1164: Disincentivizing Home Ownership & History of the Future, Oculus, Facebook & the Revolution That Swept Virtual Reality by Blake Harris

Working with the local market specialist went really well. I feel like I was able to get the type of property that I wanted and happy with the price and the rehab job and the tenants have gone well.

Welcome to the Creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You're about to learn a new slant on investing, some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world's most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine, self made multimillionaire who's actually been there and done it. He's a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who's owned properties in 11 states, had hundreds of tenants and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason's footsteps on the road to your financial Independence Day. You, you really can do it. And now here's your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.

Welcome listeners from around the world. This is episode 1164. 1164. Thank you so much for joining us today. I've got our in house economist Thomas here with us and we are going to talk about how the government has disincentivized homeownership. Yes, disincentivizing homeownership. It used to incentivize it much more than it is nowadays and this bodes well for you investors. So congratulations because when you disincentivize something, you create its opposite. You create more renters. So that's what we'll talk about in the intro portion before we get to our guest today. Thomas, welcome back. How you doing?

Yeah, good to be with you.

Good to have you on. So hey Thomas, I haven't talked to you since you were at Meet the Masters and I, I didn't see much of you there but I, I saw you standing in the back the room watching. This is now what your second event with us, right? You went to Prophets in Paradise in Hawaii. What did you think? How was the event for you?

Oh, I think the best part was watching you dance to Rod Stewart.

Yeah, that was pretty good. You know, I do like to cut a rug a little bit, I will be the first to admit that. And a few people said to me that that was the most fun they had in years. One guy said to me it was the most fun he had in a dec. And I will tell you it was the most fun I had since last year's Meet the masters just about 14 months ago when we had the Journey tribute band. And I gotta tell you, you know tribute bands, some of Them are great because they're actually better than the real artists sometimes. Here's my theory on that. A tribute band, their whole goal is to sound like the album, to sound like the song. We all know, love and recognize all those songs of whatever the artist is, the original band, they want to improvise and they want to make it different and they want you to hear their new stuff that you don't even know. And you know, like, I remember years ago I went to a Dave Matthews concert and honestly, it was just not good. I don't think too many people were getting into it, you know, and at the time I liked the band, I thought they had some good songs and you know, they were doing all this stuff that it just wasn't recognizable to the audience. You know, they wanted to do all their creativity. And it's like, to me, that's like experimenting on your audience. You ought to give your audience your good stuff. So I don't know, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong, but. But yeah, I do like to cut a rug. And that was a lot of fun, I gotta say. That was a lot of fun.

I gotta tell you, the Meet the Masters event and the Prophets in Paradise, they're packed full of information. I didn't know you cover a lot of areas from technology, the I am Flash founder talking about his views, you know, to the tax value of homeownership, to self directed IRAs, to talking to experts on markets around the country. You know, it's amazing all the stuff that gets packed into the. Into the event.

Yeah, it really is cool to bring all those people together. I will say though, that the thing that I think is very important is that you go to all of our events listeners. Because at Meet the Masters, I really talk very little. And that is one of the complaints we've had a couple of times over the years. Jason talked more and hey, I'm flattered. Okay, But Meet the Masters isn't that event. That's where we get lots of speakers and lots of people together. The other events like Creating wealth and jhu, Jason Hartman University, those are where it's. It's really just me presenting and I'll have a couple other speakers that I'll just present for a very short time. You really need to get the whole spectrum of these events and make sure that, you know, over the course of the year you can always do this. And those two events, JHU and Creating wealth, they don't change very much. They change a bit, but not as much. But Meet the Masters and Prophets in Paradise. Completely different events every single time. Of course, Venture alliance retreats and Adventure alliance trips are completely different every time too. So just to let people know about, about the different things, but you were networking a lot with the local market specialist at the event and I, I know you and you have a little investment club. You're interested in some of our Ohio properties, it looks like, right?

Yeah, we want to invest in some more income producing properties outside of the state of Utah. So yeah, we want to go to Ohio and Pennsylvania.

