1163: Privatizing Fannie & Freddie, Mortgage Rates & Wells Fargo Lending

If you're that kind of person and.

You'Ve got the capital and you're a great negotiator, you've got great people skills.

You could probably be a successful flipper. But it's like a job, right?

If you're not flipping, you're not making money. And that's why I prefer income property, because you just make money every month.

Welcome to the Creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You're about to learn a new slant on investing, some exciting techniques and flash fresh new approaches to the world's most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine, self made multimillionaire who's actually been there and done it. He's a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who's owned properties in 11 states, had hundreds of tenants and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason's footsteps on the road to your Financial Independence Day. You really can do it. And now here's your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.

Welcome to episode 1163. 1163. Thank you so much for joining us today. I've got Adam here with me and we are going to do the show today, but we are going to have a mortgage update on the show as well. So let's dive in. Adam, welcome.

Hey, it's good to be here with you today.

Hey, the first thing I think we should talk about is good old Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac companies during the financial crisis, that they really are companies. Right. A lot of people think they're part of the government or something like that. And well, I guess since the financial crisis 10 years ago, they became part of the government. They were founded by the government or I don't know exactly how that worked really. But you know, the government helped create these entities and they are government sponsored entities. And then during the financial crisis, our government with all its wisdom, for better or worse, decided that there was an implicit guarantee to investors as to the performance of, for example, Fannie Mae, right, the bigger of the two, and sort of took over and put it into a conservatorship. And then there was some talk about shutting these government sponsored entities down. And I am totally in favor of that. I think it would be a pretty significant blow to the real estate market for a short time, but it would increase rents. Remember, it's always a two sided equation. You, if you see financing dry up in the marketplace because the secondary market doesn't have the power of the government behind it. And that's what Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are, is secondary markets that allow lenders to originate mortgages and sell them off. They provide tons of liquidity in the mortgage market. And they also have underwriting guidelines for what's known as agency loans. Okay, so there are Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac guidelines.

But.

But this gives lenders a lot of liquidity because they can make a loan, sell it off, make a loan, sell it off, make a loan, sell it off. So they only need to have a small, what's called a warehouse line of their own for the lender. Right. They don't really need to have the money to make all these loans. They just have a warehouse line and they fund the loan on their warehouse line and then they sell it off as long as it meets the underwriting criteria. But now there are some changes being proposed to take it back to the way it used to be before the Great Recession. And Trump has. What's he done, Adam? He signed a memo about this, right?

Yeah, he signed a memo saying that he wants to figure out if they can do it. He wants to reform the system. And it looks like it's not something that's going to be happening in the next year or two or anything, but they're talking about moving it back and they're talking about also when they do it, they would increase the regulatory oversight. So even though it wouldn't be government backed, it would be government watched, I guess you could say, for a while. But it's grown so huge, I think I saw it has over $5 trillion of mortgages backed that if they're going to require them to have any sort of reserve at all, it's going to be difficult to do that as a group.

Right. So the question is, what would this mean to investors? What? Well, at first blush, what it would mean is probably less liquidity in the mortgage market, which could mean upward pressure on interest rates or just less funding available. Initially, that's the initial thing. But then things always kind of adjust, right. As they sort of everybody relaxes and capitalism does such a great job of allocating resources. New investors come into the market, funds are created, then the liquidity would ostensibly increase again, and that would happen. Now, ultimately, what I think ought to happen is I think these ought to be just completely private without any what's called implicit guarantee. Right. That's what the government, when they stepped in during the Great Recession, that's what they said. They said, look, there's this implicit guarantee, right? It's not an actual legal guarantee, is my understanding just kind of expected? And so to help the economy, we're just going to step in and, you know, make it part of the big bailout. Right. And, you know, part of the trillions of dollars the government spends bailing everything under the sun out because it's all too big to fail. Yeah.

Now, I will say, I mean, banks themselves, as everybody knows, banks can just create money when they want. But the thing is, I think if they do this, you'll see the same amount of money being available, but you're essentially only going to get rates like you can get for your 11th and bigger properties currently. So your interest rates will go up, but the amount of money that's available will still be essentially infinite.

