it's really all through consistency. None of this happens like magic out of the blue.

There's a reason why we move towards health, right? Particularly this field of health. What's your reason?

So I shared that I've always been really passionate about being outside, moving, hiking and that sort of thing, which means you kind of need to keep your eye on the ball from a power to weight ratio standpoint if you want to be competitive. So that was kind of a driver when I was younger. But as the years went on, I found myself paying off my loans, working in strategy and management consulting as my, like my first career after college. One of the major projects that we took on was working with the federal government, department of education and looking at what improved outcomes in schools. And so for me, I wanted to be a part of the solution. I wanted to help, you know, it's a cliche, make the world a better place, but mostly you want to have like meaning and purpose in your life with like knowing that if you work hard there's going to be some payoff for the people around you or the people coming up, the next generation, whatever that looks like. And so I worked, long story short, on a project for more than a year identifying it and then kind of digging into the best schools out there that changed student outcomes from being dropouts or really low levels of performance to not only attending school, but then going on to continue Their education. What were the main drivers of this? What were the levers that the best performing schools used? Was the question we were trying to answer. So after more than a year, partnering up with all sorts of institutions and doing this work, we kind of found a number of answers. But the one that rose to the top, that seemed the most critical was the lever that changed student outcomes was food. Having high quality food available at the places where these kids were being educated. So for me, that was a huge surprise, you know, but I saw this pattern repeated over and over again after working on that project. Basically, the government decided not to pursue any of the action items that would, you know, if they put any of this into place, it could improve schools across the globe, not only in this country, but whatever. They basically put it on a shelf and said, don't talk about this anymore, like we've paid you. Move on to the next project. In my late 20s, that was devastating. And I'm like, I never want this to happen again. I don't want to feel like I'm wasting my time here on Earth. And so that's when I really started writing about health, sharing some of these things that I'd learned about how health and food can really change the state of our bodies, the states of our minds, and our performance overall. And then I was mad enough, you know, through my own personal experience, kind of losing my health in my 20s, gaining a bunch of weight, having thyroid problems and high blood pressure, high triglycerides, all that, turning that around completely through pure lifestyle factors, getting off all the pharmaceuticals. I was mad enough to start up my podcast and just keep going. And this is one of those things where, like, I've considered many times, like, should I just stop? Should I give up? Am I tired? Like, is this worth it to keep going? And it pretty much always is, because I can't imagine ever giving up the opportunity to spend quality, uninterrupted time with some of the smartest, most passionate, generous people on earth, talking about, how can we make all of this better through simple factors that are accessible to most people. So I love having these conversations, and I think hopefully I'll be able to do it forever.

It almost sounds like you haven't had to face any imposter syndrome or anything around that you're not a man. I'm a machine.

I go into machine mode. But everybody has the moments of imposter syndrome of just feeling like you're not up to snuff in one way or another, or, you know, at your weakest moments, when you're really tired, that's one thing. But also sometimes at your best moments, you don't want to show up for the workout. I don't want to show up for the interview. I don't want to have to do this today, or I'd rather just kick back or whatever. I think we all get there. But the thing that separates the people who perform at a high level from the more normal level of performance are the people who do it anyway, but also critically, schedule time to rest and recover from. From that activity, whatever that activity is. And so it's not generally this frantic thing where you're just out there all the time doing all these things. It's a very strategic and consistent approach to training and performance.

Is that something you learned, though? I can't imagine you knew that in your 20s.

Well, I learned a lot of this through music. If you think about the world of building a business or entrepreneurship or kind of starting your own thing, it's remarkable for musicians in some ways, because a lot of those skills are directly transferable. What I mean by that is, like, when I first tried to get gigs as like a teenager, for example, I would have to go into places and really put myself on the line. I'd have to introduce myself to people, put my heart out there. And, like, music is a very emotional thing, right? So you sharing your personal songs with someone, if they think that it's crap and they don't want you to play there or ever see you again, like, you could take that very personally, especially as a teenager. And so, like, putting yourself out there, recruiting a team of people to play with you, who you can compensate in one way, managing the finances of all of this. Like, this is what I started doing as an early teenager. Not just selling lemonade, but actually, like, getting out there playing gigs, live performances, trying to recruit people and get them to play with you, pay them, recruit people to come to the show as an audience, get a newsletter going, and try to, like, build this community around. It's like, I found that, like, shifting gears into the world of entrepreneurship after college and working in traditional business after a while, I was actually pulling a lot more skills from, you know, my experience as a kid trying to book and play gigs back then than I did from all of my Ivy League education and fancy time at private schools and all of that stuff. In fact, I needed to unlearn a lot of that in order to really excel in the world of business, because it gets hairy, especially when you're bootstrapping and you're going after it, you don't know what's going to work or what's going to stick. And you need to stay nimble and you need to stay humble because we all go through the hard times.

