Traditional Healing Meets Modern Mastery: Dr. Adam Gavine’s 2-Day Fix for Chronic Pain Pt. 1

Have you ever had back pain or injuries that don't seem to get better no matter what you do? Are you looking for a miracle? Well, on this episode of Everyday Ancestral, you'll meet Dr. Adam Gaven, an over 16-year sport chiropractor, author, and a miracle worker of sorts. Dr. Adam is the co-founder of the Wasabi Method, an innovative approach to shockwave therapy, Aimed at enhancing pain management, longevity, and overall health. Stick around to learn about movements that help everybody and a mindset that might just change how you treat yourself. I'm your host, James Barry. Please enjoy Dr. Adam Gaven. We met at a conference, and my wife Margaret was about. 4 or 5 days into an injury, a knee injury, it was torn and the patella had popped out and then it got replaced, but she could not walk and she was still on crutches. You basically said this was a 3-day conference. Yeah. I remember. And you were like, she'll be walking in 2 days, maybe 2 and a, 2 and a little bit of change. I think we met maybe on a Thursday, so maybe it was 4 days. You said she'll be walking by Saturday. I just was flattened and you did it and you did it actually, I think if I remember correctly, Friday night. So you actually did it a little earlier than you had, you had said. So you specialize in sports chiropractic?

Yeah, I'm a sports chiropractor.

Why did you choose chiropractic work? And even more specifically, why did you choose sports?

I'll go to basically my origin story. I used to be a decathlete while I was in high school and university. So that's, if people don't know decathlon, it's 10 track and field events over 2 days.

Isn't it deemed one of the most difficult sports in the world too?

Yeah. If you're, if you're like Olympic champion, you're basically viewed as like the fittest person in the world. I used to do that. And when I was 16, I tore my hamstring and I went to a physio and not to bag on physios at all, but I was seeing him for about 6 months, twice a week for 6 months, and I still couldn't run. And so a friend of mine on my track team said, oh, you should go see this chiropractor up where I live, which was the next town over about 20 minutes away. And he's like, oh, he works on Olympians and stuff like that. And I was like, oh, okay. So I went and saw him and he assessed me and he's like, well, it's, it's your adductor muscles, which are, are the problem. So I saw him twice after the second visit. I, you know, I'm just thinking, I'll just ask him, when do you think I'll be able to run again? And he looks at me funny. He goes, you can go for a run tonight. And I was like, what? Like I've been having 6 months of twice a week treatment. And after 2 treatments, you're telling me I can go for a run? I'm like, bullshit. He's like, yeah, you can. And so I went for a run that, that night. And that was the first time in 6 months I was actually able to run without, like, I used to have to stop after about 100 meters because it would just hurt so much. And I was like, oh my God, I can run. So I think I ran like 2 kilometers or something like that that night.

You know, you bring up a really Important point. A lot of people actually don't really understand the difference between physio and chiropractic. So, so what was the difference between what this person did and what you had been getting for 6 months?

What I try and tell people is, unfortunately, people have this kind of stigma around, you know, physio, chiro, osteo. I tell people it's more about the individual. At the end of the day, I had to go to university to get a degree so I can legally put my hands on people. So whether I became a physio or an osteo or a chiropractor, I would probably end up virtually doing the same thing because we all can. Like, I go to physiotherapy seminars all the time, you know? So when people are like, oh, I need to go see a physio about this. I'm like, no, you don't. I know everything they do. So it's more about the practitioner and certain practitioners have a lot more tools in their toolbox than other— like, I've gone to countless seminars over the years, so I have tons of tools in my toolbox. We'll get to one here soon, but it's really about knowing how to use these tools and how good you are. Like any profession, there's good plumbers, there's bad plumbers, there's average plumbers, there's amazing plumbers. And it's the same with what we do. It's not whether you're physio or chiro or osteo, it's Are you good or not?

Okay. Well, let's try to dig into that. I'm always telling people when they work with health practitioners, like nutritionists or something, or I'm always telling them like, they act like they go to one and that's who they're with. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. They're, they're like jeans. They all seemingly see this, seem the same, but they all fit differently. What would someone be looking for to give them a hint like, oh, this person is the right fit? What defines the right fit in your judgment?