Well, banks can create money by lending. Right. Because we all know if you're regular listeners to the show, that money is lent into existence. That's how it is created. That's the fractional reserve banking system and that's the, you know, the creature from Jekyll Island. Right. That the Federal Reserve and all the other central banks around the world, basically, that's the way the monetary schem, or shall we say scam works. And it is the way it is. So they've got to lend in order to create new money. Right. It's hard to create new money without lending it into existence. But when they lend, it creates a multiplier effect. So when $100,000 is lent on a mortgage, it's really a lot more than that is created. So this is really just esoteric. We've taken deep dives into this on prior episodes and it's complicated.

Yeah, I'm just saying the same amount of money will be available, but interest rates are going to go up because whenever it's private, the investors in the private group are going to say, hey, we want more of a higher interest rate to protect ourselves. We want bigger returns. So the same amount of money will be available. It'll just be more expensive. So that's why I think rates will go up to what you see currently. After you, Fannie and Freddie.

Out in the world of the hedge funds and the private equity, these lenders that are, they're not hard money lenders, they don't charge that much. They're like this in between step. And that has really made a fairly significant play in the marketplace coming out of the Great Recession. And so another example of how capitalism allocates resources really well. But like I say, for real estate investors, one of the beautiful things look at if You're a self reliant person and you do not believe in taking government handouts as I do not. Right? Well, generally I'll break my rules sometimes and here's how I'm about to tell you. And if you believe in, you got to make your own way in the world and maybe have libertarian or conservative bent, you would think philosophically this is terrible, but to take advantage of it because you're not getting any other government benefits, Right? Real estate has always been subsidized by the government in the US since the Great Depression back in the 30s when these entities were created and when they came about. So take advantage of it, you know, get your government handout too. Right. These interest rates are artificially low because we have these government sponsored secondary market entities in the US and many places around the world don't have this. The US Is a really special market in that way. So hey, take advantage of it. It's great. There is the welfare for real estate investors. See, there's welfare for you too.

And I think it's going to be a tough sell because since as long as the US has the American dream that, you know, everybody should own a home is the prevailing wisdom, it's going to be hard to convince the people in the government, hey, why don't we, you know, raise the interest rates and get the government out of it. It's just going to be a tough sell for me to believe is going to happen. Especially if you all remember the 2018 meet the masters when you showed us that, what was it, every 1% of interest rate hikes is a couple million.

1 million new renters.

So it's going to be tough to sell that to the politicians.

I'm glad you brought that up, Adam, by the way. The real estate industry has such a giant lobby that folks, you don't have to worry too terribly much about your goodies being taken away because there's a lot of people in this with you. It's pretty unlikely that our politicians will take those goodies away. But you know, there's always talk about it. But I'm glad you mentioned that because really before your time, Adam, we presented that, I believe in 2010 or 2011. That was a presentation that Doug and I did at Meet the Masters, that's, you know, 1% in interest rates equals 1 million new renters. And we only recapped that at the 2018 Meet the Masters, the one where Ron Paul spoke, the one in La Jolla, California, that was really just revisiting that to see how that Prediction had turned out and by gol, it turned out to be true. So the rate of homeownership has declined. That is, I think, very good news for real estate investors. So we'll see. I mean, Trump just kind of kick started this process. It's a lengthy process, but yeah, it's interesting. I mean, ultimately, I wish Fannie and Freddie would just completely go away. I'm probably the only guy in real estate that says that. And listen, I get that initially that would probably cause some price depreciation. Well, not probably. I think almost certainly it would. But it would cause rents to increase. And then after a few years, after capitalism does its thing and people come into the market and so forth, there would be more liquidity out there. Again, liquidity would dry up for a little while. And by the way, I should share something else. This is a bit of a tangent, but it just reminded me of it. I am not a fan of investing in condos and I can be persuaded to do anything if the deal is good enough. But if you've got an apples to apples comparison of a condo to a single family home. What I just alluded to is one of the exact reasons I do not like condos, okay? The condo deal has to be awfully good to make up for the potential pitfalls. And one of them is, is that when a condo association gets into litigation, and they always do, litigation is just part of the world, folks. Grow up, okay? It's just, it's just part of the world we live in. It's sad and pathetic, but it's just part of the world, okay? And so, you know, have good planning and asset protection and estate planning and all that stuff. We've talked about that many times on the show. But if you invest in a condo and that HOA gets sued or has to sue the developer, which it almost always does, okay, over construction defects. And they all have that 10 year timeframe where they got to sue the developer. So some point in there, the HOA is going to sue the developer and say construction defects, blah, blah, blah. They almost always do, right? And people sue HOAs all the time, right? So it goes both directions. The lenders may well stop lending in that community because of the litigation, because they don't know which way it's going to turn out. Litigation is such a wild card. You know, you could have the best case in the world and it'll just go against you because it's like gambling. You know, put your money on red or black or pull the slot machine and you know, yes, There are laws and logic and all that kind of.

