The Art of the Long Game: How Martin Jacobson Uses Pressure, Presence, and Pattern to Win at Life

Welcome back to Everyday Ancestral. I'm your host, James Barry. My next guest is a former chef turned professional poker player, and he won the 2014 World Championship. How incredible is that? We delve into the championship, the traits that poker playing embodies that actually tap into our ancestral characteristics, the things that help keep us alive ancestrally, they show up in poker players. So stay tuned. This is a fascinating episode. With Martin Jacobson. Martin, thank you so much for joining. You know, you and I met a while ago and I instantly liked you, instantly connected with you, but selfishly, I'm just excited to get to talk to you for an hour.

Thanks, James. It's great to reconnect and it's a pleasure to be on the show.

What a lot of people don't know about you is that you are a former chef. So how does a former chef turn professional poker player? Walk us through that journey.

Well, it was kind of like the right place at the right time, I suppose. And things just like sort of happened that way. I was actually in between 2 jobs, so I got a job offer to move to Barcelona and work at a Michelin-star restaurant down there. And this was, you know, very early in my chef career and I'd quite high ambitions, so it didn't take long to accept that offer. But then I quit my job in Stockholm at the time, and during that period, like the overlap period, my contact there went totally MIA. I just couldn't get ahold of her. I don't know if— I imagine, you know, obviously thought a lot about this, like what happened, but I would imagine that the job wasn't there and she was too embarrassed or felt too bad to spill the news, so she just chose to ghost me.

Ghosted you? What people say now, ghost. Ghosted you.

Yeah. Yeah. So it was during that period that I was already playing poker, you know, as a hobby in parallel or on my off time when I wasn't cooking. And it was during that period that I started devoting more time towards poker and it sort of became more professional about it, I suppose. But then one thing led to another and I had some very fortunate early success, and then that sort of allowed me to never look back and just completely pursue a career as a professional poker player.

Getting offered a job though, in a Michelin restaurant, I mean, that's no small beans. Like that's not everyone gets that opportunity. So when you left for Spain, did you actually land in Spain and then have no job?

No, no, I didn't go that far. Yeah. The opportunity cost for me back then was quite low. So the way I viewed it, you know, transitioning to poker now, the way I viewed it was that if poker obviously didn't work out, I could always go back to cooking. So knowing that I had, you know, I didn't drop out of college like a lot of my peers have done, putting all the eggs in one basket and just going all in, no pun intended, that on poker. I feel like I had more of a, like a safety net because I had a very clear skill and like I was fully educated at the time. I had a good network, so I knew I could always get a job in the restaurant industry if I needed to again.

What kind of chef were you? Were you savory or sweet?

Savory. So I was a junior sous chef. That was like the highest I ranked.

And did you have like a specialty that you particularly felt like you excelled at?

A specialty dish, you mean?

Well, dish, or like, oh, I loved, you know, I'm, I'm the sauce guy, or I was the griller, you know, any aspect of the kitchen that— well, you, you know, as a sous chef, you're doing more than just one thing, but was there one that you really like, oh, this is my sweet spot?

Yeah, I was usually on— God, I forgot even the term now, but you know, you have the grill, you have the pastry chef who does like The garde manger or something?

Were you doing that?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I was in charge of all the sauces and the all— I'm thinking back in Swedish now because this was at a time where I was living in Sweden.

Yeah. Where you were exclusive. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, this brings up actually a good point though, 'cause this was gonna be one of my questions is since you kind of moved away from cooking and being a chef, you really in many ways went all in with poker, right? So have you lost some of those chef skills? 'Cause it is very much one of those things like, I should preface, like, you always will know how to cook, but I mean, working in the intensity of a kitchen, you know, a restaurant kitchen, that is a skill. That is something you can lose. The speed, the kind of high intensity, you know, being calm in that high intensity environment. Those are skills you can lose if you're not in it all the time.

Yes, true. But like what I went into instead is arguably more stressful than working as a chef, even though I think working in a kitchen is one of the most stressful environments you can be in. But yeah, I, I mean, a lot of those skills and sort of work environments are very frequent in poker as well. Like, you're constantly under a lot of pressure, a lot of stress. You have to make decisions within seconds, which is very similar to working in a kitchen, you know, that where the bar is set high and, and you have a lot of expectations and everything needs to happen as quickly as possible because you're, you're working with such slim margins, you know, like You can't waste anything like time, resources, produce. Like everything has to be spent very efficiently. So I think learning that at a, at an early age has sort of helped me in poker as well. Also like staying calm under pressure in like high-pressure spots.