I find this mindset of what you just shared of like, you know, it wasn't my schooling that I leaned on, it was actually my bootstrapping. Well, what if we equate that to interpretation around health science? Where do you lean in terms of like, this is what I use to determine what's of value around health science and this is what I don't.

Yeah, I think it's much more about foundational principles and I'm very skeptical of any gimmickry. Not that gimmicks can't work. They can work a little bit in the world of health and other worlds, but specifically in the world of health, there's this whole cloud of hype and gimmickry, this idea of biohacking or shortcuts or just kind of like using this one thing that's going to solve all of your problems, that can be very, very powerful for corporations and for businesses to kind of like get an edge in there. But the people who have long careers, like I was just talking to Paul Check the other day, and some of these other people who have been like literally working in the world of holistic health and beyond for like four plus decades. And these people are extraordinarily skeptical of all of this gimmickry and gadgetry. Because the truth of the matter is it's really about these foundational principles of moving your body, never really letting yourself lose the standard of maintaining strength. It's not about like bodybuilding or going to the gym. It's about like having the standard of never getting weak and flabby and losing your ability to contribute to society and be useful. It's coming from this completely different perspective, right, than the typical world of health where you're just scrolling around on TikTok or Instagram and they're just like, hey, you need to eat broccoli for 28 days straight and that's going to solve all your problems. Or you need to put this on your face. You got to buy this thing. This consumer based self care is really not serving people as much as it's serving these corporations and these people with new gadgets and things to put out there. So yes, some of these new technologies can be extraordinarily useful and powerful for healing and that sort of thing. They can be really expensive. I've tried a lot of them 9 out of 10 of them are not worth it. And then every once in a while you do find some really cool cutting edge stuff. But then usually you find out that that cutting edge stuff only seems cutting edge to you because it's actually been around since the turn of the century, or it's been around in Russia for decades. And now something changed through technology or regulation that now we have access to it. So there's not that much new that's going to completely change the game. So it's worth putting in the education to just learn how to eat in a way that's honoring our ancestors and all around real food and then hopefully move in a similar fashion.

And to that point you kind of have focused on the wild diet. And before that it was kind of more paleo. What's the difference for you between the paleo and the wild? Is it kind of like vegan versus plant based?

Especially early in the ancestral health movement, there was a little bit of drama in terms of like what could be called paleo, even from a trademark standpoint and that sort of thing. Loren Cordain originally got some of the trademarks around the words paleo and paleo diet. You know, meanwhile, this world of ancestral health had really grown a lot bigger than just that or what that meant. And the trademark was originally there to sell supplements, which I found, like, just very ironic. And I have connected with Dr. Lauren Cornain since then and like talked through it, but there was a little bit of beef for a minute there. And so I'm just like, forget it. Like, I'm not even going to touch that word. I'll go over here. Because basically what we need is an alternative to the standard American diet that honors nature. And the word natural, even back then was completely abused beyond recognition. So natural didn't mean from nature anymore. And the word wild is something that, to me anyway, feels like it can't be owned. I don't own it. And it was, you know, in many ways a funny play on words to me, more than a diet book. I named the book the Wild Diet as an alternative to the standard American diet or whatever, the fitness bunny diets and the dieting down thing most people were expecting. So the wild diet represents basically the way that we would have been eating many generations ago before the advent of all this newfangled technology, industrial foods, artificial flavorings and all of the rest of that. So the closer that we can get to a world that honors nature, we works with nature instead of against it. I think the better off we're going to be. So basically, I'm not territorial about that word. I am territorial about some other words, like carnivores who also drink orange juice and eat vegetables. Sometimes it's like, okay, I see what you're doing here, but, like, you're just using words wrong. I'm not trying to come from a place of judgment, but I think it's doing people a disservice if you get too wrapped up in the identity piece of what you call the way that you eat. So I try not to be too specific about how anyone does all of this.

