1185: Rising Middle Class Impact on Real Estate & Data Science for Real Estate with Anna Myers

My name is Gwen and we've been investing. Well, we bought our first property in 2013, but we've been listening to Jason's podcast since 2011. Well, after the market crashed in 2008, we needed to do something different. And so we started listening to different podcasts about real estate and it just kind of went from there.

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Welcome to episode 1185. 1185. Thank you for joining me. I am still here in Shanghai, China, and wow. Spent the day yesterday looking around this amazing city. I am of about 24 million people. It is giant. This is a giant, giant place. Wow. What were the impressions from yesterday and what do they have to do with overall economics, real estate investing and the whole game that we're in in terms of accumulating assets, Assets that are needed globally. And we look at the rising middle class in China and in other places around the world, but China is the biggest just because of their sheer numbers, the massive population of the Chinese people. Really something else. Carmen, some impressions from yesterday before we get to our guest today.

Well, we can add that to the 24 million city that we're in right now. There's actually a national holiday going on.

Yeah. So it's their, it's their version of Labor Day, Right.

I think. So they, you know, work a couple of weekends before these. So they're taking now three days off.

So.

So this city is packed. There's no space for one more person.

Wow.

I mean, 24 million wasn't enough. Now we have a few extra million visiting.

Yeah. It's just amazing. I mean, yesterday when we were out, remember when we tried to get into that garden, what was that garden called, that in that area where we got off the tour bus and we took one of these sort of hop on, hop off. You know, you've seen these in every city. These Cheap little tours. But they're, they're kind of really convenient. You know, it's nothing high end, but you're on the double decker bus and so the view is good. And the videos that we took of just these masses of people just in normal life, it's just normal. These are just walking down city streets and in cafes and then going into that garden yesterday, that was just incredible. Now, one thing also that I want to make sure we mentioned is the Chinese surveillance state. Remember how I was taking pictures of all the cameras, the military people and interestingly, no guns on any of these people. Right.

Yeah. Well, remember we saw the trucks that they had the military in the back.

Oh yeah. They had all these soldiers. The soldiers were so quaffed, you know, they were great posture and they had their big hats on and their sort of dress uniforms.

Yeah. And while we're walking on that landmark, which it wasn't really walking, it's just moving at the rhythm of the mass.

It's like waves of people.

Right. And then the military is there acting as a human wall. All they're doing is just guiding this mass amount of people.

TRAPP TRAFFIC China does seem very concerned about terrorism and it's definitely kind of a police state vibe. There are cameras everywhere and all sorts of other more sophisticated equipment than just cameras. I assume that those were license plate readers and maybe even temperature readers. I mean, certainly at all the customs checkpoints that we've come in and out of. You know, they have the infrared cameras that are scanning your temperature to see if you have a fever. And just a lot of surveillance loudspeakers built in to the camera post. And, and you know, I've always heard and read that London was the most cameraed and surveilled city in the world. I don't know about that. Shanghai has cameras just everywhere. I mean all over China it's that way, but here especially. So I think.

Yeah, yeah. One interesting comment you made yesterday, even with the amount of people that we had around us, which tends to feel sometimes not very safe if you are.

I know what you're going to say about safety, but just a kind of a tangent to that. If you really like your personal space, don't come to China because you know, you're just being pushed and shoved all the time.

Not during the holiday. Yeah, but actually, you know, it did not feel unsafe. What do you think? I mean, I thought, I think you mentioned something about that yesterday.

Right. Yeah, definitely. You know, in a country where you have a very strict set of laws, I Mean, China is in theory a communist country. It's sort of a hybrid, obviously, and we all know that, we've talked about it on many prior episodes. I think the penalties for crimes are pretty darn severe. So there were signs all over throughout the trip, you know, watch your belongings and so forth and things. But I do not feel the least bit threatened here in an American city or, or many other cities around the world. And you know, of course this is. I've been to 83 countries now. I feel much less safe than I do here in a place like this. If you're a outspoken government critic, you probably have a reason to feel unsafe. But otherwise, I think as a normal citizen, if you're going with the flow, I don't feel threatened at all. I don't feel like I'm going to get jumped or mugged or anything. Maybe some pickpockets. There were a lot of signs about that we've seen, but even that, I don't know, you know, that sneaks up on you. So didn't feel threatening to me. What about you?