Stuff, but you get the wrong judge and boom.

Yeah, you know, you get a judge that doesn't like the way you comb your hair, and it's just unbelievable. It really is. So the lender doesn't know which way that litigation will go, and so they'll just stop lending in that community. And what'll happen, of course, is the prices will just collapse because there's no liquidity in that condo community and the neighboring communities or the single family homes because they don't have that problem at that exact time. They'll have liquidity and all the buyers will go there. And so the prices can really, really fall when that financing collapses. So that's the same concept that we're talking about here in the broader picture with Fannie Freddie. So I just wanted to share that little sideline. Hey, Adam. On another note, you know, right after Meet the Masters last week, my girlfriend and I did something pretty unique. And I just thought I'd share it with the listeners because it, it's very unique. Like, this is something that diplomats don't get to do that all kinds of important people have a hard time pulling off. Did you happen to look at my Facebook and see what I did?

Well, you told me about it, and then I looked at Facebook and I have to admit, it was, it was pretty cool.

How many people get to do that, huh? Pretty. Pretty unique. I know I haven't, you know, for years I tried to do this. And when I was a kid growing up in Los Angeles, and at one time I lived in Long beach, the other time I lived in la and on either side I drove back and forth because I worked at my mom's businesses when I lived in la, Long beach, and the other way around. So I always did that drive up and down the 405 freeway, and I always passed this thing and I always wanted to do it. And when I was a kid, I always loved aviation. I still love aviation. And that is. Drumroll, please. The Goodyear Blimp. I wanted to ride in the Goodyear Blimp. And a couple of years ago, I saw a charity auction come up and I bid. I think I paid like $4,700 for this, but I won. And I just said, I'm riding on the Goodyear blimp. I'm going to win this auction. So I pay five grand. We went up in the Goodyear Blimp. It was pretty cool for a 45 minute ride. Some of the interesting things I learned, though, is number One. Do you know the Goodyear blimp is the most recognizable corporate icon on Earth? Oh, no doubt. In the entire world. Yeah. I mean, isn't that amazing? And the blimp we were in was a nice new airship. These are, of course, helium, not hydrogen like the Hindenburg, because hydrogen is obviously very flammable. But, you know, when I watched some videos of the Hindenburg, and, I mean, it just looked glorious. I mean, hydrogen gives a lot more lift than helium, so it's better for floating. But it's obviously very dangerous and highly flammable, so it's not used. It was like a cruise ship. I mean, like this luxurious, big cruise ship with this blimp that we went in. It's just a little tiny cockpit that I think maxes out at, like, 15 people. And it does have a little really bad bathroom on it that you don't want to use. And. But it's really cool inside. I did post some pictures on the jasonhartman.com face page, so go to facebook.com Jason Hartman.com I know that's like double dot com. But anyway, that's the page, and you can see some of my Goodyear blimp video and pictures. But I'll post some more there because it is just an amazing experience being up there floating, where you can just hover and be totally still, and you can just hover indefinitely. You know, there's no time limit, except for.

For you, it's 45 minutes.

Well, yeah, yeah, for us. But the airship could stay there. Right? What's interesting about it is that that blimp cost $30 million. Now, that's a lot for, like, a 15 passenger craft. Okay. It's super inefficient. That's why there are so few blimps in the world. Right? It's 30 million bucks is what the pilot told us. The training to train on them. There are no simulators because there's hardly any blimps. Why would they make simulators? So all of the train, the pilot training, it takes a year beyond your normal pilot training. Now, in terms of aviation, I have 33 hours toward my pilot's license. You only need 45. That's the requirement. But usually people take more just because they want to be better at it. Right here, you need tons of hours because there's no simulators for it. You have to do it live in the actual airship. So that was pretty interesting, you know, and going over Los Angeles and seeing everything in the Goodyear blimp, that was just a super exciting Experience, so just thought I'd share that.

