1236 FBF: Affordable Home Crush & Dealing with Property Managers, Part 2 of Client Case Study with Scott

Welcome to this week's edition of Flashback Friday. Your opportunity to get some good review by listening to episodes from the past that Jason has hand picked to help you today in the present and propel you into the future. Enjoy.

Welcome to the Creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You're about to learn a new slant on investing, some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world's most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine, self made multimillionaire who's actually been there and done it. He's a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who's owned properties in 11 states, had hundreds of tenants and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason's footsteps on the road to your Financial Independence Day. You really can do it. And now, here's your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.

Welcome listeners from around the world. Thank you so much for joining me on a windy day from the Windy City. Do you know what the Windy City is? Well, most people think it's Chicago. I disagree. I think it's Las Vegas. It is windy today. Beautiful, clear, not too cold or cool. Well, it's a little bit cool, just ever so slightly cool, I should say. It's in the 60s and it's gorgeous out. But it is windy. Las Vegas is the Windy City. I'm telling you, we are going to have 30 mile an hour winds today. So I love it, love it, love it, love weather phenomena. I think it's super interesting when, when the weather changes. I love it when God puts on a show and he does that with weather, he or she. Sorry, I don't want to offend any anybody. So there we go. We part two of our interview with Scott and Kelly today hearing about their client case study. Going from shopping centers to single family homes, lots and lots of them, using the 1031 tax deferred exchange income property is the most tax favored asset class in America and the most historically proven asset class in the entire world. But before we do that, you know, I've talked a lot about the inventory shortage, the lack of supply in the marketplace. We've talked about absorption rates, we've talked about, hey, why aren't there enough properties in which to invest? You know, why was the supply so limited? Well, that may seem obvious and I've talked about many factors that are influencing that. But one of them was given a name by none other than one of our meet the masters of income Property speakers and one of our multi time guests on the show, and that is real estate market researcher John Burns. He calls it the barbel, the barbell that is crushing the supply of affordable homes. And so a barbell, as the name would imply, has, well, weights on either end, right? Weighting the bar. And of course you're going to bench press this barbell or whatever and the weight is on both sides of the barbell, otherwise it would just be a dumbbell. Well, no, it's actually on two sides of a dumbbell too, but you get the idea. I'm not going to go into trying to explain this anymore. The barbell of housing demand. And I've talked about this a little bit before, but this article with some statistics I think will help you really see how formidable this is. And then I will attempt to provide a solution for you before we get to part two of our case study today. So first off, we've got the millennials. Now, the millennials, we talk a lot about these millennials. This generation, I tell you, they were the most coddled, waited on, catered to generation in world history. Right. We all know about the millennials, Gen Y. We've talked about them a million times. You're probably sick of hearing about them. I'm getting a little sick of it too. But anyway, they are finally moving in to the housing market. Yes, they are. The oldest millennial today is what that.