Yeah, I feel the same. I mean, I've been here many times, sometimes by myself, and I honestly don't.

I feel safe.

I think, you know, you can be on the streets day or night and I mean, using some common sense as normal, but it's just a safe place.

Yeah, yeah, it feels very safe. Now, the other impression that I've had throughout the trip, but here, once again, I mean, we had this impression in Guangzhou and you've been here several times. It's my first time. But of course, Hong Kong, South Korea, same thing. And we will get to that Kyle Bass video probably next week. But the wealth, the, the rising middle class, the looming asset shortage, which I talked about, about the Jeremy Siegel article from years ago, I mean, the number of high end stores and the duplication of these high end stores, you know, there's another Gucci store, there's another Tiffany's, and you know, there's, there's one in the airport. There's all kinds of high end shopping malls, not just one or two, you know, in Orange County, California, where I spent most of my adult life, you know, you'd go to Fashion island in Newport, where our Meet the Masters conference was very high end area, high end shopping. You go to the famous South Coast Plaza not far from Fashion island in Costa Mesa, and very high end shopping, of course, but here, it's just everywhere. There are so many of these, Rolex, Gucci, Louis Vuitton, you know, Burberry, Every, you know, every high end store you can think of, right?

Yeah. This is what I find interesting. Not only the amount of stores that they have here, which you're right, I mean, every two blocks you could find a designer store. And here's what's interesting, there's actually people buying inside the stores and they're crowded.

They are crowded.

Stores aren't that actually there's more customers.

Than employees, which is kind of rare. You know, when you go into these high end stores and other, other cities, I mean, there's not many people in them. You know, there's sort of these super high end boutique type stores. But, but here people have money and they are spending it. Of course, it's a banana republic for sure. I mean, you know, it's not like everybody's rich, but it's amazing. I mean, over 300 million people have been lifted out of poverty. And what's amazing to think of is that many of these people, if they are over 30 years old, a lot of them probably grew up in rural China and came to the city and basically lived on a farm and lived in poverty. And now they're in the big city and their life has just totally changed. I mean, unfortunately not enough people speak English, or at least good enough English for me to interview them in any real way. But I bet you there are just masses of people who in one generation have seen their life radically changed.

Yeah, I remember talking to some of the tour guys that I, you know, had in the past and it was usually the same story. They were born in a town close by and at some point they just have to move to the city because the small towns where they're born, which small here is a relative term.

Right, good point.

But you know, there's no jobs, they probably can't work in the farm. So if they want any, you know, more advanced job, they have to come to the cities.

Yeah, that's true. So what does all this mean to real estate investors? Well, there's the old saying that all real estate is local. And that's certainly true. But the key to understand is that all real estate and what I mean is improved real estate. Of course, real estate with buildings on it, houses, apartment buildings, whatever kind of improvement is on that piece of land. All real estate requires the same ingredients. The same ingredients, the same set of commodities build all of this stuff. Lumber, concrete, petroleum products, copper wire, glass, steel, labor, energy. Right. All of these ingredients are common throughout the world. So when there's a building boom in Shanghai, China, that means the cost of Construction materials in Memphis, Tennessee. There's upward pressure on them. Right. So this is the point to remember, the boom doesn't need to be in the neighborhood in which you're buying for it to positively affect your real estate prices. Because it's just about commodities. And the commodities are not indexed to any one currency. Of course, the dollar is the reserve currency of the world, but it doesn't matter because there are things that have intrinsic value. Everybody needs them. And when you see these masses, masses of people, I mean, if, if you don't like being around too many people, do not come to China. It is just crazy. The swaths, I just don't even know how to describe it. It was when we were on the bus yesterday, it was like unfathomable for me. I mean I, you know, I've seen the movies, but you know, when you're there in person, it's just so many people. I felt like that in India in a few places too, but here even more so. It's more pronounced because the population and the population density is truly amazing. All of these people are creating wealth. The middle class is rising around the world and that means more and more consumption of all these raw materials that I mentioned, but also more and more consumption of assets that investors are looking for. Investors are looking for these assets. So you want to, in your strategy as an income property investor, own and control as much of this asset pie as possible. Because the rising middle class around the world wants to invest in American real estate. Again. The US has always been considered the brinks truck of the world, the safest place to invest, where money flees to safety. Because there's very little political risk in the US and it's obviously a very vibrant economy. So that's the lesson. Let's go to our guest today. We're going to talk about data driven real estate investing and I think you'll find this to be an interesting interview, so let's jump to that.

