Is Plant Medicine Just Drugs in Disguise? A Grounded Conversation on Healing and Ancestral Truth | Sitaramaya Sita

Welcome back to Everyday Ancestral, the podcast where we bring ancient wisdom for a modern world without the fluff. I'm your host, James Barry. You may have heard me talk about in previous episodes my experience with plant medicine. Extremely profound, life-changing experiences. Ones that helped to make my relationships with my wife, with my kids better. And I'm so grateful for those. But since then, I've been really wanting to sit down and just kind of dig a little deeper into what plant medicine is. To maybe support you all in better understanding it and maybe even finding curiosity to explore it yourself, should you feel called. That's why I'm so excited. Our next guest is a deeply rooted guide in the world of integrative ancestral healing. Sita Ramaya. Sita is a trauma-informed spiritual practitioner weaving together decades of work in somatic healing, plant medicine, and ancestral wisdom. And, you know, honestly, some of this work is probably the most ancestral medicinal work you can find. It's rooted in nature. So please enjoy my next guest, Sita Ramaya. Sita, and let us know what you think. Sita, it has been a long time since we've seen each other. I, I want to say almost like 12 years. I did ceremony with you when my daughter was just born. She's now 13.

What's even more amazing is that I think we first met 10 years before that. Very interesting, long time spans.

Talk about kind of the law of attraction, because when I, when we first met, the catalyst for our conversation was that I had read that book that you probably know, but I'm skipping on the full name, but it has to do with the serpent and the DNA.

Exactly. By Jeremy Narby. I'm skipping on the name too, but it was like the first book out there that really talked about his experience in the jungle with the Ashaninka.

Yeah. And that was my first exposure to plant medicine. What was interesting is, so there was 2, a male and a female, and that experience was profound. I was not able to do the 2 days. I was only able to do one, but absolutely profound. Then I haven't touched this stuff. I haven't done any other ceremony since. And recently got in with a functional doctor here who's been really doing deep dives into plant medicine and for the last few years. And he has brought me into some of his ceremonies and have had newer profound experiences. That's why I reached out to you, because I was like, I really want to better understand. This is such an ancestral practice. It's such ancestral medicine. And I would love to hear from your perspective. As someone who's been working with it for so many years, how long have you been working with it?

'98.

That's almost 30 years. I mean, you're, that's incredible. Let's start with the history of plant medicine. Can you share a bit about how it's shown up historically and just in general how it used to be used?

I am not an authority. Let me just say this. I only know what I know, and there are so many multiple lineages. plant medicine practices that, let's just say for the purposes of this conversation, that span the Amazon in South America. And so many different tribes and within those tribes, families and practices. What I think everybody can agree on is that ayahuasca, the vine, the ayahuasca vine, the Banisteriopsis caapi, has been used even before the chacruna, the Psychotria, came online. And they were put together. And the use that I am familiar with and the stories and the transmissions that I've received are based on my frame of reference having studied with the Shipibo people, which are an indigenous group of the Peruvian Amazon. So I just want to clarify that, you know, it's not the Iwanawa, the Huni Kuin in Brazil. And what I find fascinating is that all of these different groups are using, working with, communing with, in dialogue with, learning from ayahuasca, whether they call it yagé or any other name. So that to me speaks to the sentience or the presence of ayahuasca in a specific bioregion on the planet. What I know is that in many of the Shipibo lineages, while people in the communities drank ayahuasca, the primary purpose was for the onaya, which is like you would think of as a shaman, but the shaman is a bit of a colonialist imposition of naming. The Onaya, who is like the doctor, the curandero, the steward of the medicine and the realms of the medicine. So to drink the medicine, the uni, the ayahuasca, to have the vision to be able to help the patient to see, to be able to see what has to happen here and to be able to work with the various energies, spiritual, That manifests as an illness or an imbalance. And the starting point always is in the non-physical, in the unseen to the eye in the day-to-day, let's say, waking light. And then there is a prescription, if you will, for a bath or a vapor or a dieta or a lifestyle change, we would say now, for that person to feel better in whatever way that they are needing to feel better.

And that transmission comes from the plant?

Well, it's a combination of the practitioner. I'm gonna use the word practitioner because it's just less specific, but applies to people who practice with this plant medicine. In this specific lineage, in my knowledge base. So the practitioner drinks the medicine. However, what comes through in terms of the capacity is not just based on, you know, drinking the medicine in that moment, but the years of study and learning and working with a multitude of other plants that when we diet them, we receive the medicine of those plants, which then come through in the capacity.