Years old or so this is the generation right after yours truly, a Gen Xer myself. And then I followed my generation, followed the baby boom generation and before them was the mature generation. Okay. What's sometimes known as the greatest generation. Right. And so here we have these millennials. Now, they are not moving into the housing market in any great. Compared to what percentage? Right. Because you've got their entire demographic cohort, about 80 million strong, slightly bigger than the baby boomers at about 76 million. I know these numbers vary because they're kind of guesses. You know, demographers will fudge around the edges, they'll say that, well, you know, if you're a Gen Xer, you're really this year to that year in terms of birth date. If you're a millennial, you're really this year to that year. And there's a little bit of disagreement here. There's a little bit of disagree as to the size. And hey, we've got all this undocumented workers or as Hillary Clinton calls them, workers without papers. And you know, we don't exactly know how many people we have in the country Right. Or how many are in each demographic cohort. But we do have a decent idea. So that's the number we're going with. We're going with 76 million baby boomers. We've got about 40 million, give or take Gen Xers, and we got about 80 million millennials or wires. And then we've got Generation Z. Hey, in a few years we're going to be talking about Generation Z, and then you're going to be sick of hearing about them, too. But by then, you'll be so rich from all your real estate investing that, hey, you won't even care. Okay, so we've got the millennials. Now, compared to what is always the question to ask. See, they are moving into the housing market, but not in a big way as a compared to what percentage of their overall cohort, but their demograph cohort is so large, it's massive. It's 80 million people that even if a fairly small percentage moves into the house buying market. Now, most of them are renters, or a lot of them are representing the shadow inventory. They are the live at Homers. They're living at mom's house, Living at dad's house. Hey, hopefully mom and dad are actually married, if anybody actually does that anymore. I know it's not so popular as it used to be on. And I say that's unfortunate, by the way. But whatever. Let's not go into that rabbit hole and talk about how the birth rate has been destroyed and the traditional nuclear family has been destroyed and the culture war goes on. Right, but that's another subject. So they are moving into the market a little bit, but their numbers are so large that it matters. Right. So they're finally doing family formation. They're buying houses to live in. Okay, but then at the other end of the spectrum, you've got the baby boomers. They're the other side of the barbell and they're moving down. And interestingly, and this is a new trend, and it's one that I've talked about, and I believe John actually talked about it at Meet the Masters during his speech, it is that these baby boomers, oddly, are renting. A lot of them are renting, but some aren't renting. And they're just taking advantage of the apprecia built up in their homes after the last several years, and they're cashing out and they're moving to their empty nest home. So with the two sides of this barbell, the millennials at one end, the move down baby boomers at the other End or even the maturers moving down, right? They are creating a huge demand on an already small supply of entry level housing or lower price tier housing. Now an interesting chart here, this is a chart that Burns Company put out. And this is data based on 31 markets. Interestingly, and I'm not sure why he did this, but there's always these interesting ways to slice and dice statistics. And this is why you gotta be careful. You can't just look at data. You've gotta, you've gotta use some, some reasoning with the data always right. That's what the brilliant human mind was built to do, is reason. And isn't it scary that we have so few people that are willing to do it anymore? If you've had a debate about virtually anything on social media, you know that critical thinking is all but extinct, right? Isn't that scary? Well, another rabbit hole we could go down, but we won't. So year over year, change. This chart I'm looking at shows the rapid, insane decrease in low price tier listings on the market. Okay, now he doesn't define low price tier so I'm going to make the assumption that he's doing this based on the market but you know, in relationship to that market. So the first stat is the Bay Area of California, you know that Silicon Valley. And by the way, we're having an event in Silicon Valley coming up, San Jose, March 3. Jason hartmanuniversity.com we look forward to seeing you there. Tickets have been selling briskly for that event. March 3. Jason HartmanUniversity.com In San Jose, Silicon Valley event. That's a full day. It's a full all day Saturday event, so come to that. Join us jason hartmanuniversity.com for details and tickets. So in the Bay Area, low price tier listings are down year over year by 48%.

Wow, that is scary bad in terms of lack of inventory in Denver, a market we used to recommend until it got too expensive. But hey, a lot of you listening bought properties from us in Denver years ago and you made a fortune. Congratulations, I appreciate you.

I don't know if you could hear that but you were just patting me on the back for helping you do it. Well, thank you very much. So Denver, they are down 44%. Raleigh, Durham, hey, another market we used to recommend don't have inventory there now, but many of you purchased from us in the Raleigh Durham area. The Tech triangle at the other end of the country, 35% decline. Seattle, 34% decline. We've never recommended Seattle. It's always Been too expensive. Orlando. Many of you were at our Orlando property tour a few years ago. You bought tons of properties from us in Orlando or the greater Orlando area. And low price listings in Orlando by many considered to be one of the ground zero locations for foreclosure activity, by the way, down 32% from one year ago. Minneapolis, down 31%. Los Angeles, down 29%. San Diego, down 24%. Orange county, my former hometown, along with Los Angeles and San Diego. I've lived in all three of those places. Down 24%. Jacksonville, a market we're currently active in and recommending, but are suffering from an extreme lack of inventory. Down 24%. Low price tier listings from one year ago. Phoenix, 23%. Down. Charlotte, down. We've had hundreds of you have purchased from us In Charlotte, down 23% percent. Tampa, down 22%. Portland, down 20%. Riverside. San Bernardino, down 18%. Atlanta. Hundreds of you have purchased from us In Atlanta, down 16%. Philadelphia, down 15%. Chicagoland area down 10%. Washington, D.C. down 9%. New York.