30 million actually isn't bad if you consider the fact that they're. All you have to do is float up in the air and everybody in Los Angeles sees you. I mean, that's only. What. From that perspective, it's only four or five minutes of advertising on the Super Bowl.

Actually, that's a really good way to look at it. Yeah, you're right. And the blimp is a much better deal long term. You know, given that point that you make, I'm kind of surprised more companies don't operate blimps because it is really good advertising. Yeah. Interesting, interesting. I can't wait till we have flying cars. You know, I've been waiting for that one for a long time. They've been promising that one forever. When's it coming?

I think right after Back to the Future. We were going to have them, weren't we? Or something like that.

Yeah, right after Back to the Future, exactly. That's right. We got a couple other things to talk about. Take your pick. The multifamily scam or what?

I think we got to start with your favorite bank in the whole wide world.

Oh, yeah? Yeah. Well, let's. Wells Fargo. The most pathetic, disgusting big bank out there nowadays.

But consistent.

Yeah, but consistently disgusting and pathetic. What's interesting is at Profits in Paradise in Hawaii back in November, at our event there and at Meet the Masters, we invited a Wells Fargo lender. And one of our clients, he chided me as I was walking over to get some coffee and the guy was speaking up there. He said, jason, how much that guy have to pay you to get on your stage? And my honest answer is nothing, because he didn't buy a sponsorship or anything. But I would have gladly taken his money had he offered it. But I'll tell you, just make sure you get this straight. As disgusting as Wells Fargo is from a banking perspective, I would happily take their money in the form of a loan. Okay? There's a difference. When you're borrowing money versus depositing money, that's a different relationship. You know the old saying, he who has the gold makes the rules? Well, the lender has the gold until you get it and borrow it, then you have the gold, so the power dynamic shifts. So I would gladly borrow money from Wells Fargo all day long. I just wouldn't bank with those disgusting scumbags. But hey, if they want to give me money, I'll take it.

So you couldn't take his money to let him speak because they would have had to have opened about a couple thousand shadow accounts for people.

Yeah. You know, really, I shouldn't laugh. It's so pathetic how disgustingly unethical that company is. But we had some big news recently, right? Their CEO just abruptly quit.

I mean, it's amazing how many scandals this guy was able to make it through without being fired. And then to say, oh, I quit. You should have quit how many years ago? How many scandals ago? How many billions of dollars of fines ago?

Yeah, exactly. Well, this is Tim Sloan, right? And you know the picture in the article that we're looking at? Adam, you know, he's laughing and reading. He's like, oh, that's just the worst. That's the worst image. He should have a serious, somber image. If that was a news release and that's where it came from, boy, I wouldn't have put that picture with it. God.

But it's another time. Another time that you and Elizabeth Warren. Agreed. So Elizabeth Warren tweeted as soon as it came out that Tim Sloan should have been fired a long time ago.

Yeah, he's disgusting. I got to tell you something. A lot of people don't really make this distinction. They might suffer from what I always tease my mom of suffering of. I gave this a phrase, a name. I call it knee jerk capitalism. Knee jerk capitalism. See, a lot of people operate under the belief, and I used to also. Okay, so I think I can speak to this because I used to believe it myself, that Wall street, big banks, big tech companies, those big disgusting tech companies like Google, Facebook, Amazon, you know, yes, they do some great things, no question, but they also do some really bad things and they deserve criticism. So people, people operate under the belief that this is capitalism. This is great. I love capitalism. But these companies do not operate in a capitalist environment. They operate in a crony capitalist environment with hitmen called lobbyists. They pay off politicians to get favorable laws. They rig markets. They do not operate under the same capitalism that you and I in our corporate job or, you know, our small business operate under. We operate under real capitalism, raw capitalism, okay? All we've got to protect us are some laws that, you know, make for a hopefully level playing field, which they don't, but ideally they would. But their playing field isn't level at all. These big banks, these big tech companies, any of these Wall street groups, they constantly destroy competitors, stifle innovation, throw their weight around. They're absolutely disgusting. They're not capitalist. Please don't believe that this is capitalism. In the big mega corporate world. They do not operate in the same capitalism that we all know, love and hopefully love and believe in. I love capitalism, but they're not capitalists. Wells Fargo is not operating in a capitalist environment. If they were, they'd be out of business a long time ago because they're just disgusting. They're disgusting company. So, anyway, that's that. Adam, let's go to your Mortgage update, and then we'll be back with a quick announcement.

