1253: Mother of All Bubbles? & Best Cities for Business Growth by Anita Campbell, BizSugar, Small Business Trends & Visual Marketing

What I've learned is you like to mention be area agnostic is one of your commandments. And that I love that I like to look at this as also be when it comes to real estate investing. Be age agnostic.

Who cares what age you are?

You can start doing this at 19 like you did. You could start doing this in 20s. You can start doing it in your 50s. I started in my 50s.

Welcome to the Creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You're about to learn a new slide plant on investing some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world's most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine, self made multimillionaire who's actually been there and done it. He's a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who's owned properties in 11 states, had hundreds of tenants and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason's footsteps on the road to your Financial Independence Day. You really can do it. And now here's your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.

Welcome to episode 1253. 1253. And today we are going to talk about the best cities for growth, specifically business growth. But when businesses grow, the real estate market flourishes. We all know that those two things are closely, closely, closely related. And you know, speaking of things that are closely related over here, we have been talking a lot lately about things that are closely related. For example, people have always asked, and I have always pondered, what is the connection between the real estate market and, and the stock market? That is a good question. What is the connection between the stock market and the overall economy? What is the question between the real estate market and the overall economy? Right. All these things are, of course connected. What is the connection between interest rates and the rental market versus the for sale real estate market? And by the way, that is such a misnomer when people talk about the real estate market. No, not because of what you probably think I'm going to say, which is of course one of the many misnomers about how all real estate is local and you should be area agnostic is one of the commandments, the ten commandments of successful investing. Not about that, though. About how they consider the real estate market to be good when it's a seller's market and bad when it's a buyer's market. And nobody ever talks in these sort of casual phrases. How's the real estate market? For example, they don't talk about the rental market. What are the rents doing? Are rents strengthening? Are they softening? Are security deposits strong and high? Meaning the landlord is in the catbird seat, the driver's seat, because there's a lot of demand from tenants versus the other side of it, where landlords have to cut deals because the tenants just aren't out there. Right. The supply of properties is very large. The supply of rental properties and the number of tenants, the supply of tenants is very low in relation. Now, that's not the case right now. But this is the real estate market, right? It's more than just the for sale market. It's also the income side of the market, the rental market. And whether it's a tenant's market or a landlord's market, whether it's a buyer's market or a seller's market. But speaking of relations, I was just looking at an interesting visual graph that I thought I would share with you. There's, of course, a lot of talk the past several years about cryptocurrencies. And I believe the first time we ever mentioned the word bitcoin was at our Meet the Masters. And I want to say that was in 2011. I remember being on stage in Irvine, California, and I started to talk about bitcoin, and I remember someone in the audience said, what's bitcoin?