There's a few things and it's really person dependent. So actually I wrote a book on back pain with one of my professors from university about 10 years ago. It's called Back Pain. We have a chapter in it that actually kind of defines the attributes of a good practitioner. A good practitioner will do a proper history or intake. So they'll, they'll talk to you about anything you've had in your life, like surgeries, illnesses, any meds you're on, any supplements you're taking. They'll, that'll be comprehensive so that if you have a condition, say you actually have like a problem with your gallbladder, you'll actually get pain that will refer up into your shoulder here. So if I know that, And you're just like, oh, I'll massage that, that muscle to fix it. I'm like, well, that won't fix it cuz your gallbladder's referring pain up there. So it's not actually a muscle problem.

So I would argue that the fact that, you know, the gallbladder pain is back there would constitute, oh, he knows what he's talking about. Cuz most physio would probably not know that. Am I right or wrong about that?

They, they actually should. It, it's more if you're say seeing a, a massage therapist. The difference with massage therapy is they don't, they don't diagnose. They're just like, hurts here, work there. So like I had a guy yesterday that he was like, oh, I think it's just a muscle problem. He thought it was a rib or something. And, and then he's like, oh, I think it's just the muscle in between. And I'm like, well, come see me and I'll diagnose. I'll figure out what's actually the problem. And then we can go about fixing it. When I assessed him, it was actually his T10 vertebra that was really stuck. And because the rib attaches to that vertebra, if that vertebra can't move, neither can the rib. So he was just getting a referral pain from that. So I said to him, if you saw a massage therapist, they wouldn't be able to help you with this. You would have had temporary relief because the muscle freaks out because the rib can't move and the vertebra can't move. So the muscle is trying to pull that vertebra and rib and nothing's happening.

40% of you listening still haven't followed the podcast. Let's drop that to 20%. It takes 3 seconds and helps us reach more folks who need these conversations. Go follow Everyday Ancestral on Apple or Spotify, and let's stay curious together. I feel like I'm already getting a sense though. You just know when you're working with the person at the right fit, because even as you're talking, I'm like, Oh, he knows what he's talking about. And it's, it's not just book learning. I can sense from you that, no, he has been in this business long enough. He's seen enough bodies. He's had his hands on enough people that this is deeper knowledge than just, I just got out of school and I'm, I'm dotting my i's and crossing my t's. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Well, it's wisdom. The definition of wisdom is knowledge plus experience, right? So you can, You can go through university or college and learn everything. You have the first part, you have the knowledge, but you don't have the experience. So you don't have true wisdom. And going back to your question, finding a good practitioner, you want to have a practitioner that has, has wisdom. So like when I listen to people, I can almost figure out just from listening to them what's wrong with them. Like I'll be 5 minutes into a treatment and going through their history. I'm like, I know what's wrong with you.

So it's not visual, it's auditory for you.

It's both because I have the wisdom. I'm like, I've seen this before. It's kind of funny. I basically run an algorithm in my head. And so when you're telling me things, I'm like, yes, no, yes, no, yes, no. That's like, I'm kind of like a computer. I just figure it out. And then when I get to the bottom, I'm like, like with him, I would have been like, it's an 80% chance. It's a It's a vertebra. It's a 15% chance it's a rib and it's a 5% chance it's, you know, a muscle or maybe like an organ or something like that. And when I go to treat someone, I play the odds, right? I'm going to go with the 80%. So with him, that's what I did. So I go, okay, we're going to try this. If I'm right, you'll feel a lot better straight away. So that's what I did. So I adjusted his vertebra and he was like, oh my God, I feel so much better. I'm like, well, I'm right. So I tested my theory.

You got into this field from your own awareness of injury and healing as a decathloner. Well, what's kept you in it? Because clearly you didn't just stop there. I mean, you've grown, you've, you've learned new modalities. You've learned like shockwave therapy and, and the wasabi method, which we'll get to, but like, You're growing. And even as you're talking about this, I feel like, oh no, this isn't just a job. This is a passion. When did that kind of moment happen that it went from, oh wait, this guy helped me, this other guy didn't, this is interesting too, then like, oh no, this is my mission.