Mm-hmm.

To host that energy during the experience, if that makes sense. The Onaya drinks the medicine, looks, and it's in real time having the visionary experience, but also the helpers of all of the plants and access points that are in their, let's say, medicine chest.

Mm-hmm.

Based on their experience with them.

From your kind of knowledge and deep dive into ayahuasca, would you say that it's probably one of the oldest forms of kind of healthcare or medicine?

You know, we'd have to define old. And because in this sense we're talking about the Amazon, there's like very few archaeological remnants or records And the Shipibo-Konibo language and the Panoan languages across the Amazon basin were not written languages. These were oral histories. So the archaeological record, if we're looking for verification, is not there. However, if we talk to the elders and the teachers, it's always been part, for example, of the Shipibo culture. Like, ayahuasca isn't separate from the culture, it's infused. And in fact, it is said and has been said that if you want to learn about ayahuasca, the Shipibo are the ones to go to. Like, they are like the, the masters of this in that region. You know, it's really sexy to say, oh, it's one of the oldest medicines ever. And maybe that's true and maybe it isn't. And certainly there are various other archaeological records having to do with other plant medicine practices in other places in the world, across the Himalayan regions and Persia and Greece and so forth, that have better archaeological records because, you know, they were writing and there were buildings that were preserved. So I don't know. I suspect, and based on my sense, It is, but ayahuasca isn't a standalone. Ayahuasca is really profound, but we can't separate ayahuasca from all of the other master plants because ayahuasca provides access to the other plants that, you know, are a part of this rich pharmacopoeia of the Amazon. And so these other plants are teachers, the plant teachers, the master plants. That, you know, get very refined in their service to us humans who go astray.

What's your definition of plant medicine?

My definition of plant medicine is medicine from plants that provide healing and remedy. So it's not limited to fungi that have healing properties, you know, which are not, they're not plants anyway. You know, these plants that are behind me, you know, are they plant medicine? Well, in a way, like, I don't know, it's medicine because they're providing oxygen for the air that I breathe, which I wouldn't be able to live without. So I have an expansive view of what plant medicine is. I was at the Dubai Yeah. Airport a couple of years ago, and they have these atriums with like all these amazing plants inside. And I, and I sat and I'm like, wow, you know, like this feels really good. You know, I'm in this long transit across the world and I felt like this healing and this calm, you know, just from the richness of this incredible atrium of plants in the middle of an airport. So that's plant medicine. In the common parlance of social media and all of this, I think plant medicine is being used to refer to entheogens, like things that are a way to know ourselves or that are expansive or transformative or that alter consciousness. And my definition is not limited to that. And primarily because I have had communications and experiences with plants that people would not call entheogenic, and they don't have the requisite alkaloids. However, when we come together with the plants and we do our work of being open to this non-linguistic interspecies communication, There's so much medicine that is beyond just this gross effect of drinking ayahuasca or ingesting psilocybin or huachuma.

5-MeO.

Yeah. Yeah. And, and the 5-MeO, like even that, right? Like, you know, referring to a synthetic compound. But I feel like everything, if it's a product of our intelligence, it's not, not natural. But we would not necessarily classify that as a plant medicine. Things like MDMA or 5-MeO or ketamine, it doesn't diminish their potential for healing given that, you know, they are taken or administered in right relationship and right circumstances in a safe setting, but they would not necessarily be plant medicines.

But yet I think a lot of people are clumping it all together, at least to your point, how they talk about it on social media. And it makes me wonder, because I had experienced in college a couple of mind-altering things like acid and psilocybin, but that experience was very different than what I experienced with ayahuasca. And it was also very different from what I've experienced recently with this functional doctor. And it's, and it makes me wonder. Is it just the vehicle, meaning what you're taking, or is it more so the environment you're taking under? Is there a ritual to it? Are there people guiding you? Is there intention, or, or do you think it's just a mixture of the two?

Well, I think it's all of that. It's like saying, you know, as far as plant medicine, that Jack and Jill are the same person. Ayahuasca is ayahuasca, and ayahuasca presents itself in many different ways. You know, there's the Yahé tradition out of Colombia, and then there, you know, are traditions in various tribal settings, and then there are emergent traditions where people are working with it in, let's say, more contemporary ways that are less traditional. I think That our emotional set point or physical set point or psychological set point or spiritual set point, the setting in which the experience happens, and the amount we take are all components. There is an aspect to ceremonial work and ritual work that is a container set in a specific way specifically for healing. That Plays into it too.