Oh, my, how the world has changed. And as you may know, I host another podcast show, yes, another one called the Cryptocast, which is about cryptocurrencies. And I have to say, as you've probably remember me saying, I am not a believer. I'm not a big believer in cryptocurrencies. I would love to be wrong about this, but as I've always said, the powers that be, the governments, the central banks, they are so powerful. And their biggest product, the biggest product of any government or central bank is its currency, that is its widget itself. It is their product. And by golly, just like the producer of any product. Hey, none of us love competition right now. The competition makes us good, right? We get on our game, we pay attention, we do a better job with competition. So it's good for the overall market. But if you ask anybody in business, would you rather have competition or not have competition? They'd of course say, well, I'd rather not have competition, because then it'd be an open playing field, like a big disgusting tech company who has duopoly. Not quite a monopoly, but a duopoly. And thank you, government. They're finally, finally talking about what I've been saying. For years. They gotta bust these big tech companies up, these big platforms. They're too abusive. They are abusing their power, and it's time for them to have a little more competition. Thank you very much. Okay, so the size of these different markets in terms of dollar size. Right. The size of these markets, it's interesting to look at. And the question of everything is always compared to what? Well, you've been hearing a lot of people talk about how there is a bubble in this, a bubble in that, or even they'll say the everything bubble, which arguably, I might agree with that. I think we are in a bit of an everything bubble. Okay. Now, I think the safest part of that bubble is what we recommend. Good, solid, simple rental properties in linear markets. Not too exciting, not too sexy. But the returns, very, very nice. Very nice. All of these crazy, sexy, exciting asset classes. On the real estate side, the cyclical markets, or even the hybrid markets, seeing some signs of trouble for sure. But stock market, most people say we're going to see some signs of trouble. Like the elevator business, it has its ups and downs, right? It has its ups and downs. By the way, next time you see a guy repairing an elevator, ask him how the elevator business is, and he better respond with, what has its ups and downs? I did that once, and that's exactly what the guy said. And we both laughed. It was pretty funny. Okay, so before I go into this comparison, and before we get to our guest today, I just wanted to mention one more thing. As I was talking about this and the competition. The biggest products of governments and central banks is their fiat currency, right? Have you seen the new series that I have been watching lately? I've been looking for a new series to waste time on, to become a couch potato, a sofa spud. And I found it. I found it just last week. It's called Money Heist. And, you know, I watched like one episode as they broke into the central bank of Spain. No, they're not the central bank. The mint. The Spanish mint. It's a Spanish series and it's on Netflix. They broke in and, you know, took some hostages, the bad guys. And I thought they were just going to steal the money. Nah, that's not what they did. And this is when I decided I was going to keep watching because they didn't just steal the money. I thought they'd just come in and take the money that was there in the safe, right? Nope, nope, they didn't do that. They stayed there. And I don't want to be a spoiler, so I'm not going to tell you what happened yet, but, you know, for those who didn't see the show, they stayed there and they turned on the presses and they started printing money. Yes. And then I thought, I gotta watch this show because they are making a statement, a statement about governments and central banks, which they did. The bad guys. And, you know, it's kind of funny the way these producers of these shows, they're. They're so good at making us. Sometimes you got to catch yourself. Hey, look, you do it too. Sometimes you're actually rooting for the bad guy, not the good guys. Right. And sometimes they make it hard to tell who's the bad guy and who's the good guy. You know, as the old saying goes, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Right? That's not always true, but sometimes it is true. Right. So they do muddy the waters and make that a little confusing. So check out that show. I think you'll. You'll be amused.

It's.

It's pretty interesting how they. They decide to stay in the mint instead of taking the money and running as. As the saying goes, they stay in the mint and turn on the presses, and they're making money, they're printing money. And I'm thinking that's exactly what governments and central banks do. They just create it out of thin air. And they kind of purport to be sort of the good guys, but they're really not too good. You know, they obviously hurt people. But, hey, so do governments and central banks, right? So, yeah, it's complicated. Right? It's complicated. Okay, the visualization here. Then we'll get to our guest. So comparing the size of these different asset classes. Okay, the cryptocurrency market is huge. It's huge. But compared to what? It's really a drop in the bucket. It's $120 billion. The gold market cap of all the gold in the world, $7.8 trillion. Trillion with a T, not billion with a B. Like the cryptocurrency market, the stock market. I'm going to round off here for speed, $78 trillion. All the money, what they call broad money in the world, okay, $96 trillion. And then physical money, the narrow money, that's the cash, right? $43 trillion. The entire debt of planet Earth. The amount of global debt. Now the thing. Okay, so let me see, what does this say here? The largest single type of market is the debt market, which consists of everything from national debt, municipal bonds, because a bond is a Debt, mortgages and student loans. So I guess that doesn't include credit card debt, other consumer debt, but it's definitely got the biggest categories in there, right? So that's $184 trillion. Trillion with a T. Of course, we're all into the trillions now. And compare it to the U.S. part of that debt, right? The global debt, $184 trillion. The U.S. national debt, just over $21 trillion. Now, how much is real estate worth? Right, the vast majority of the value of global. The global real estate market is in the form of houses and apartments. Commercial properties and farms are about 25% of that. Okay? So they're a smaller amount because there are obviously more houses and apartments than there are commercial properties and farms. Okay? Both in value and in number. In broad number, right? So total amount of real estate, $217 trillion. So the real estate value of the planet exceeds the debt of the planet only by a small margin, though. 184 trillion to 217 trillion. The residential real estate market is 162 trillion. The commercial real estate market, 29 trillion. And agricultural or farm farmland, 26 trillion. Now, the biggest bubble of them all, and we've quoted various numbers on this over the years, is the market for what? You know what I'm gonna say, folks? You know what I'm gonna say? What do I call it? The thing about the thing. It's the thing about the thing market. The market that is the thing about the thing is the derivative market. That is $532 trillion, okay? These are the financial securities with a value. The value of them is reliant on or derived from an underlying asset or a series of assets. It's the thing about the thing. That's a Jason Hartman quote right there, right? It's simply a contract between parties that values the asset based on. How do you explain it? It's the thing about the thing that's the best way to explain it, okay? Because it's contract. That's value is derived from something underlying it. Now here's when this gets really, really dangerous. The derivative market is because it's not only the thing about the thing, right? It's the thing about a thing about a thing about a thing about a thing about a thing about a thing, right? When you have derivative on top of derivative on top of derivative, and you've got to really dig down before you get to some actual non theoretical, non paper or digital asset, okay? Something that's real, right?