And yeah, Pennsylvania was a new market that we presented there at Meet the Masters. So we're excited about that one. We have looked to get into that for quite a few years, but we were just not satisfied with any of the teams we were finding. And we think we've got a really good team now, so that's good. Well, hey, today, Thomas, you wanted to talk about the subject of disincentivizing homeownership. And I think this is really cool. Now the typical real estate thinker will think, oh, this is bad news. Right? You know, this is terrible. The government is taking away incentives for people to buy real estate. Well, that's fine with me. This only applies to homeowners, not to investors. And the fewer homeowners who have these artificial incentives to buy a house in which to live, which I've told you for years is just not that good a deal, the more it will create additional rental demand and the more renters there will be in the marketplace creating upward pressure on rents, which is, hey, it's great for everybody listening. Tell us a little bit about this if you would, and give us the comparison between prior to federal tax reform last year and then, you know now what it's like under the new reform.

Yeah, so I'll start in the 70s. Basically, the tax value of owning a median priced home was around 2000 bucks in the 70s and then it bumped up to around 6, $7000 in the 80s and it stayed around there. It depends on what mortgage rates did over the period. But in general, on average, the tax value of owning a home was around 6,000 bucks. And the way I get to that is I'm taking the difference between mortgage interest paid and what the standard deduction was. So essentially say a family earning 70,000 and paying 14,000 in mortgage interest, their incentive was to itemize their deductions and take their mortgage interest off of their taxes. And with federal tax reform, it basically doubled the standard deduction for a typical filer from around 13,000 to 24,000 so that family that was making 70,000 and paying 14,000 in interest, now there's no incentive for them to pay interest because they'll just take the standard deduction of 24,000. So essentially they, you know, whether it makes a difference on the margin for moderate income families, it's still yet to be seen.

It doesn't make a difference for everybody. But this is not the rich we're talking about here. Okay. With the new tax reform. And I say new, you know, it's a little over a year old now. Right. But it's new enough in the tax world. We saw the limit to the salt, what's known as salt, the acronym State and local taxes. We saw the limit to those deductions. And with that, that really was a slam on, you know, wealthier people. Not super wealthy necessarily, they don't care too much. But on wealthier people, it disincentivized living in expensive areas, California, New York, etc. That hurt them. Now this, what you're talking about though, is how it affects just someone making 70 grand. Right. That's not a ton of money. In today's world, that effect is pretty significant, isn't it?

Yeah. If before the federal tax reform you had say a $6,000 incentive to pay mortgage interest, to now a minus $9,000 incentive for paying mortgage interest, then you know, there's a $15,000 flip per year.

So this is, it depends on whether you're doing the long form or the short form on your taxes, right?

Yeah. So this is individuals that itemize their taxes. So when you, when you fill out your tax form, you can either take the standard deduction, which was going to be 13,000 for a family filing, married filing, joint to, it jumped up to 24,000. So that $9,000 difference. There are families in there that, you know, were paying mortgage interest and they were paying more than 13,000 in mortgage interest to where it was advantageous for them to itemize their mortgage interest and take, basically take their mortgage interest off their taxes. Now that incentive isn't there.

So just to run through the details of that, if they're paying mortgage interest of $14,000 per year, they give $7,000 away to charity. They pay property taxes of $2,000 for a total of $23,000. Their standard deduction is $13,000. And the tax value of mortgage interest, charity, property taxes is, is $10,000. And that was before tax reform with the same exact scenario. Now their deduction, same exact numbers above, right now their deduction is negative $1,000 in other words, they used to deduct $10,000 and now they basically are losing 11,000 in deductions.

Right?

Yeah. So basically they just take the standard deduction. I'm not saying that federal tax reform increase the tax burden on, you know, a family making 70,000 for most tax filers, it's around 80% will see, you know, a tax savings of around 15, 20%. So, you know, it was a, it depends on your political perspective.

Right.

But it was the biggest tax reform in 30 years.