Well, you bring up a good point, though, is like, you know, you've been in this long enough to have an opinion, but also to see a lot of hypocrisy. One thing I'm really taken by from your podcast, and just from the time now I've gotten to know you, you have this deep, resonating, grounding voice, but you seem to have this tone of just optimism to it. Every time you talk, there's something like you just feel optimistic, like it's going to be okay. I think that's in itself could be a contradiction towards, like, all the things you're exposed to. So how do you navigate keeping that optimism when you're surrounded by hypocrisy?

That is such a great question, because I do get that a lot from people that are just like, I love how optimistic you are and this sort of thing. I'm like, really? Because if you look at the words that I'm writing for, like, a typical podcast intro, I'll spend usually a few hours, like, crafting a few really poignant questions and trying to summarize the interview and that sort of thing. And if you just read the words, maybe without me involved or whatever, as pure text, it's like, to me, super dark. And so maybe it's kind of the sparkle that I'm putting on top of it so that it doesn't come off as too dark and scare all the children away or whatever. And I'm trying to just like, wink at the audience a little bit and approach this from a place of kind of amusement. Because from a spiritual side, I do believe that everything is connected to God. Like, no, no one is better than anyone else. This is all kind of like a big sea of magic that we're in. And some people call it an illusion, some people call it a simulation. It doesn't really matter what you call it, but I think it is important to recognize that we're all part of it. And hating a piece of it doesn't really help. And so I try to kind of take a step back from the situation that we're in, especially in the world of health, and try to clarify a few of the issues and hopefully say something unique. The funny part about that though is that, like, as soon as I write something and put it out there, whether it's a particular word or a phrase or I'm kind of naming something, like within a few minutes or a few hours, like, I see so many other people saying exactly the same thing. And for a while there I'm just like, oh my God, like, look at all these copycats just kind of like parading around with these ideas that they're just kind of lifting from other people. And so it bummed me out for a little bit. But, you know, the longer I've done this, actually that is a huge win. Because if you don't care about credit and tracking back all this stuff to you in an ego based way, then anything that happens where people kind of like get a little bit of your memo, as long as they're getting the message right and then they spread it farther along, that is a huge win for humans in general. And so that's really what I'm after. And so maybe privately I'm more bummed out than I sound when I'm behind a microphone in public or whatever. I certainly think that's important too. Cause like the musician in me, from a writing standpoint, I appreciate the downs and I appreciate those feelings that are really tough to go through and process because it's just part of being human. I wouldn't want to give that up just so life could be easier. Because a lot of times the greatest thoughts that I have, the greatest pieces of writing and the greatest pieces of art come from that, really. So I think we all need to approach this with the understanding that things can be good and bad at the same time. And we don't need to be bummed out about it, even if it seems like a huge bummer.

It's very beautiful how spiritually grounded you seem. I mean, I find it fascinating that you've gone down this path of what's really creative. You know, you're an author, so you're into writing, you're a musician, you're dealing with music and creativity in that stance. But then you're also an orator, you know, a curator through your podcast and all of these tracks, there's no blueprint. So you're very much an explorer in your life. And yet you seem so grounded and you've been very successful at it. Where did this motivation and acceptance of your creative self come from? I mean, obviously you had it before you were 20 and you started the podcast or you wouldn't have even come to realizing you wanted to start the podcast.