Knock on wood, it's real, right? Remember, I had a guest on many years ago. And for you new, newer listeners, go back and listen to the last 1251 shows or whatever it is. And he said something great. I remember him sitting in our office. He was sitting in my office. You know, I used to have the guests come into the office, don't do that much anymore. And he was sitting there across the desk from me, and he said, jason, I believe that all wealth comes from the ground. All wealth comes from the earth, the ground. Right. And you know, if you think about that, that is in a way, very true. Now, really, I like George Gilder, his explanation. And he talked about that at our last meet the Masters conference when he spoke on stage. And he. Well, let me go with the other guy first. So the other guest, whose name I do not recall offhand, but many years ago, said that all wealth comes from the ground. Right. So if you think about it, all the food essentially comes from the ground. All the precious metals come from the ground, all the minerals. Right. The real estate is the ground. Right. So that's a real tangible asset. Right. Those are real tangible assets. The financial products or derivatives are all these airy fairy things. They're not real per se. Okay. But then to contrast that concept, which. They're both true. They can both be true. George Gilder talks about how the earth basically has all the same resources it had during the Stone Age. Right. The same things are here, but it's only what the human mind did with those things that created the incredible modernity which we enjoy today. Right. All of these conveniences and all of this incredible wealth is created out of people's thoughts. It is their thoughts that created all that wealth and all that abundance and all that convenience that we all enjoy. So something to think about. All right, we better hurry and get to our guest and let's talk about the growth cities. Here we go.

It's my pleasure to welcome Anita Campbell. She is founder and publisher of Small Business Trends in Online community, reaching over 2 million small business owners monthly. She is founder of Small Business Book, aw Small Business Influencer Awards and Biz Sugar. She's an internationally renowned small business expert and she's author of visual marketing 99 proven ways for Small Businesses to Market With Images and Design. And today we are going to talk about her recent rankings of the best cities for Business for small business. And this will interplay a lot with radio real estate investments. So let's dive in. Anita, welcome. How are you?

I'm doing great. Thanks for having me.

Good. And you're coming to Us from the beautiful Naples, Florida. Is that correct?

That's correct. I love it here. Paradise.

It's absolutely great place. I love that city. So let's talk about your recent rankings. One of the other interesting things I want to get into is rankings not just of the cities that everyone knows about and thinks about, but also some of the rural areas that have a pretty robust entrepreneurial scene. You know, nowadays technology is changing everything, so that is possible, unlike it was in the past. Tell us a little bit about these rankings.

Yes. So we did our own proprietary rankings of the best cities, and we did five different rankings. We did them for women entrepreneurs, for minority entrepreneurs, for young entrepreneurs, or, you know, you might call them millennials. We did them for small businesses in general that are under.

Entrepreneurs, and then we also did it for serial entrepreneurs. So in other words, entrepreneurs who had started at least three businesses. Some fascinating results. Being from Florida, I was just blown away to see how well Miami ranked in quite a few different areas. It was number one for women entrepreneurs, number one for minority entrepreneurs. It was also number one for small businesses. So in other words, those with under 50 employees. Employees. And then it also ranked number two for serial entrepreneurs. So how's that? I mean, that was like the most.

That is quite surprising, especially since I. I try to stay away from Miami whenever possible.

Yeah. And interesting. You know, I can certainly see the minority rankings. Maybe a little surprised about the women rankings. What were the other ones? How did the serial entrepreneurs do in Miami?

Number two, huh?

Yeah. Surprising. Okay.

Small businesses in general, they were number one.

Yeah. Okay, good, good. So I'm curious, how do you know this? I mean, what do you call. I guess, define entrepreneur, Right? Is it someone with a little food stand? Is it a tech entrepreneur? I mean, you know, obviously there's quite a range. Define that a little bit for us and how. You know what the methodology is.