It's my pleasure to welcome Anna Myers. She is an expert in data driven real estate investing. She's vice president of growcapitis. She teaches underwriting for Multifamily U or Multifamily University and co host a real estate investor meetup in the San Francisco Bay Area area. Anna, welcome. How are you?

I'm doing great. Thank you so much for having me on the show.

Good to have you on data driven real estate investing. That is a, that is a great catchphrase. I like it. Wouldn't every investor at least hopefully say that they are data driven and I guess the alternative, Anna, is off the cuff or emotional. What do you mean when you say that?

I mean getting down to the nitty gritty. So I, I thought when I first started investing, so my background's in technology, so I've always been a person that was very thought myself as an being very data driven and I would go into markets, but honestly, I didn't quite know what I was looking for. So I had these massive spreadsheets that were doing all kinds of different things. But what I've learned is that we're really looking for several key ingredients. And so some of the key ingredients that we're looking for, I focus now on multifamily, but I think this also translates to single family investors. We're looking for tenants. So what do your tenants need? First of all, they need jobs. So we're looking at for markets that have much higher than the national average for job growth. And then the national average is, I believe, 1.6% right now. So I'm looking at markets that are 2%, 3%, 4% for job growth because that's key for our tenants to have good jobs. Within those jobs, though, I have to say we're looking at markets that have a diversity of jobs. So you do have to dig in and say, great, you've got this job growth in this market, that's 4%. But what's behind that? Is it just a single company that came to town and suddenly there's this huge surge in jobs? Well, that's not really good because what if that company leaves? That's not good for us as investors. So you do have to go and look underneath those numbers. We also like to see a diversity of types of industries. So you don't want to be, you know, maybe you have seven different companies in town, but if they're overly saturated in one overall industry type, again, that might not be good for you as an investor. If it's an industry that could get hit with a market cycle that's upcoming, sure. So we like to see lots of diversity in the types of industries that are represented in that jobs.

Sure.

The other thing we look at is population growth. We want to see cities, metros that have a strong population growth over time. So, for example, if we're looking at 20 years, you can easily do this. For example, if you go to Google and you Google population growth, you can see the population growth for whatever city you Google. You know, population growth, Columbus, Ohio, population growth, Jacksonville, Florida. And you can see the trend. And it's really important for us to know that trend because we want to invest in places where people are moving to, not people are moving away from.

Right? So Anna, before you go on and please remember your place so we can talk about the rest of the sort of major data points you like. But it's always made me wonder, I mean, with what you just said, especially about path of progress type population growth in migration, does the past equal the future or at some point does that growth change? I mean, you know, certainly it does, right? Every city, you know, I mean, I remember years ago in the 90s when everybody wanted to move to Austin, Texas and by golly they did. And now it's really crowded and frankly I don't think it's a very desirable city anymore. Certainly we all remember in California it used be to, to be the welcome to California now go home bumper stickers, right? So these things do change. It definitely shows if you're looking at past population growth, a city that at least was desirable. Maybe it still is, but I don't know. I'm just asking.