What got you on this path? Because I know it was reading that book that introduced me to it, but what brought you down this path?

So I had a yoga teacher in early to mid-'90s, and I was sober from drugs and alcohol for 11 years, and they mentioned ayahuasca to me. And I was shocked. I'm like, oh, that's just an excuse to use drugs. And then when I contemplated and I observed the yoga teacher's way of being in the world and what they did for their students and working in hospice and working with AIDS patients and this amazing work, I'm like, I don't know, but they don't seem like they're using drugs. Like, The way that I did anyway. I sat with it for about a year and then I said, I actually am interested in this. And then it was another year before an opportunity presented itself. And I was on a yoga retreat on Maui and there was an opportunity. It wasn't connected with the retreat, but one thing led to another and I had my first experience and I really believe. That in that moment, I even knew it in that moment. There was like my life before ayahuasca and then my life after. It was—

I've heard that. I've heard that from many people.

It, it really was. And I felt very strongly called and very strongly drawn. And then 2 years later, I traveled to the Brazilian Amazon, which started my journey. And I had read The Cosmic Serpent, but it was there. a year after that, that I met Jeremy Narvey and we became friends. And then he was actually the conduit for my journeying then into Peru, into some of the far reaches of the jungle, first staying with the Asháninka shaman that was part of the group in that book, The Cosmic Serpent. And so that was a couple of years before I then Met and started studying and learning from the Shipibo.

It's fascinating because more and more you're hearing about ayahuasca being a resource for addiction. And yet it's interesting because I think what you're speaking to is that I had been an addict, I was sober, and I was afraid to do something that was kind of like perceived as maybe being mind-altering or drug-like. So it's almost like we, we build these labels and then there's lots of, while they're keeping us sort of safe, there's also a lot of fear around them, right? Was it just sitting with it that kind of made you feel safe to delve into it? Or in general, when you're working with people that are dealing with addiction to, let's just say alcohol or these modern addictions, what are you finding is helping people to take the leap and to see this is not the same as the thing that they feel like they're addicted to?

Well, I'll speak for myself to answer the first part of your question. The whole evolution, you know, I felt like in a way we would say, like, as a, you know, in Buddhism, like it was my, you know, karma to meet this person and for these, you know, auspicious circumstances to present themselves. Because during that year, what I realized was the question was not, oh, that's just an excuse to use drugs. Would it be an excuse to use drugs for me? Because there was no like internet and Google or any of these things. Even when I went to the Amazon, like there was no Google, there was no anything. And it was just, okay, here I go. So in answering that question, in the beginning it was like, No, because I don't want to use. I don't want to drink. But I do want to improve the quality of my life. And I do know that while I might be sober, there are things that have not yet healed. And there are things that I have not yet released. And I knew that. And yoga was certainly helping. And some of my other spiritual practices were helping. And I felt more and more called and drawn. I'm like, wow, okay. I let them know. And then it was a year. Like, so it also helped me to cultivate patience and not perseverate on the thing. Like, okay, now this thing's gonna fix me. Like, I'm available if and when. It was the beginning of a long journey of a practice of cultivating patience, which was not in my wheelhouse prior to that. And then now I think that we're so blessed because there's so many communities of psychedelics in recovery, and there are meetings where people who are either exploring entheogenic substances or taking them, but they're also in recovery and are breaking free from more regimented or restricted 12-step programs that say, oh, you know, anything that's mind-altering is not being sober. And then there are pharmaceuticals that are okay, but entheogens aren't. And so I think that when somebody feels called or drawn or hears about it, at that point, I hope for them that they find their way to somebody who is going to Talk to them and thoroughly do an intake or an assessment to make sure, because I have found that there are people who open the door to psychedelics and then they're consistently chasing like the big event, the high dose, and doing 20 grams of mushrooms. And not a problem, but you know what it can do? It can also feed patterns where people who are addicted to the cortisol or the adrenaline and also perhaps a little less self-aware of their own desire to have a certain status or achieving. So there's not a one-size-fits-all. And while I believe psychedelics, which promote neuroplasticity, and specifically ayahuasca does a really good job at that, helps to get us out of the default mode network and gets all the regions of our brain working at the same time, much like meditation can, that it's not for everybody. It's not the answer for everybody. And many people, let's just say, who have been addicted or alcoholic may have physical considerations on board as a result of the abuse of their body. So as I said, my hope is that they find their way to somebody, if they're drawn, who can guide them in a way that is helpful and reasonable and, you know, can assist them in providing information so that they can make an informed choice about whether or not to proceed with consciousness-altering experiences.