So really, it. It is a very broad definition of anyone who starts and business. So really, that's. That could cover. Well, we know in the United states there are 30 million that fall into that definition. So it's very broad by design to cover them. So in other words, you're not working for a paycheck is the idea. You're not working for someone else and pulling in a paycheck. This could be anything from a solo entrepreneur by himself or herself or, you know, up to the 50 employees. So it's covering a pretty good range there. I think what's exciting about it is it shows how people really like to be independent. They want to go Out. They want some freedom. They want to start their own business. This is a great country where you can do that.

Yeah. Okay. How would you rank serial entrepreneurs, though? I don't know how you would rank a city on G. Okay, I'm starting my third company. What's the best city? For me, that's a really kind of a surprising one, I would think that'd be very hard to determine, really.

Well, we had the benefit of, first of all, U.S. census data. You know, the U.S. census does various tracking of businesses, and they do something every few years called an economic census, first of all, which you're actually required to fill out as a business owner. But also the Kaufman foundation does something called the. I believe it's called the Entrepreneur Survey, and they actually work with other data and they marry it up with the census data. And so we get a really good picture of entrepreneurs. And so what we did in our publication is we hired a professional statistician and we said, let's take a look at this data. Now, we didn't just list, like, pure numbers of entrepreneurs, because if you do that, then you're always going to have the biggest cities are always going to win. You know, New York City, Los Angeles. I mean, they're always going to be at the top. What we said instead was we're going to look at these cities and we're going to see what percent of the population in those areas fall in the definition of entrepreneurs. And so that's how we did it. We said these cities have a higher concentration of entrepreneurs of certain types, whether it's women, minority, whatever, versus other cities. So that's why, even though, for example, the city of Houston is a very large city, I forget it's maybe the fifth largest city in the US And I think it only appears on here once or twice in the rankings. It does not dominate the rankings at all. So really think about that. You know, we say Miami is an entrepreneurial city. It's a friendly city to small businesses. Why? Because there's just a higher proportion of business owners in that area. And I think that's pretty exciting. And so that's how we did it. And we had this statistician crunch the numbers, and she came up with these rankings for us. And that's why you see cities such as Raleigh being on here. Portland was in quite a number of rankings because Portland is, you know, it attracts a certain entrepreneurial population.

Portland, the place where young people go to retire.

Right.

And it prides itself on being weird. So it's a very different city.

Yeah, I think, I think a lot of young people in Portland need to get a job.

Okay, so what does this tell us? Well, let's talk about the rural thing for a minute. That's pretty interesting. You know, maybe the first time in history it's really been possible to do anything significant in the entrepreneurial world from a rural location. What places are thriving there?

So we're seeing some real concentrations of certain types of businesses. For example, in the Appalachian area there are quite a few, few artisanal food businesses, startups. And so in various regions you see those. You also see areas where that tend to attract a lot of artisans and craftspeople. You know, there's a huge, I would say, maker culture out there of inventors, but there's also this handmade movement, this crafter movement. That's why, you know, Etsy is huge, but that's also why Amazon got in it with Amazon Handmade.

And the Amish communities have been doing that.

Amish communities, yeah, yeah. And there are also quite a few areas that attract significant tourism. And you know, a lot of the providers in, you know, the hospitality and restaurant and other businesses are small businesses and entrepreneurs in these tourist heavy areas. So you see a lot of that, I mean, even in Florida, where we are, especially on my coast here in Naples, because there's a lot of building and there is thriving new construction and so on. While those home builders may mostly be larger, think of the long tail that follow along behind them of self employed people. Everything from, you know, the guy who comes in and puts woodwork and trim in new houses to, you know, people who lay floors to interior designers, to, you know, the real cultures themselves. You know, all very small businesses. So you see these concentrations in areas that aren't necessarily the very large metropolitan areas.

Yeah, very interesting, very interesting. What does this tell us about the economies of these places? I mean, at first glance one might say, okay, well you know, these are the hot places for entrepreneurs. So that must be where all the money is going to. It must be where I should go and buy up properties. I don't know that that's necessarily true on its face, is it? I mean, it might say, well, these places are, you know, less stable, they might be more innovative because they're trying new things. I mean, that's the very definition of an entrepreneur is a risk taker, right? I don't know. You know, just kind of. Let's tease that out a little bit.