So let's talk about desirability. Are we talking about desirability from again, investment standpoint? Austin is still a great place for jobs. There is still a lot of population moving to Austin. And for those people that did invest in Austin back in those days, they would have pretty pot of money right now.

Hey listen, we were recommending and we sold lots of properties in Austin in 2004, 2005. You know, certainly that was well into the boom. People still did extremely well. Our clients did great.

Yeah, absolutely. So I think that, you know, if jobs and people are moving there and that's a trend, then that is definitely a good place to invest because that's where the people are moving to. They need some place to live. Now we look at 20 year trends and so if you're looking, for example, if you do that Google search, you'll see the trend over time and you can see is it flattening out, is it increasing? What has it been doing in the past 20 years? So we look at a long, long term trend, not just the short term. So we're trying to see over time how is this metro doing. And there could be metros that are, you know, have a significant uptick in the last three years. It's going to be up to the investor to do their due diligence on that research to say I see this uptick happening. Is this something I'm willing to bet on? Is this just a temporary trend or is this because, you know, Apple's moved in there or Amazon or Google, you know, what's going on for this uptick and is this going to be something that's going to stay? Because as investors it's always hard to tell.

You know, when you look at things like the city has a master plan, hopefully they do. And they say, okay, we're going to build X number of homes. They're issuing a lot of permits, you know, and that could be homes or apartments. I'll just say I'll call it housing. And so, you know, you've got a lot of permits being issued, a lot of starts, then a lot of job creation. But you never know if those two things that supply and demand curve will meet or get out of balance. Right. How do you put those two together? I've, I've struggled with that over the years when I research areas.

Well, you know, when you have a lot of new construction and a lot of new jobs coming in, that does also create a lot of other jobs because you've got all that coming, coming. We tend to invest in class B and class C properties and you know, as you have new construction coming in, your class C isn't going to get hit as hard as your class B. So I don't think I quite answered your question. Could you repeat the question though?

Well, just matching the supply and demand curve, right?

Yes.

Of the building permits, the housing starts versus the job creation. I'll take it one step further because of the comment you just made, which is interesting. You know, you obviously create a lot of jobs just by having construction, right?

Yeah, construction and then the other, the people that are moving in. So construction is only temporary. We agree on that. So those, those jobs are temporary. But if you have people that are moving into those places and the jobs moving in for every job that's created, non construction, but these other jobs, there's other service jobs that eventually are going to be created around that. And I say that because if the job that's being created that this new construction is going after might be, you know, a white collar office worker that might not be my tenant. Because my tenant is potentially, if I'm investing in class C in that area, my tenant might be the service workers, the jobs that are created that are supporting those white collar jobs. So you know, I look at it that way. Now when we're looking at a city, for example, there's a project in Tucson that we're working on. It is a class C apartment building and there is new construction in the area that's four miles from the property. But when we look at that new construction, that new construction is all student housing. That's right around this, the university. So it's all purpose built student housing. Well, my tenant is not a student. That's not my demographic. So when I'm moving into a market and evaluating a specific property within that market, I'm going to look at the new construction and the upcoming construction. Like you said, it's very important to know what's coming down the pipe. But I'm also going to understand who my tenant base is and how that's going to impact me and my demographic that I'm going after.

Okay, okay. What is the rest of these major data points? You were kind of going through those and you went through several. But there's more.