Really? Is there such a thing as a low price tier listing in New York, down 9%. And Boston, down 7%. Miami, down 6. Dallas, down 2%. Hey, you know the only market out of this survey that actually has a slight increase in low price tier listings? I wonder if you can guess. I couldn't have guessed. It's Sacramento, California, where my aunt Joan, who was one of our speakers and who's been on the show, one of our meet the master speakers, where she owns about a hundred properties, give or take, in Sacramento area. So actually a very slight increase in low price tier listings in that market. So I just thought, that's interesting. Now, what is the prescription from yours truly, your ROI director, Jason Hartman. What would he recommend you do? What would his solution to this be? Well, he doesn't have a solution. Sorry about that. Hey, I can't solve all your problems. I try, I really try to solve all your problems, but I can't solve them all. My solution is don't wait to buy real estate. Buy real estate and then wait. Get what you can get. Get while the getting is good. Inventory will probably increase a little bit as we see interest rates go up. Or at least that's my hope. I really do hope the market calms down a little bit. And I also hope, I don't regret saying that business has been fantabulous the last several years. I mean, really. Well, I don't know, really the last eight years, it's been fantastic. But I gotta tell you it's hard to operate in a low inventory market. So we would like to see inventory increase a little bit so that you would not be so disappointed when you can't buy enough properties because we know you want to buy more. And look what will happen when inventory increases. Prices will probably soften. That upward trajectory in price will probably calm down. Hey, that would be fine with me because I'm not a capital gains investor anyway. If it comes, I can spend it just as well as the next guy. But really we invest for yield and at the same time we see prices either stop increasing so much or even soften a little bit. It would be a welcome change in my opinion. We will see upward pressure on rents and that's really what we're in the game for. Yield, increasing rents, cash flow. Fine with me. Fine with me. So that is my thought. That is my prescription for you. Get as much as you can. Lock in these low rates while they last. They are going away. That ship is pulling out of port, so catch it while you can. As the ship is pulling out of port, as the train is leaving the station. Whatever metaphor you want to use, okay, just buy your properties. Buy good properties that make sense the day you buy them. Go and find those properties@jason hartman.com Click on the Properties section and we've got properties for you there. And our investment counselors will diligently help you find good properties. So join us March 3rd in San Jose. Come and meet some of our clients. We're going to have one of our lenders there to talk to you about financing. We're going to have at least one, maybe two of our local market specialists there to talk to you about properties and their management processes and team and you can meet them in person. So it's a great opportunity. Coming out to San Jose March 3rd Jason hartmanuniversity.com Of course, we've got our ice hotel trip coming up. If you want a bucket list experience, talk to us about that as well. You can reach us through any of our websites, including Jason hartman.com and let's get to part two and hear more about Scott and Kelly from Washington, D.C. and their case study on why they moved from commercial properties to residential properties for their investing portfolio. Here you go.