Well, they do tend to have a wide range of, let's say average annual salary for the Metropolitan. So another thing you get from the US Census is you get a really good picture of, you know, what's the average salary. There's even a website that. I have nothing to do with this website, but they pull in certain information. It's called datausa IO, and it kind of slices and dices a lot of this different information. You can, you can go on there and see, like, what is the annual average annual salary or the median salary for that area of people in that area. And so to your point, it does not follow that just because a city is large or that, you know, they ranked well for entrepreneurs, that they have the highest, you know, average annual salaries. Not at all. I mean, you'll find high ones, but you'll find mid to lower range as well. I think it's more a matter of, you know, is the environment in that city friendly to entrepreneurs? You know, it's. Is the state and local government friendly to entrepreneurs and doesn't, you know, have a lot of heavy regulation and make it expensive for, you know, entrepreneurs to be in business? Do they provide, you know, support and assistance when needed for entrepreneurs? You know, those are very important things. I think you also find, you know, places where taxes are low. You find that in Florida because there is no, you know, income tax, no state income tax, you know, tends to attract those people who are, you know, watching those numbers that make up their profit and so on. So they're not only looking for the opportunity, they're looking for the environment that is friendly toward them.

Yeah, no question about it. California is doing a great job and so is New York of chasing people out of the states.

It's very true. And I, you know, one of the questions that I have, but only time will answer this question, is this. Some of the cities that rank well are like San Francisco, but, you know, there's a lag there and I'm.

There's a big lag.

If you come back in a year or two, we're going to see these same rankings because you just wonder if the opportunity can possibly be sustained in these areas that are undergoing so many challenges right now with the homeless and, and other things. And, and I gotta believe it's affecting their economies. So you may start to see entrepreneurs that just decide, well, hey, you know, maybe Miami is a better place for me.

Yeah, yeah. Well, then Miami's got its own share of problems. But it is amazing how inconsistent really it is between cost of living and quality of life. I mean, that is amazing to me. You know, when I left California back in 2011. I was just stunned. I mean, my mortgage payment was about $11,000 a month in Orange County, California, all in. And I moved to Arizona and I rented a gorgeous place for $3,600 a month. It was better. My life was just better in almost every way. Taxes lower. I mean that, you know, you cross the state line, your taxes go down. State taxes by 69% approximately. It's just an amazing difference. How quality of life does not directly relate to cost of living.

Cost of living is a very important thing in the lives of entrepreneurs, as I'm sure you can imagine. You know, especially the younger and the more startup oriented you are in a small business, you want to keep those expenses very, very low. So you're going to be looking for the places where you can have a low cost of living and that could make the difference between your business being able to survive or not.

You know, I think that's one of the things that really contributed to the dramatic growth of Austin over the past couple of decades. But Austin has become pretty expensive and seriously overcrowded if you ask me. Talk about Austin at all. Have you thought or addressed that very much because that's, you know, known as a, as like the San Francisco of, of the middle of the country, right?

It, it is. And, and it's, it's interesting that you mentioned that. I attended the. There's a company called Zoho and they have up to now been headquartered in Pleasanton, California, which is, you know, the Silicon Valley area, of course, for anyone who doesn't recognize the name of the city. But in any event, they are moving their headquarters to Austin, Texas and they've mentioned a variety of financial reasons, even though they own their own building in Pleasanton. And they told me they actually located in Pleasanton because it was less expensive than downtown San Francisco when they bought their building, which, you know, I don't know how, when it was 15 years ago or something like that, but, but now they're moving to Austin because what they found was when they went out to hire people, they found a lot of the people they wanted to hire wanted to be in the Austin area. They like Texas. And so now they're going to be moving their entire headquarters from this company. And they're actually quite a sizable company. They have a lot of people worldwide, but this will be their US headquarters. So I think it's trendy now. Now what happens in you 10 years? You know, they, they could have a variety of issues going on in, in Austin, I don't know. But right now it's attracting a lot of people. You know, I know it's a trendy place for entrepreneurial conferences and so on to be held right now. I mean, it's, you know, and certainly I think it's less expensive, it's easier to get to than, you know, for a lot of people in the US to have to travel to one coast or the other, you know, so. So who knows what will happen with Austin.

Interesting. We shall see. What other insights do you want to share with our audience? Doesn't necessarily need to be about this directly, but just anything in your different research and such.