Yeah, so we've got yes, and we've got job growth and population and then more at a neighborhood. So we're looking at a price to rent ratio. So we're looking at, you know, price to buy a house versus the price of rent. We like to invest in places where the median rent for, you know, is $800 to say, $1,200. So it's kind of that area in there that we find to be the most profitable. Then within the market, we're also looking for the valuation of real estate to not be, you know, we'll call it a bubble. So the value of housing is not way above what I look at as the economic engine that's supporting that housing. So areas that are more like Atlanta or Raleigh, they're more on par. We don't want to see it way under either where you've got the economic engine and price of housing are so low, it's like, oh, that's hard, you know, because people can easily just, instead of renting, they can just buy a house. The cost of housing is so low. So that's valuation. Now, once you're in a market and we look at specific things at the neighborhood level and at the neighborhood level we're looking at unemployment rate, we're looking at median household income, poverty level, those types of things. For example, if the unemployment rate for a specific market, we'll say it's 6% for the city. And you can again, you can google it and find out what is the unemployment rate for that city in the neighborhood, the few blocks around the property that we're looking for. We don't want the unemployment rate to exceed 2 points above that city unemployment rate. So if it's 6%, I don't want the unemployment rate to be over 8%. I have a tolerance for 8% and lower. Once we get beyond that, I'm much less interested in that property. Okay. Poverty level, you know, similarly, you know, we have a certain tolerance. And then outside of that tolerance. So even though you've got a good market, you have to then look at the neighborhood to make sure that the neighborhood is going to work for you the few blocks around there. And it all comes down to delinquency. You have to make sure from a median household income ratio that your tenants can afford to pay you rent 12 months out of the year.

Sure.

If the median household income is too low, we like the number 40,000, by the way, for the median household income. Now, that number could vary a little bit depending on if you're in California market, it might be a little higher. Of course, if you're in a market that has a large student population, you might adjust that a little bit because a lot of students don't work full time because they're in school. But as a general rule, we like the number 40,000. Once you're, you know, way below that, again, you may not get paid rent 12 months out of the year.

Okay, good. Anything else?

Well, you know, we look across markets nationwide. We redo our analysis on a regular basis. We also look at landlord friendliness.

I love it. That's something. That's something we've been saying for 15 years. You know, a lot of people leave that part of the equation out. Just looking at the regulatory environment in any given municipality and state is critically important. Because that doesn't show up in the stats, right?

No, it doesn't.

The court decisions, you win or lose when you have to evict and try to collect. And the economic vacancy loss, you know, not the physical vacancy, but the economic vacancy, it can be huge. And nobody. There's no tracking for that.

Yeah, you are right. Talking about the municipalities, because you can have, you know, the state is one way, but then once you get in the city, you want to understand which areas have. Because sometimes it can be a judge that's sitting in a certain area that is going to favor the tenants more or the judgments are always going to go against the landlord in some way and they're going to tie you up in court. Once you're in a city and you're investing there, you want to understand that. But we tend, you know, we're going for places we like, for example, Florida, Arizona, in case you weren't aware, you may be aware, you've been investing for decades. At this point, it's a 14 day eviction process in Tucson or you want.

To know, Italy in the country.

I would.

Arkansas, the place where tenants can actually be arrested for not paying rent.

So it's like same day.

I don't know the details but PBS or NPR or something did like a segment on it, you can find it online. I'm sure we actually played it on my show before. But that is, I would say has to be the landlord the most landlord friendly. Right?

Yeah, that's pretty extreme.

And you know, to take advantage of that, you don't have to actually try to get your tenant arrested. It's just simply the idea that they know that. Right. You know, will work wonders in getting them, you know, do their part and behave and look, you know, hey, society collapses when people don't uphold their contracts. People have to uphold their contracts. It's just if you want to have civilization, you got to have people upholding contracts or it just all collapses, you know.

That's right. I believe that when the rules are in place, you know, like in Tucson where you've got the 14 day, or in Arkansas, the people that understand there's no leg up that they're going to be getting. So then it's up to the tenants and the property managers to work together. Together. If a tenant is having a hard time, certain things can be worked out potentially. But it's a big difference from what we call professional tenants that are in sub markets that know that they can live for 9 months scot free by just taking advantage of the rules in place there.

That would be the socialist republics of California and New York and Chicago, by the way. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So those are the places we don't invest. We don't have any properties. Well, we do have a graduate student housing in Buffalo, New York that's currently being built, but that's kind of a different beast all by itself. But we don't invest in California, we don't invest in Chicago.

Yeah, no, I'm, I'm definitely not a fan of California. Do you want to make a kind of a disclaimer to people listening and listen, I agree with you completely. I just want to make a caveat to that though.