That's why I created this business is because I tried to do it myself. Also told the story. You may have heard it, but I'll just recap it really quickly. In 2004, I was in negotiations to sell my traditional real estate company in Irvine, California to Coldwell Banker. I Knew I was going to have a big check from the sale. I was thinking, well, you know, I'll just retire and do rental properties and not have another business, you know, at least not for a while. Just take a few years off or something. You know, I'm not. Not the kind of person that is very interested in taking time off, but I figured I'd find something to do, right. You know, certainly didn't need to work. But I wanted to buy more properties and build my portfolio and I wanted to do it nationwide because I'd been through a couple cycles in California. They were pretty severe. I thought, you know, now I'm older, wiser, more conservative. I don't want to do that again. I want to invest and diversify nationwide. And I was researching all these markets at Scott, and I was like reading like the best places to live in America books and, you know, the places rated almanac. And then I would go online and I would just spend hours. I was, you know, like, trying to digest the data on the US Census website, which is nearly impossible, by the way. There's just too much there. You know, I was just trying to figure this out, you know, what are the hot places to invest? And I'd seen it before. You know, I remember when there was the big downturn in Southern California in the 90s. I saw my clients just like abandon their houses. It was amazing. And I remember I had all these vacant properties listed when I was a traditional real estate agent for. For Re Max. You know, I saw them go to Arizona, Texas, Colorado, Georgia, you know, like places. It seemed like there was a commonality of like these few sort of states and cities they were all moving to. Right? Because that's where the opportunities were. And I thought, you know, when one. One market is down, another market is up because all those people are leaving it and bringing their money there. Right? And that's where the jobs are going, the employers do it and. And so forth. And I thought, this is. This is why you gotta diversify, you know, you gotta invest nationwide. And then I tried to actually do it myself. I just flew, you know, after doing all this research, I flew to these different markets and I mean, it was terrible. Honestly, I couldn't find anyone to help me, anyone that knew what they were doing. You know, these real estate agents I was talking to, to. They just. They didn't know anything and much less they didn't know anything about investing. Right. You know, it's like, you know, it's like when I was in Austin recently and this agent was Trying to tell me about the cap rates on these multi million dollar houses. I was looking at one for rent, it was 7, 500amonth. And, you know, I asked her what the value of the house was and she said, well, this one's worth about $4 million. And I thought, that's pretty good deal to rent that for 7,500, which you can do, you know. And I was like thinking of renting this house myself when I, when I was there a couple months ago. And she started explaining to me about the cap rates. She had no idea, Scott, how to calculate a cap rate. I mean, it was just. It's just mind boggling. It really is. And then I thought, well, I'm going to be relegated to just putting my big check from the sale of the company into, you know, the stock market. And so I went and met with all, like concurrently. I went and met with all the, you know, financial advisors in the private client group. You know, for the people that have a few bucks at Merrill lynch, ameriprise, Charles Schwab, etc. They didn't know anything either. I mean, they just said the same thing. It was like the same speech. It was the same pie charts. And none of them were wealthy. You know, like they were just talking to wealthy people all day, but they weren't, you know, they weren't wealthy. And I thought, this isn't the way to go. I love real estate. Why am I even here? You know? And so, you know, I just thought, there's got to be other people that want to do what I want to do. And sure enough, there you are. There's a lot of people like you.

Yeah. Yeah. And it creates great value for people like me. I'm very appreciative that I even have the opportunity to do this.

Yeah.

My father was invested in real estate starting back in the 80s. And he never was really able to make it work in residential. Just a hard way to earn income.

He was in commercial real estate then, right?

He went into commercial, he went into the warehouses and other stuff.

Okay. Like industrial type properties. But he tried it in residential. And you said he was never able to make it work, right?

Nope, he was never able to make it work.

Tell us, what do you mean by that?

He had a hard time identifying properties to begin with. This was before the Internet. He had a hard time of knowing what to charge for rent. It cost him a lot in fees just to get a standard lease together. And then he didn't have a good way to check people's credit. And so he ended up leasing to people who didn't have very good credit, and they were actually pretty good at using the court system. So when he tried to get them evicted, they knew that they couldn't be evicted. At least in the state of Maryland, they couldn't be evicted during the winter months.

Right.

So they could just quit paying the rent in October. And by the time you get them into court, it's already December.

Yeah.

And the judge will say, well, I'm not going to throw a family out in the cold.

Right.

Let's talk again in April, right around Christmas.

Oh, my God.

So now these guys just got October, November, they get seven months of free rent.

Yeah, yeah.

And guess what? The next year they can do it, too.

Yeah, yeah. They know how to play the game. In any of these liberal, you know, jurisdictions, you don't want to be a landlord, folks that are just not landlord friendly. We have a client years ago, I remember he used to get up at our meetings. He did it a few times. Times. And he talked about how he owned a Property in Washington, D.C. you know, had rented it out and then the people wouldn't pay and he tried to evict them. And there was this rule that this law that you can't evict someone whenever there's more than like a certain percentage chance of rain or snow. And that was like every day practically. You know, you'd. And you'd have to pay and schedule the sheriff each time to go and do the eviction. And it just got, you know, postponed and postponed and they just kept living there for free. It was unbelievable, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

Yeah. That's how it is out here.

That doesn't work. Yeah, that doesn't work.

And yet through your company, I'm able to go out and purchase, you know, 12 homes in Memphis over just a few days or over a few months. And most of them I've never even seen. And they're able to cash flow. Well, the checks just arrive and I speak to the property managers if I want to, but. But most of the time I don't.

Right.

It just works out. It's amazing.

I'm glad you're amazed and happy with your experience. Tell us about the property management. You know, the experiences with property managers are most certainly mixed. Okay. You know, some are good, some are bad. It depends on the manager. That also depends on the circumstances. Luck, I think, plays a part in everything in life. What are your experiences with our property managers? And, you know, do you have any tips for the list listeners?