I don't want to say it's always been there, but when I was a kid, just like cripplingly shy in a lot of ways, and it was through writing, performing, playing music and that sort of thing, that kind of like got me out of my shell and showed me that I can bring a lot of joy to other people's lives if I put in the time to developing skills on an instrument or putting on a show and then putting myself out there and putting on that show for other people and making them a part of whatever is being created. And so for me, like, once I experience that kind of transfer of energy, maybe you could say, where it's like multiplied coming from you and you share it with other people, if that makes sense. It made me want to create more and more often. And then from a personal standpoint, it's an incredible way, you know, writing and songwriting specifically is an incredible way to kind of capture these memories and feelings for a later time in life. Where, you know, writing a love song at 15 years old or something like that, when I listen to that now, I'm like, wow, like, what a totally different person. Yet I remember being there when I listened to this song especially, it's like viscerally I could feel being there again. And that is like some of the closest that I've ever come to like feeling magic in the world, you know what I mean? When you're transported through art, through words, through sound or through performance, it's always been a practice that's been there. As a performing musician who sometimes I've gone years and years playing hundreds of shows with many different groups or whatever, then I've taken years where I'm really not playing live. I'm still playing at home quite a bit and maybe recording and that sort of thing. But it's something that I have tried to stop doing and never succeeded in that, if that makes sense. Where it's like, sometimes I wish that I didn't need it, or I could get to that place in another way or through other types of work. And I think that there's just something extraordinarily powerful about a human sitting down and looking at a blank page and then filling it up with whatever comes out. And then having a piece of writing, music, art, something visual or whatever. Else might come out of that a business idea. I just think that that is so cool. That is the exact opposite of looking at YouTube, Twitter or Instagram and just scrolling the whole day away. You know what I mean? It's the opposite. So I want to spend as much time as possible, kind of spending my energy there. And then when you're out of that creative energy, you have to wait. You have to go to sleep or wait a few days. That's what makes it magical, is it's a limited supply. It's really delicate. And you have to be super careful with that reactive energy, the distracted thing where you could just get carried away down any rabbit hole or pulled away from what you're really doing. You have to be so careful not to get wrapped up in that while you're trying to work on whatever is precious to you from a creative standpoint. So I think it's like our responsibility as humans to, like, get there on a regular basis.

How did you learn to connect? Because clearly music is a portal for you, a connector. But how did you connect these qualities, these important, necessary qualities to an ancestral piece or to the more natural side of life? Like, did you grow up with that kind of awareness from your parents? Or when did you label, like, oh, no, no. I see that what makes life even better is when we connect to that ancestral part, because that's not common. I mean, particularly in today's day and age. As you mentioned, we are struggling to get our young ones off of screens. And yet you somehow knew, like, no, no, this is the answer.

Maybe now, but not then necessarily. But I was raised in that answer, if that makes sense. I was raised in the middle of nowhere and New Hampshire, much to my chagrin, because there wasn't enough action or things to do. And so I was super bored and so was everybody else. But I was very fortunate to grow up in a family where my father's side, they were all farmers. My grandfather Horace was one of the first organic farmers way back in the day, going hard against using all of these pesticides and chemicals that were coming out at scale during those years. And so this world where natural was the answer. And basically these chemicals are coming from war. We shouldn't be using these on our food. And that was kind of the ethos passed down. And so all the aunts and uncles were raised in that. And my grandmother almost lived to the age of 100 years old, but passed away just a few years ago. And she was a huge part of my life and had all the nieces and nephews and cousins and all this gigantic family. And so there was really a lot of pride in the fact that people brought food to the family functions that were grown by hand in their gardens. They cooked those pies. There was a pie competition, not officially, but every year there was really a competition between who was making the best pie. And we all kind of voted through word of mouth or whatever. And it was one of these things where, like, we took food seriously. It was like the highlight of every party. And we got together all the time in those tiny little New England towns and crowded into these old houses. And I just. It felt like I kind of grew up a few generations before a lot of the other people I later met who grew up in cities. My mother as well, I should say, was a trained nurse practitioner and credentialed as well, and worked in ers and that sort of thing. But seeing how. How much exploitation could exist in that system and how dangerous the incentives can be in that particular system of medicine, which is usually just trying to extract as much profit through the bodies that are moving through the system, she rebelled hard against that, started up her own practice, studied deeply how to heal people through herbal medicine, and then incorporate those herbs into clinical practice. And so she was digging through research, wrote a book about that. And so in many ways, I was kind of coming from that world, which has gone through different phases over the years, you know, like Weston A. Price, and the foundations and institutions built around that have been around for many decades and many other groups in the world of kind of natural health, real food, and that sort of thing. So there's a tendency for a lot of people to think that, oh, this is new, or someone owns it, or someone is the godfather of it or whatever. And that may or may not be true, but it's important to recognize that this has always kind of been there, but you do have to look for it. So, of course, like when I became a teenager and then went to these fancy schools or whatever, was taught different things about how, oh, no, science is better than nature. This is the way to do it. And whether it's through this pharmaceutical or through this pesticide or through this protocol, whatever it is. And so I thought that I was better than that world for a while. And it was through following that world and following my doctor's advice, when I first became a consultant and had fancy health insurance that I lost my health. I got fat and sick and developed those problems I was talking about before. And that's when I really had that come to Jesus moment where I was just like, oh, I'm wrong. I've been following the wrong advice too well. And that's what has gotten me sick. And then, you know, still from a place of ego, that made me mad enough to just go out there charging and really try to bring this message to as many people as possible with a blog and a podcast called Fat Burning Man. Just like silly. Tongue in cheek, like, I don't care. Make fun of me if you want. Like, this is the answer, and we can actually help heal people with this answer if you do take it seriously. So I like kind of combining the silliness of the approach of not being a credentialed doctor or something like that, but talking with serious credentialed professionals about these subjects. It gives me a lot of freedom in the conversation that someone who, you know is an MD doesn't really have. They have to be really careful about what they don't say. Sometimes they're paid for what they don't say. And I appreciate not being caught up in that. That whole world.