Yeah, it's really interesting to note, I mean, what you're saying that there, there is overlap. One of the reasons why I wanted to interview you on the podcast is because I see the, the qualities that it takes to be a professional poker player as ones that are ancestral. If you can indulge that thought, what would you say are the qualities of being a professional poker player? And you've already just touched on 'em, but maybe elaborate even more so on them.

Being able to endure and thrive in high-pressure situations, I would say, is like one of the key aspects, 'cause you need to be able to like stay cool under pressure. You can't just freak out and, 'cause then your decision-making goes out the window and you start acting from a more emotional aspect than rational. Like you always want to be rational in your decision-making. So being able to differentiate between emotions and rationality is very important, I would say. Obviously, like being patient and disciplined is very key as well.

Is there also a lot of stillness? Because I imagine when you're playing poker, at least from the little I've watched from shows and when I'm in Vegas or something like that, I noticed the professional players. It's fascinating because there's such a clear difference, right, between someone who just casually plays and someone who's professional. And what I observe is in the professional players, they're more still, their body is kind of more contained. How would you classify the difference between a casual poker player Visually and a professional player visually?

Yeah, I think the main difference is probably discipline. You know, as a professional poker player, you have to be disciplined, otherwise you're just never gonna make it. A part of being disciplined is having that stillness that you're referring to, being cool under pressure, taking one decision at a time, not looking ahead, not looking back. It's just like trying to operate from a rational standpoint rather than getting emotional over outcomes that you can't control. So that's another thing leading into that, that you have to be able to separate and be okay with making decisions with uncertain outcomes. And that's something that's extremely challenging as a human being because we are so dependent on the outcomes in our decision-making and we have so much bias towards if a decision was the right one or the wrong one, depending on the outcome. But in a lot of what poker teaches you is that you just want to focus on making good decisions. Like the outcome is sort of irrelevant. Obviously it matters and can have a huge outcome of the game or even your life, but you just sort of have to separate yourself from that.

I'm even realizing right now that I even am assuming that I know what poker is, but what is poker to you? You know, you've already embodied how you show up and you play poker, but what is the actual game? How is that different versus other card games?

To me, I guess it's like, it's competition at a very, very high level with really high stakes. You're sort of playing in an equilibrium, right? So it's like you have your strategy, I have mine. And then we clash, and then it's like whoever has the best strategy comes up on out on top. So because it's a zero-sum game, one of us is going to win and one of us is going to lose. So the bigger mistakes you make, the bigger I benefit, and vice versa. So that's why it's so important to always make sure that you have some sort of edge on your opponent, because otherwise you're playing in a losing game. So it's like when you show up to Vegas and you play blackjack. You're never gonna have an edge over the casino. So like, that's the difference. Like compare poker and blackjack, but to me they're so totally different because I would never play blackjack because I know it's a losing game. Whereas in poker, I would only play games where I think I'm a winner, you know, otherwise I'm just playing for fun and I know I'm not beating that game. But my main objective is always playing in games where I think I have an edge.

So how do you get an edge in poker? Is it like researching who you're playing against? Is it just mindset? Like what is an edge?

So it's very, you know, complex and fundamental game. So nowadays the studying to figure out how to play the game looks a lot different than what it did back when I was young. I started off reading books, reading magazines, watching poker on TV, and then sort of figuring out my own strategy from there. Maybe like reading on forums and discussing like with my early friends, you know, what different strategies and whatnot. Nowadays, the game has evolved tremendously, and you study the game using AI and something called solvers. And it's an AI that sort of places itself in equilibrium to figure out the best strategy that's impossible to exploit, meaning that neither of the 2 components can have an edge. And then you can see both outputs, so you know exactly which hands to raise, which hands to fold, How often? So poker is a lot about frequencies as well. It's not just about which hands to play, it's like how often do you play them? So it's extremely complex, but that's what makes it fun because for a human being, it's basically impossible to completely solve the game and playing a non-exploitable strategy, meaning that you play strategy where no one can have an edge.

You're making me think though that AI is kind of like poker's version of steroids for, you know, athletes or something. You know what I mean? Almost like it's changing the nature of the game.