I'VE had a lot of experience in Memphis alone. I've worked with four different property management companies. I will say that some providers are better at providing homes and some providers have better property management. When you're considering a purchase, you want to look at the home itself and make sure it's a wise decision. And you can always change management down the line. We have found the property manager that we prefer in Memphis, mainly because they keep in touch with us a lot and let us know what's going on. Other ones just didn't respond much by the phone or the checks. Rent checks would arrive late. In some cases, you know, the rent checks were missed for an entire month and we had to go back and forth for months to find out what happened. That's no good. We have a property manager where, you know, given the prospectus on the property, when we purchased it, there was a high rent and a low rent. And after purchase they wound up renting it out at the low rent, which was a little bit disappointing. But they also leased it out for two years. Well, when that lease was over, we asked them to please raise the rent and that's not what happened. Instead they leased it out for another two years, still at that low rent.

So they just ignored your instructions?

They completely ignored our instructions, yeah.

Unbelievable. Unbelievable.

That particular property is coming up in September for a renewal and so we're trying to get on top of it. We're seven months early here, notifying them and saying, hey, we really need to bring this up on rent. You know, according to the websites, it should be rented for about 1550amonth, but it's being rented out for 1295, so that's about $250 a month that we're missing out on. We'd like the rent to be raised quite significantly. Well, we were just sent back a reply. It's just a 40 form reply that we've seen many times now, unfortunately. That said that they'll try to get the rent raised by 75 bucks, but they might only be able to get 50 and if the tenant refuses, maybe they won't be able to get that at all.

Wow. Yeah.

Well, I don't know. Jason, do you think I should change to another property manager?

Yeah, I think so. That sounds like it. The interesting thing is though, you know, and I complain a lot about property managers and local markets specialists when they're not doing their job. I mean, Scott, you've heard me on the show and boy, I got an episode coming up for you too that we've recorded with Another client of ours. What's interesting, you know that you always have to keep in perspective and I think you're pretty good at doing this. Even though you may have a bunch of complaints and you have things go wrong, the investment can actually still be a pretty darn good deal at the end of the day. Can it?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

You know, there'll be some good surprises and there'll be some bad surprises, but once you have a few investments, they tend to even out and you tend to do pretty good on average. If you see chronic problems like repairs are just recurring and at high expense, then it might be time to switch property management. But if one isolated incident happens, you know, I would try to work it out before I'd switch it up.

Yeah, makes sense, makes sense. Tell us about like your overall, overall portfolio and how that's working out. You know, do you have any metrics you want to share or anything like that?

Well, we really set out to get an 8% cap return on our portfolio.

Spoken like a true commercial real estate guy. Cap rate. Yeah. Okay.

I mean we're trying to replace a certain investment with another investment and get comparable cap rate or a better cap rate. Our target was 8% and it's been performing at almost precisely 8%. But once you take financing into account, it does a little better than 9%. So we get very good returns on our investments and it's very regular. We don't really worry about how much money we're going to make this month. We know that it's going to be pretty good.

Yeah, yeah. Good stuff, good stuff. Have you considered self management?

That's what I'm trying to get away from.

Right, right. Well no, that's, that's why I asked you that because you self manage the shopping centers. But you know, I, I tell you, I have rented, I think seven commercial properties as a tenant, you know, for my real estate offices in Orange County. And man, you know, that is just a high maintenance deal in terms of the management. In many of my properties I would see or communicate with the management every business day. I mean that's far different than like now, for example. I mean I, you know, I own lots of investment properties, but I ren the high rise condo in which I live and I hardly ever communicate with my landlord. He self manages it. I'll send him an email every three months maybe. I mean, there's almost no communication between us. So self management in residential is a lot different than with a shopping center. Don't you agree?

You know, I don't know. With Office space. It tends to be very management intensive.

Oh yeah, I agree with a retail.

Shopping center, not so much. A shop owner just wants to be able to be open and be in business and they don't want to see you. Their toilets, their interior is all owned by them. They manage the maintenance of the windows and doors and they pay their own utilities. So it's really not that bad. The problems can be, you know, on the outside the building. If someone comes and dumps a pile of debris in the parking lot, that can be an issue. I personally have security issues at the shopping center and so I actually go there personally to deal with that at all hours of the night.