And overall it's good. But it definitely slammed the people in the high cost of living areas. So when I had Meredith Whitney on a few years back and she talked about the state of the states, you know, this is yet another incentive to migrate to places with lower property taxes and lower housing costs. And boy, a lot of people have been doing that, yours truly included. So feels very good to live in a no income tax state like I do now instead of living in, in the socialist republic of California where it's so expensive. It's just so expensive. And you know, over the course of years since I moved to Arizona in 2011 and then, you know, I tried Nevada, didn't like it. So now I'm in Florida. It's amazing how much more quickly you can grow your wealth when you don't have the burden of the taxes, but also just the higher cost of living in general. I mean, hey, where I live in Florida is not cheap, but it's still cheaper than Newport Beach. Okay. Or where Meet the Masters just was and where I used to live. So yeah, that's good, good stuff. Okay. Hey to we got to get to our guest, but thank you for bringing this up. I just want to remind our listeners, next couple events we've got Venture Alliance Mastermind retreat focused on property tax deed and property tax lien investing in Savannah, Georgia coming up in May. And then our Cuba and Grand Cayman cruise, a week long cruise coming up in November, November 6th. For that, check those out@Jason Hartman.com and let's go to our guest.

It's my pleasure to welcome a returning guest back to the show. And that is Blake J. Harris. He's a New York Times best selling author of Console Wars, Sega, Nintendo and the battle that defined a generation. Now we're not talking about that today. We're talking about his new book, the History of the Future, about Oculus, Facebook and the revolution that swept virtual virtual reality. Interesting that he says swept in past tense. We'll see what he says about that. He's got a New TV series out, published by Legendary Pictures with Seth Rogen, Evan Goldberg and Scott Rudin. An executive producer Sony's feature film adaptation of Console Wars. I think this should be an interesting talk that, you know, the future ain't what it used to be, as they say. Blake, welcome. How are you?

I'm good. I'm busy thinking about the future and you're spot on. It ain't what it used to be. It's changing every day.

Yeah, yeah, that's for sure. As Yogi Berra famously said, it's interesting, as I noted in your intro, that you put in past tense. The revolution that swept virtual reality. I don't even think we've started the revolution yet, have we?

Oh, it's an interesting observation. No one's asked me about that. And it was by design a bit. Obviously, virtual reality and augmented reality headsets are not ubiquitous at all right now, so it would be premature to say that we've succeeded in this revolution. But I do think that there was such an energy and fervor around Oculus, their Kickstarter in 2012, and the excitement around gaming and virtual reality that it did feel like a revolution that has already happened and of course set a lot of things into motion that hopefully will be leading to bearing fruits over the next few years. But to me, it did feel like there was a special time for virtual reality between 2012 and 2016 that has come to an end. Not the end of virtual reality, but that phase of the revolution did feel like it was a self contained story.

So, Blake, one of the possibly most amazing things is how virtual reality, Oculus Rift, Facebook, it will change the way we socialize, it will change the way we date, it will change the way we meet people, the way we have business meetings.

Wow.

It's hugely significant, isn't it?

Absolutely. I mean, I mentioned that the reason I felt that virtual reality revolution from 2012 to 2016 was sort of this self contained thing was because it really was very gaming oriented. Oculus was founded in 2012 and their tagline, their mission was actually to help people step into the game. And then in 2014, Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook acquired Oculus for $3 billion. And it was for all of the reasons that you're describing. The future of education, the future of training, the future of productivity, the future of dating. And it really does have the potential to do all of those things in ways that some ways that we can imagine, some ways that we cannot. But really it comes down to this idea that was such a significant part of what the guys at Oculus were building towards, which was presence. To feel like you are actually somewhere else when really where physically you're in the same place wearing a headset. And the potential of that. I think one of the simplest ways to put it for people who haven't tried a headset is to just think maybe a virtual reality as like the next iteration from phone calls to Skype to virtual reality interactions, where this conversation could be happening virtually in a few years and we'll actually feel like we're together in this other space.

Yeah, it's really weird to think of it. And you know, we left out one huge industry that used to be the biggest industry online before social media. And that's. I say it, but the adult industry. Right. And yes. And they always, from what I understand, are kind of the leaders in pushing these technologies because the more, I guess, rich media. Right. You know that it's.

Right.

And virtual reality is certainly another step toward the richness, if you will, of the media. Right. It's pretty fascinating. You know, it'll also impact, and I didn't say it. We have so many real estate investors listening, but the way we look at price properties. Peter Diamandis, and I think he's wrong about this, but you know, it's interesting. I mean, it'll have an impact, there's no question. I just don't think it'll be a all or nothing impact. Like the way he was sort of couching it. He was talking about how realtors won't have a job anymore, you know, because you don't need to go show a house. You can just show it through virtual reality. You know, you have the camera, people go through the house once with whatever virtual gear they need, and then you could just tour it yourself from any computer or mobile device. Right.