Oh, for sure. Yeah. It's changed huge. Like it's a complete different game today than when I started playing. 'Cause back then when I started playing and we were reading, reading books as a resource to get better at the game, it was like a lot of it was just trial and error, right? It was like my strategy versus their strategy and then We'll see who come out on top, and it's like you see new different trends and stuff. Like people are doing different things and testing things out, and some are more successful than others. But the bar was so low back then that you can get away with not being very good and still make a lot of money. Whereas today, you really have to study these outputs because people are starting to play more and more like the computer. So you have to play closer to the baseline. Of what we call game theory optimal, which is the computerized strategy which decides how many hands you can play and from which positions.

This is crazy. I didn't even know this was happening, but it makes sense that people would utilize AI to do this. Are you even finding yourself pushed out of it or are you now converting, you know, and shifting your mindset to fit this new way of playing?

Yeah, you have to totally. I mean, otherwise you'll fall behind. So I've been using this. Resources for close to 10 years now, but it's constantly evolving. There's always new software coming out which you can train in different aspects of the game. Like you can drill preflop, you can drill final tables, you can drill multi-way pots. Like the game tree is so huge that it's so hard to memorize and learn everything. So the key really is to Utilize AI in a way where you, you study it, but you try to develop your own framework. So you try to see patterns. Okay. The computer likes to play this way and with these combinations. So you try to like bucket a lot of hand classes rather than looking at, okay, how do I play this specific spot? I totally agree that it's kind of like poker, poker's form of steroids. And it's actually sadly being used like that because there's a lot of cheating going on nowadays online. So a lot of the poker sites are constantly advancing their counter software to detect cheating when it's going on, and people are utilizing these software softwares in real time, which is obviously illegal.

I recently was talking to this older gentleman who is a jiu-jitsu master, really, like he's very experienced, been doing it for a long time. We got in a conversation about it and he said, You know, I'm not bigger and stronger than a lot of the other guys doing jiu-jitsu in this room. He said, but what I do is I understand the strategy and the techniques, and so I just wait until they make a mistake and then I got them. But I'm not stronger than— so I'm not gonna muscle past this, but I can just wait for the mistake. So in a sense, is that because if everyone's using this technique of AI and they're really trying to think like a computer, So are you basically, when you're playing them, are you just waiting for their humanness to make the mistake?

Yeah, sort of. There's a little bit of similarities there, I would say, especially at the higher stakes where the fields are much smaller and the fields are also more polarized, meaning that there's the very, very elite players that are very well studied and will play very close to optimal. And then you have the wealthy businessmen recreational pool of players that are playing very far from optimal and have a lot of flaws. So you can sort of say that in a sense, the professionals there, they're not looking to battle versus each other. I mean, of course they will, but they realize that that's not where they're making their money. They're making their money of waiting in these games for the amateurs to make a mistake, and then they can profit from that.

So interesting. So let's go back to 2014. You know, you're in the World Series of Poker, their main event, and you win. This is huge, right? I mean, this is beyond probably what you, you had ever experienced in your life. I mean, that, first of all, didn't you win something like $10 million? Is that, isn't that more money than you had ever seen in your life at the time?

Yeah, definitely.

Take us back to that. Like, what was that like? First of all, I'm, I'm imagining like in that last game, and so you're almost like, you can almost see and feel the $10 million, and yet you're— you can't reveal that, right? You have to stay very calm and focused. So can you share kind of like viscerally what that experience was like? And then of course winning.

I mean, obviously crazy experience and definitely the pinnacle of my poker career. You know, winning the World Series of Main Event is, is like the number one goal of every professional poker player. Or any poker player really, but it's one that's not really reasonable attainable. Like even if you play it every year for the rest of your life, like for you to even final table it, you would be a very big dog underdog to do so. So to actually final table it in my 6th try and go all the way and winning it, especially coming back as a short stack, was, you know, still to this day, I don't think it's really. It's really hit me yet.

I'm sure there's just this elation of like dumbfoundedness of like, what, what just happened? But then I have to imagine like, oh no, where do I go from here? Right? Because you, you reached the pinnacle in a, in a sense towards what everyone's hoping to, to do. So what was the next moment like for you?