I really enjoy helping people. Like with your wife, if my bills were paid and everything, I would do this for free. You know, just so I can help people and see their faces light up like Margaret's did after I had her walking, because that fills my cup. They always talk about, you know, you got to do something that gives you purpose and meaning. And I've been told I have a gift and I enjoy helping people. Yeah. It's just fun for me. I love, I love learning too. I would literally go to seminars every weekend if I could. I had someone tell me a few years ago, when he goes to seminars, he basically takes his brain out and leaves it at the door because he was like, when do you learn the best? When you know nothing. Like when you go to kindergarten, you know nothing. So you're like a sponge, you take everything in. And so I try to do that when I go to seminars. I don't have these preconceived notions. I just go, I pretend I'm dumb and I'm just like, okay. Give me all the information. After the seminar, that's when I synthesize it. I go, okay, I don't believe that. This is good. Or I'm going to look more into that. And then I'll try things. So I don't just dismiss things. I'll actually try them. That's kind of fun thing when you go back into practice after seminar is you're like, oh, I'm going to try this new thing and see how that works. So every year I'm learning new things because I'm like, okay, I learned this at the seminar. I'm going to apply it and see how it works. And then if it works well, I'm going to keep it. If it doesn't work so well, I'm going to discard it.

This is on your book cover. I even treat the cause, not the symptom. And I love that because that's how I look at nutrition and food as well. As the coauthor of a book on back pain, what are some key strategies you recommend for individuals to maintain a healthy spine, for example, in their daily lives?

It's different for everyone, but a key one is we talk about spinal hygiene, almost like you have your oral hygiene, you know, you brush your teeth and you floss, and then that keeps your oral hygiene ticking over. So that's what I tell people or patients to think of your spine like it needs movement. As I'm sure you've heard the term movement is medicine. Our spine's meant to move. And unfortunately nowadays, people, people have jobs where we're sitting at desks and stuff all day, or they're a truck driver and they're just sitting, sitting down all day. We don't move and lift and bend and twist the way we should, or the way this, this body's designed. We're all meant to be hunter-gatherers. Unfortunately, this is how we hunt or gather now in front of a computer and sitting at a desk.

Yeah. Order sandwich from, you know, local shop.

Yeah, exactly.

That's how I just hunted.

It actually makes us weak. So I tell people a lot of it's just, just moving and you have to figure out where you're at. Some people, I think I was alluding to before that I don't make the rules. I just know the rules. And one of the rules is you have to start where you're at. If you try, like, unfortunately things like CrossFit, they try and get everyone doing the same thing. It's like, oh, you can do, you can do cleans. And it's like, no, you can't. You can't even do a normal squat without weight. It's like the perfect recipe for injury. You know, it's like, let's have unfit people do something new that they really don't know how to do. Then we load them up and then we get them to go well into fatigue. You violated every rule of physiology there. And so it's inevitable that you're going to end up injured because you've broken all the rules. So again, learn the rules. And if you don't know them, you can go see a professional, someone like me, and I can teach you the rules. It's, they're not complicated and they're not secret. I tell people all the rules all the time, but it's just movement. Motion is the lotion. So you gotta move, but move in an appropriate way. You know, don't be doing cleans if you can't do a squat. And it's like, okay, I had, I had a 93-year-old patient. I'll, I'll never forget. She's like, I can't squat. And then I put her up against a wall and I said, slide down the wall 1 inch. And she slid down the wall 1 inch. And I go, now stand back up. And then she did that. And I go, congratulations. You just, you just did a squat. But that's where she was at. And then after a month, I had her slide down the wall 2 inches, and then I had her do 3 inches. So I was like, start at level 1, and then we go to level 2, and then we go to level 3. There's a natural progression and you can't skip steps. Well, you can, but you'll pay a price. You can't go from crawling to running. You have to go from crawling to standing, to walking, to running. That's the progression. There's no skipping steps.

So people love hearing like 3 top movements or 3 movements you can start today. Right. And I, and I'm hearing you that sometimes you can't just give a blanket exercise or movement because it's not necessarily getting specific with that individual. However, if you were To give a couple of basic movements that people listening today can be like, hey, I'm pretty sedentary. I'm going to start doing these 3 things that Dr. Adams suggested. Are there kind of just 3 that you've found in your 16+ years that are like, you know what, I've seen from A to Z, and if everyone just did these 3 things to start, they wouldn't need 25% of what I give them.

One is just kind of your basic flexion extension of your spine. So whether it's getting down on all fours and doing what we call like the cat-cow.

Cat-cow.