Welcome to the April edition of the Mortgage Update. We have Joe the Lender with us. Joe, how are you doing today?

Good, Adam. Thank you very much for having me.

Absolutely. Now, we heard a little bit at Meet the Masters about what mortgage rates are doing, but can you give investors an idea of where investment rate mortgages are at the moment?

Yeah, absolutely. They're better than we've seen in recent memory, you know, that being the last three to six months. So let's say for a base based on $100,000 purchase, for example, so 20% down, we're selling that rate today at about 5.5%, no points. And then if you wanted to do 25% down, so that would be like a $75,000 mortgage, we're looking somewhere in the 4.875 to 5% range, you know, depending on credit. SC and I base those rates off of premium credit scores. You know, the higher the score, you know, the better the rate. So about 4.875 for 25% down and five and a half for 20% down.

And now the Fed came out and said, you know, they weren't raising rates and they don't see themselves raising it for the rest of the year. And I know the Fed doesn't have much impact in that regard to it, but the fact that they're saying they're not going to raise because of the economy, has that had any impact? Like the whole idea of the economy not necessarily growing as fast, has that had any impact on the rates that people are seeing? And also, can you address the fact that rates have been dropping while we've been seeing the economy potentially weaken?

The latest statement or sentiment from the Fed has just changed course a little bit. It was somewhat of a. I wouldn't say a shock to the economy or shock to the market as much as it was just an unexpected announcement. Previously, they had announced that they were looked to raise rates a couple of times in 2019, and they reversed course on that altogether and said that they were going to stand firm and not raise rates at all for the upcoming year. So Treasuries went into a Bit of a spin and we saw some better US treasuries in the 10 year in particular went to lower levels than we've seen in recent times. So that's why our mortgage rates have begun to improve. Mortgage rates are more often than not closely tied to the treasury and the 10 year note rather than the Fed movement. However, there is also some manufacturing in Europe and China has weakened. There's also some indication in the services industry within the US Economy that there are some broad inflationary concerns there. So I think to answer the question specifically though, because the Treasuries went down a little bit, that our mortgage rates seem to improve, coupled with the announcement that the Fed was not intending to raise rates again. However, if inflationary concerns do kick in with regards to services industry in the US economy, then I think you may see a reversal there and rates might start to pop again. But for the moment we're in a downward direction.

Now in regards to that downward direction, we have seen rates dropping recently. Do you think it's all priced in so far or do you think we could see it continue down for a little bit? Assuming there's no big inflation concern that happens?

I think it's more of a recessionary concern. Like I mentioned, China and Europe, those economies have slowed. The US economy is still robust. However, there are some recessionary concerns as it relates to the global economic market. And that's why I think, you know, we might see rates continue to dip a little bit here further than they have already. Now I don't think we'll see the all time lows that we saw when where the Fed had rates at almost zero, but I do think we might see another, you know, precipitous dip in the market here, maybe another quarter or half a point by the end of 2019.

Now, have you seen any change in mortgage starts in your company recently with the rates dropping?

Oh, yeah. I mean, I think across the board in terms of any type of rate decrease, you're going to see a lot of refinance activity. So those folks that had purchased properties, you know, within the last 18 months at a higher rate level, or, you know, particularly of higher loan amounts, primary home residences, you're going to see some refinance activity there. So we've definitely seen an uptick in that. But as it relates to the investment property community, the lower the rates, the better the roi. So we've definitely seen an uptick in applications over the last week or 10 days, not just as a result of Meet the Masters, but also across the board with Our investor community, generally speaking, just jumping into the market more aggressively now with rates lower than they were before.

Referring to Meet the Masters, you were on a lender panel there. Was there any question that people asked there that you think would be important for people who weren't at Meet the Masters to know the answer to anything that somebody asked that you thought, hey, that's something everybody should know.