Yeah, I think that's well said that there's still, despite the popularity and the trendiness of some of these things right now, that there's still no magic bullet or magic pill that's going to work for everyone, everybody. It is fascinating though, because when I had my experience with you, that was the first time I really got it. I was like, oh, this is plant medicine. Like, this is medicine. And it was so clearly not a drug, at least the way that I had grown up, you know, understanding what drugs were. Keep in mind that, you know, we, we grew up with, we're of the age where, you know, Nancy Reagan was, you know, saying, just say no, you know? So drugs were very like, the idea of what a drug is and what it's labeled as It kind of permeated our childhood, you know, of anyone that's a certain age. I went in kind of thinking, well, okay, you can call it vegan or plant-based. It's still, you're not eating animal. You know what I mean? Like, I kind of went in going, sure, it's plant medicine. Yeah, just like, you know, but when I experienced it, I was like, oh no, no, no, this is medicine. It was such a distinct difference. And so I would love to kind of help people understand what is ayahuasca? Because you're talking about, let's go back to that idea that there's these other plants that you mix with it when you're creating ceremony? Can you kind of explore what embodies it?

Yeah. So we don't mix other plants with ayahuasca. What happens is we diet with other plants outside the ceremonial space for extended periods of time, a month, 3 months, 6 months, a year, to come to understand the medicine of those plants. And when we do, we receive the songs and The connection. Then in ceremony, the practitioner opens themselves to receive whatever needs to come through to assist them to be of service. So if they have dieted chuchuasi or ohe or some of these other plants, those plants might come through.

Mm-hmm.

While the practitioner is in the experience of ayahuasca to be of service. Because let's just say that person is healing from drug addiction or alcoholism, and ohe is like this really powerful, deep cleanser of any residual, any remnants of alcoholism, whether it's physically, spiritually, emotionally, energetically, or drugs and parasitic energies and parasites. So that comes through in the realm of the medicine. Ayahuasca is just 2 plants, the ayahuasca vine and chacruna. Now, in some regions where chacruna is not native, it would be chalipanga, which is a different admixture plant. But those 2 plants together are ayahuasca. And it's really fascinating because ayahuasca contains harmine, harmaline, and tetrahydroharmine, which are beta-carboline alkaloids that act as a temporary and reversible inhibitor of monoamine oxidase A activity and is a natural antidepressant. And pharmacologically, oxidase inhibitors were the first pharmaceutical antidepressant.

Yes.

But if we were to Prepare a tea with chacruna, with the Psychotria viridis, and drink it, and it's rich with the alkaloid of N,N-dimethyltryptamine or DMT. The person would not feel an effect because our bodies are so brilliant. The oxidase activity would neutralize it or metabolize it, saying, "Whoa, wait! This is foreign." But because that activity is temporarily suspended, the DMT crosses the blood-brain barrier and produces what in allopathic medicine is referred to as a psychotropic or a psychoactive effect. And in the shamanic spiritual practices, it's much more than that because now we're open to the teaching of this plant. And it's like the pump is primed to help us expand and have potentially a visionary experience, which may include visuals, or it may be an experience like you had, James, of I just knew. If that's an insight, then that's a vision. And because there are a lot of physiological, pharmacological things going on, which intuitively Indigenous people without that language knew. They just knew. It's nice that we have science and we have assessments. And starting in the late '80s, these studies started happening. So it's great to know that. But there's something that can't be qualified or quantified through science, which is, how is it that, for example, myself growing up on the streets of Philadelphia, You know, in the inner city, like, makes her way to the jungle. Like, how does that happen? So there's something that is, you know, ancestral in that, you know, it could be through many lifetimes or, you know, many manifestations of this interdependent nature of our existence. And then there is our capacity to surrender to having an interspecies communication, if you will. Like receiving messages or maybe even expanding enough to have an experience of recognizing the plants as having sentience and being helpers and being teachers and being healers themselves and wanting to help us. We need a lot of help. Human beings need a lot of help. And so it's really quite Profound. I think I may have gotten off track to your question. So remind me if I, if I did.