You can also do it seated. So, so the problem with that one is some of my older patients, they can't, if they get down on the ground, they can't get back up. So what I'll do is I'll get them to do like a seated version, which is they're bending and extending. It's pretty hard to hurt yourself doing stuff like that. So I always try and give something that people can do and that's safe. Those are the 2 kind of caveats I look for. Can you do it? And 2, is it safe? Another one is just going for walks.

I love that one.

Every human should be able to walk. I dislike seeing when people are in these scooters and stuff like that because Once you start down that road, it leads to more disability and dysfunction. Your goal should always be to, I'll use this as an interim thing until I sort myself out, until I get strong enough to be able to walk on my own again. We don't do that. We make it like, oh, just go on the scooter and you'll be right. And it's like, well, you're no longer weight-bearing. You're no longer walking. There's tons of calories you're not burning just because you're not standing or walking.

So those suggestions seem very non-invasive to me. And I know that's a really important focus that you recommend techniques to help heal and repair the body. What does that mean though? Non-invasive? Because I know that technically what you just said were examples, but we have to compare it to something. So what is an invasive technique versus a non-invasive?

So invasive just means that we're opening you up or putting something inside you, whether it's a pill or a needle or like an injection or surgery. So those are the main invasive techniques. So non-invasive is pretty much anything that Doesn't do those.

So you have a few of them in your arsenal though. I know one of them is called Active Release Techniques, ART. Can you explain what ART is and how it benefits patients dealing with musculoskeletal issues?

So Active Release Technique, it's, it's a myofascial release technique. So myo meaning muscle, fascial is basically we have throughout our body, it's, we have like this cling wrap. Around all our muscles. And a lot of people's problems are actually due to fascial problems, not necessarily the muscle. Think of it like, you know, when you buy like a sausage, it has the skin around the meat. That's the fascia. So if you imagine that skin on that sausage being like twisted or tangled, the meat inside can't move and do its thing. Okay. So what I have to do is work on the fascia to free it up. And then the muscle underneath it can move and glide and contract and do what it's supposed to.

Is that the same thing as visceral manipulation?

No, that's different. Visceral means organ.

Okay.

Okay. Your organs have fascia as well. Everything has fascia. So think of the body, it's almost, we're like a Russian doll. If I peel your skin off, there'll be a layer of fascia. And then if we go deeper, there'll be another layer of fascia. It basically insulates or protects every layer and separates every layer from the layer above it.

Okay. Yeah. Interesting. So ART is more your outer layer, and then as, and then people that do like visceral manipulation, that's really where they're supporting the release of certain organs that are stuck to that fascia maybe.

Yeah. So it's just different release techniques. So think of things as layers, right? So if, if I have one muscle here and I have another muscle here, you got to remember they're, they're covered in this like cling wrap, the fascia. The fascia from this muscle can stick to the fascia from this muscle. So think of it like 2 sheets of paper. I should be able to move one sheet or the other sheet relative to, to one another. Now imagine if I, if I put glue in between the 2 sheets of paper. Now when I try and move the top one, the bottom one moves with it. They can't move independently. So that happens a lot in the body. And that's pretty much when I work on people, that's what I'm trying to work because I've felt 100,000 bodies. I can feel that straight away. I can go, that's sticking.

What results in the sticking though? Is it nutritional? Is it lack of activity? Injury? It's just movement.

When we move, we get these sliding surfaces to move on each other and it kind of lubricates and keeps it moving. So when we don't move it, we almost become like the Tin Man in The Wizard of Oz. We can't move. These muscles get stuck on each other. And so think of it, the longer you haven't moved something, the more Stuck that becomes. So imagine like if you didn't brush your teeth for a day, you'd have a day worth of gunk on your teeth right now. Imagine if you didn't brush your teeth for a week. Now you have a week worth of gunk on your teeth. So this is how it works with the fascial world is if I don't move this muscle, I'm going to have a day and then a week and then say a month. Once it gets to like a month or more. All of a sudden this glue becomes like concrete. You can no longer get rid of it through stretching or moving. So that's why I laugh when some people are like, oh, I'm just going to stretch this. And I'm like, I hand them like something made of steel. And I'm like, well, try and stretch this. You're going to have the same success. It won't stretch. So that's where you have to pay someone like me to go in and break down those adhesions between the muscles so that They can slide and glide and do the way, do the work they were meant to do.

And are you mostly doing that with your hands through ART or is, does ART include devices?