I met this scientist who works for the government. It was just a dinner party so I could talk to him, you know, candidly. And I said, so is there anything that you're doing that you wish you could talk about, you know, that you feel is a crime, that you're not getting to talk about it? And he said, well, it's not necessarily here in the US but there's things that are going on in third world countries that we have solutions for. We literally could go into that country, we could solve everything that they're struggling with, and we can't because it's military secrets. And he said, so that feels horrible. We see someone crying for help, we can help them, and we can't do it due to legalities and politics.

There are so many people there, and I can't imagine what that feels like or how to navigate through that. But people do. Dr. Casey means and Callie Means, they're kind of examples of that who have really exploded recently in terms of, like, how many people have heard of them. But sometimes you need to turn your back on your entire profession and become the black sheep or the enemy. And that's. That takes a lot of courage. And obviously you can take some hits for that. And people do. You gotta weigh it, you know, I wouldn't want to be a cog in a broken system that's hurting people. That's pretty easy to say, though, after being out of that for a while. And we all have to make compromises. We all have to Put a roof above our heads and take care of the people who we love and our responsibilities and that sort of thing. And that is easier said than done. So hopefully though, we can all trend toward work that is ultimately helping solve a problem instead of perpetuating these systems that we know are terrible for everyone.

You've been a beautiful model of what's possible. Like I said, I don't think you went down paths that were clear cut when you started down them. In many ways, I think you supported the definition of some of these paths. Paths life is its own credential. You mentioned I don't have this professional credential. So what credential do you have now after 13 years?

Hopefully it's trust. Hopefully people, enough people have heard my voice or seen me around and been like, I don't know, most of this stuff sounds kind of true. But like that one thing you said that that doesn't sound true. But then a few years later they come back, I was like, oh yeah, that, that was right. Like, interesting. And so like, there are lots of those experiences where hopefully I'm challenging my listeners and the people who are part of our community to come along and be a little bit more forward looking than a lot of the conversations that are happening out there. We all have to keep things interesting and I'm excited about what the future holds for all of us. I never have all of the answers. It's always a moving target. And I am fascinated by a lot of the people who have come to the world of health recently with guns blazing, like Matthew Leshak. I had on the podcast a few months ago and he wrote an incredible book called Fiat Food. He's a journalist who's been deep into the world of crime, investigating crime, school shootings, and just kind of these atrocities. For decades he's been doing this and so he's specialized doing these criminal investigations. And when he caught wind of what was going on in the world of food and medicine and how those things are connected and how that's also connected, connected to the monetary system and banking and all the rest of that, perpetuating these systems once more that exploit and hurt people, he is so much more pissed off than I am after doing this for 12 or 13 years than I am. So, like, that new energy is really important. What credentials do I have? Hopefully it's some level of reputation or trust. Even if people don't directly recognize me, maybe they'll recognize some of the ideas or like what my voice kind of sounds like and be like, oh yeah, that guy Like I can trust him maybe, because that's going to be the most important thing. Looking forward, I think now that we live in a time of AI generated content, voice cloning, you can get anyone in your family or like unknowns to public figures. You can create something that looks like it's coming from them, whether it's video, audio, text, whatever. So that's going to erode the trust that humans naturally have in each other through these digital interactions anyway, because you won't know if anything's true. We're already kind of there. But when you meet someone in person, at live events, at dinner parties, or you know them in personal relationships, whatever that is, I think that's going to become more and more meaningful. So we need to double down on that. So hopefully that's the most important credential that, that pretty much anyone can have now. Because especially post pandemic, it's difficult to trust a lot of these credentials and the credentialed professionals who are parading around saying, we have all the answers, look at our credentials. Because obviously that's not always, you know, lining up with the truth.