Sure.

For example, I don't like condos very much. Right. But anything if the deal is good enough and all the other stars align, it still could be worth doing. So I never want to say never because there are mitigating factors that sometimes can compensate you for the hassle of landlord unfriendliness or whatever. So it's all possibility anyway. Go Ahead.

Yeah. So, of course, a lot of people are looking at job growth and population growth. This is something that a lot of people have caught onto. So we spend time trying to look at nuances between. So our list of markets that we're looking at on a quarterly basis is probably about 80 markets. And we're really kind of digging into the numbers underneath there because we're trying to find our potential spots where not everybody's investing. And we also don't go places where the cap rates are too low because it's just hard to make your money there. You know, for example, there's a corridor that's between Deltona and Tampa that is just this wonderful engine right now of opportunity. So Lakeland, Florida is right in between those two. And it's a very interesting place because those people that are living there can go either direction. Not that it's that close, but they have the potential for jobs and powerhouse places where there's jobs. Tampa and Orlando are just churning out jobs.

Right, right. And do you like Port Richey, too? I mean, we were active in that market for quite a while. Tampa's too expensive.

Tampa is overpriced. So that's where the valuations are. Have gone too far. So it's. It's. You're not going to find the valuation in Tampa. There's kind of like this web effect where it's not just a corridor now, but we're starting to see the impact of this job growth and population growth kind of webbing out in that area along the corridor. There's all these, like, little things that are happening, and that corridor is getting longer. So it's going down now towards Fort Myers and those areas down there.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, we have a name for this in the business. It relates to the buyer side of the market, mostly, but it also relates to the tenant side of the market. And that is drive until you can qualify. Drive until you can qualify. Okay. So, no, that's the way it always works. Nothing new there, but, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. So we do, you know, we are looking at a wide range of markets and just trying to understand the underlying things, to find potential markets that aren't oversaturated and, again, not overvalued. And you're right.

Right.

Tampa is definitely an example of a market that's very overvalued right now.

Yeah. But it's certainly not as bad as, you know, Denver.

There are many worse than.

Tampa is one of the most overvalued right now, which might be surprising.

Yeah. And I think Austin is highly overvalued too.

Austin is very highly overvalued.

And we don't even have to get into New York and Los Angeles that are crashing.

Los Angeles, San Francisco, Boston, I mean the cap rates are. Those are the lowest cap rates in the nation.

And finally those are crashing.

They really, finally they're starting to come down. You were right.

They lasted a long time beyond the point of fundamentals. You know, I think they should have crashed three, four years ago. It's kind of amazing. This irrational exuberance can really play for a while. So yeah, it's interesting. You know, one of the other caveats that I think it's important to mention, Anna, it probably should have been the frame from which we started today. So we'll do it in reverse here. But it's the context meaning that what type of landlord do you want to be? What type of properties are your specialty? What type of properties are your sweet spot? These are the questions every investor needs to ask themselves. Because of course, if you started off the top talk today with well, we like luxury properties for upscale clientele with a net worth of 5 to 15 million dollars. The discussion and the research and what markets you would like or dislike would have been completely different than the discussion we had. So everything is context sensitive to what the investor's looking for. I mean, as I will say, you can make money in lots of parts of real estate regardless of what the market's doing. As long as you're a specialist and you know your stuff and you do, you know, you make good decisions.

Right?

But now tell us, what type of landlord do you want to be? Are these B class, C class? I think they're not A class. Maybe that's an important question for every investor.

It is an important question and we do have a couple of in the portfolio. We have a range. So we do have some new build, you know, mixed use. There's a building that's just south of of Provo in Springville, Utah. Utah has some wonderful markets. It was so hard to find a value add opportunity that we actually ended up building there because that was just the better play in that market.

And that's rare that the better play is building because the construction cost is so high.