I mean, conceptually, yes. And I do think that, as we already know, virtual reality is being used by architecture firms for building houses or building properties and showing properties, and also by some real estate agents. But I don't necessarily see it as such a doom and gloom scenario, because I feel like you could say the same about houses today. You know, the house exists, someone could go to it. But we are humans and it is nice to have a guide. It is nice to have an expert by our side, someone who can help us see the vision further and answer questions. So I do imagine that will probably be a bigger part of real estate and it'll change the way that we interface with real estate agents and brokers and with these properties.

Sure, sure. So what do we have now? You know, I'm usually a pretty early adopter with technology. I. I probably spend too much money that I shouldn't, but I don't have a virtual reality headset. I haven't even really looked at them much. What does the consumer have available to them now, not only in the hardware and, you know, what's the price of it and what's the right thing to buy or not buy, but, you know, in terms of what they can actually use it for, what, you know, what videos are available or what. What can you do with it?

It's a great question, and it's particularly interesting because I spent four years working on this book. So I really started working on it in 2015, 2016. This was shortly after Facebook's big acquisition of Oculus. And around that time, during the course of my research, I obtained thousands of internal documents and emails. And Mark Zuckerberg had mentioned that he envisioned that five years from now, there would be, you know, 50 to 100 million of these headsets out there being used. And it is almost literally five years from that acquisition, and we have nowhere.

Near didn't quite happen. Yeah, but a lot of these prognosticators, they're not wrong. They're just early, you know. Right.

That's a good way to put it. But in terms of what we do have, we do have 7 million virtual reality headsets out there. And to use those, though, I think 4 million of them are being used connected to a PC and 3 million are being used connected to PlayStation 4. So a long way of saying that all 7 million of those are tethered to a computer or a game console. And so I think the future of virtual reality, the one that is going to make you buy a headset, or more interested in buying one, or my mom or my brother, is an untethered standalone experience which hopefully could be affordable for a few hundred dollars. And Oculus and Facebook are putting out headset like that, called the Oculus Quest, in a couple of months. It's going to be the first affordable headset that does that. And as with so many things over the course of my four years working on this, this is the thing that they think is going to finally make VR take off. It remains to be seen. I think it's going to be a slow burn either way, but at least it moves us in that right direction where it would be affordable and accessible to you.

Yeah, you talk about affordability, and I mean, I remember literally the last time I looked up Oculus Rift headset and it was about $650. And now I'm looking at it right now, this moment. It's $349. It's probably better than that other version, too, I'm guessing. But what's the kind of price point that you consider affordable? What are they saying, what the Quest will cost?

The Quest is going to cost $400, which is still expensive. Of course, that's still expensive. But I think that we all sort of understand that this is generation One, and Facebook wants this to be in our hands. You know, they are a software company more than a hardware company, so their goal is to get it out there and to drive the price down. But I think that one of the things that's interesting is that, to me, this story is about virtual reality. But what interested me as a writer was always sort of this American dream starting a business story that is universal in that respect. When Oculus first came onto the scene in 2012 with a headset invented by founder Palmer Luckey, the major proposition was that this was a $300 headset. And then you flash forward a few years to when they actually launched it, and it was $600. I'm sure that anyone who's run a business knows that stuff like that happens, that you keep making compromises or keep upgrading. But I do think that at some point, you maybe sort of lose sight of your original mission, and that is part of what happened with Oculus, and maybe why it is not as ubiquitous as we would want today. But I think that over the next few years, it will come down to a price point of about $200, which is. You know, that's still a lot of money, but it's probably something we can afford, right? Yeah.

Yeah. What else is out there? I mean, is the Facebook Oculus cartel? And I'm calling it a cartel because I'm not a Facebook fan. I mean, I use it all the time, but I have my gripes about the way it's being run, for sure. And all of these big tech platforms scare the heck out of me in many ways. But anyway, that's good.

They should.

Yeah.

I went into this book with no particular gripe against them or strong opinion, but I definitely left very concerned about Facebook and the future of these big tech companies. So I'm glad to hear that you're suspicious.

Oh, I'm. I'm. I'm extremely suspicious. I think they are way too big and powerful, and they're abusing us in so many ways, but that's a whole Nother discussion for another day. Who else is there? Who's standing in line like Oculus is clearly going to be the leader, at least, you know, initially. Who's the second place?