Let me first walk through and you can, of course, support it. But from my understanding and from what I've experienced is typically you're told to fast from animal-based products prior to ceremony, to not eat too much, to keep it pretty light. Then The ceremony that I did with you, it was in the evening, and then we sat. I don't even remember how many people, but it's not a huge group. It's intimate. And then a lot of people purge, not everyone, but a lot of people then purge. And I'm curious to hear your thoughts on what that purging represents. But then also, you then do this ceremony and it's however long, but then afterwards, you're still kind of told to—

Purge.

You know, not immediately go into eating too much food. And I think we had oatmeal, for example, we kept it very light and we did it so long ago. This was an issue, but I know nowadays it's also like you're warned to kind of like not get too heavy into electronics, kind of give some space between what you experience in modern life.

So the dieta in preparation for drinking ayahuasca in the lineage in which I've learned is no salt, sugar, spices, dairy, oil, caffeine, red meat, pork, recreational substances, marijuana, alcohol, pornography, sex, and masturbation. So it's not complete abstinence from animal products. You know, you could conceivably eat chicken or you could eat a light white fish, which unfortunately is not really available in North America that hasn't been farmed. But like, just as a counter to this, deep in the jungle over the course of, you know, retreat, it might be like plantains and boquichito, which is like this little tiny fish with a million bones. And in order to eat it, it's very meditative.

So— It forces you to go slow and be mindful.

Yes, exactly. There is another component to the diet because there are other plants that are incredible plant medicines, but they're not a fit with ayahuasca. It's not like a hard and fast thing that interfere not just physiologically, but potentially physiologically, but energetically. And they're just not a good fit. It's like if you were to put on an outfit and you're like, wow, that just doesn't go. So the idea is that we're preparing, from my perspective, the dieta is not an add-on, like, oh, I have to do this because I'm going to go drink ayahuasca. The dieta is an opportunity to connect with my intentions. So like, why am I going to this ceremony? Oh, because I want to work some more on my patience. I want to cultivate patience, or I'm going to release my attachments. So Maybe I otherwise drink coffee and then I'm like, oh, I'm gonna have Alvin. I'm not having coffee. I'm not having coffee because I wanna cultivate patience.

It forces you to face whatever it is you're trying to work through.

I mean, it doesn't force you, 'cause some people could just like white-knuckle it and not have coffee and not have sugar and not have the things. But as an offering, as a spiritual practice, oh, I'm not, I'm abstaining from this because I am committed To this practice of releasing my attachments, of cultivating patience, of, you know, letting go of jealousy or letting go of, you know, the things that keep me from really being of, you know, highest service to myself and others. The dieta is a time of contemplation. And certainly if there are things that interfere with that, like electronics and Too much engagement with the world, then it's a nice time to just like, let me hang back. The other thing is afterwards, after drinking ayahuasca, it's really nice not to dive too quickly back into our normal eating habits because the heaviness can like cut the experience. And we might really like have this like ongoing profound experience for a few days or longer afterwards. And Most people will notice the minute they start eating the spice or they stop and have the hamburger that it can create a heaviness and then it brings us down, which we have to come back down, right? We're living in the world. We want our feet on the ground. That to create a container for everything that potentially could emerge that's positive, to have a container and a space in which to emerge. Because not everything happens in the ceremony. Not everything happens the morning after that. Like, wow, we start to contemplate, huh? Now I remember that. What, what is the message there for me? What is the insight? Let me contemplate on that. But the minute we're back to doing all the things, we're very forgetful.

And why do you think the plant induces the purging? Because I, I know it's not for everyone, but it definitely happens more often than not.

So the purgative effect is primarily due to the vine, which is, is a really powerful antioxidant. It can have up to hundreds or even 1,000 times the antioxidants as say green tea. And it is a really powerful detoxifier. So that detoxification of the vine, and even when people purge physiologically, whether it's through vomiting or through profuse bowel movements or shaking or sweating. Many people experience the purge as a release of that which no longer serves them or habituated thought patterns or ways of viewing themselves or their relationships or their biographical information. So many people, you know, who purge, they feel really great afterwards. It's Like, wow, you know, like that really needed to come out. And this idea of cleaning and clearing is really big in the Shipibo lineage. And in fact, in the íkaros and in the songs, you know, there's so many variations on cleaning, cleaning, cleaning, cleaning, washing, cleaning, washing, cleaning in the songs because so many of us have so many things that we're carrying and things that we don't realize are Obscuring our true nature, which is like the light, the light that's in us, it gets covered over. And so, you know, we want to clean that. And we also want to clean our organs and our blood and our nervous system and our bones and all these things too.