Oh my God. Wow. I can see why you don't want to self manage if that's your background.

Well, part of what I'm trying to do here is get away from.

Yeah, right.

A work life situation where I have to answer the phone when it rings.

Okay.

I would rather detach.

Fair enough. I totally understand. So any tips on managing your managers that you want to share with listeners?

Basically, you have to remain active and remain interested. You don't have to be going crazy over it all the time. You don't have to worry about it. But do read the emails, do read the reports when they come, and if you have questions, call and ask and get answers. You may want to keep track of where repairs are happening a lot because often you will find that the same thing will get repaired over and over. And that's something as an owner you can identify and make sure the property manager becomes aware of so that next time the repair happens it's, you know, final. Or maybe you can get reimbursed for some of those repairs if they weren't in fact successful repairs.

Right.

And just pay attention. There's some signs of bad management if your rent check doesn't show up. If the reports don't show up, I would be concerned and I would take action on that. Call them up and find out what's going on. You know, be active. Yeah, but you don't have to sweat it.

Right.

You don't to have, have to be fearful as long as things are going well, you know, do something else with your time.

Yeah, yeah, right. I, I agree, I agree. What are you doing with your time other than, other than your properties or, you know, I mean, you've still in the shopping center business obviously, so you're, you've got to do that. That's very active. And then you know, you've got to do some management of your managers on Your single family home portfolio. But just out of curiosity, what else are you doing? Enjoying life, hopefully.

I am enjoying life.

Yeah.

Just so happens that Valentine's Day is tomorrow and my wife and I are going to fly to Cancun and take some time off. Yeah.

Awesome.

But other than that, you know, I'm on a quest for the best real estate investment I can find. Right now I'm just looking at all different opportunities, all different style of investing. And the worst thing about it is I keep finding great investments. So much to do. So keep market is so good right now.

It keeps you tempted when you keep finding these great deals, you can't refuse.

I know.

Yeah. Good stuff. Good stuff.

I want to try to find the best opportunity, but, you know, there's so many good ones that come up, I just, I want to get them all.

Yeah. I can't. It's like being a kid in a candy store. I totally get it. I totally get it. I feel the same way a lot of times. Totally understand. Well, good stuff. Scott, thank you so much for sharing your story and really just appreciate this and, you know, just. Anything you want to say in closing before we wrap it up?

I just want to say, Jason, I said this to you in Phoenix and I really mean it. I really appreciate that you created Platinum Properties. It's improved my life, the life of my family, and as far as I expect, you know, it will continue to do so for years to come. I'm just really appreciative of the impact that this has had and will continue to have on my life. And so I just want to thank you for what you do.

Well, thank you, Scott. That's so nice of you to say that and thank you. You, we should be thanking you for being our customer. So we, we appreciate you being a client and you know, of course appreciate your business and we'll always help you any way we can. So. And then also thank you so much for sharing your experience on the show. Really, really great. Every listener always says they love to hear the client case studies. So listeners, if you're out there and you're listening to this and you're a client of ours, hey, come on the show. We'd love to hear from you. And Scott, thank you so much. And say hi to Kelly for me.

I sure will. Thank you. Jason.

Hey, I hope you'll join me in San Jose on March 3rd as we host our Jason Hartman University event. Now, this event is for the real, practical, hands on interactive education on income property investing, where you will learn how to actually do the math, how to evaluate the deals. We will go in depth into this subject of how to analyze a real estate deal. And once we do that, we'll talk about how to build a portfolio, how to properly structure a portfolio, how to diversify it, how to sequence your mortgage financing. And it is a fun event. We do some gamification. You'll meet a lot of people because you'll be working with the people in the class. And it's one day event. You can check it out at Jason Hartman university.com Jason Hartmanuniversity.com We've been doing this event for about three or four years and people absolutely love it. We've done it in San Diego, in Salt Lake City, now we're doing it in San Jose. We've done it other places as well. I just can't remember where offhand. But it's a great event and we try to do it about once a year. Last year we did it in Oklahoma City. This time we will be in San Jose. Silicon Valley on March 3rd jasonhartmanuniversity.com jasonhartmanuniversity dot com get your tickets today and we'll look forward to seeing you in Silicon Valley on March 3.

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