So second place right now is htc. They have a partnership with the game company Valve, which is best known for Steam. And you know, Steams hundreds of millions of PC gamer, user, distribution, network. They have actually been very competitive with Oculus and have for the most part, been a market leader due to a lot of missteps and mistakes by Oculus and Facebook over the years. But to your point, you know, Facebook has 2 billion users, they have a big war chest of money, and they do seem poised to lead, you know, the next phase of the VR revolution if it were to come to pass. And then you have companies like Apple and like Microsoft and Google as well, that have really put more of their efforts towards augmented reality, which is, you know, more about the real world experience with virtual and computer generated objects overlaid on top of reality.

Right.

And it's kind of a good position for them to be in. You know, we think of Apple as the pioneers of the smartphone industry and they certainly were to a degree. But it helped them that BlackBerry came first and took a lot of the friction points away for them so that they can come in. And I think that we're probably poised for something like that here with virtual reality.

Yeah, very good point. Kind of jump to the next section, but I do want to go back for a moment and ask you about what can a consumer really do with it nowadays? What can they use it for?

The primary function is gaming. And it's interesting earlier that you mentioned the adult content industry and pornography, because during my years of working on this book, there was always this talk of finding the killer app. What is going to make you or me or anyone out there buy a $400 or $200 VR headset? And people have always talked about it in terms of some game or even some sort of social media platform. But to your point, historically with computing platforms, pornography has been one of those big killer apps. And so it's interesting, especially as we touch on that third rail topic of big tech and the impact they have on our society that Facebook is so averse to adult content appearing or being used on these VR headsets. They make it as difficult as possible, which I think is hurting this, it's.

Probably hurting innovation and sales. But I'll say that I'm happy to hear Facebook's doing at least one sort of ethical thing, depending on where you come down on this.

You're totally right. And it's like, I don't think they seem to have a conscience censorship there, but it sort of just goes to speak to Facebook really wants to curate this platform. I think that with PCs, for all the good and the bad that computers have brought us over the past 40 years, it is known to be very open where you can pretty much do anything and have any sort of content out there. And again, there's good and bad to that. But, you know, I think the adult content in VR is already an area where we're seeing Facebook exercise their vision to cultivate this ecosystem.

You know, it seems like the sort of second place big thing that really would be right after gaming would be social media. And not just social media, but another form of social media, which would be the dating sites. Because, wow, if people could meet and make like virtual reality phone calls, if you will, that would just be incredible. It's bad enough that nobody goes out anymore and everybody's sitting in front of their screen at home and cocooning. You know, this is interesting because it's what the futurist Faith Popcorn predicted way back in the 90s. She called it cocooning, where people would just stay at home. And her impetus for that was literally this big technology. You ready? Don't freak out when I tell you about the technology that she built that cocooning theory around home theater systems and big screen TVs. Now, you know, those are totally commonplace, but they were really coming up. Then she said, you know, you won't need to go to the movies anymore. Right, right. But it became a lot more than that. But it seems like really the social media and, you know, the dating platforms would be huge also. I could see a huge use for job interviews that would be really efficient. A whole bunch of things. You know, looking at houses, looking at cars, any. I mean, there's a million applications, obviously, but. Thoughts?

Yeah, I mean, a good example of how it can be used in a social context is on Monday of this week, I did a book interview. Like a. Basically a campfire fireside chat in a virtual space hosted by a VR evangelist and, you know, 50 people, quote, unquote, attended virtually. And so after the Q and A, I could meet with some of them and talk to them. And so, you know, it has that semblance of being more like a physical event as opposed to just iming someone or text messaging someone. I think that part of the reason people haven't jumped full force into the dating and that sort of thing is because you do have this issue with the uncanny Valley. You know, there is not right now a perfect VR representation avatar of myself or of yourself. It's, you know, it's still going to be a little gawky. So I think until they perfect that, it's probably going to, you know, make people continue to date in the real world or via applications. But the one other thing that you have and that you really pointed on was the social media aspect. And if you recall, you know, a big part of what made social media take off in the early or mid aughts was the sharing of photos and of videos. And so with virtual reality, you have this ability to share photos, 360 degree videos, meaning that you put a camera in the center of a room and like, let's say it's a child's birthday party and grandma can't be there. You can literally just record a full panorama. And grandma could either be there in the moment or she can relive the birthday party. You know, for anyone who's tried One of those 360 experiences, it's kind of incredible because it's like walking through someone else's memory. Like you can walk and visit other parts of this experience that you didn't even go to in the first place.