So this is what I've been thinking a lot about lately. And I feel like we've been talking about that book, The Cosmic Serpent. That, that book really highlighted, because if I remember correctly, he was going to the rainforest to do one thing, but then through his conversations with the shamans and the different tribes, they had an understanding of medicine and science, of DNA. They had all this understanding. They just had different names for it, but they had a deeper understanding of these concepts than even non-tribal people did. But their explanation for it was the plants told us. It's in the plants.

Yes.

That has really kind of like made me wonder in my exploration of ancestral living and how we merge it, you know, how do we get back in touch with all this innate knowledge we do have? Is if the plants have all that knowledge, don't we as well? Isn't it all stored in ourselves? Isn't it part of when we breathe the air? Isn't it part of the kind of ancestral knowledge that continues to get passed down cellularly, biologically? The plant has that knowledge, then so do we technically. In your experience, is that true? And then how do we get closer to our own innate knowledge of, for example, what we need to eat, how we need to be, how do we need to coexist in this life so that we're not just full of anxieties and like depression and all these things that are really overtaking our lives these days?

Well, first up, you know, just to clarify, in The Cosmic Serpent, Jeremy was with the Ashaninka, like not different tribal people, but with the Ashaninka specifically. And I say that because I don't want to, us, you know, as folks from the global north, just clump all indigenous people Together, because even within, you know, an Asheninka community, there are individual people there, like having individual experiences and their own individual and collective heritage. And I believe that, yes, if the plants have this knowledge that has been passed on from what we know on this planet in this iteration, from like that first single-cell organism, Till now. The same is true for us. I agree that if we are able to get out of the thinking mind and we're able to get out of this linear-based approach to our incarnation in a body, then that's a first step. It could be something as simple as you look at something or you smell something and you're like, ooh, you know, it's a no. How do you know it's a no? There's something in you telling you that it's a no. So there are various practices. And I work with people individually and in groups in many different ways, helping us to learn the language of our body, which is the carrier of our consciousness and therefore the carrier of the wisdom of Everything that we have been and our ancestors have been and are to be, there are things that we're already doing that we don't realize. You know, like, I had a gut feeling about it. Like, there's real wisdom in that. Or I just, you know, it was just a no. And then we find ourselves going back. So I think that it's important to be reminded. That the foundational tools are already on board, but we forget it, or we recognize it and we do it anyway because our mind comes in and says, "No, you should because then you're going to look weird if you don't," and blah blah blah blah blah. Quieting the mind, being open and willing to do something that's out of the ordinary for ourselves is the first step. My hope is that we can inspire people to do something out of the ordinary for themselves, whatever it might be, to be able to reconnect with who they truly are and tap into this lineage of their own ancestral knowledge and of our collective ancestral knowledge. And also to not feel separated, because when we're separated from the trees and the plants and the soil and the sun and the stars and the wind and the rain, then, you know, when we perceive ourselves as separated, we are not. But then we have this perception, then we're trying to live in isolation when we are designed to live and we are living interdependently. But then we stop paying attention to this interdependence and we think, I'm a solo warrior trying to get through my life. You know, from my view, one of the reasons why we're here and are incarnated is to recognize that we're not separate.

Do you think ayahuasca is a tool towards supporting that? Because that, that's been my experience as of late is really seeing how connected we are through my experiences.

I do. And I do because historically, traditionally in And the people who are companions to stewards of work with ayahuasca, it's done in community. It is not done in isolation. I mean, granted, if you're in a study or you're in a dieta or in the jungle for an extended period of time, maybe you drink on your own as part of the learning process, but it is a communal event. And I think there's a reason for that because The idea is like we can't be healed unless we start with ourselves, but that is the pathway for our collective healing and our collective emergence and awareness of our interdependence. And, you know, in this, you know, common era, you know, in the last couple hundred years, we've just become more and more isolated. And we co-created that too. We're in a time of isolation, and we don't know how long that's going to last. But like any other epoch or era, there are those who say, wait a minute, like, this might be what's going on for the majority, but I'm aware. I'm aware. And once we're aware, we can do what we can do, and then we can hold an intention to help others, to not force anybody to do anything. But it shows up, I believe, like, how do I speak with my neighbor? How do I interact with someone who's providing me a service? How do I interact with my client or my customer? How do I show up with my coworkers? How am I in my family with my children and with my parents and with my extended relatives? Like, that's where it happens. And how— I do my best to live in a way that recognizes the interdependence of the natural world and the waterways and the mountains and the plants, all of the plants, not just the ayahuasca plants, but all of them and the birds and the fishes and the animals and the insects and all of the elements of this Gaian ecosphere that we're living on right now.