People winning usually have like a different strategy. Like some people continue playing, some just get out of poker because they realize, okay, well, I've made a bunch of money and that was my goal. But for me, I've never been into poker because of the money. And I think that's helped me tremendously of making decisions because I haven't made a decision from a financial motive or standpoint. I've just tried to play my game and play poker out of a, from a point of passion and love of the game. So knowing that heading in and after winning, I didn't see any reason to hang up the gloves and move on. 'Cause I, you know, I still loved the game and now I felt like, okay, I'm on top of the world in poker. And I almost felt like a responsibility to now be this ambassador for the game and this spokesperson for poker that was gonna widen it to a wider audience and Do all these media obligations that people expect that you do, especially since I was a professional player as well, and I'd already had some success. You know, on the European tour, nothing to this level, but you know, I had some big scores. So the money was massive, like much bigger than anything I ever won before. But it wasn't. I wouldn't say it was completely life-changing. So what I did was I just continued playing. Never really took a break. Actually, like went to a new tournament just a couple of months later, and then just continue playing from there. Looking back at it, though, I wish I hadn't. I wish I had taken some more time to properly digest and you know ask some tougher questions of like what is it that motivates me now? Now once I've reached this huge milestone, post the win. It was definitely something that I struggled with. I could feel that I wasn't as motivated to study or to play. I didn't enjoy it as much because I knew that— I knew the feeling of winning wasn't as good as I had imagined it to be. It was great, don't get me wrong, but like, I did feel like I didn't get to enjoy it because I just couldn't like wrap my head around what happened. And then, you know, all the exposure and everything that comes from it, it was great, but it was also quite overwhelming for me knowing that. And like, what am I playing for now? You know, if I were to win again, would it be twice as nice or would it be less nice because I've already done it? And it's also not really a, like I said, it's not really a reasonable expectation to ever even final table. The main event again. What am I doing this for? And is it time to move on?

It's almost like an identity crisis. What did you land on? Because I know you, you definitely have gone further with it. Where are you going now with your poker playing, but even beyond poker?

Yeah, the identity is, is also a huge thing, you know, giving up. I was only 6 years into my poker career at the time, but It's still 6 years. And then before that, I was, I was a chef. So like, what else would I do? Like, those are the 2 things I know. So when you don't have something new lined up or a new clear path, I think it's very easy and comfortable to just continue what you already know. And, you know, you have all your friends, you, you know, you know people. I was considered myself like very good at what I did, so it would make sense to continue playing. But deep down in me, I felt, still felt like a conflict where I knew I wasn't as motivated as I was before. So I wish I would've taken more time off and just properly digest and maybe explored other things.

How do you think now that you've had like 10 or 11 years of space from winning that, and we were talking about, well, one of the skills of poker playing is stillness. Like, are you able just to be with yourself, your thoughts? I mean, you're a new father as well, so I imagine there's, there's a lot of newness going on right now. But how does stillness show up in your life now?

The way everything sort of worked out is that I've kept playing poker post the win, and, you know, my motivation has gone up and down since, and I've had successes after and Long periods of really hard times as well. So that sort of like refueled my motivation to come back and prove to myself that I still have what it takes to win in an extremely competitive game. But now I'm at a point where I'm definitely looking at life after poker. What's next? Because I feel like I I want to do more outside of the game. I'm very grateful of everything that poker's given me and the platform and and all the success and. The financial freedom of having choices that I otherwise wouldn't have. Alongside my poker career, I've started angel investing, which is something I really enjoy. I see a lot of similarities to poker there, but the main difference is that investing is not a zero-sum game. Like everyone can actually win. So that's what I like about it. And you're building something that's real, like you really building businesses that provide value for people, and that's something that really motivates me.

What kind of investments are you finding yourself attracted to?

So far I've mostly been drawn to the consumer market. I love the consumer sector, I think, because there's a lot of psychology involved. You know, with a physical product that you sell directly to consumer or customers. I love to dissect brands and think about them from a deeper level of like what attracts, what makes some companies work and others don't, like what makes them stand up. Like, is it the branding? Is it the customer service? Is there, you know, their sales channels? All those aspects I love to think about. So that's something that I'm more drawn to rather than B2B SaaS products.

Are you finding yourself gravitating towards food products because you were in restaurant or no?

No, it sort of had the opposite effect. When I was very young, I always dreamt of starting a restaurant. And then as soon as I started working in restaurants and I saw the owners and all the the stress that they were experiencing, I realized quite quickly that that's not who I want to be. Yeah.

Let's share a little bit about that because I talk a lot about it. Sometimes I say how to me, cooks or chefs, you know, in the restaurant business are like pirates, are modern-day pirates because they're living these crazy lives. They're up really late at night. A lot of them are chain smoking. They're on their feet all day. Like in many ways they might be Now, I know not every restaurant is a healthy restaurant, but they might be espousing making food that is to nourish people, but they are the ones that are not nourished.