No, ART is strictly hand. It's done all done by hand. There, there are other techniques like Graston or instrument-assisted soft tissue treatment where you use tools. They're almost, they look kind of like knives, like They have a beveled edge so they can't cut you. When you're working tissues with instruments, we're stimulating these cells, which are called fibroblasts. And fibroblasts are kind of like repairmen of the body. So when people are like, I'm breaking up adhesions or fascial bits that are stuck, we're actually stimulating the release and proliferation of these fibroblasts, which are basically like repairmen that go and kind of clean up the mess. So I'm telling your body, you know, like clean up on aisle 5, clean up on aisle 5, and then your brain will send all these repairmen to kind of clean up the mess. That's kind of the physiology of it.

Given your background in sports, competitive sports, in fact, is there something or advice you have for athletes to prevent injuries? And maybe it's not just athletes, but maybe in general, what are some things that we should all be thinking about to prevent injury?

You've opened a bit of a Pandora's box there because there's, there's a lot of different views on, on this. But my view is essentially, I like this concept of prehabilitation. So you have rehabilitation, which you do after you're injured, but prehabilitation is, is knowing what to do in order to prevent injuries. For instance, I've been accepted to do my PhD at the University of Sydney. On the Achilles tendon. And what the research shows with the Achilles tendon is if I have you do exercises preventatively, your risk of getting Achilles tendinopathy go down significantly. Say I was working with like an NBA basketball team. I would have every player do these exercises every day, just so they don't end up Because the Achilles tendon, it's the most ruptured tendon in the whole body. If you rupture it, like Kevin Durant ruptured his a couple of years ago, you're out for basically a year. And then most of the guys that come back from that, they're never quite as agile and strong and functional as they were. So the key is to avoid it. You know, the same with ACL, they do it, they do this in soccer in Europe. They have all their guys on the team do exercises virtually every day. So they, they don't end up with an ACL tear. You got to know what to do, what exercise is appropriate and why you're doing it. Because people just do, oh, let's get fit. And it's like, well, if I'm doing bicep curls, that's not going to prevent my Achilles from tearing, is it? It's figuring out What are the most common injuries? What's the risk for every individual as well? We can do things like, I, we can image all these players. We can look at their Achilles and go, hey, you're, you actually have a bit of a problem there. So we're going to, you have to do these because you will end up with an injury if you don't address this.

What I hear you saying is if you, let's say if you're a runner, you're going to do certain pre-warmup that is specific to running. And I know we talked about exercises, but what's the pre-warmup for the everyday person who's not the athlete, you know, who's not the basketball star. You mentioned maybe the cat camel. That's technically, you know, a warmup, right? Are there others?

Oh, there's, there's tons, but it's very bespoke. I don't like giving out general information. I'm always very specific because You'll get better results if I give you something specific. So that's why I tell people that rather than just go on the internet and, you know, watch these influencers and it's like, oh, this guy does this. And it's like, yeah, but that's good for him. Just like, just like diet. You watch someone, they're like, oh, you know, vegetarian worked super well for me. I lost 50 pounds or whatever. And then another guy's like, oh, I do carnivore and I lost 100 pounds. And it's like. Which one's going to work best for you? That's what you want to know. It's not like what worked best for Bob or what worked best for Sally. Who cares? Unless that diet has your name written on it, it's not for you. So exercise is the exact same. It needs to be bespoke, but you just go see someone like myself who really knows their stuff to help you figure out what would be appropriate because you change all the time. If you're coming back from, say, holidays, you were on Christmas holidays, most people weren't working out. Most people were drinking a little bit more than they usually do, eating more desserts than they usually do. You're at a different point of health than you were probably 2 months before that. You might've been healthier when you were running every day and not eating and not drinking as much. It needs to be tailored to the individual and where they're at.

One thing that I was really taken by when we first met is how you talked about the body and, you know, bringing back up Margaret. So she had injured her knee and you kept saying to her, your knee has to relearn how to move again. Can you expand on that? Because I feel like really what I hear you saying is that we shouldn't wait till we get hurt, that we should actually be working with someone To see where our body is currently at and what it needs to maintain, whatever it is that we do on a daily basis. And so I feel like this is connected to that same concept of like, wherever we're at with our energy, our stress, our current lifestyle, it's almost like we have to remind our body how to move.