It's fascinating to me In terms of that connecting point, one of the things that I believe is a sign of like the interconnectedness of ayahuasca and the experience that people have with ayahuasca is something that I experienced through the ceremony I did with you, which is I saw these very specific kind of matrixy, very clear images. That were geometric. And then after the experience, I'm walking through the building that we were near, and I see all these pictures on the wall that I did not see before I went in. And I was like, wait a second, I saw that.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So these lines and shapes and configurations are called kunna. And so they're the visual representations of energy and of history and of stories. It is a way of communicating non-linguistically when we look at the artistic representations of the visionary experience. And one of the articles I wrote touches on this. You can look me up and find it, but it's really a fascinating phenomenon. They can't put words to their experience, but then they look at it and they're like, wait, that was it. That was it. So to me, that's evidence of this unique cosmology of ayahuasca. Because now it's like, wait a minute, we have a shared vision. What is that? And that is a testament to our interconnectedness and our interconnectedness beyond what we can see, but our interconnectedness in the unseen.

Yeah, I have to imagine that's true. I wonder how you'll, you'll answer this. I've had a multitude of experiences where when I'm doing them, and this even happened when, when I did ceremony with you, is something is talking to me and it's not me, but it's through me. And more recently, it feels like source.

Yeah.

If I were coming to you and we were having a one-on-one conversation and I was sharing, hey, this is what I'm experiencing. How would you, how would you interpret that connection? Or is it more just, well, however I see it is what it is?

Well, however you see it is what it is, but however you see it is what has meaning for you. And we are nothing but source. And in the Buddhist tradition, we would say Rigpa, the original nature that is unconditioned. It's kind of like a pointer or a guide, like leading us to what might allow us to recognize the truth of who we really are and what we really are. For now, what I'll say is whatever way that voice or that information has meaning to you, Is what's most important. Also, to the extent that you feel like you are tapping into information that is going to improve the quality of your life and the lives of others, like that's the barometer. Not like voice that says sell everything and go, you know, build a tower someplace to not get ahead of ourselves and. You know, and to still maintain discernment because, you know, it can be very enchanting. We see all of these things and then we think ayahuasca told me XYZ. So to also make sure to check in with whatever the voice is or whatever, you know, we perceive it is telling us and verify it, do an investigation rather than just take things at face value because it feels you know, magical and mystical. Investigate. This is what the Buddha said. Don't believe me. Do your own investigation. So.

I like that. I like that. As we come to an end, you mentioned that you see your life as before ayahuasca and after. So in the last, you know, 20-odd years since you've been doing this, and technically even in the last 12 or so years that I've seen you, how have you changed? And even more recently, like, through your work with it, how is it developing? Do you just keep going deeper? Do the layers just keep getting revealed? Or where does the journey that you've been on, where has it taken you?

I think it has taken me closer to the awareness of How little I know, number one. From a day-to-day, in the last three years, I believe that it played a big role in coming to another medicine practice, which is that of the Medicine Buddha and Soarikta in traditional Tibetan medicine, which I've been studying in the Vajrayana Tibetan Buddhist practices in the Yutak Nintig, which is. Amazing to me because here's this other traditional medicine practice from the Himalayas on the other side of the world, and it just keeps unfolding and keeps inspiring me. I would say for me that I can't say, you'd have to ask the people that know me, but I feel better and I feel like I'm a better person and I am more committed to my own self-care. And as a result of that, being able to be of service to others. The mask drops down on the plane and they say, oh, put your mask on first before helping anyone else. So I feel like maybe the first 12 years were putting my mask on, and then, you know, the next we're like, oh, okay, I think I have enough oxygen to help that person for 2 minutes. And so I think it's Leading me to continue to expand and not get boxed in because it's easy to get boxed into like, this is the only way. And so I am so grateful to the plants and to the medicine for helping me so much to open my mind and open my heart and heal my body and help to amplify my innate intelligence and connection to myself. And to teachers. And the journey continues. Like there's not an endpoint.

Yeah.