How do you trust all the science based facts, all the people that are saying, no, I only trust the science. If there's no trust, what do you believe? And maybe I straight up ask you, that is like, what do you believe? Anyone that looked at your life would say, okay, music, health. Clearly those are his two pillars, music and health. What connects those two for you?

To me, in many ways they're the same. If you're talking about training and you want to be good at running or weightlifting or basketball, you need to run drills and you need to show up every day and you need to put in the work and you need to stay fit once more. You need to have the right power to weight ratio, the right speed and endurance and stamina and that sort of thing. You need to train for those things. And that's exactly what music is. I think a lot of people have a tendency to think of music as being frivolous. Maybe that's because it's not compensated that well. But I think it is one of the most direct trainings that we have for the nervous system, keeping that performing at a high level. If you're talking about reflexes, athletes are kind of the top performers in that world of using their body and developing those reflexes and skills and strength and power and speed and that sort of thing. But on a more micro level, that's what musicians are doing with their hands for the most part, or with Their voice, it's acrobatic, it's very technical, it's fitness based and training based. And so looking at those two worlds, I love to see the parallels between them. And if you look at the world of music, for example, and compare that to the world of health, or you kind of use it as a metaphor, then there's no like new music or new instrument that's changed hardly anything in the world of music. I would argue in decades, maybe longer, you know, there have been critical things like sound recording. When that first happened, you were able to use wax and then record something and through these magical cylinders recreate a portion of that sound anyway, a thin representation of what that actual sound sounded like. So like that's a major development, like the first time we could do things like that. And then, you know, acoustic guitars turning those electric another huge step. But then ever since that, like the biggest thing that's happened is we went from downloads to streaming. We haven't really seen any major instrument, any major like technological development. That's, that's changed too much there. So my point is, I see health in a similar way. There's not going to be like some magical new supplement that solves everyone's problems or drug or food or anything like that. It's more like, no, you just got to like train for health and train for eating, that sort of thing. Like you train for basketball or train for, for music. You have to sit in a chair and learn and practice and then apply that consistency over time. This is not a popular answer. This is why, you know, not as big as a lot of those TikTok influencers. Well, that's one of the reasons. These are the real answers. And I think at least someone needs to give these answers. And thankfully, you know, we can have long form conversations and flesh some of these things out. The world of music and the world of health, to me both fall under the world of performance, if that makes sense. So they're also very much reliant upon each other to. You cannot be a musician with a long career performing at a high level if you're not super focused on your health. I know that violates the stereotype of all these doped up crazy rock stars who are just lucky to be alive and were born talented. So maybe that has happened over the course of time and some people have actually lived that way, but I really kind of doubt it. I think that's more of a marketing ploy and that's a sexy idea of a musician. It's basically like being a circus Performer, like, that's what musicians actually are. If you're putting on a tour and you're gone 10, 11 months out of the year, and you're, like, going up on stage, running around, jumping, just like doing all these moves for 2, 3, 4 hours every single day, essentially for years on end, you're basically a circus performer. And you need to be in shape and you need to eat right and eat for that performance. And so I see this all caught up in the world of performance. And also, you know, if you look a little bit more broadly, I think everything is kind of wrapped up in that world of performance. It's just for me, like, my particular areas of experience and interest tend to fall in the worlds of somewhere around music and somewhere around kind of like health, but not. Not the way that other people do health. Like outside sunlight, real food, not too much gimmickry or biohacking or, like, overachievement and that sort of thing. More about balance and kind of the Eastern way of thinking of a lot of this.

I would say it is interesting when you think about ancestral practices. I honestly cannot think of anything that's more ancestral than music and food. You could argue both are extremely necessary, but one is clearly functional. You know, if you don't eat, you're not going to survive. But I would actually offer that music was probably around. Obviously it was around before we could even talk, and it was around because it was also necessary.