Well, I'd like to talk about the movement to 15, the $15 an hour minimum wage there being this movement on. And you know, it tends to affect small businesses that are in retail, that are in restaurants. You know, in businesses, you know, you tend to bring on people that you have to staff your business with certain people and maybe you're bringing on new people. And so you're, you know, they're relatively new in the labor market. You don't have a lot to spend. And I think those small businesses will be the hardest hit by a $15 an hour minimum wage. We're already seeing some backlash there. And I'm wondering a lot of that is coming, like from west coast cities. I wonder what's going to happen as far as these rankings in a few years as these minimum wage laws take hold and are they really going to drive these entrepreneurs and small businesses out of those areas? They just may not be able to afford to start a business or be in business in those areas.

Well, and of course, now we have this goal to make the federal minimum wage $15 an hour. I call it minimum wage, maximum unemployment. Unemployment, because that's exactly what will happen. And it's amazing. These policies that claim to help certain groups of people absolutely hurt them. Like, why does the government need to get involved in a transaction where somebody wants to work and somebody wants to hire? Why does the government need to get in the middle of that? I just don't understand it. But it is the way it is. I mean, certainly I remember last time I was in Seattle, right on the restaurant check. It has a space for the gratuity, but above that, the required amount is a. They'll give it different names, but it's basically a fee where they've increased the price, added a percentage to all of the checks to cover the increased cost of the higher minimum wage. If that doesn't have a chilling effect on business, I mean, it has to. Right. And Remember, this is not ever a conversation just about minimum wage. Minimum wage creates inflation because every other wage category above it, you know, if you're paying, if you don't have any minimum wage employees, for example, and say, you know, your least expensive person is $20 an hour, well, the minimum wage is in your given state, maybe 10. Right. So they're not on minimum wage, but when the minimum wage goes up, they instantly look at that delta between their pay and the minimum wage, and they think, gosh, I shouldn't be anywhere near minimum wage. I was getting double that before. Now I should be $30 an hour. I should still be double the minimum wage. Right. Is the way people think about that. And it just trickles right up. You know, it just trickles right up the ladder. And it's interesting, but again, like you said about San Francisco, there's a lag time, right?

There is, and we shall see. I mean, in two years, these kinds of rankings could look very different depending on what occurs. Like with movement toward 15 and other things. There are other movements that are not as well known out there, but, you know, there's more and more business licensing taking place, and that really begins to affect things. I don't know if you're familiar with the. I think it's called the Institute for Justice. And they follow these licensing requirements, and then they bring suits to try to eliminate them when there's no good business reason or societal reason to protect the public, for example, for having business licenses. So you might have heard about how hair braiders, African American women who braid hair, have been required to get, like, full barber and beautician licenses and go through two years of schooling and all. They're not coloring hair. They're not doing any. They're just merely braiding hair. And so they've been very successful in the courts to eliminate those kinds of unnecessary licensing requirements.

I mean, while we're at it, why not just require that parents get a license to braid their daughter's hair? I mean, you know.

That really kind of. If you think about it, though, we have all this licensure in every part of society, yet maybe the one place we should have it is parenting.

Good observation.

You know, you have to go through a lot of hassles and jump a lot of hurdles to adopt a kid. How about some hurdles just to have your own? You know, sometimes I really wonder if. If that shouldn't be the case. But anyway, that's another discussion. You know, Milton Friedman, of course, wrote a lot about the concept of licensure and whether or not it's good or bad. And there's some really good arguments on, on the side that you mentioned. So. Yeah, good. Good point. Very interesting. Interesting. Anything else? Just wrap it up for us, the very interesting discussion.

No, just, you know, we'll love to come out with the rankings of the smaller areas as we do those. We're actually going to be doing those a little bit later this year and I think those will be very interesting. So we're going to stay with. Nope, we've decided if it's under 50,000, like a statistical area. Under 50,000. And we'll see.

In the population, you mean?

Yes, in population. And so we'll, we'll start to see identify more of these pockets of entrepreneurial activity because I think that that could be very interesting.

Yeah, the micro pockets, if you will. Yeah, that'll be fascinating. Can't wait to hear more about it. Keep in touch and thanks for joining us. Oh, Anita, give out your website, Visit.

Us@Smallbiztrends.Com that's the URL. It's Small Biz B I Z Trends with an S.com and we've got the rankings there and we've got at all kinds of small business information. We've been publishing for 15 years and that's all we cover is about entrepreneurs and small businesses.

Anita Campbell, thanks for joining us.

Thank you.

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