Part of the lender panel was very inclusive of a lot of the questions. You know, Maggie and I addressed a lot of the questions that we see. Typically, the one thing I will say with regards to rates is maybe this didn't come up in the panel or the questions, but a lot of folks do wonder whether they should put 20% down or 25% down. So you could put 20% down at five and a half percent, and if you paid one extra point, you can get the rate down to almost a 25% down rate, you know, so by putting about 21% down, you can get a rate similar to the 25% down and you keep that other 4% for your next purchase, you know, so it's a way to still build your real estate portfolio, but using the money a little bit smarter, I suppose, to keep growing your portfolio and not using all of Your equity or 25% of your equity on one particular property. So I think that's a good strategy that people can employ. That one point that they pay extra is tax deductible. Folks don't realize that, that when they file their returns again next year, they will be able to get a tax deduction based on that extra 1% that they pay to buy down the interest rate.

One fact that you and Maggie showed that we haven't discussed here on the mortgage update is the reserves that are required for your 10 Fannie and Freddie loans. Can you go over the reserves people need to have as their number of properties increase?

The reserve requirement is always a very big question as well as you grow your portfolio. And Fannie and Freddie have different reserve requirements, and it also depends on how many properties you have already got financed. So, for example, Fannie Mae, if you've got one to four properties financed, you need 2% of the outstanding loan balance of each investment property in reserve. The aggregated loan balances for each of those first four properties, you just need 2% of reserves. You've got five or six properties financed. You then need 4% of the aggregate loan balances. And then if you've got anywhere between seven and 10 properties financed, you need 6% of those aggregate loan balances. So for example, if you owe a million dollars in mortgage debt or investment property debt, you would need to have $60,000 in reserves if you were in that 7 to 10 finance home category. Now, Freddie Mac is a little bit different. Freddie Mac looks at your one month of reserves is one month of mortgage payment, your principal and interest, taxes and insurance on the property. And for Freddie Mac, it's like the first six homes that are financed, you need to have six months reserves of each of the properties. So six months of each payment on each property would need to be in reserves. And then for seven through ten, Sobriety Mac just recently increased that to eight months of reserves for each of the investment properties that you own or have financed. Now, the reserve requirements don't necessarily need to be liquid. That's another question we get. The reserves can come from a savings account, such as a Retirement Savings Account, 401k IRA can come from a stock account, does not need to be liquidated, or any other asset that you may have in terms of savings, like cash savings, stocks, bonds, retirement funds. So we do not need to liquidate those funds to have them in reserves, but we just need to show that you have some kind of savings there.

All right, well, Joe, thank you very much for your time.

Very welcome. Thank you.

Hey, Adam, thanks for that. That's great that you do that every month. And I know you're going to be doing some more lightning round local market profiles coming up and we're looking forward to that because we had some new markets represented at Meet the Masters and new local market specialists. Very excited about working with these folks. Also, one thing I wanted to say, one of our speakers at Meet the Masters offered a rather pricey consulting program. Understand that that's exactly what it was, a consulting program kind of a. I don't want to say it's exactly what it was because I don't know exactly what it was. But I just want you to know that in order to set up a plan with them and self direct your IRA or other qualified accounts, you can do that for as little as $95. You don't have to enroll in this big coaching and consulting program. Okay? You can set up an account for anywhere between, I think it's $95 and $219 or something like that. So just make sure you ask about that and understand that. Because you know, like everything in life don't buy more than you need. You can always buy the other thing later. Okay, you can always buy the other thing later and you can always upgrade and get into the bigger plan later. So just understand that speaking of things to spend your money on, I am really excited about our upcoming, well, many months away cruise to Cuba. The Venture Alliance Mastermind Cruise to Cuba. Venture alliance enrollment is closed until the fall now. We open it now twice a year because it's just too hard to keep it open all year long. So it's open twice a year. But we do have the Venture alliance cruise coming up in the fall. You can go see that@jason hartman.com Cruise check that out. Should be a really fun Mastermind time. And talk to us about joining the Venture alliance later. Okay.

I think it is important in that to note that membership is closed but you can still buy a one time.

Yes, that's what I mean to say. And for example, thank you for that. Our event in Savannah, Georgia coming up in May, same thing goes there. We have a weekend retreat, a Venture alliance retreat. You can come as a guest on a one time thing, but the memberships are only twice a year. Okay. So thanks for clearing that up. Adam. Let's adjourn for today and we'll talk to everybody tomorrow.

Have a good one, everybody.

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