I wrote a book called the Musical Brain that was kind of trying to answer this question, like, where does music come from and why is it there? Because, as you say, there's no clear adaptive function for music. It makes things better. It seems like. The way that I think about it, though, is it's primitive communication between humans and between animals as well. You can communicate with animals kind of musically through inflection more than obviously. So there's a difference between the content of what we say, that's just pure language and words, and the much more emotional sound and inflection and prosody and speed and rhythm of what we're saying and through those things. I am absolutely fascinated by that whole world because we're deeply affected by what we listen to and kind of like our media and sound environment. And it's really important, I think, to make that ancestrally informed as well, where you're listening to instead of traffic all the time, or just like city sounds, hopefully a bit of bird sounds too. You know, like going out there in nature and like, experiencing the quiet of that is so important. The world of music. It's one of those things where it's connected to so much in us that we don't directly understand. It's a subconscious process, but it's just about as primitive as it gets. And back in the day, like, if you were in one tribe and there were another tribe coming through, you most likely wouldn't speak the language that they spoke and wouldn't be able to directly communicate. But you could definitely communicate the gist of what you were saying through a drumbeat or through a song that someone sang. You could tell if it's a war beat. We all know the difference between an army marching and something that is meant to celebrate a feast or a wedding. Like, completely different sounds in our minds and in our bodies. Same thing for moving our bodies. So I think it's really important that all of us get more connected to the world of music. If you don't consider yourself a musician or a singer, like, try to just put that on for a second. Try to, like, go into beginner's mind, play with it a little bit. Because we all are. And the more connected we are to that, even if it's just a little bit, the better. Same thing with dancing. I'm a terrible dancer, but I know that it's extraordinarily important for us to just kind of use our bodies that way. And music and dance are really emotional exercise, if you think about it that way, and very cathartic in that sense. And so whether you resonate more with music or with dance or maybe with both, like, try to put that in your life, too, ideally with other people as well. It's not, like, necessarily meant to be only experienced alone. But a lot of this is based around the gift of being with community and dancing together, singing together, chanting together, Whether it's religious or kind of recreational, those both are kind of the same thing. It depends on how you think about it. But I think we can be a lot more intentional than most of us are, because if we're honest about it, we're kind of living in a sea of mediocre content. Like, musically, in terms of the movies that are on there, just, like, looking at a queue on Netflix of all the stuff that you kind of want to watch, but it's, like, not really worth it because it's not great. Alternatively, you can spend some of that time, like, going deep and trying to go into creative mode. And so I think we both have to go back and forth between those modes, because, like I said, that creative energy or that energy that you have to Train up is limited. And when you run out of it for the day, like sometimes you don't want to spend the end of the day, like reading another super intellectual book. You just need to kick back and relax a little bit. So going back and forth with those things is really important to you.

I have heard this said before, and I think this is very much what I hear you saying, is that if we were ever invaded by aliens, and I don't mean invaded like they're going to come and destroy us. I just mean if they ever came and they witnessed our society, they would actually look at us and say, oh, that music thing, that's interesting. Everything else we do would have no interest, but it would be like music. They tap something there that's universal, that's infinity. What? What is that?

I'm totally with you. What is that? I don't know. But I. I can say that the closest that I've had to a true religious experience has always pretty much had something to do with music. Whether it's listening, you can get there. But especially for me playing, it's like I. I'm just at my best and it's hard to get there and it's hard to stay there. But when you're truly in flow, it's like that, that is the thing that I'll miss the most if, you know, when I leave this earth. And hopefully you can continue that after you leave this earth too, but I'll miss it. For the past few days, we've been waking up and singing like Christmas songs with Alison, my wife. And, you know, spending the first hour or two of the day doing that is just like max level. It doesn't get better than that. And I want to share that gift with others. And also I want people to know that, like, they can do that too. I literally learned how to play piano over the pandemic. I'm mostly a guitarist and saxophone player and a few other instruments, but I was never great at piano. I sat down and learned how to play properly running scales, you know, like playing chords and developing technique and that sort of thing. And so now as an adult, I learned how to play piano. We're sitting around as a family, you know, singing these songs. So it's like that's not just because I'm some special musician. Like, you just got to sit down and do it, build those skills, and then you can share it with other people. So I really want to encourage other people to go after that, because that's what it used to be. Every family before recorded Music would have, like, a mandolin in the house or piano or a banjo, and they would be their own entertainment. That is such a gift for individuals and families that I think most people are missing out on. You know, I live in a musical family, and so we do still jam out and do that, and it's just the best. So I want everyone to be able to get there and have that sort of party. We all can.

We are in this world now where we're exposed to people that are defined by what they do. And so we think, oh, if I'm going to go down that path, I have to be what they are, and I can't be who I am because I don't know who I am within that craft. Right. And so it stops us from even trying because we're comparing ourselves to some thing that's not part of the journey. That's the end result. And what I hear you saying is like, no, no, this is not about, do you want to become a musician? No, we're saying music is part of our ancestral creativity, and it's a life force. Food is a life force. These two things have been around before us and for us before us, and they are for us. Oh, I've never said that before, but you know what I mean. So it's like, this is what I hear you saying, is that the audience should leave with from this episode, is that creativity is not something that you have to be good at. It's something that is an ancestral tool for you to get closer to who you are naturally.