Just like this continuing evolution. And if I am paying attention and I'm diligent and I put forth good effort and I'm disciplined, not in the like regimented kind of way, but like I, in a way that I wanna be, and I maintain good practices, then the benefits are beyond anything I could say with this voice in this time. Like, it's not something that really is easily translatable into language. I guess I could say there were hints of it, but the preciousness of this human life and this experience is astounding. It's so profound. I feel like, forget the external circumstances of where I live or what I do and all of those things, I guess I could just say I feel better and I feel like I'm doing a better job at being human.

Wow. That's lovely. I want to thank you for talking about this. You know, I think we're finally at a place where we can actually more openly talk about this as, as not just lumped in as a drug or anything similar to what people in the '80s, you know, growing up in the '80s were programmed around. But that this is a modality, and when you're called to it, it's a potential place of awakening and healing in a different way than we typically experience with modern-day tools.

Yeah. And side note, I grew up in the '70s. I'm a little bit older than you might imagine. And I grew up when we could still walk around, you know, smoking joints in the park. And then came the war on drugs, and this is your Brain on drugs with the egg in the frying pan and all of that. But I would say there still is good reason to be discreet, and some things that even I might not be ready or able to hear in a way that is, say, respectful or Honoring of the information or the practice. You use this word mainstream. I mentioned earlier, like, not everything is for everybody. And I do think that there is a good reason to be well prepared for whatever it is that we're receiving and not to dilute it, not to commodify things. At the same time, the information and the teachings that we receive should be shared, whether people drink ayahuasca or not. And how that's shared is maybe not necessarily even saying, ayahuasca taught me this, or the plants told me this, but as I said, in how we show up, that's way more important than promoting the plants, let's say, because I think they know what they're doing. They're doing a good job. promoting themselves and, and showing us.

Yeah, it's an interesting thought, like almost in a sense, like, do your work, show up in your best self, do the best you can.

Yeah. Yeah.

But that the experience or the, the ayahuasca plant or whatever it is, that it's not necessarily about that. It's about who we are either from the experience or just in the world with it. in conjunction with it. Like, I love how you started this, which is, well, the plants behind me, how do I interact with those? Those are medicine too. And I think really what we're talking about is that this is maybe a possibility for certain people, but it's more important about what kind of mindfulness do we have in our day-to-day?

Yeah.

With everything.

Yeah. How are we living our life? That's it. Are we kind? To ourselves and to others.

Thank you so much for taking the time to have this discussion. I really, I value your knowledge and your experience on this, and you really are a linchpin for me, kind of being aware that you're there should I ever need you. And so I just really appreciate you.

Well, thank you for saying that. And I appreciate you doing this podcast and, you know, broadcasting to those who are ready and able to hear. What is important to you in your quest to connect with and rekindle this ancestral wisdom that you astutely mentioned is available for all of us.

And now if people want to find you just to learn more about your writings, about your experiences, how can they do that?

Sitaramaya, S-I-T-A-R-A-M-A-Y-A. And the website is like literally ready to be launched after all these years. I'm like finally getting with the, the modern era. And then there's a way to contact me on, on the website, but I think it's gonna go live like in a few days. I have an old website that's up. It's just like a, a landing page. And, you know, while we've been talking about ayahuasca, there's so many things that I do in terms of, you know, like I'm an SE practitioner, Experiencing, and so a Rigpa counselor, and a Neijang yoga teacher, and like all these things, and dietas, and pusingueras. And the thing is, just like when you looked at that painting, like, ah, like there was something for you. So all the things I just mentioned, maybe you go to the website and there's just one thing that speaks to you. So I hope to be able to provide things for people to contemplate and to think about and to read. You can also just Google Sita Ramaya Sita, and writing and articles and different things come up on the internet as a result of a search like that.

Well, thank you, and excited for what's coming for you in terms of this new work that you're doing, and look forward to reading more.

Okay, thank you so much, James.

Thank you, and thank you all for watching or listening. It's such a joy to have these conversations with people like Sita. And to know that maybe it's going to affect one or many of you, and maybe it's— this is the time you needed to hear it, because the goal is to support your health and to help bring these beautiful, important ancestral practices into our modern life. So thank you again, and stay curious. Thank you so much for joining me on Everyday Ancestral. If If you enjoyed this episode, hit subscribe so you don't miss the next one. You can find the show notes, links, and resources mentioned at eatpluck.com. That's eatpluck.com. And hey, if you know someone who'd get something out of this, share it with them too. Stay curious, live well, and keep it ancestral.