It's pretty amazing. You know, there's going to be, There will be a new thing. Well, we already have it to an extent, and I don't even know the name, but there's a buzzword for it, I can't remember. But there will be virtual reality tourism that will happen, you know.

Right.

What about the other senses? I mean, virtual reality plays on, you know, the vast majority is your vision. It plays on your equilibrium, though, which I call the sixth sense. You know, they talk about a sixth sense. We already have one. We already know about it. It's your equilibrium.

Right, good point.

But you know, you can. There are also a lot of sensors as far as body movement and touch and, you know, what about the other senses?

So we're still very early in that. I mean, I think smell is one that is discussed a lot. There's articles about it because it's perhaps the most fascinating. How do you create a seemingly infinite palette?

It's the most difficult. Smell is the most difficult one to recreate. Yeah.

So, you know, I've seen experiments of trying to take the most common smells and recreate them. And that's going to be way into the future. But perhaps a workaround for that is where it gets into scary or maybe empowering territory where you actually Tap into the neural circuit. So maybe you're not actually smelling pizza, but you're triggering something in the brain that fires the same receptors that you would normally have. When you smell pizza and you feel like you're smelling pizza, that's sort of more like a matrix type discussion, but that is probably going to take the longest. Like you said, smells is the hardest sense to recreate. Touch is probably going to be where we're focused for now. Getting our hands into virtual reality was a big win and big important thing early on.

Tell us how that works. Give us a hint as to how the touch and the motion and stuff works a little bit.

Sure. So whenever I would talk to game developers or content developers, they would always say the first thing you do is in VR is you look down for your hands. And early on, there was no hands. It was a game controller. So bringing your hands into the experience with Oculus touch controllers or the wands from the HTC Vive at least gives you the feeling that your hands are there. The quest is going to be doing finger tracking, so, you know, you should be able to move all your digits and have full dexterity. But then there's also the actual sense of touch. And so that's going to probably be a matter of haptic feedback. There's some different options. We see some of that with video games today, but that's really the areas that these companies are exploring is to try to bring more haptics into VR.

Yeah, it's really interesting. Well, Blake, we got to wrap it up, but is there anything you want to share on, like the financial impact to the economy or these companies or. I don't know, you just thought I'd throw it out there.

One thing that I think about a lot as I walk outside, and I'm sorry if it's a little bit noisy for the listeners, is, you know, I look at all these stores or places where there used to be stores, and I do wonder what is going to be there in the future when so much of this can be done virtually? I mean, we've already seen this tech tie shift in retail due to Amazon and the Internet now.

Retail apocalypse.

Yeah, exactly. And so what happens when you take that a step further? What happens when you and I decide to go out on a date or a double date, and we can do that virtually instead of going to a Starbucks? What is going to need to exist in the meat and potatoes real world? Hopefully people smarter than me are thinking of good options and ways that we can still interact physically. But it does make me wonder about that. And I guess from a financial standpoint, that's probably a win. You know, we go to Amazon now and I pick out a jacket and then it's delivered to me. But what if I could just go in there now and go into an Amazon virtual dressing room and try it on?

Yeah.

And maybe it's a virtual jacket or maybe it's a real jacket, and that's really where the future of retail is going to be headed.

Or maybe you'll just order it on a 3D printer from your home, you know. Exactly. Yeah.

There's.

There's old. It's a. It's an amazing time to be alive. And, you know, with this, it really speaks to the quote that I often repeat. It's. It's my own quote. It just says, geography is less meaningful than it's ever been in human history. Geography is less meaningful than it's ever been in human history. It's still meaningful, but less than ever. And I think that's going to be more. So, yeah. Give out your website, of course, you can find the book in all the usual places.

And I'm on BlakeJ. Harris.com you can see interviews about the making of the book and some excerpts on there. Thanks so much for having me on, Jason. This is great.

Hey, Blake. It was a pleasure. Take care of Care.

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