That's exactly right. I couldn't put it any better than that.

I think I said this last time you and I talk. Every time I talk with you, I just like, oh, yeah, it just gets better and better every time we interact. It just deepens, and it's so lovely. And as I started this out, I'm just so honored that you took the time I've interviewed. You're now the third or fourth of what I would say are the OGs of this space. And I bring this up around them, and I bring this up to you because I do believe you need to be honored. And I am one of those people that if I'm. If I'm in a space, particularly if I'm new to a space, I don't sidestep the people that came before me. I think it's extremely important to honor them because they paved the road, they paved the path, and they showed those of us that weren't doing it what was possible. And they introduced the thought because the reality is we don't know anything until we know we need someone modeling it. We need contrast. We need something that inspires us with that knowledge of like, oh, this is possible. And you did that. And my want is that you feel as much gifts from those around you as those that you've given out. Because you have given so many gifts. You have been on mission and really co created something very special that I think even most of us in the space don't even understand yet. Similar to music, I think it's something that continues to emanate and we might think it means one thing in one place, but then 10 years later, it means something else. I think that's true as well. I think the path you have taken that had no blueprint, that you've kind of co created a blueprint for, is going to have even more resonance and continue to reveal itself. So I just want to thank you, James.

Thank you so much. Yeah, that really means a lot to me. Warms my heart.

How can people listen to your music?

Look up Abel James. There are new platforms called Wave, Lake and Fountain that are built on podcasting technology that allow you to download the songs as opposed to Spotify and Apple, which make it part of a subscription. If you stop paying them, you lose access to all of your music. So I'm working hard and have a few shows coming up actually in the kind of like independent alternative music podcasting space, which is really exciting, but easiest place to find it is probably going to be Apple Music and Spotify. Look up Abel James, Swamp Thing, abeljames.com you can see some of my live stuff. I've got a bunch of YouTube channels as well with just hundreds of music videos. Some songs are mine, many of them are cover songs. And then I've got a substack that's got some music there and Wave, Lake and Fountain. If you look for Abel James, that's a great place to find my music. And I'm going to be releasing a new tune in just a couple of weeks if all goes according to plan.

So we just covered the music part of your creative self. So let's cover the orator, the podcast. It started out as the Fat Burning Man. Now it's the Abel James Show. How can people listen and learn more from you?

You can find the Abel James Show. Just type that in. A, B, E, L James, wherever you listen to podcasts. And once more, my favorite podcast player is Fountain. It's been so cool working in the world of podcasting because I've gotten to meet a lot of the people who have built these protocols and these platforms, and some of them are really cutting edge, trying to work on behalf of artists and creators like us. So look forward the Abel James Show. You can find that wherever you listen to podcasts, as well as on my substack, Abel James substack and abeljames.com and.

Lastly, the creative writer. Where can people find your books and your writings? Where can they learn more about those?

Yes, so I've got a few different books. First one's called the Musical. The Wild Diet is focused more on health and nutrition and has some tasty real food recipes in there as well. And then I have a book of poetry and satire called Designer Babies and I'm working on a few more book ideas as well. But you can stay up to date on the newsletter@abeljames.com or my substack newsletter as well.

Look at that. We honored these three facets of what's probably very, you know, a lot more facets of you. Because I know you're into tech, you're into all these other things too, but I think those are the three main ones, wouldn't you say?

Yes, and I really appreciate that because most people are way too confused by me operating in these different domains than so they never ask the question. You know, people love to put each other in a box. So those of us that don't fit neatly into the box, I think just need to act out as much as possible. So I appreciate you seeing that in me and I see it in you as well, James.

Thank you again, Abel. Take care. And thank you everyone for listening or watching the Everyday Ancestral. If you liked what you heard, please follow us. Share it with a friend. Stay curious. Thank you again for joining. Thank you so much for joining me on Everyday Ancestral. If you enjoyed this episode, hit subscribe so you don't miss the next one. You can find the show notes, links and resources mentioned@eatpluck.com that's e a t p l u c d k.com and hey, if you know someone who gets something out of this, share it with them too. Stay curious, live well and keep it Ancestral.