No, I can totally relate to that. I think it's like a young man's game as well. A lot of fun when you were in your young 20s, but thinking now to go back to that environment does not sound very appealing to me. I do miss some aspects of it, you know, like coming in, you know, working through the list, prepping everything. doors open, you know, service, you know, working as a team, problem solving, cleaning up the kitchen, sharing a beer and talking some shit, and then, you know, go home and then do it all over the following day. That aspect I miss, but as a whole, yeah, I totally agree. It's like one of the hardest professions you can have.

It's sort of strange because you can work in a kitchen And feel like you're part of a team 'cause you're all in the kitchen. But when you're doing your job, you're depending on the kitchen, but most kitchens, you're very isolated. You know, you're quiet. You're not, you're not necessarily talking when you're working. You're, you're all working towards the same goal, but you're independently doing your job. And it's only afterwards or before work starts or after work that you really get to be a part of the community. Is that kind of how poker playing is as well?

Totally. Yeah. I've actually never made that connection, but yeah, you're totally right. And that's probably what drew me to both careers actually, because I'm, I'm quite an introvert as a person, but I also like the social aspects, but like in moderation. And especially when I'm focused, I don't like to talk to people. I just like to focus on what I'm doing. And then we can talk about it after. But yeah, it's definitely a strong parallel there. And poker can be extremely lonely, even though I have lots of friends. Like, we're all competing against each other essentially, and there's no friends at the poker table, and you're only as good as your last result, and each one for themselves. And since it is a zero-sum game, it's very competitive, so you just kind of have to have that mentality.

Is the poker community such— I think of the parallel of like politics. So even after you've played and you guys are, let's say, hanging out together, that you're still protective of your process, just like a politician might not want to reveal all their cards, you know, internal cards. I have to imagine that that's probably how you guys are with each other as well, right? Because you, because you don't want to reveal too much of your process because then they could use that against you next time they play you, right?

No, there's not much of that, to be honest with you, because there's— this was so rare that the same exact situation's gonna occur, especially versus the same person. And nowadays most of the, the big games, they're livestreamed anyway with commentators and hole cards up and everything is like very face up these days. So everyone knows, has a good idea of how everyone plays anyway. But usually like after the day ends and, and we hang out, we don't really talk about poker anyway.

What do you guys talk about? Does it just go to everything else or are poker players secretly into like lumberjacking or something?

Mostly sports.

So, okay.

Cool down by watching sports. Yeah.

I mean, there's so many skills that we've talked about that poker and even chefing embody. I know you created like a, like a program for people to support people in learning poker. to understanding these traits. For the people listening or watching this podcast, what are a few things that people could do to get comfortable with their stillness in your opinion? Or what are some things that you do to support these traits in yourself?

The main thing is to try to operate from a place of rationale and not from emotion. Try to separate the two. I think that's key. And also like thinking long-term, not short-term. As humans, we're sort of drawn to both making decisions from an emotional standpoint.

You talked about like, okay, you won this event and then you had some struggles. How did you deal with the downs?

Yeah, that's the toughest aspect of what I do. What I did was I try to devote even more time to studying and to take breaks, having something to look forward to out that aren't poker related. You know, like I stuck to my routine, you know, exercising every day before I play, you know, eating nutritious food, getting enough sleep, meditating, all those things sort of like hit the reset button every time I play. I know some guys that are just playing and then they go on a bad run and they wake up the next day and they just fire up more games. I can never do that. I need to have a reset and stick to my routine, and then I'm good to go again. Like, regardless of what happened the previous day, pregame ritual is very important to me, very key, and it's something that I've like always stuck to.

Being a new dad and having a child, how is that affecting routine for you? Because clearly this is your first time being a father, so you have no routine. You're figuring it out.

Yeah, it's cool because it kind of forces you to be more flexible and realize that like you just got to do things whenever there's free time and you get a window. And, uh, yeah, you have to be a bit more flexible in, in your rigidness and not expect that everything's gonna happen exactly when you want it, because all of a sudden there's a curveball and he's not sleeping that night, or—

You gotta just be present with it all when you're playing poker. How, how much of it is that presence? I mean, cuz at one point you can have as much strategy as you want, but, but, but you just have to be present with what Where you are in the game, right?

Exactly. You have to be flexible at the poker table too, because you never know what's gonna happen. And there's plenty of curveballs there as well. Your first hand, you might be looking down at pocket aces and think, oh shoot, I'm gonna win this tournament. And then, you know, you get it in versus pocket kings and you're out, you know, the very first hand. Like that could happen. So there's a lot of things that can happen that are totally unexpected and out of your control. So. Just being okay with that, I think, is a good starting point.