Construction costs are so high. That's 102 unit new build class A building with commercial space down below as well as class A self storage that the temperature regulated self storage. We have that in our portfolio as well as ground up built student housing. That's graduate student housing. But I would say our bread and Butter is value add, class C and class B minus in terms of acquisition, multi family assets.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah. And so that is what drives us. And that's why, again, we're so focused on jobs and those types of things, because that really matters for our tenant base.

Okay, so, Anna, talk to us about the future, and we'll wrap up with this part of the topic here. You know, what does the future look like for rental housing? I mean, I keep moving my prediction forward. You know, I keep. Like years ago, maybe six years ago, I started saying that the next 10 years coming at the. Well, probably more than six years ago, maybe 10 years ago, actually, I was saying things like, you know, that the demographic coming at the rental housing market over the next decade are nothing short of phenomenal. And I still think that. Talk to us about some of the factors that you see there. I mean, you know, we got millennials, biggest generation ever, you know, biggest demographic cohort, saddled with huge student loan debt. They basically got a mortgage. They just didn't get a house included with their mortgage. There's a lot of factors. And interestingly, the baby boomers are renting now, and the stigma has just gone away. It used to be like you look down your nose at a renter and you think, oh, well, being a homeowner, so much better. But that seems to have really dissipated.

I agree with all of your points. Those are all things I would have brought up. You know, the millennials, part of that kind of being, maybe being shell shocked because they came of age in the recession. So 2007, they, all of their loved ones were losing their houses, and they.

Witnessed it when they were teenagers, the most impactful part of their life. You know, they might have been trying to win the high school popularity contest, and then their parents get foreclosed on and they're moving out of the neighborhood. Exactly.

So I think that a lot of people were shell shocked in that era. And then you have the student loan debt, which is astronomical, and then the baby boomers who are making different decisions. I think that the recession really had a huge impact on all of us, where people really reevaluated what is important. And many of us decided, I don't necessarily need that house. My happiness is more important. I want to travel more, I want to live more. And then we've got the sharing economy that grew out of that time frame and the technologies and the applications that people can stay in touch with each other. I think that the baby boomers used to think, I've got to stay in where My kids are for the rest of my life, because that's how it is. Well, now we can stay connected in so many different ways that we didn't have. And I feel like it's opened up a lot of opportunities. So now baby boomers are like, I can live where I want to live. I can live in an Airbnb six months out of the year and Airbnb out my house and live in different cities and visit my grandkids. And, you know, it's just really changed. I think that it really does go back to 2008, 2009, 2010, and how we all internalized and got through that. But the three things that you hit, you know, student debt, the millennials, and they're not buying houses. The rate of house buy purchasing has just tumbled and it's starting to tick up a little bit. But I don't think it's like, enough to be a trend that it's ever going to go back to where it was.

Yeah, I would agree. I think we live in a much more portable world. The sharing economy has changed people's attitudes about all of that stuff. You know, it's just people just want to be more mobile nowadays. And you can be. It's really much easier than ever to do it. And I think that's only gonna get easier. It's an interesting trend. You know, it used to be the idea of, oh, have a big estate and, you know, invite your friends over and all that kind of stuff. And now it's like, yeah, I'd rather go meet my friends somewhere in some other part of the world and, you know, rent a yacht for a week or two.

Right. And I think we're gonna see more and more of this co living going on. I think we live in very interesting times, Jason. I think it's, it's just, it's pretty exciting when you get down to it. But, but being a real estate investor is definitely a strong way to go into the future because there are, there's no shortage of renters that we're facing.

Yeah, no, I know. That's interesting. So, folks, be a landlord. It's a pretty good, pretty good deal, probably for the next ten years at least.

So be a landlord and live wherever you want to live.

Yeah, absolutely. Good, good stuff. Well, Anna, give out your website and just wrap it up for us.

Sure you can find me. I'm Anna growcapitas.com the website is gr o c a p I-t u s.com and I also teach on multifamilyu.com which is our education platform. I teach underwriting for deal analysis of multifamily so you can catch me online on monthly webinars that are free teaching people how to analyze apartments.

Anna, thanks for joining us.

All right, Jason, thank you so much for having me.

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