Yeah, that's exactly right. I'm glad you're understanding that. Because a lot of people don't get that concept. So going back to what I was saying, it needs to be bespoke. So I got to see where you're at. So when I work with patients in my clinic, I basically assess them to figure out where they're at. So I'll put them through a bunch of functional movements and then I kind of grade them and that identifies issues. So I'll be like, do a lunge and then I'll watch them lunge. And if I see their knee coming, kind of creeping across the midline, then I know that that needs to be worked on. So a lot of people just think they can just fix things by thinking about them, like posture, for instance. Everyone's like, oh, I just have to be more conscious of my posture. And I'm like, yeah, but what are you going to do the other 23 hours and 59 minutes of the day? You can't be conscious of your posture all day because you get busy doing things. A better approach is to, I'm going to give you exercises that are going to work your postural muscles, will get them stronger, and then you will naturally adopt a good posture and you don't even have to think about it. And it's like, does that not sound a lot better than being conscious of your posture all day long? Because you got other things to think about. Right.

I wonder when we're born, What we're carrying in our body can sometimes play out in the rest of our lives. And I, and I say this because my youngest daughter has been tight from day one. She's just, she's very like constricted. Part of me thinks it's maybe generational anxiety. I don't know, energies that are beyond her. I don't know. But do you see that kind of stuff playing out in the body? I mean, Because sometimes I think of the body as almost like the way a sculptor talks about a sculpture is like when they saw the stone, the sculpture was already in it. They were just chiseling away the missing pieces. But really, I couldn't say that with my daughter because she came in with something that I'm not even sure is hers.

You're touching on kind of metaphysical things. I personally believe that we have— the research is actually showing this generational, like trauma and stuff like that. I think they showed descendants of people that were in the Holocaust, their metabolism's totally different because those people were basically starved. You've probably seen that as well, have you?

I haven't seen that. That's fascinating.

Yeah. So if you were starved, your body, your metabolism will adapt so that if you get any food, it will want to store it as fat straight away. Because your body goes, I don't know when I'm going to eat again. So everything I get, I'm going to try and store as fat so that I cannot die. That changes the epigenetics. And then say that woman had a daughter, she's going to get that epigenetic attribute as well. So all of a sudden she's eating normally and she keeps piling on weight and doesn't know why. Well, it's because Her body had received information from her mother to, to keep on storing fat as quickly as possible, because that helped her mother survive. There's all these adaptations that, that can occur. Like, for instance, people think like tight muscles are bad, but when they, when they actually test people for like jumping, the people that jump the highest are actually the people with the tightest calf muscles. And they have actually shown like when people stretch, those people stretch their calves, their performance goes down. So think of the calf muscle, think of it like a spring. If the spring's really tight and loaded, when it releases, you get more energy, you get more kinetic energy. But if you release some of that tension, then it doesn't have as much kinetic energy to give. So a lot of these athletes going and stretching For something like that, it actually hinders their performance.

Yeah, I see what you mean. This is Pandora's box because then it's like, well, then are we, you know, how we're born, is that kind of our super skill or whatever is like the body we're born into? Is that kind of what we're meant to have? How much should we be manipulating it?

Think of it almost like you're a character in a video game. You will have certain attributes that will make you better at certain things and worse at others. Say you're 5'2 as a man and you weigh 80 pounds. Well, you're not gonna be really good at the World's Strongest Man or shot put or discus. However, you're gonna be really good at being a jockey. Unfortunately, we don't do that with school and stuff. We don't figure out what people's talents are and attributes are. And guide them down that path. By contrast, like someone who's 6'5 and 300 pounds, they're not going to be a good gymnast or jockey because they're just too big. They're not going to be world-class at those sports, but they're going to be awesome at shot put or discus or World's Strongest Man.

Thank you for joining us for part 1. In part 2, This is where you start to learn about the therapy that he worked on Margaret with. This is where we dive into the Wasabi Method and how Dr. Gavine uses shockwave therapy to trigger rapid healing, improve mobility, and create lasting results. It gets really fascinating. If you found this helpful, please leave a review, share this episode, or tag someone who Needs this insight. See you in part two. Thank you, and stay curious. Thank you so much for joining me on Everyday Ancestral. If you enjoyed this episode, hit subscribe so you don't miss the next one. You can find the show notes, links, and resources mentioned at eatpluck.com. That's E A T P L U C K. And hey, if you know someone who'd get something out of this, share it with them too. Stay curious, live well, and keep it ancestral.