So my family and I, we have a deck of cards on our table, our dinner table. We find it really, it keeps us at the table longer and it kind of inspires more conversation and inspires presence because instead of finishing your food and then going off in your own directions, you might stay at the table and playfully, you know, for us, we play gin rummy a lot. But if we were to start playing poker, 'cause that's, that is something I believe is really smart to teach kids, it's precisely for all the things we've already talked about. Because I think the characteristics that poker instills are things that are helpful to have in life. How do you recommend someone who's never really played poker start playing poker?

I guess start by reading up on the rules. What, what hands beat what? And then you can just find basic strategies online. Like it's it's pretty pretty simple, and then I would just have those as a printout on the table so everyone can see to begin with. And then sure, as you become more advanced, you can scratch those and start playing for real, and then maybe discuss the strategies afterwards. I think that's very helpful, and that's something that I do with a lot of my friends and and high-level players. Like we talk about strategy quite openly because. Poker is a game where you play against other humans, right? Yeah, we learn from watching the computer play the computer, but that's not in reality. That's not the end goal. Like, we're still going to continue to play versus humans. Learning how other people think is such a key aspect of the game, and not just in poker. Like, I think in life as well. So I've had tremendous benefit of trying to like dissect and really getting into people's brains and understanding how they think. And it goes as far as like, I can sit down at a table in Vegas playing versus someone I've never played before, but I know the type, you know, I've seen this type before, so I know how he's gonna perceive this situation. And then I know how to, how to counter that and to play against that strategy.

Interesting. So you've gotten really good at reading people then as well.

Yeah, you sort of kind of like group people into certain player types and then you, you, you sort of know their approach to the game and then you're constantly updating that, that information and that process as you're gathering more data, as you're seeing everything is— poker is all about information, right? So in the beginning you have very little information if you're playing versus someone that you've never played with before, but the more you play, the more you see, the more you see how they're Acting, you know, are they acting fast? Are they acting slow? Are they you normally acting fast, but now they're acting slow? Like that's a break in the pattern. So it's a lot about pattern recognition as well. To understand pattern recognition, you need a baseline. So you need to understand. You need to know how this person normally acts. So you're always looking for things that stick out that are deviating from this pattern recognition. And then ask yourself why, like, why is he acting slow now? Is it because he's thinking about bluffing? Is it because he doesn't know how much to bet because he really wants to get paid by his really good hand?

Oh, that's so fascinating. Well, so you have, as I mentioned, you have a program that people can do. How would they get involved with that? Where do they go to find that?

Oh, I'll post a link in the show notes. I do private coaching as well, which is something I really enjoy because then you really get to know the person and I can sort of tailor the studying towards them specifically because poker is quite unique in a way that like everyone has their own playing style and it's quite important to like develop that and to take that into consideration. So it's not like a one-size-fits-all, like it's not that you can just like take one strategy and implement that. Like you have to follow your own strategy.

Once you lock into your style of playing, that you kind of— that, that's the piece that kind of continues onward? Or, or do you find people are all like— is AI getting people to change their styles?

A little bit, yeah. Just because you, you can't get away with as much as you used to. You know, people used to play like absolutely crazy back in the day. They used to play way too many hands. And now you just can't do that because people are too savvy and they just gonna profit from you opening up that much. So the, I think as a whole, people are playing less hands, but they're playing in more aggressively, which is the biggest shift. So back in the day, people used to play more hands, but passive, meaning that they weren't putting as much money in the pot. They're just trying to small ball, it's called, like when you raise a lot of hands, try to take it down. Without risking too much. But nowadays it's like people play less hands, but they play much more aggressively, so they're putting much more pressure on you. So if you really wanna play a hand, you have to be willing to, you know, put in money before the flop, on the flop, on the turn, on, on the river if you wanna see their hand.

Oh man. So you're already speaking. See, I need to learn all these terms. Well, thank you again. And we'll put all your information in the show notes so people can find you on socials and they can find your program as well. Thank you so much for sharing your poker expertise with everybody. Thank you so much for joining me on Everyday Ancestral. If you enjoyed this episode, hit subscribe so you don't miss the next one. You can find the show notes, links, and resources mentioned at eatpluck.com. That's eatpluck.com. And hey, if you And if you know someone who'd get something out of this, share it with them too. Stay curious, live well, and keep it ancestral.